Tomas Elliot

Ok but one thing is "having more variety" and one thing is having no Rock-type at all. IMO, if their theme is Rock, the grunts should run almost exclusively Rock-types (thus resulting in extreme predictability) while the admins should have one powerful Rock-type signature Pokemon each, and then have the rest of their respective teams complement the Rock guy, covering its weaknesses and thus averting the "poor predictable rock" thing. THIS is how you "have more variety" when your theme is Rock. Having no Rock at all is not "having more variety", it is pretty much forgetting about the theme entirely... Solaris seems to be shaping up to follow this reasoning of mine, his two known Pokemon so far being Garchomp and Tyranitar unless I missed something, which means that, if/when a six-on-six battle with him happens down the road, he will most likely have a standard Sandstorm team in which Tyranitar would have more or less the role it also has in the competitive scene (or at least, I'll bet this was Ame's plan before Gen 6 came and messed up with the weather mechanics ), The others, however...

*thinks of ZEL and his (or should I say "their"?) eeveelutions* *thinks of Solaris and his Garchomp* *thinks of the chick with the Hydreigon* But if Ame herself said so...

Thinking back to this discussion, I remembered about this line, and I realized that I don't agree with it one bit. I won't explain why because that would require a post even longer than the one I made on page 2, and the examples I'd provide from Reborn would have nothing to do with the topic at hand (it would be nice to discuss this extensively in some other occasion, however)... But if you read this page from Tv Tropes, you'll probably imagine what my point of view is, or at least, you'll come very close... So yeah, this has nothing to do with anything that has been said up untill now, but I just felt like pointing it out.

That was just the first example that came to my mind, there are also other instances... But for this particular one I do see your point. It just felt a bit... Gah English is not my native language, words fail me... It felt as if your point was forgotten about when making the game, and then suddenly remembered twelve minutes before release, so that part was thrown in there in a rather gratuitous way. It felt rushed, but maybe rushed is not the most correct term. It gave a lot of "have I mentioned that people die in this game today?" vibes. Geez, I don't think I managed to make myself clear... ;-; EDIT: and now I am sounding like I want to criticize the game, when I really don't want to and, as far as I am concerned, the whole discussion was over with Ame's last post... Let's not turn this conversation into a debate on Reborn's overall quality! I'll admit that would be mostly my fault, but let's try and get back on track...

I swear it took me untill now to get the pun in the title of this topic...

This makes it all the more admirable how you managed to address everything as the story went on, without leaving any plot holes. Indeed it explains why the whole Team Meteor plot came out the way it did, but ehi, this "flaw" I pointed out is just like your sadism in giving us strong Pokemon and then taking them away in the next update: it's what makes Reborn, Reborn! Still, this opinion of mine is something I have had in mind for a long time (since I first played the game over a year ago, in fact), and I confess I was waiting for the right occasion to get it off my chest

The answers to these questions of yours are already in my previous post: in fact, they make up the very part you quoted, so I don't see the point in repeating myself. Besides, as I mentioned Ame (or whoever helps her with the plot) had the merit of addressing all the contraddictions caused by the "exaggerated darkness" I mentioned, and didn't leave any plot holes, so it's not like what I mentioned is a "problem" that can be fixed, as changing it would require a MASSIVE rewriting of the plot and really, nobody wants that. So yeah, mine wasn't a petition to change something, nor an attempt to win people to my cause: it was merely an opinion, and as such, I am not going to defend it. You agree with me? Good for you, You don't agree with me? Good for you. I am not changing my opinion either way, and I certainly wasn't trying to change yours. Oh and since it seems that while I was typing the boss herself took her time to address my post (which genuinely pleases me, I am saying this sincerely and without any sarcasm), allow me to clarify something: I am not saying that the extreme darkness is a bad thing. I am saying that sometimes Reborn as a whole took the "cheap" way to it: what I meant with the words "limitless stream of heinous acts" is that, in my opinion, instead of using quantity to hammer the point (as in, throw there A LOT of darker and edgier situations) we could have used quality (as in, throw in there A FEW darker and edgier situations, but expand on them a lot more) and the final result would have been the same. For example, I wish that Corey's suicide (one of the non-gratuitous violent moments in the game, and in fact one of the best and more emotionally intense moments of the game) had received more foreshadowing and more build up. But ehi, that's just me...

As I see this topic is already full of opinions posted from the point of view of average Pokemon games fans, I shall provide an opinion from a different point of view: that of a writer (because yes, I fancy myself to be a pretty good writer. I actually suck, but that's another story). Therefore, the comments you are about to read do NOT take into consideration the standard instances of the average player (as in, "I hate how in main games the teams that are supposed to be serious menaces usually use horridly weak Pokemon" and stuff like that), instead I will focus my reasoning exclusively on the narration aspect: in other words, I will analyze how effective the villainous team is in telling a story. Please do keep this in mind while reading. So, traditionally Pokemon games have been plagued by a lack of credible villains: in the first two generations, Team Rocket was infamous not only for the weakness of their Pokemon (which is an aspect that, I repeat, I am not going to take into consideration), but for the even more glaring weakness of its motives, which made their plot very difficult to buy in. Team Rocket wanted to steal Pokemon and sell them on the black market... In a world where a 10 YO kid can just grab a Pokeball and start catching Pokemon to his/her heart content, INCLUDING LEGENDARIES. This, along with the fact that legendaries themselves didn't play any relevant part in the story, made the plot of those games really really weak, but then again, that was mostly due to the fact that the plot wasn't very important to begin with back then, and it took a back seat compared to, well, "gotta catch them all!". Generation 3 marked the first attempt by Game Freak to give us villains that could be a major driving force in the plot, and that could be seen by players as genuinely heinous: enter Maxie and Archie, whose goal is to cause atrocious cataclysms to expand either the landmass or the sea... Why? Once again, the well-intentioned creators failed at giving us credible motives for the villains' actions, handwaving it all with a generic "I thought expanding the landmass/sea would benefit people". The premises were there, for once a story was actually being told... But then it fell flat, also because of the very simplicistic ending: "oh, a 10 YO kid saved the world by stopping the rampaging legends? Ok then, in such a case everything is fine! Maxie, Archie, you are forgiven! And you, kid hero, come challenge the Pokemon League!". A villainous team with an organic plan and a clear goal finally debuted in Generation 4: unfortunately, the goal itself was a rather cliché one. However, for the first time we were given a game in which the actions of the villains were the main driving force of the plot, even if most people tend to forget that because the cronic problems (absurdly weak teams for the baddies, the whole plot pretty much forgotten after the final showdown, with the player focusing once again on beating the Pokemon League as if nothing had happened) were still there. Generation 5 FINALLY gave us a plot that stays relevant from the beginning to the end, and a villain with a very credible goal and a very well tought plan. Sadly, B2/W2 were kinda a step back on this regard (as the aforementioned goal of the Big Bad went from a clever play on the mentality of Pokemon in general, to the generic "I am gonna destroy Unova for revenge, stop me if you can") when compared to B/W, but still, we can say Generation 5 was the first Pokemon game that was 100% succesful in telling a story: however, such success was a rather Phyrric victory, as Generation 6 brought us back to the usual format of villains having a generic goal and being pretty much forgotten after their plot is over, with the player going back to focus on the Pokemon League (at least there were two clever twists in the people for once ACKNOWLEDGING you as a hero, and one of the E4 being a member of the villainous team, even if this particular was rather downplayed and can be seen as one of the MANY plot holes that characterize X/Y). So, what am I trying to demonstrate with this reasoning of mine? I am trying to demonstrate that, Generation 5 aside, the Pokemon franchise has displayed a glaring lack of truly believable villains (and strong plots built around them) over the years. Because of this, many long-time fans of the series (such as myself) craved a more adult plot, with a more serious villainous team that could be a credible menace for the protagonist and the entire society... And when Pokemon Reborn came 'round and gave us just that, we rejoiced. However, the understandable enthusiasm has caused many players to overlook some flaws that Team Meteor still has. Namely, it's one flaw: the fear of repeating Game Freak's mistake, which leads to repeated exaggerations in the opposite direction. It's as if Ame (or whoever helps her with the plot) was hell bent into clogging the events with a limitless stream of heinous acts, with no apparent reason other that "I wouldn't want people to think Reborn is NOT darker and edgier!". I mean ok, in order to make a plot darker, you need eviler baddies. But some instances are really gratuitous, and without them the plot could have worked out just as well: for example, the mook horror show we get when storming the Giant Steelix base, with the Meteor Grunt we have come to know by name describing Saphira's attack on the Meteor main force, with A LOT of insistence on how many grunts died, didn't really serve any purpose other than reassuring the player that yes, Reborn is indeed darker and edgier, so don't worry, you are going to get your share of violence in this episode too. Of course, this is part of a general tendency in the whole game to sacrifice realism/credibility/friggin' common sense just for the sake of adding details that can make the plot darker (what with the line-up of the Gym Leaders, which are in theory a group of individuals that, in the Pokemon universe, share a rather important role for the whole society, including in its Reborn incarnation some kids who are locked up in an orphanage AND ABUSED BY THE HEAD OF THE STRUCTURE, and even a ghost), but still, if Team Meteor has a flaw, it is this: main series villainous teams are not credible because they are not dark and evil enough, Team Meteor sometimes exaggerates in the other direction. It is a honest mistake made with a precise plan in mind, and Ame (or whoever helps her with the plot) had the merit of properly addressing all the situation caused by this extreme "darkness and edginess", without leaving any plot holes... But still, I had to point it out: is Team Meteor a great villainous team? Yes it is. Is it better than the vast majority of main games baddies? Sure it is. But is it flawless? Hell no. In a way, I find B/W to actually be darker than Reborn, the same way Sonic Adventure 2 is darker than Shadow the Hedgehog: sure, the latter has murders and abuses on minors, but the former deconstructs the basic thematics of the franchise in a very clever way. And sometimes, a clever deconstruction does more than a hundred killings for a plot. tl;dr: praising what's good is fine, but pointing out what isn't is important too, because it sparks a discussion that leads to improvement. Don't let the understandable enthusiasm blind you

Oh I see... Well, too bad

Not gonna make it guys, my sincerest apologies. Give the Church my best regards...

Pokemon Blue was my first: Venusaur Lapras Ninetales (or Arcanine, whatever was the version exclusive, I honestly cannot remember...) Arbok Onix OMG OMG I GOT MEWTWO I'M SO COOL OMG OMG IMMA BEAT ERRYBUDY Good old times...

Well to be honest it is not true Heracross is better than Hariyama in terms of movepool: I mean yes, Heracross has more choices, but Hariyama has everything it needs, nothing more, nothing less. Early on it is invaluable against Cradily, later on its ability makes it great to take on the dreaded Ice and Fire gyms. Plus it has better bulk. So yeah, maybe Hariyama is not OU material, but does that really matter in-game? Don't look down on it!

Personally I am not too fond of excessively dark tones brought to Pokemon because... Well, that's not what the series is about really. When I want deep psychology, horrorific situations and people killed off I wantch Evangelion (and yes, this includes Reborn and some excessively dark points it has here and there, which I consider exaggerations). But this aside: if you really are planning to embark in a fangame project, is it wise to discuss the main twist of the plot with people on a forum before even getting tarted? You pretty much spoilered your own game, not to mention the risk of people (not necessarily members of this community, anyone drifting around Google can potentially see this page) stealing your idea...

Is this going to be on PO or Showdown? If on Showdown I'll consider it, if on PO I won't make it, as I have no PO in this computer...