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  • Pokemon Reborn E18.4- The Level Cap: a Precautionary Fable


    andracass

    Hi! Me again.
    So, as many of you noticed, the last post I made (featuring the lovable Meech) was actually just a cleverly disguised teaser for the level cap increasing. This post is going to be a bit more about the level cap itself, why increasing it can make things annoying for anyone actually trying to level up past 100, and probably some nerd stuff on top of that.

     

    First: the level cap. 
    Changing the level cap is incredibly easy.

    In the game files, there's this single line of code:

    image.png.5457570e2bf8d4864e72186a81ecc8e2.png 

    Increasing that number increases the maximum level. It's really that uncomplicated. You could even increase the level cap to 1,000,000,000,000 if you want to, and it works!

    ...in theory.

    Changing the level cap itself doesn't affect anything in-game since it's, effectively, just a number. The problems with an infinite level cap start to emerge when you have an actual pokemon try to reach it.

    Which brings us back to our dear friend Meech.

    Instead of explaining this, I'll just show you what happens in game when Meech starts to become Too Stronk (volume warning!):

    You can see in the video that Meech is now a level 950,095.

    You can also see in the video that the menu lags to hell and back. This lag is what effectively creates a soft limit on the level cap- if I levelled up to the 1,000,000 mark, the game would start crashing every time it tries to load the pokemon screen. The soft limit also varies based on your CPU- forcibly limiting the performance on my laptop also limited the extent to which I could raise Meech's level. The script crashed around level 600,000 when limited, for an example. That said, it's worth nothing that my game crashed literally the moment after I stopped recording the video, so it's not like there's a hard level cap in practice- it all just depends on whether or not your CPU can handle the load.

     

    Some caveats:

    So: obviously there's a problem with making the level cap too big, but there's not really a technical issue with setting it to, let's say, 50,000. So why don't we? (I rhetorically ask myself in order to set up the next part of this post)

     

    The first issue is EXP.

    If you watched the video above to the end, you'd see what the EXP requirements were to level up to 950,096. It takes over 2 trillion points. Meech's level there is, of course, unreasonably high, so here's the EXP values at level 50,000:

    MS5eQTP.png

    Compared to the numbers at level 950,095, this is technically more manageable, but still effectively impossible to reach in-game. To explain why this is the case, I'm going to talk a lot about EXP formulas and... well, I'm going to have to use some math, and I understand that math might not be what you all bargained for by reading this post. In order to spare those you might otherwise be overly startled by the presence of math, I'm going to throw up my specially patented Math Barrier, and those of you who wish to avoid the math can just rejoin the post after the second line of stars.

     

    ******************************* MATH BARRIER™ **********************************
    Alright, nerds.

    There are six types of EXP growth. In order from least EXP needed to most EXP needed, they are:
    Erratic, Fast, Medium, Parabolic, Slow, and Fluctuating. 
    For my own sake, I'm going to be focusing on the middle four growth types, since Erratic and Fluctuating are, uh, really weird and I don't quite know how to make them work for hypothetically high numbers.

     

    Here are the EXPgrowth formulas for the EXP needed to be at a given (level):
    Fast:           (level)3 * 0.8

    Medium:   (level)

    Parabolic:  (level)3 * 1.2 - (level)2 * 15 - (level) * 100 - 140

    Slow:          (level)3 * 1.25

    (Meech, for reference, is Fast.)

     

    The EXP gain formula- what determines how much EXP you get from battle- is why I made a Math Barrier earlier. It is a mess.

     

    EXPgain = (A / B)2.5 * C * D + 1

    A = Lvopp * 2 + 10

    B = Lvopp + Lvplayer + 10
    C = BaseEXP * Lvopp / 5

    D is just a catchall value for things like Lucky Egg boosts, traded pokemon boosts, EXP Share drops, etc. No one needs to see those.

    I've tried to make this as readable as possible but it's...it's still a mess. Lvopp is your opponent's level and Lvplayer is yours.

    It's worth noting that when  Lvopp = Lvplayer , A / B = 1 and the formula basically becomes C * D + 1 = EXPgain. To make things easier for the rest of the explanation, I'll be calculating EXP gain as if Meech was the same level as its opponent.

    Anyway, hope you nerds enjoyed the knowledge dump. I'll call the normies back in now.

    ******************************* MATH BARRIER™ **********************************

     

    The issue here is that EXPgain increases linearly and EXPgrowth increases cubicly. This effectively means that more pokemon will have to be fought in order to level up the higher your level is.

    I'll demonstrate this by having Meech fight a bunch of hypothetical Reshirams at the same level in order to level up. 

    Level 50 Meech needs: 6120 EXP or 2 Level 50 Reshirams

    Level 75 Meech needs: 13680 EXP or 2.98 Level 75 Reshirams

    Level 100 Meech needs: 24240 EXP or 3.96 Level 100 Reshirams

    Level 300 Meech needs: 216720 EXP or 11.8 Level 300 Reshirams

    Level 1000 Meech needs: 2402400 EXP or 39.25 Level 1000 Reshirams

    And, finally...

    Level 50000 Meech needs: 6000120000 EXP or 1960.8 Level 50000 Reshirams

    This is basically the EXP crunch that you normally see in the later areas of Reborn taken to extreme levels. The reason you don't see this any earlier is because the base EXP a pokemon gives also depends the sum of its base stats and whether or not it's evolved, with higher base stats and later evolutions having higher base EXP. The increase in EXP for a level up is mostly covered by the fact that the pokemon you're fighting are evolved and give more EXP. But as you can see, when the base EXP of the pokemon you fight isn't increasing anymore, leveling up starts to get harder and harder.

     

    This brings me to my second issue: Leveling up becomes pointless

    When you level up, you typically see growths of 1-5 points per stat. At the beginning of the game, this is pretty significant- A 5 point growth when your stat is at a total of 80 is a 6.25% increase. These level up growths effectively always stay the same- whether you're at a level 50 or 75 or 50000. 
    So let's check MegaMeech's stats.

    hFg4o1W.png

    A level up at 50000 does effectively nothing for MegaMeech, and it takes much much more effort to get one. Level differences between pokemon would also have to be larger to maintain any sort of significance.

     

     

    So we're still looking into what we'll do with increasing the level cap as far as Reborn is concerned. The main point of it is to make it so there's at least some kind of a challenge with Legendary battles and other postgame shenanigans. I'm also working on tweaks to the EXP formulas so that leveling up isn't such a pain while also making it so that further levelups aren't absolutely necessary to complete the main postgame content (and overleveling won't even be possible before you finish the League).

    There's no way we'd push the cap over 200 though. Nuh-uh.

    If we're getting to that point and can't increase the challenge without pushing the cap up further then we completely lack creativity and I will personally fire myself.

    So, yup, that's my TED Talk. Thanks for listening!

    Edited by andracass


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    Meech's level has now almost reached Cass's music volume.

     

    2 hours ago, Pisy said:

    Is it really necessary to raise the level cup?

    Well without it, by the time we reach endgame and postgame, everything (both our own teams and the enemy will just be sitting at level 100. and despite it being almost functionally identical, I know for myself and many others it will *feel* less engaging

     

     

     

     

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    2 hours ago, Juice said:

    So uh, what KO'd that Level 950095 MegaMeech? Do I dare to ask?

    i had to subdue it using my full power. the battle was not something meant for mortal eyes.

    it was KO'd at lv95 and it just carried over

    1 hour ago, DreamblitzX said:

    Meech's level has now almost reached Cass's music volume.

    augh i'm so sorry it should be a bit better now 😞

    1 hour ago, J-Awesome_One said:

    But do we really need to go into the 1000's? I mean probably up to lvl 200 would be good enough.

    yikes no

    most of the point of this post was showing how stupid increasing the level cap can be. like, it's already difficult to level up in the late game of current reborn. imagine that but 8 times worse and you'll get leveling up at lv190.

    when implemented in reborn there will definitely be a way to mitigate that, though.

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    Isn't it a little "cheap" to artificially raise the difficulty in such a manner? Are there literally no other options? Well as long as i'm able to (reasonably) grind my mons up to speed it's ok still kind of a bummer

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    Increasing the level cap would be good imo. Pokemon Zeta/Omicron and I think Insurgence did it, reaching to level 120 and it did increase in difficulty in a way. Given Reborn’s content on post-game subjectively, it’s a good step.

     

    P.S. I also remember a rom hack, Pokemon Vega, did it too. I think reaching the yikes level of 200. That game was so hard istg it was ridiculous, but fun though.

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    Wouldn't raising the level cap be like an artificial implementation of difficulty instead of actual strategy where the "hard" part comes from inflated numbers? At that point, instead of clever planning or counterplay it's kill the thing stronger than you before you get KO'd. Or bring something with a focus slash and destiny bond.

     

    That would make it even less engaging than being at stuck level 100. And I don't see feasible way to mitigate the tedious task of grinding to 190 other than adding audino trainers like Insurgence or Spork does. 

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    2 hours ago, The Lonely God said:

    Wouldn't raising the level cap be like an artificial implementation of difficulty instead of actual strategy where the "hard" part comes from inflated numbers? At that point, instead of clever planning or counterplay it's kill the thing stronger than you before you get KO'd. Or bring something with a focus slash and destiny bond.

     

    That would make it even less engaging than being at stuck level 100. And I don't see feasible way to mitigate the tedious task of grinding to 190 other than adding audino trainers like Insurgence or Spork does. 

    So one of the things that I'd be considering would be changing the EXP curve entirely. 

    And, uh, math warning.

    The formulas for the EXP growth types that I showed all basically involve the following components:

    A * (Lv) x

    where A is just some multiplier and x = 3.

    I'm looking into making it so that X either drops dramatically at Lv. 100 or decreases over time using some other kind of function, like say having x = (300 - 2 * Lv) / 100 . This would dramatically decrease the EXP requirements, for example if you need 1,000,000 EXP to reach Lv. 100: 

    for x = 3, total EXP at LV 200 is 8,000,000

    for x = 2, total EXP at LV 200 is 4,000,000

    for x = 1.5, total EXP at LV 200 is 3,250,000
    and the total EXP with the formula above involves doing calculus that I just...don't really wanna do right now.

    But anyway, the point is more that there are ways to fix the EXP grinding at upper levels.

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    Hello, I'm quite new on the website (approximatively 3 minutes^^) but I've played reborn since the last three years so first of all, thank you for this great game, I really love it^^.

     

    Concerning the level cap, I understand the point of why it is a good and dangerous idea. My question is, would it be possible for pokemons to learn more attacks during this leveling part? It could be very interesting, I mean, I know it's dangerous too because it could break the balance in game (why not a fresh new Dunsparce of meta^^) but even if it's just the breed or tutor move it could be nice (yeah I don't like overbreed : / ).

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    120 like insurgence seems like the proper amount especially since those last 20 levels are quite the grind to get without rare candies. But it really depends on how much post game content there is. If each legendary quest is about the same amount of time you spend on something like Sandys quest for example, where its just a few battles in unique places. Then you might wanna go for 130.

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    What if you introduce fakemon? For example, instead of battling a 120 level Crobat, we could battle against a 100 level CROBAT which has strategically buffed stats like in Pokemon Sun/Moon, making the battles challenging without modifying the level cap; although we understand that adding alternate versions of every enemy pokemon would be difficult or tedious for all the team.

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    7 minutes ago, SMC98 said:

    What if you introduce fakemon? For example, instead of battling a 120 level Crobat, we could battle against a 100 level CROBAT which has strategically buffed stats like in Pokemon Sun/Moon, making the battles challenging without modifying the level cap; although we understand that adding alternate versions of every enemy pokemon would be difficult or tedious for all the team.

    It's probably worth noting that this is effectively what PULSE mons- just buffed normal mons. 

    I think the two biggest reasons that we'd raise the level cap would be to A.) Make fighting legendaries actually somewhat difficult when you have access to everything and B.) Keep your team growing with you as you complete more of the in-game content. With the canon pokemon games, level 100 is a sensible maximum since you're not even going to be anywhere near that level through the main story and only barely approaching it for the superboss fights.

    In any case, if it just makes grinding mandatory in testing then there'll either be some way around that in-game or we probably just won't do it.

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    Level 100 is enough. I want the endgame to revolve around building better teams and playing smarter, not just getting more levels because the enemies have more levels. I was excited to finally hit level 100 but if it ends up just being a fake out and there's still another 10, 20, 30, or 100 levels to grind through in order to catch up to every NPC I have to deal with, that would be a huge disappointment.

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    17 hours ago, Lorisaur said:

    Just a question: why EP18.4?

    I'm guessing that EP19 is the last gym leader + elite4 and post-game.

    While EP18.4 is probably all of the above but the post-game.

    In the scoreboard it says that the post-game scoreboard will open after the rest is done so after that is done maybe they change the threat into EP19? It's just a theory but could be it, idk.

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    7 hours ago, princessyiris said:

    Level 100 is enough. I want the endgame to revolve around building better teams and playing smarter, not just getting more levels because the enemies have more levels. I was excited to finally hit level 100 but if it ends up just being a fake out and there's still another 10, 20, 30, or 100 levels to grind through in order to catch up to every NPC I have to deal with, that would be a huge disappointment.

    You're over exaggerating in my opinion. They are working on it so it's mostlikely going to happen so you'd better prepare for your disappointment then.

    I mean all there is left is a gym leader, elite four and post-game. Gym leader will raise the cap to 100 (mostlikely). Then there is the elite-4 and not every member will give you a level cap. You'll probably need common candies so your mons won't pass the cap when you're at the 3th or 4th member or you just stay a couple of levels under it.

    Then there's probably Lin or something and post-game so you'll probably have to go to like level 110,115 or 120. Not that big of a deal especially with all the money you grind and the ability of buying rare candies (for not even that big of a price).

     

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    I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that 100 is reasonable for the canon games. 100 is reasonable for competitive play in the canon games for min/maxing but if you're just playing normally usually there's no point grinding past level 70 as most Pokemon are done learning new moves in their 60s. Plus the fact high level moves were put in the level 1 pool in 6th gen so Pokemon could be taught them early. 

     

    Even if you change the multiplier to x3 it's still a crazy amount of grinding that you have to do. Hell, leveling something to even level 80 is time consuming in Reborn. Not to mention I'm not even sure how IVs and Evs would be applied because of how they scale with levels.

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    Ooh, that's actually a really good point- I didn't explain how EVs and IVs work with overleveling at all. Thankfully, it's not too complicated: every 4 EVs and every 1 IV will get you 1 stat point every 100 levels. MegaMeech would be getting a grand total of 15500 points from its 31 attack IVs by level 50000.

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    I don't expect to overlevel when I reach the E4, as going from the 90s to the 100s is hard, even if your opponents all carry pokemon of lvl100. Removing the level cap (in general) is an effective way to just stop the punishment, if someone actually makes it to lvl101. Other than that, I don't expect any major change. 

     

    As for the legendaries, you can always set them in appropriate fields or impose limitations in the player's party. Another idea is to have their stats boosted for that specific encounter. To elaborate: each field could cause a specific PULSE-esque change in each legendary pokemon. The PC battles it in the field and captures it. After that the pokemon returns to the original form, and can probably be used in PULSE form when used in the specific field. 

    In my opinion, such a solution (that unfortunately only caters to the legendaries and nothing more you might have planned) avoids being "cheap", like increasing the level cap just to provide a challenge might feel for some. In my mind it makes more sense to have captured a temporarily boosted pokemon than have it be level 150 and when I get it, it either is too strong against others (ie other legends) or returns to lvl100 (like that misdreavous does under the wall). 

     

    I'm just brainstorming, but it bypasses the need to make intricate calculations on how EXP will work after 100.

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    I understand some people like to exercise patience and determination by grinding. But I'm feeling that is more niche than common among players. What drives Reborn is its story. I learned how to IV breed and EV grind just to keep playing Reborn - not to lose to Ame & co and engage and solve the challenges and puzzles you/they've thrown at us, and let myself be immersed in the story and world that Ame has so beautifully built and given to us - free of charge! Having to grind (and I absolutely detest the time lost for inherently meaningless grinding) was part and parcel of the challenges of the game so far. "You want to see more? Put in the effort for it!" But this is slowly turning into something like a Pokémon-SAT now. You grind, you take the test, and if you want a good life/keep playing you have to pass the test, but the test and its grind are completely irrelevant to life/story. We play game precisely to get away from that aspect of life. Please, just make sure that you don't end up doing that in Reborn. Reborn means something, a really good thing. But falling to the trap of throwing harder grinding tests at the players can diminish this meaning. Please don't let mind numbing patience become the defining characteristic of the game.

     

    I gave up playing Rejuvenation because of this. (Along with the Wheel of Time, it remains the only thing I put down in frustration, and I've stuck to the end of some really bad and cringy stuff in my time.) The story and writing simply aren't good enough to merit wasting so much time on grinding. Reborn's story was worth it so far, but you've already promised us that we will fight some PULSE-mons with EVs higher than what we can reach. While it isn't a cheap challange - PULSEs should have something to them - it is quite certainly not a challange I am looking forward to. It seems like it is just going to be some nasty admin battles to get over - as if they weren't hard enough already. And grinding in Reborn is hard. Another example of something similar is the Poipole challange. The game is slowly becoming something that excludes players who aren't obsessed with it.

     

    That said I will finish the game no matter whatever is thrown at us. One does not simply turn away from great work like Reborn.

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    On 3/2/2019 at 5:58 PM, ZappoNinja said:

    I'm fine with this as long as it doesn't just turn into a "Grind for 20 levels or stand no chance whatsoever" kind of game. Not the most fun when that happens is all.

    considering the entire game up to this point hasn't been like that, I don't think you need to worry 

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    Has anyone on the development team maybe considered allowing only a couple members of your team to go beyond level 100? Like, make it a choice for leveling? I mean, we already see every Gym Leader with one Pokemon whose stronger than the rest. Why not make that an option for the rest of us? Let us have the option for one or two or however many you think is appropriate to level to a higher cap. Or maybe add a formula that calculates the total level of all the Pokemon in your team and it cannot exceed that beyond a certain cap. Just an idea.

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    Hey everyone, I just want to mention that, if you increase the level cap, you should also increase the EV limit cap (510). In fact, the impact of the EV training (ex: EVs 252 HP, 24 Def, 232 SpD) at level 200 is pointless compared to the base stat of a level 200 pokemon. Isn't it ?

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    I'm new to Pokémon Reborn so it will take me forever to reach the level cap anyways, but since it's still in development I'd like to point out that it would be fair to add a new item to increase levels beyond lvl100. Eg; Super Rare Candy or Extraordinary Candy.
    I've been training the fulll fourth generation dex to lvl100 on Pokémon Platinum on and off ever since 2013 (on my 3rd handheld now which is also showing signs of dying with about 150 Pokémon still to go [Yes I've cheated for Arceus, Celebi and Mew]) and I think it'd be unfair to use regular RC's for such high amounts of XP. It would defeat the whole purpose for all who've used them so far in the game.

    I like the idea of maxing at lvl120 as mentioned best, over 150 wouldn't be very usefull anymore compared to the amount of grinding required per level with virtually no stat points increase.

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    If you're looking to make Legendary battles more difficult, why not make them like the Totem Pokemon battles? Boost one or more of their stats and also have them summon another mon for help. For example, have Kyogre summon an Alomomola and (like with the Wishiwashi Totem) have it spam Heal Pulse and Soak. Or, like, I dunno, summon an Araquanid/Clawitzer/Dewgong/Luvdisc with Entrainment and give Kyogre any of their useful abilities.

    Edited by Yoma_masaho
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    For me it's a good idea, being well managed of course. I've always wanted games with broken limits and overblown overruns (but not that much). I think Reborn made history and the end saddens me at the same time that animates. I did not want the ending to come so fast, but I'm looking forward to it, to understand why Lin is my biggest goal, so I hope Ame has a clever ending for her. Maybe I have that image that women villains are actually smarter than male villains. I think the limit could be up to level 120, as they said above. It would be somewhat balanced for what we apparently know about the post game.

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    I remember playing Pokemon Zeta/Omicron a while back and I believe the level cap was 120, but AT level 120 some Pokemon learned a new move-- Take my Magmortar, for example. When it hit level 120 it learned a move(I don't remember what it was called) that was basically a Blast Burn without a recharge. My point is, it'd be pretty interesting if you made new moves that Pokemon learned as they approached, or reached, the new level cap-- they don't necessarily have to be overpowered moves, just something new or even just a move that the Pokemon couldn't learn before, but can now. Either way, the level cap seems like a great idea for the "postgame shenanigans".

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    I know this is a bit long after the original post, however, I do think there is a fairly easy way to solve this. I believe that Pokemon Empyrean has a good way of tackling this, adding some sort of multiplier to experience gain via a better kind of lucky egg or exp. share. It would not solve the eventual problem of the exponential exp. growth, however, it could move the goal post forward a few more levels unless you want to have some sort of special Audino trainers that give extra exp. (Pokemon Empyrean does this too with the Mech Blisseys).

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    I know this is late but, I think this idea is a double-edged sword. While some people will enjoy the increase in the level cap, some won't. I'm personally one of the later. If you guys are doing this for difficulty then consider doing something like the Totem Pokémon in S/M, like some people have already said. Make the legendary pokémon have totem like stats and if you need a very challenging trainer you can make it work like Lusamine/Nihilego, having their entire team have the totem boost. Getting beyond Lv.100 just seems unnecessary. I'll still play the game regardless, but if I got to choose, I'd rather have the totem boost over the increased level cap.

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    On 6/28/2019 at 7:00 PM, NeroNerotico said:

    I know this is late but, I think this idea is a double-edged sword. While some people will enjoy the increase in the level cap, some won't. I'm personally one of the later. If you guys are doing this for difficulty then consider doing something like the Totem Pokémon in S/M, like some people have already said. Make the legendary pokémon have totem like stats and if you need a very challenging trainer you can make it work like Lusamine/Nihilego, having their entire team have the totem boost. Getting beyond Lv.100 just seems unnecessary. I'll still play the game regardless, but if I got to choose, I'd rather have the totem boost over the increased level cap.

    Make it optional? I understand this is a opinion heavy subject. But when a fan made game is made to push limits of the original, while reborn already being a extremelt unique kind of game... it makes the game more unique and different. A unique game that preserves elements of an original is what makes them different. I simply do not understand why there are even ppl against the idea? Is it because you are afraid of "new" and "different"? The most awesome games i ever played are special because of they do things different while keeping the feel the same? I get all excited when limits get altered. I love challenges aslong as they are managable so i can enjoy them. So im against making things too easy for a game. But there is such things as need for expansion of limits for such a large story. Its rewarding and keeps ppl ticking. If we kept the limits at lvl 100, dont you think you also limiting potential for a game like this? I feel it would lost a lot of spark and would be more bad if its not put in or something else? Like a new game + like borderlands and witcher 3 (more like borderlands) that carries off after lvl 100 but you start over. But all the enemies will be more op than the first play through. Now theres an idea! Point is... i dont understand but the best thing to do is give a choice maybe? To go beyond limits if u want?

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    On 7/13/2019 at 8:16 PM, DIGIMORTAL said:

    Make it optional? I understand this is a opinion heavy subject. But when a fan made game is made to push limits of the original, while reborn already being a extremelt unique kind of game... it makes the game more unique and different. A unique game that preserves elements of an original is what makes them different. I simply do not understand why there are even ppl against the idea? Is it because you are afraid of "new" and "different"? The most awesome games i ever played are special because of they do things different while keeping the feel the same? I get all excited when limits get altered. I love challenges aslong as they are managable so i can enjoy them. So im against making things too easy for a game. But there is such things as need for expansion of limits for such a large story. Its rewarding and keeps ppl ticking. If we kept the limits at lvl 100, dont you think you also limiting potential for a game like this? I feel it would lost a lot of spark and would be more bad if its not put in or something else? Like a new game + like borderlands and witcher 3 (more like borderlands) that carries off after lvl 100 but you start over. But all the enemies will be more op than the first play through. Now theres an idea! Point is... i dont understand but the best thing to do is give a choice maybe? To go beyond limits if u want?

    The reasons are one because the original level cap was decided by GF for balancing reasons, two since you apparently missed this part it causes the game to slow down which will be a problem for some users, three its fake difficulty and four not everyone plays Reborn for the challenge. Of course making it optional should stratify everyone and sidestep these issues.

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    On 2/18/2019 at 9:01 AM, J-Awesome_One said:

    But do we really need to go into the 1000's? I mean probably up to lvl 200 would be good enough.

    Ok but the pokemon level above 100 will not obey that's the major issue 

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    but it's just the scripts!

    i never know what's worth mentioning.

    anyway we might redo the battle system.

    (6/15)

     

     

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