The Unofficial V13 Discussion Thread

[Paperblade]

Also, since I finally did the sidequest for it, the people who were talking about "humans who are pokemon" might be interested in the Archive (dive spot in Route 6). Transcribed text here for reference:

 

Spoiler

Legendary Bond: "Human immortality is something we've discussed and even attempted at many times before. Why do creatures known as 'Pokemon' live far longer lives than humans? It seems, as previously theorized, that Pokemon and humans share a common ancestor. Using the Archetype's power, we were able to unleash the hidden potential of certain subjects. We are able to awaken a gene inside of a human that brings forth their primitive instincts and form. The result of this, subjects have turned into Pokemon themselves! And not regular beings either. Beings that have dominance over time, space, and anti-matter. No further testing has been done at this time."

 

Interestingly, another bookcase in here says the Archetype changes the eyes, hair, and sometimes skin of those influenced by it to gold. Additionally, removing its influence sometimes restores the original appearance of the subject. This is especially attention grabbing because the hospital report on Anathea in Zone Zero describes her hair color as black.

[nhehvnukl]

16 minutes ago, Paperblade said:

Also, since I finally did the sidequest for it, the people who were talking about "humans who are pokemon" might be interested in the Archive (dive spot in Route 6). Transcribed text here for reference:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Legendary Bond: "Human immortality is something we've discussed and even attempted at many times before. Why do creatures known as 'Pokemon' live far longer lives than humans? It seems, as previously theorized, that Pokemon and humans share a common ancestor. Using the Archetype's power, we were able to unleash the hidden potential of certain subjects. We are able to awaken a gene inside of a human that brings forth their primitive instincts and form. The result of this, subjects have turned into Pokemon themselves! And not regular beings either. Beings that have dominance over time, space, and anti-matter. No further testing has been done at this time."

 

Interestingly, another bookcase in here says the Archetype changes the eyes, hair, and sometimes skin of those influenced by it to gold. Additionally, removing its influence sometimes restores the original appearance of the subject. This is especially attention grabbing because the hospital report on Anathea in Zone Zero describes her hair color as black.

Yep. This kinda explains Melia's (and Erin's, Alice's and Allen's)... whatever they have.

[Falirion]

37 minutes ago, Paperblade said:

Also, since I finally did the sidequest for it, the people who were talking about "humans who are pokemon" might be interested in the Archive (dive spot in Route 6). Transcribed text here for reference:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Legendary Bond: "Human immortality is something we've discussed and even attempted at many times before. Why do creatures known as 'Pokemon' live far longer lives than humans? It seems, as previously theorized, that Pokemon and humans share a common ancestor. Using the Archetype's power, we were able to unleash the hidden potential of certain subjects. We are able to awaken a gene inside of a human that brings forth their primitive instincts and form. The result of this, subjects have turned into Pokemon themselves! And not regular beings either. Beings that have dominance over time, space, and anti-matter. No further testing has been done at this time."

 

Interestingly, another bookcase in here says the Archetype changes the eyes, hair, and sometimes skin of those influenced by it to gold. Additionally, removing its influence sometimes restores the original appearance of the subject. This is especially attention grabbing because the hospital report on Anathea in Zone Zero describes her hair color as black.

Huh, i read all that but didn't make that connection, i kinda thought the physical details in the Hospital report were discribing one of Indriad's maids (covering for Anatheas death or smth) this makes way more sense, though the scar in the shape of a key still strikes me as odd, and the fact that the report says she had 4 children and well she did, while anathea herself claimed Maria to be an only child i think. (who can say, "changed Memories, curtesy of Indriad"?)

[Paperblade]

1 minute ago, Falirion said:

Huh, i read all that but didn't make that connection, i kinda thought the physical details in the Hospital report were discribing one of Indriad's maids (covering for Anatheas death or smth) this makes way more sense, though the scar in the shape of a key still strikes me as odd, and the fact that the report says she had 4 children and well she did, while anathea herself claimed Maria to be an only child i think. (who can say, "changed Memories, curtesy of Indriad"?)

Yeah, if you buy Maria is Melia, that would line up with Erin, Allen, and Alice. Her believing she has only one child makes sense if Indriad locked away the other 3 in the Unown Dimension.

 

Maybe the scar is how the Archetype was applied/removed?

[Kikss]

Well, is it a possibility that there was only Maria first and then bec of what Vitus/Indriad did to her she split into 4 beings? with Melia being the strongest one and bec of that the other 3 were banned in the unown dimension. That would also explain why Anathea claims the she only has one child, bec they split after her death.

Well, maybe not that likely but possible, what do you think?

[nhehvnukl]

1 hour ago, Falirion said:

Huh, i read all that but didn't make that connection, i kinda thought the physical details in the Hospital report were discribing one of Indriad's maids (covering for Anatheas death or smth) this makes way more sense, though the scar in the shape of a key still strikes me as odd, and the fact that the report says she had 4 children and well she did, while anathea herself claimed Maria to be an only child i think. (who can say, "changed Memories, curtesy of Indriad"?)

I swear, Indriad is omnipotent or something. Like, I get it, he's super old and thus super "vise", but we dont see Nymiera pulling anything close to his level of bullshiterry.  (Also, I wet and reread my answer to the username thing and I was a little too hostile so sorry for that).

 

1 hour ago, Kikss said:

Well, is it a possibility that there was only Maria first and then bec of what Vitus/Indriad did to her she split into 4 beings? with Melia being the strongest one and bec of that the other 3 were banned in the unown dimension. That would also explain why Anathea claims the she only has one child, bec they split after her death.

Well, maybe not that likely but possible, what do you think?

That is an interesting interpretation. This might actually be the truth. Huh.

[Falirion]

2 hours ago, Paperblade said:

Yeah, if you buy Maria is Melia, that would line up with Erin, Allen, and Alice. Her believing she has only one child makes sense if Indriad locked away the other 3 in the Unown Dimension.

 

Maybe the scar is how the Archetype was applied/removed?

This might be a recuring theme with my musinings but I have no idea what Indriad is trying to do, he seemingly tried to destroy the world sacrifice everything to Arceus like the crazy cult leader that he is but then what is up with looking away 3 of his children, and repeadedly trying to sacrifice the 4th? because it doesn't stick? or trying to retund the piece of Arceus to him, but according to Nymeria he wanted to archetype for himself? I really need to finish my replay of the game, i don't remember nymeria's story too well.

2 hours ago, Kikss said:

Well, is it a possibility that there was only Maria first and then bec of what Vitus/Indriad did to her she split into 4 beings? with Melia being the strongest one and bec of that the other 3 were banned in the unown dimension. That would also explain why Anathea claims the she only has one child, bec they split after her death.

Well, maybe not that likely but possible, what do you think?

Well that is a theory! it would explain why 3 of them were locked away (Indriad trying to do what he is doing with no.4 possibly as a test run), heck that would even give the interpretation that the 4 lights from the prophecy are melia and her siblings more credence as that way they actually would fill the whole "Not born of man" stipulation, which in other interpretations only Melia fits for, being a similiar sort of reicarnation as Aelita is for Vivian. (probably anyway we don't know anything) which by the way is my main explaination how Melia and Maria lived in the same time for 3 years, with neither having a time gear or anything, without bad things happening, they are not enough of the same person to count for timecorrection. (that's a pretty blury line though considering Melanie counted despite being a completly different person as well) Still not a fan of that interpretation of the light prophecy but with this theory it is at least credible.

2 hours ago, nhehvnukl said:

I swear, Indriad is omnipotent or something. Like, I get it, he's super old and thus super "vise", but we dont see Nymiera pulling anything close to his level of bullshiterry.  (Also, I wet and reread my answer to the username thing and I was a little too hostile so sorry for that).

 that seems to be a pretty common thing here, that a lot of people have an absolut mess of powers, i mean just look at Crescent, Madame X, Freya, Melia, heck even the player char (i generally don't go fo MC, because we kinda share that with melia) is close to straight up immortal.
Also no offense taken on my part, i can get a lot worse when i get invested in a discussion, if for instance paperblade had thought i still mean the eye or something i could have garantied for nothing

Edited October 28, 2019 by Falirion

[Paperblade]

My feelings on Indriad are basically "I don't know what he wants, but it's definitely Bad and he or something he unleashes is gonna be the Final Boss"

[Falirion]

13 hours ago, Falirion said:

Huh, i read all that but didn't make that connection, i kinda thought the physical details in the Hospital report were discribing one of Indriad's maids (covering for Anatheas death or smth) this makes way more sense, though the scar in the shape of a key still strikes me as odd, and the fact that the report says she had 4 children and well she did, while anathea herself claimed Maria to be an only child i think. (who can say, "changed Memories, curtesy of Indriad"?) 

quoting myself because i just realised something... there is a file for anathea in the ruins of hiyoshi city (in fact i don't remember wasn't that even in Isha's house or was it the Hospital?), and isha was working there before the calamity, we know Isha can mess with memories... no curtesy of Indriad, curtesy of Dr. Isha

Edited October 29, 2019 by Falirion

[nhehvnukl]

1 hour ago, Falirion said:

quoting myself because i just realised something... there is a file for anathea in the ruins of hiyoshi city (in fact i don't remember wasn't that even in Isha's house or was it the Hospital?), and isha was working there before the calamity, we know Isha can mess with memories... no curtesy of Indriad, curtesy of Dr. Isha

Isha is Indriad 2.0, prove me wrong. He's EVERYWHERE.

[kithas]

4 hours ago, nhehvnukl said:

Isha is Indriad 2.0, prove me wrong. He's EVERYWHERE.

Isha is only a sketchy doctor around Hiyoshi City back before the Cataclysm, who escaped when authorities catched up on his evilness and then implanted himself in his son. Right now I think he's only what we've seen at the end of V12 and the most he will do will be escape to make trouble again.

His name, in fact, is similar to the name of the King of the Zygara kingdom (the one from the castle down in Sashila and the Pyramid who was Griselda's ally) who was King Ieisel (spelling may be inaccurate but they're definetly diferent characters).

[ArcaneArceus]

So I played a little bit and looked through some files. I double checked the Archive one Route 6, and there were two books:

”The Core: Project Interceptor” and “Interceptor’s Limits”.

 

Spoiler

 

The Core book talks about how the Interceptor came to be, and what they were meant to do, before going on to talk about The Core. The Core is apparently the Garufa pillars meant to emerge when “some one not of this world” is detected. It ends with “This will -. The rest of the text appears to be missing”.

 

The Interceptor’s Limits talks about how the Interceptor cannot leave the planet or stray from the Core. They won’t be fit for the “Eclysia Project”. The Interceptor also will damage the Core in death, and cannot fail too many times.

 

Just to put that out there.

 

Edited October 29, 2019 by ArcaneArceus

[nhehvnukl]

3 hours ago, kithas said:

Isha is only a sketchy doctor around Hiyoshi City back before the Cataclysm, who escaped when authorities catched up on his evilness and then implanted himself in his son. Right now I think he's only what we've seen at the end of V12 and the most he will do will be escape to make trouble again.

His name, in fact, is similar to the name of the King of the Zygara kingdom (the one from the castle down in Sashila and the Pyramid who was Griselda's ally) who was King Ieisel (spelling may be inaccurate but they're definetly diferent characters).

I meant, like, Isha erasing Narcissa's memory and the theory that Falirion mentioned. Also, he's a big douche.

[Aphelli]

On 10/28/2019 at 10:09 PM, Paperblade said:

Yeah, if you buy Maria is Melia, that would line up with Erin, Allen, and Alice. Her believing she has only one child makes sense if Indriad locked away the other 3 in the Unown Dimension.

I’m not too sure. She’s supposed to be the mother, so she probably knows better than Vitus the number of children she has. Vitus would struggle to hide the children in another dimension without her knowing. Maybe a “childbirth accident”? But Gardevoir tells us Anathea genuinely made Vitus quit his path (not that the Gardevoir is exactly trustworthy though). 

 

However, there’s a pretty strong (although not canonical) counterargument to Melia being Maria. Maria can give lessons in “Advanced Calculus” (note that she’s probably half the age of any person on Earth learning calculus) while Melia said tearfully she was bad at math, and this was the reason why she failed Axis High. 

 

Allen or Alice probably can’t be Maria. So what it was actually Erin, the puzzle-solver, the “incredible analyst”, the bookworm? 

 

Or, since Vitus seems to exist across timelines and places, seeing as how he’s in the sewers, in Kugearen Woods, in Hiyoshi and Goldenleaf, maybe these are alternate versions of him and his family, so Maria doesn’t need to correspond to anything... 

Edited October 29, 2019 by Mindlack

[Falirion]

29 minutes ago, Mindlack said:

I’m not too sure. She’s supposed to be the mother, so she probably knows better than Vitus the number of children she has. Vitus would struggle to hide the children in another dimension without her knowing. Maybe a “childbirth accident”? But Gardevoir tells us Anathea genuinely made Vitus quit his path (not that the Gardevoir is exactly trustworthy though). 

 

However, there’s a pretty strong (although not canonical) counterargument to Melia being Maria. Maria can give lessons in “Advanced Calculus” (note that she’s probably half the age of any person on Earth learning calculus) while Melia said tearfully she was bad at math, and this was the reason why she failed Axis High. 

 

Allen or Alice probably can’t be Maria. So what it was actually Erin, the puzzle-solver, the “incredible analyst”, the bookworm? 

 

Or, since Vitus seems to exist across timelines and places, seeing as how he’s in the sewers, in Kugearen Woods, in Hiyoshi and Goldenleaf, maybe these are alternate versions of him and his family, so Maria doesn’t need to correspond to anything... 

If i may, Melia and Maria have a connection of some sort, there is not really any denying that, remember when Angie tried to sacrifice Melia? Melia before she broke the ritual flickered back and forth between herself and Maria(nette) visualy. the fact that Melia is not good at math, while maria was, is not really a point against that either as Melia is likely some sort of reincarnation in the same way Aelita is one of Vivian and Vivian knew stuff about Garufa Magic while Aelita knew absolutely nothing about it, because they are not entirely the same person but just magically connected, same probably counts for Melia and Maria
Vitus Theolia has been stated to be the first man, created by Arceus according to Nymerias story, so if that is true he clearly doesn't age, so he doesn't really need to timetravel to be at all these points in time the way he is, he exists in any timeperiod that has humans by virtue of having LIVED THROUGH that, in fact i suspect he doesn't have any means of time travel (seeing as according to Gardevoir Storm 9 (that name.... gosh) is his doing, he would have used that ability to prevent Vivian's ritual properly), As for Anathea remebering giving birth to more than one child, geeeze if only we knew some kind of specialist that knows how to manipulate and/or entirely remove memories, like a doctor of some sort....
sorry couldn't help myself on that gag, but as i pointed out further up Anathea was in reach of Isha based on the patient profile in Hiyoshi, and if Indriad didn't want Anathea to remeber certain things he would absolutely find proficient help in Isha in that regard.
now obviously a lot of this only theory, but the bit about angie's attempted sacrifice of Melia, is fact, and the bit about Vitus is being the first man is outright stated by Nymeria, his immortality being the logic consequence of that fact. so take this for what you will

Edited October 29, 2019 by Falirion

[kithas]

I have the feeling Anthea is not actually Melia's mother, but Indriad probably want to "crack Arceus/The Archetype's code" by using magic on Maria/Marianette and using Anathema as a cover, while saving the others

[ArcaneArceus]

Spoiler

 

After beating Marianette, she says something about remembering everything. I assume that she means Indriad's sacrifices in the prologue, Anathea's death, and Maria's imprisonment in that wierd crystal from WLL. Isha probably messed with Maria's memories before Storm 9 while they were all in old Aevium and could reach Hiyoshi easily.

 

I agree that Storm 9 was caused by Indriad, but I also think that it was Yveltal who did it. For one, everything but the tall grass in Zone Zero is dead except for a plant in Nymeria's apartment which "seems to have been watered recently". The people are all turned to stone, which reminds me of the XY anime/movie? where any person or animal Yveltal hit became a statue. 

 

Third, Ana, the android, seems to be closely related to the Interceptor and the "six 'A's" in that house that the player has weird reactions to. For one, there's a grave right by it both pre- and post- Calamity, and two, all of Ana's sprites are named sort of... weirdly? I guess. She's a named NPC so we should expect them to be something like Nim_1, or Aelita_5, or Crescent, or even trchar008. But ALL of her sprites are named some variation of "Bgirl_insert whatever here" and there are 17 separate sprite sheets named like that based around Ana. The sprites also follow the pattern of the player characters, including a diving sprite, fishing sprite, running and walking, and two variants:

   

The first sprite is Ana from the sidequest, simple enough. The second is also Ana, but she has eyes, which is strange, considering it was a fairly large talking point at the beginning of the quest line. Even more interesting is this: . A map sprite for Ana labeled "mapPlayer007". Ana is almost certainly related to the Interceptor in some way, but what way is it?

 

Edited October 30, 2019 by ArcaneArceus

[nhehvnukl]

5 hours ago, ArcaneArceus said:

  Hide contents

 

After beating Marianette, she says something about remembering everything. I assume that she means Indriad's sacrifices in the prologue, Anathea's death, and Maria's imprisonment in that wierd crystal from WLL. Isha probably messed with Maria's memories before Storm 9 while they were all in old Aevium and could reach Hiyoshi easily.

 

I agree that Storm 9 was caused by Indriad, but I also think that it was Yveltal who did it. For one, everything but the tall grass in Zone Zero is dead except for a plant in Nymeria's apartment which "seems to have been watered recently". The people are all turned to stone, which reminds me of the XY anime/movie? where any person or animal Yveltal hit became a statue. 

 

Third, Ana, the android, seems to be closely related to the Interceptor and the "six 'A's" in that house that the player has weird reactions to. For one, there's a grave right by it both pre- and post- Calamity, and two, all of Ana's sprites are named sort of... weirdly? I guess. She's a named NPC so we should expect them to be something like Nim_1, or Aelita_5, or Crescent, or even trchar008. But ALL of her sprites are named some variation of "Bgirl_insert whatever here" and there are 17 separate sprite sheets named like that based around Ana. The sprites also follow the pattern of the player characters, including a diving sprite, fishing sprite, running and walking, and two variants:

   

The first sprite is Ana from the sidequest, simple enough. The second is also Ana, but she has eyes, which is strange, considering it was a fairly large talking point at the beginning of the quest line. Even more interesting is this: . A map sprite for Ana labeled "mapPlayer007". Ana is almost certainly related to the Interceptor in some way, but what way is it?

 

Ana is actually playable with a password, so that's why.

[ArcaneArceus]

 

3 hours ago, nhehvnukl said:

Ana is actually playable with a password, so that's why.

Huh. TIL.

[kithas]

35 minutes ago, ArcaneArceus said:

 

Huh. TIL.

That would make ANA a sort of Interceptor or something related. At the least, I think her sidequest is going to be as important as Karen/@lice was for the plot. 

[nhehvnukl]

51 minutes ago, kithas said:

That would make ANA a sort of Interceptor or something related. At the least, I think her sidequest is going to be as important as Karen/@lice was for the plot. 

Ana also has a portrait in Creecent's... place and a grave near our "vacation home". Buuuuuuut, Jan mentioned that Ana wont appear inside the main plot so...

[Falirion]

43 minutes ago, nhehvnukl said:

Ana also has a portrait in Creecent's... place and a grave near our "vacation home". Buuuuuuut, Jan mentioned that Ana wont appear inside the main plot so...

That portrait is probably to tie her in if you pick her as playable (although that wasn't exactly neccessary as an easteregg char) as Crescent has a Portrait with all the other playable chars, as for the grave, that doesn't necessarily have to be the same Ana or it ties into her sidestory later, guess we will see.

Now i have thought about the Timesurfers a little with Freya's rather strange actions, combined with them working for Madame X (specifically Madame X probably not affiliated with Team Xen, just in case that distinction ends up mattering) but this time Keiran, he helped the player up Mt. Valor, by unlocking one of the emotion crystals, and providing emotion powder, which kind of played part in ruining Geara's plan in capturing Melia, the next time we see him in Alamissa Urben his comments indicate that he does indeed know the player to be the Interceptor, and does seem to have a strong problem with that concept. Also expressing boredom at everything being predetermined and playing out as he knows it's going to
(Which makes his reaction to you entering Valor Mountain via the Backdoor in Crawli's gym funny: he expresses surprise at you coming from below instead of the main entrance, before shrugging it off) Keiran and Freya very likely have their own angles and work for Madame X seemingly for their own reasons, and are not above messing with her other projects when it suits them, so jay another side in this conflict. how many are we at with that? 7? more? 

14 hours ago, kithas said:

I have the feeling Anthea is not actually Melia's mother, but Indriad probably want to "crack Arceus/The Archetype's code" by using magic on Maria/Marianette and using Anathema as a cover, while saving the others

you know what, that's a good point, Melia & Erin's mother talked to them in the Library via some means, but Anathea's spirit at the time was (and still is) in the Players soul stone.... sooo? who at the time was, in past Hiyoshi i might add (if i remember the sequence of events right). so there is probably something up.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Falirion

[TheVentusX]

4 hours ago, Falirion said:

 

you know what, that's a good point, Melia & Erin's mother talked to them in the Library via some means, but Anathea's spirit at the time was (and still is) in the Players soul stone.... sooo? who at the time was, in past Hiyoshi i might add (if i remember the sequence of events right). so there is probably something up.

You also have to keep in mind that in present Hiyoshi/Zone Zero there is the patient file that indicates that there is/was another Anathea (with black hair) who birthed four children. This indicates that Indriad married another woman who has the name Anathea or that he named her after the original one for unknown reasons and I believe she is the mother of the Archtype siblings and if this is true, it would explain why Melia and Erin heard her voice even though the Anathea we know is in the Soul Stone. It would also explain the connection between Melia and Marianette, since they would be be half-siblings but i have to admit, that it doesn´t explain why Melia looked like Marianette for a brief second when Angie wanted to sacrifice her.

 

But this could also undermine my different timeline theory. Since Erin asked Melia if she thinks that they really travelled to the past I have some doubts about the "Past"-storyline.

 

First I tought Anathea#2 could be Madame X but then she would have known about Erin and the twins and at the moments there are no hints to show that but who knows what comes in the future.

[Falirion]

points further upthread, that file has already come up yeah, and there are like 15 different ways that one can be interpreted, to summarize, a few theorys about that that came up
-(my initial read)Physical description is of a maid (note the scar in keyform, that seems like a mark for a magical construct) to cover for anatheas death for some reason

-(credits to paperblade)The file descripes anathea before something with the archetype was done to her or after it left (influence of the archetype manifest in golden hair and/or eyes) Any discrepancies with Anatheas perception of this can be cleaned right up by Dr. Isha the mastery of messing with people's heads (that second half was me)
-(because lul paranoid)The info in the file is whack, thanks to Isha

-(and yours) there is in fact is a 2nd Anathea

on a completely different note, in the last Q&A Jan mentioned that we have by now met 6 of the E8 (and i similar statement that said we had met 4 before taking the train to GDC)
and while Karen, Tesla and Volta's mother (forgot the name) are confirmed who do you guys think are the other 3? remember one of those has to be new since taking the train, while the other 2 have to be seen before that. My guesses are Nastasia (a wierd one i know but would explain how we still haven't battled her) Alexandra (she is something in the league based on her reactions on the train so either E8 or outright Champion) and Hasuki Blakeory (i mean come on, she was one of th protectors of Aevium in the past, she has got to be strong)

Edited October 30, 2019 by Falirion

[nhehvnukl]

20 minutes ago, Falirion said:

points further upthread, that file has already come up yeah, and there are like 15 different ways that one can be interpreted, to summarize, a few theorys about that that came up
-(my initial read)Physical description is of a maid (note the scar in keyform, that seems like a mark for a magical construct) to cover for anatheas death for some reason

-(credits to paperblade)The file descripes anathea before something with the archetype was done to her or after it left (influence of the archetype manifest in golden hair and/or eyes) Any discrepancies with Anatheas perception of this can be cleaned right up by Dr. Isha the mastery of messing with people's heads (that second half was me)
-(because lul paranoid)The info in the file is whack, thanks to Isha

-(and yours) there is in fact is a 2nd Anathea

on a completely different note, in the last Q&A Jan mentioned that we have by now met 6 of the E8 (and i similar statement that said we had met 4 before taking the train to GDC)
and while Karen, Tesla and Volta's mother (forgot the name) are confirmed who do you guys think are the other 3? remember one of those has to be new since taking the train, while the other 2 have to be seen before that. My guesses are Nastasia (a wierd one i know but would explain how we still haven't battled her) Alexandra (she is something in the league based on her reactions on the train so either E8 or outright Champion) and Hasuki Blakeory (i mean come on, she was one of th protectors of Aevium in the past, she has got to be strong)

I mean, technically we batteled Nastasia in an earlier version, before it was cut. Yes, Jan might have retconned it, but who's the elite 8 seems to be a little too big to retcon, ya feel?