Mashew Posted March 5, 2014 Author Share Posted March 5, 2014 This isn't a debate, it's a discussion about tiers. Now for the LAST time stop arguing and poking at one another and get back to tiers. Now, I added Blaziken to the potential list. Does anyone else have anything to say about klefki and what not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Emvee Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Klefki is pretty annoying, but only with Swagger. Maybe put Swagger on suspect list instead of Klefki? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chevaleresse Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 I'm not sure if swagger is gamebreaking enough, plus it might bring things with Own Tempo into the spotlight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamina Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Anything that makes the game less luck based and more skill based ( like banning swagger ) is fine by me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Emvee Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 I'm not sure if swagger is gamebreaking enough, plus it might bring things with Own Tempo into the spotlight. . http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Own_Tempo_%28ability%29 Here's a list of Own Tempo Pokemon. Nobody uses or would use any of this stuff in OU with the ability Own Tempo and also I agree with what Kamina says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodaku Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Ok, on the way of Klefki... annoying... maybe? though does that warrant it going to Ubers... OH NO... that thing will barely survive, EQ and [insert fire move here] destroys it (unless it brings up some kind of walls) annoyance is the only thing it has going for it really... bring in a ground type and klefki is bound to flee from you... and on the idea of swagger... well we would probably need to ban all other confusion moves a bit... though i am fine with keeping swagger in... its a Risk vs Reward move... You give your opponent an attack boost and pray he hits himself... or you get swept to death by what you did (unless its a Sp. attacker). though hitting yourself in confusion after a swagger is painful, (RIP Aegislash... one hitting yourself) it won't stop the problem of parafusion... its been a thing for a long time so you know.. eh... if Klefki had Parafusitract with a bit of Flinch... THEN it would warrant an 100% ban.. but for now... both things aren't THAT bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chevaleresse Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 (edited) http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Own_Tempo_%28ability%29 Here's a list of Own Tempo Pokemon. Nobody uses or would use any of this stuff in OU with the ability Own Tempo and also I agree with what Kamina says. /shrug It's annoying, but not that OP in my opinion. A lum berry (t-wave->earthquake/flare blitz/etc->sad klefki) kind of wrecks klefki's whole thing, but then again, if you don't have a lum berry, you're kind of fucked, so idk. Abstaining on this one. Edited March 5, 2014 by KingMurdoc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Amethyst Posted March 5, 2014 Administrators Share Posted March 5, 2014 Placeholder for a later post. Some of these arguments are weak as fuck. Either provide EVIDENCE and not an opinion or shut up. There's no point in doing a placeholder when most people won't look back at it, and especially when it doesn't get done in a timely manner In lack of that, your post looks somewhat hypocritical. I've given really good reasons as to why Genesect shouldn't be banned. I haven't seen you give one other than "it's an obvious freelo train" which in my opinion is a bogus claim if you can't back it up. Plus what are you even talking about? Genesect has always had one weakness and we never banned it in Gen 5. And in Gen 6, when it loses 2 resistances you want to ban it hello? Logic101. And I have no idea what you mean by "too many things better than others" and "better defenses" that just made absolutely no sense. Despite losing two resistances, I think Genesect specifically in Reborn has gotten stronger with 6th gen because of the weather change. Previously we had an over-abundance of weather teams which would almost be guaranteed to run swift swim/sand stream/chlorophyll sweepers that had no problem out-speeding and striking down a typical Genescarf set. Since we no longer have that constant overflow of speed it's much easier now than it was last gen for Genesect to find room to get its momentum going. This is the main reason that my stance on Genesect has changed. Previously I defended it staying in OU but in this meta, I do believe it's problematic. Incidentally, now that I think about it, I can pretty much say the exact same thing about Blaziken. So although I would typically want to keep Reborn's options more available than Smogon's, I think perhaps we do need to consider Blaziken as well. However, since this is a point of contention, I suggest we move forward with these changes, sans Genesect for now, and spend more time deciding what to do with Blaziken and Gensect. This way we can at least get some tiers going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Emvee Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Despite losing two resistances, I think Genesect specifically in Reborn has gotten stronger with 6th gen because of the weather change. Previously we had an over-abundance of weather teams which would almost be guaranteed to run swift swim/sand stream/chlorophyll sweepers that had no problem out-speeding and striking down a typical Genescarf set. Since we no longer have that constant overflow of speed it's much easier now than it was last gen for Genesect to find room to get its momentum going. This is the main reason that my stance on Genesect has changed. Previously I defended it staying in OU but in this meta, I do believe it's problematic. You have a point that weather in the last generation made it possible to beat Genesect a lot easier, however, people didn't run weather teams just for the sake of beating Genesect. Plus, in this generation the use of items such as Damp Rock allow for extended weather conditions. I feel like the newly added stuff are trying to outweigh the balance scale of limited weather, so there would be new ways to take down Genesect, as well as the old ways from Gen 5. It is because of the limited weather that many people are reluctant to run all out weather teams like they used to (not because they are incapable of doing so, but because they don't want to), but it is entirely possible to bring that back with the use of weather extending items. I myself have made a rain team with Damp Rock Politoed for this generation, and it does extremely well in the meta game, and has no problems with Genesect at all. People not using it doesn't make Genesect broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DGlalie Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 I agree Mega Blaziken should be banned in OU but don't let the Blaziken should go into UBER Its not that i have a Blaziken, its way weaker than all of UBER and besides doesn't agree that blaziken can't defeat when the boost speed make him/her faster right ? theres lot of move that can defeated blaziken easily like uhm : Aqua Jet ,Extreme Speed , even Fake Out etc.. that makes first move ... and beside its defend on player who can think fast how to defeat Blaziken uhm well its my opinions only ... so i hope blaziken will not be UBER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beba Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 +1 252 Atk Genesect U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Mewtwo Y: 434-512 (122.9 - 145%) -- guaranteed OHKO 68 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Rayquaza: 352-416 (100.2 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO Let Genesect finnaly go home where it belongs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diana Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 @Glalie- I don't think there's actually a way at the moment to ban Mega Blaziken only to ubers without banning the base pokemon itself, it'll either be both or neither-- unless you can just ban Blazikenite on it, but that's Swimming/Nyunyu's territory. I'll agree with banning Genesect, to at least see how it'll change OU and fare in ubers. Remember that these changes can eventually be reversed, as well; if eventually people vote to bring Gensect back to OU, then it's very possible. shaymin-s for ou 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Emvee Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 This was a really fun discussion :] although I wish there were more valid points argued against my statements it woulda been more fun that way. :[ GG everyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamitako Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 @Glalie You do know Blaziken is quite capable of sweeping entire Uber teams easily, yes? In OU the only things that can take it down on equal footing are Talonflame and Azumarill (And they are both wary of switching in if it has Thunder Punch), Chandelure could also take it if it's only running two STAB attacks and it doesn't switch for whatever reason (Since Chandelure is immune to both Fire and Fighting) But that situation is unlikely and Chandelure is rare in OU As for the rest: I saw a comment somewhere, can't remember where though, saying that a person got into competative battling this generation hoping for a more balanced metagame. They were disappointed to find that it was just like last generation with everyone running a Blaziken or Genesect It is a major problem that these Pokemon are so common. That we have to build entire teams around countering them or run a certain Pokemon *CoughTalonflamecough* to beat them. And even then, you can't be certain your opponent isn't running X moveset over Y moveset. That can get your entire team swept It isn't a matter of "get better at predicting", otherwise people far better than anyone here wouldn't be experiencing these problems as well. Pokemon with such ability and frequency aren't just over used, they're over powered (Ouch, that was a pun...) Bur that's jsut my opinion, and I can't even really speak from personal experience. I have yet to encounter a Blaziken my Tyranitar can't beat. And have yet to encounter a Genesect at all And onto Klefki: I really wouldn't know if it's problematic or not, in Y I usually just Earthquake it with my Hydreigon and it goes down. But from what I gather it's really just annoying, not an actual threat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2tousent Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 D: why is everyone ignoring rotom wash? that thing is way worse than genesect >.> it needs to be banned, it can learn willo, only has 1 weakness, just volt switches arround and has imunity to all entry hazards exept rocks, wich isnt even super efective... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Emvee Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 D: why is everyone ignoring rotom wash? that thing is way worse than genesect >.> it needs to be banned, it can learn willo, only has 1 weakness, just volt switches arround and has imunity to all entry hazards exept rocks, wich isnt even super efective... Please, come to the table with experience before suggesting to ban Rotom-W. You sound really silly, no offense. Anyways, the reason being is that Rotom-W is just not even close to being broken. It has way too many counters, and way too many checks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamitako Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Yes. Rotom-W has a million and one thing that stop it. You don't have to hit it with a Grass attack to take it down. Virtually any bulky sweeper that isn't weak to Water can take it. And if it resists Rotom-W's STABs (I.E. Is a Grass type), being bulky is not even a requirement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noir Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 (edited) People have problems with Rotom-W? That's just entirely odd. Edited March 5, 2014 by YagamiNoir4896 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapphire Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 /me watches in despair as Reborn turns into Smogon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamitako Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 (edited) By Smogon, do you mean banning things that we consider overpowered but you don't? Or do you mean arguing like entitled babies? EDIT: And when I say entitled babies I include myself in that analysis, she can be quite pompous at times Edited March 5, 2014 by MasterWeavile898 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 I'm surprised no one is talking about Mega Kangaskhan, or Mega Lucario yet, I don't think Mega Gengar was mentioned yet either. But I may have just missed something someone said. As far as Mega Lucario is concerned, I'm perfectly fine with it staying OU, however, I can see it being Ubers because of how well it runs both Physical and Special sets. You won't know what set it's running until you see it set up, and often it might be too late to react. If you see one and think "Oh, it's gonna be physical, so I'll just switch to my physical wall and cripple it." Boom, Nasty Plot, and vice versa. I can't even think of much that even walls Mega Lucario either, besides Jellicent walling the Physical variant.(Unless it carries Crunch). The same argument has probably been made elsewhere, so I won't really elaborate any further. On to Mega Kangaskhan. I'll be honest, I don't have much experience with 6gen battling, but from what I have experienced, combined with what I've seen from popular wifi battlers(examples being shofu, pokeaimMD, etc) this thing is extremely powerful. Every battle I've seen with it before its ban, it almost always stomped through the opponents team. Granted there were a few times where it failed to do so. Obviously, my word isn't to be trusted as much as someone who has battled a lot. I'm basically just typing from what I remember. I'm sure someone will address these Pokemon better than I can. That being said, the other Pokemon should be addressed as well. That's why they're suspect to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Emvee Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 (edited) /me watches in despair as Reborn turns into Smogon. And what's wrong with that? I'm sure you probably wouldn't know much about competitive battling without their analysis on movesets. I'm surprised no one is talking about Mega Kangaskhan, or Mega Lucario yet, I don't think Mega Gengar was mentioned yet either. But I may have just missed something someone said. As far as Mega Lucario is concerned, I'm perfectly fine with it staying OU, however, I can see it being Ubers because of how well it runs both Physical and Special sets. You won't know what set it's running until you see it set up, and often it might be too late to react. If you see one and think "Oh, it's gonna be physical, so I'll just switch to my physical wall and cripple it." Boom, Nasty Plot, and vice versa. I can't even think of much that even walls Mega Lucario either, besides Jellicent walling the Physical variant.(Unless it carries Crunch). The same argument has probably been made elsewhere, so I won't really elaborate any further. On to Mega Kangaskhan. I'll be honest, I don't have much experience with 6gen battling, but from what I have experienced, combined with what I've seen from popular wifi battlers(examples being shofu, pokeaimMD, etc) this thing is extremely powerful. Every battle I've seen with it before its ban, it almost always stomped through the opponents team. Granted there were a few times where it failed to do so. Obviously, my word isn't to be trusted as much as someone who has battled a lot. I'm basically just typing from what I remember. I'm sure someone will address these Pokemon better than I can. That being said, the other Pokemon should be addressed as well. That's why they're suspect to begin with. The Megas listed don't even need to be mentioned. They're broken and should be banned. :] Also I have pokeaim on skype he's a cool guy. Edited March 5, 2014 by So Heroic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamitako Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 I'm with So Heroic on this one. Those megas are all clearly broken and need to go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 And what's wrong with that? I'm sure you probably wouldn't know much about competitive battling without their analysis on movesets. The Megas listed don't even need to be mentioned. They're broken and should be banned. :] Also I have pokeaim on skype he's a cool guy. Fair enough. If everyone doesn't feel the need to mention them because of that, then their fate is settled. So, moving on from that... What about the current Ubers suspect to move down to OU? Zygarde comes to mind. If I recall correctly, it wasn't Ubers material at all. And what about Manaphy? Is the weather nerf so impacting that it warrants Manaphy to be moved down? AND WHAT ABOUT DARKRAI?!?! *shot* Joking aside, Manaphy should spark some decent discussion hopefully. I forgot if there were more in Ubers suspect to move down and don't feel like looking. I think Lunari mentioned Skymin? I'm not sure if it's on the suspect list, but it couldn't hurt to talk about it anyway. Edit: It was Kyurem-B. But I believe most people would agree it should be moved down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamitako Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 I don't know much about Manaphy, it's never struck me as being very strong, but I haven't really seen it used much either Kyurem-B may have an exceedingly high base stat total, but it's movepool is so severely lacking it's not even funny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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