Tier Discussion (OU/Ubers)

[Kamina]

manaphy has been doing pretty fine in PO and smogon. At one point it was even considered UU in PO. Only thing going for it is tail glow but lacks the speed to effectively sweep most teams. Also, it has the same base stat as pokes such as celebii,mew,shaymin and jirachi

also @ Beba

I am neutral about a genesect ban but let us be honest, i think any pokemon with ice beam is going to 1 hit ko rayquaza

[Sapphire]

And what's wrong with that? I'm sure you probably wouldn't know much about competitive battling without their analysis on movesets.

The Megas listed don't even need to be mentioned. They're broken and should be banned. :] Also I have pokeaim on skype he's a cool guy.

Pfft. Me? Use Smogon? Please, who do you take me for? Weavile-the second one.

[Cowtao]

I'm actually gonna defend Heroic's statement here. There a more things now that put a stop to Rotom-W. Kyurem-B puts a stop to a lot of moves that Rotom can do and can threaten to setup a Sub or hit with Earth Power with Teravolt. Excadrill also threatens Rotom with an OHKO with Mold Breaker and EQ. Both must be wary of Will-O-Wisp however. (Assault Vest Exca bypasses any chance of being OHKO'd by Hydro Pump) You can't really stop Rotom from using it's moves, you will just have to learn how to play around it which itself isn't very hard as Rotom's move set is very predictable coming from 3 Metas of using it's trademark sets.

[Swimming95]

*quickly interjecting on an old post... yes nyu and I can ban item combinations. we can also just ban the item all together but if you want to run a blazikenite squirtle be my guest

[Shamitako]

Is it possible to ban an ability on a specific Pokemon?

That would technically make it possible to ban Blaziken without abnning the mega (ban Speed Boost Blaziken but allow Blazikenite and Blaze Blaziken) However, I'm not going to push for that as it seems like most people would disagree

[Tempest]

Probably possible, but I don't think it should happen. The ability is part of the Pokemon. The only case where banning abilities is acceptable is when it's teir wide and not just one Pokemon specifically. (I.e. Moody, but I can't remember if it's still banned)

[Beba]

also @ Beba

I am neutral about a genesect ban but let us be honest, i think any pokemon with ice beam is going to 1 hit ko rayquaza

True,but there are really few who could have a chance to ko Rayquaza with ice beam,while it has one DD up and Genesect is one of them.

@MasterWeavile898

Those are my thoughts about Blaziken too.Allow speed boost Blaziken only in ubers.

[Chevaleresse]

I support banning Speed Boost Blaziken but allowing Blaze Blaziken, since the only reason Blaziken is OU/ubers is Speed Boost combined with strong Attack.

[Ikaru]

/me watches in despair as Reborn turns into Smogon.

Pfft. Me? Use Smogon? Please, who do you take me for? Weavile-the second one.

Don't you dare bring unneeded hostility back into this topic after THREE OF US have had to stop it already.

[Lord Emvee]

Fair enough. If everyone doesn't feel the need to mention them because of that, then their fate is settled.

So, moving on from that... What about the current Ubers suspect to move down to OU? Zygarde comes to mind. If I recall correctly, it wasn't Ubers material at all. And what about Manaphy? Is the weather nerf so impacting that it warrants Manaphy to be moved down? AND WHAT ABOUT DARKRAI?!?! *shot* Joking aside, Manaphy should spark some decent discussion hopefully. I forgot if there were more in Ubers suspect to move down and don't feel like looking. I think Lunari mentioned Skymin? I'm not sure if it's on the suspect list, but it couldn't hurt to talk about it anyway.

Edit: It was Kyurem-B. But I believe most people would agree it should be moved down.

Yeah I agree, the current Pokemon that are listed to move down from Uber to OU are perfectly all right. Also I brought up a discussion last night about Darkrai and Shaymin-S on the server, and we all had some nice discussions about it. Though, it's kinda obvious that Shaymin-S is way too overpowered for the OU Meta-Game due to Serene Grace (Seed Slare SpDef Drops, and Air Slash), along with good coverage moves like Earth Power, etc. I don't think that could be considered as suspect, but Darkrai is iffy. I can see potential OU counters/checks like Conkeldurr, Mega Heracross, SpDef Hippowdon, Mandibuzz, Clefable, Talonflame, Scarf/SleepTalk users, etc. The added Fairy type to Gen 6 does allow for resistance against Darkrai's main STAB as well as its commonly seen Focus Blast. Although, moving Genesect to Ubers and putting Darkrai on suspect is kinda counterproductive, as keeping them both in OU would probably be a better balance.

Edited March 5, 2014 by So Heroic

[slant]

We should also discuss banning moody. We all know that with the right combination of boosts it can sweep through an entire team, but the difference between moody sweepers and other sweepers is that it is entirely luck based. By getting rid of moody, the metagame will become more about skill than leaving players at the mercy of the rng.

[Lord Emvee]

We should also discuss banning moody. We all know that with the right combination of boosts it can sweep through an entire team, but the difference between moody sweepers and other sweepers is that it is entirely luck based. By getting rid of moody, the metagame will become more about skill than leaving players at the mercy of the rng.

Agreed. Even though it can be quite fun, Moody is quite cancerous, and generally Moody users win by luck. There is no counter to to it, other than Unaware, and nobody is gonna run Unaware Quagsire or Clefable just to beat Moody. It's a no-skill tactic and should be banned.

EDIT: Yeah Unaware doesn't work either if Moody Smeargle Baton Passes into a Pokemon with Mold Breaker, like Haxorus for example.

Edited March 5, 2014 by So Heroic

[Rodaku]

As much as i love Darkrai... it shouldn't be OU... that thing is scary once set out cause it puts your opponent on the back foot... once you send it in on something that can't do much to it then your opponent is stuck, they have to either Keep the pokemon in hoping the opponent will use Dark Void so they can safely switch in something to beat Darkrai cause of sleep clause... or Switch in early hoping that it only sets up... Darkrai also has an incredible speed to help it sweep stuff unless your opponent carrys a priority move of some sort. It also has BoltBeam... the best coverage in the game, adding this thing is like keeping Genesect in OU..

Speaking of Genesect on OU... nah it should be Uber... with weather nerfs it can work its wonders... yes the weather rocks will keep weather longer but it will still run out at one point... once the weather runs out genesect just comes in, kill the weather user or anything that would use the weather to its advantage or just set up since the weather user won't stand a chance most of the time. Genesect also having a such a huge varied movepool and the stats to do whatever it wants, Causes major problems cause no matter how you see Genesect on the enemy team, you won't know how to stop it until it actually comes into play, And that still won't help tell you what its gonna do. Genesect may have lost resistances to Ghost and dark... but that doesn't hurt it a lot.. it will still One hit dark types and it doesn't care about ghosts at all unless they carry Will-O-Wisp and even THEN its still gonna be able to do anything. The one biggest problem with Genesect though is that it brings the Big question... "why should i use X when Genesect can do the same thing but still have something else up its sleeve."

[Kamina]

moody makes me moody

i guess there is also haze or perish song but ...

no Heavy offensive team (whithout a politoed) will carry that.

as stated i'm for anything that makes competitive play less favorable to luck

so i vote yea for it being gone

[Ikaru]

To be fair, I thought Clefable was pretty good now, but I could have sworn that was already banned along with general evasion stuff when we went through that whole ordeal last time...

[Joker]

Yeah I agree, the current Pokemon that are listed to move down from Uber to OU are perfectly all right. Also I brought up a discussion last night about Darkrai and Shaymin-S on the server, and we all had some nice discussions about it. Though, it's kinda obvious that Shaymin-S is way too overpowered for the OU Meta-Game due to Serene Grace (Seed Slare SpDef Drops, and Air Slash), along with good coverage moves like Earth Power, etc. I don't think that could be considered as suspect, but Darkrai is iffy. I can see potential OU counters/checks like Conkeldurr, Mega Heracross, SpDef Hippowdon, Mandibuzz, Clefable, Talonflame, Scarf/SleepTalk users, etc. The added Fairy type to Gen 6 does allow for resistance against Darkrai's main STAB as well as its commonly seen Focus Blast. Although, moving Genesect to Ubers and putting Darkrai on suspect is kinda counterproductive, as keeping them both in OU would probably be a better balance.

To be honest, I'm all for testing Darkrai in OU. I usually just joke about it because if I don't then I get shit for it. I would agree that keeping Genesect in OU would be necessary in balancing it out. However the odds of it actually getting suspect are very low. But I do think it would be worth a shot. It's not like it can't be moved right back up if it does prove to be too overcentralizing.

As for Moody... I was under the impression that it was banned a while back. Hmm, well if it isn't, then I'm certainly not against banning it. I agree that it is very luck based and anything luck based is bad in Pokemon imo. No one likes lucky crits, or insert status hax here(Freeze from Ice beam for example). But those are things we can't change, Moody is, however, something we can do something about. I'm assuming it would be more of an issue in lower tiers though.

[Diana]

The only reason I bring up Skymin, other than I love it, is the fact that it's really kind of frail- anything faster than it (and face it, quite a few things are with the whole scarved revenge killer thing) can take it out with a strong enough hit- anything running Ice Shard will force it to die or run away. With new things such as Talonflame and Aegislash around, it'll have a harder time staying in to complete a sweep.

I also see where it's very, very strong. 60% flinch chances and Sp. Def drops make it hard to STAY in on as well, even with numerous checks and counters. I think, though, it's at least up for further discussion at a later time. Talonflame hard counters any variant not running HP Rock (and who does?) while not wasting any time itself.

tl;dr we can further discuss it later at least c:

later thoughy- i support discussing darkrai further. it's quite frail and there's quite a few things capable of handling it in this metagame

[Ikaru]

I think we should keep this limited to the things we've suggested for now, so as to prevent further disorganisation.
I only replied to the Moody thing because that was something I thought was already banned and shouldn't have been unbanned.

[Huggyboo]

Kinda late to the party so i'm gonna post as i read from the beginning of the thread.

The initial OU > Ubers and Ubers > OU changes i find perfectly fine.

I agree with most people stating to ban Blaziken as well as it's mega form, since i don't believe we do any ability banning (cause banning speed boost-iken would really solve the normal pokemon's problem).

Genesect i feel would allow a bit more change up in the reborn meta game if he was bumped into ubers. I feel the point of our own tiers was to have more originality in TEAMS rather than MOVESETS. If someone truly wants to run a OU Genesect so bad i think he's OU on showdown now (cause last time i remember, wasn't he made ubers in 5G?).

Just confirming, both Mega Mewtwo's are Ubers correct, also where does regular Mewto stand?

I've never really had to deal with Darkrai but i don't remember if it was OU or Ubers in 5G. With fairies being a counter and sleep clause almost always being a thing i feel it would be fine in OU, but wherever it already is, is probably fine.

Moody getting banned from everything but Ubers would be nice. There are a few people that i've encountered that run Moody teams and after fightin them i would lose any motivation to keep battling for the rest of the day (it's always just sub, protect, get moody boosts, and then sweep Q.Q)

I can't really think of anything else atm but i'll keep an eye as we all continue the discussion

[Rodaku]

Because i am bored and thats i will just give my few thoughts on each all the pokemon on the list because why not (even genesect and blaziken agains...)

So lets start with Ubers to OU

Manaphy - Manaphy was really considered strong last gen to get to ubers is the sweeping potential it had in rain... and with rain nerfed... well... Manaphy felt the pain too.... least it still has its Cute looks and some power to it (and heart swap) ((To note i have no huge opinion on manaphy so but i don't see it being a huge threat))

Zygarde - ... i really don't see why he should be in Ubers in the first place... Zygarde in my opinion is a Poor Mans Garchomp.. What Zygarde has over Garhomp is that it has better defenses and a bit better Sp. Def... but what it lacks.. is the attack of said Garchomp... heck its slower as well... and its Sp. attack is only 1 point higher... ONE POINT... and when you compare the speed of Mega Garchomp to Zygarde.. zygarde is faster... by only 3 points... its ability... well lets just say that it doesn't have one cause its useless UNLESS the enemy carrys a Yveltal or Xerneas... so yea... he should have been in OU the whole time... Ubers is just too much for him.

Kyurem-B - It has Damage.... like.. TONS OF DAMAGE... but what it lacks in return... A move pool to actually use said damage... and with the addition to fairys... that move pool got a bit worse for it... but only a bit.. its still good but i am leaning towards it going OU somewhat (though that might be because i like how it looks... and that its an ice type legendary)

Now to OU to Ubers

Mega Kangaskhan - 2 hits... Every attack... is 2 hits (unless its Double hit... then we get some shenanigans). But yea Mega Kangaskhan got that one ability now that just made it WAY too good. stats wise is eh but that ability just means its doing double the damage with whatever move it uses (not including the chances of it criting) oh and don't forget if the move has a secoundary effect, it will still go off... Power-UP punch? hit once, get a boost, Hit harder Get another boost, you just now used Swords danced and punched your opponent to death (or near it)

Mega Gengar - Remember how when Chadelure had Shadow tag and we didn't complain about it (except for the who just came to reborn) same can't be said about Mega Gengar... it has a lot more better stats then Chandelure (WAY more speed and Sp. Attack) and it doesn't care what can come it cause its move pool is diverse enough to handle any Situation...

Mega Blaziken - Speed... more damage and some bulk to go with it... no weather can stop it now cause of the weather nerfs... it now got baton pass to leave a situation to someone else suited for the situation (ala Genesect)... yea i think it needs to go a bit (sorry may)

Mega Lucario - Eh... i kinda see why but i don't see why... my opinion for Mega lucario for now is... it can stay in OU for all i care but then again i haven't a problem with Mega Lucario...

Genesect - i am just say this right now, at first i was like, 'eh' but after reading all these posts... (and knowing how much pain and suffering this thing causes) i do wish it to be gone somewhat... its got the 'jayce' effect (or in non LoL terms) aka 'Jack of all trades, Master of all' it can do almost everything you want it to do and it will succeed 99.9 times out of 100... that is a Very bad thing... and every time i see a post defending Genesect and read it... most of the time... its causing me to want it banned more seeing as it tells me NOTHING at all about why it should stay... only more reasons to GO.

[Sapphire]

On the topic of MegaKhan-it's NOT double damage. It's an extra 50%.

[Wes]

Because i am bored and thats i will just give my few thoughts on each all the pokemon on the list because why not (even genesect and blaziken agains...)

So lets start with Ubers to OU

Manaphy - Manaphy was really considered strong last gen to get to ubers is the sweeping potential it had in rain... and with rain nerfed... well... Manaphy felt the pain too.... least it still has its Cute looks and some power to it (and heart swap) ((To note i have no huge opinion on manaphy so but i don't see it being a huge threat))

Weather was nerfed hard so while it does still have Tail Glow and Heart Swap, it lacks reliable Hydration and can be status'd out if played well. Not really a problem anymore.

Zygarde - ... i really don't see why he should be in Ubers in the first place... Zygarde in my opinion is a Poor Mans Garchomp.. What Zygarde has over Garhomp is that it has better defenses and a bit better Sp. Def... but what it lacks.. is the attack of said Garchomp... heck its slower as well... and its Sp. attack is only 1 point higher... ONE POINT... and when you compare the speed of Mega Garchomp to Zygarde.. zygarde is faster... by only 3 points... its ability... well lets just say that it doesn't have one cause its useless UNLESS the enemy carrys a Yveltal or Xerneas... so yea... he should have been in OU the whole time... Ubers is just too much for him.

Zygarde is a mediocre legend at best. It has amazing offensive typing, but lacks everything to support it. Like said above, it is a weaker Garchomp with DDance added, but still gets #rekt .

Kyurem-B - It has Damage.... like.. TONS OF DAMAGE... but what it lacks in return... A move pool to actually use said damage... and with the addition to fairys... that move pool got a bit worse for it... but only a bit.. its still good but i am leaning towards it going OU somewhat (though that might be because i like how it looks... and that its an ice type legendary)

Kyurem B had problems even in Gen 5. It was strong, but not nearly as much as it's counterpart Kyurem W. The typing is good offensively, but Ice has so many weaknesses that are common meta offensive typings it's rediculous. It also lacked the Speed to deal with things like Terrakion and the like and would then get 1HKO'd by a CC.

Now to OU to Ubers

Mega Kangaskhan - 2 hits... Every attack... is 2 hits (unless its Double hit... then we get some shenanigans). But yea Mega Kangaskhan got that one ability now that just made it WAY too good. stats wise is eh but that ability just means its doing double the damage with whatever move it uses (not including the chances of it criting) oh and don't forget if the move has a secoundary effect, it will still go off... Power-UP punch? hit once, get a boost, Hit harder Get another boost, you just now used Swords danced and punched your opponent to death (or near it)

Powe-Up Punch gives it's +2 every turn as well as hitting twice. Enough said.

Mega Gengar - Remember how when Chadelure had Shadow tag and we didn't complain about it (except for the who just came to reborn) same can't be said about Mega Gengar... it has a lot more better stats then Chandelure (WAY more speed and Sp. Attack) and it doesn't care what can come it cause its move pool is diverse enough to handle any Situation...

Chandelure may not have been complained about, but that didn't make it any less broken. It was a guarunteed revenge kill so long as you were smart enough to send it in on the right thing. Gengar is the same thing but with much higher stats, like said above. If Chandelure is broken, so is Gengar. Especially considering Gengar has a turn of Levitate if you choose to switch it in before Megaevolving and replacing it with ST.

Mega Blaziken - Speed... more damage and some bulk to go with it... no weather can stop it now cause of the weather nerfs... it now got baton pass to leave a situation to someone else suited for the situation (ala Genesect)... yea i think it needs to go a bit (sorry may)

As much as I love Blaziken, it's still broken. If Speed Boost Blaziken is broken, then its stronger Mega Evo most definately is.

Mega Lucario - Eh... i kinda see why but i don't see why... my opinion for Mega lucario for now is... it can stay in OU for all i care but then again i haven't a problem with Mega Lucario...

The reason Mega Luc is a problem is that after 1 Nasty Plot, it 2HKO's everything(at least) in the meta. That includes Chansey. It also has a good speed stat and typing to support itself.

Genesect - i am just say this right now, at first i was like, 'eh' but after reading all these posts... (and knowing how much pain and suffering this thing causes) i do wish it to be gone somewhat... its got the 'jayce' effect (or in non LoL terms) aka 'Jack of all trades, Master of all' it can do almost everything you want it to do and it will succeed 99.9 times out of 100... that is a Very bad thing... and every time i see a post defending Genesect and read it... most of the time... its causing me to want it banned more seeing as it tells me NOTHING at all about why it should stay... only more reasons to GO.

Honestly I don't know what state Genesect is in at the moment. It has an amazing movepool, great stats, an ability that make it even stronger, and a typing that only has 1 weakness and a shitton of resistances. Broken/Balanced? I dunno. But it's certainly an amazing pokemon.

Replies are inside quote in bold. If I missed something or am disagreed with, discuss.

[Cowtao]

@Wes, About that for your bolded responses. >>;

On Mega Lucario, technically there is ONE pokemon that can stomach 3 hits from Mega-Luca at +2 from a special variant. Assault Vest Goodra, while not common can still stomach a Flash Cannon, Dark Pulse, or Aura Sphere and can retaliate back with EQ or Fire Blast. While this sounds good, this is one counter out of over 60+ Pokemon in OU. It's moves won't even OHKO Mega Lucario so it's not gonna be worth much unless you have a priority attacker faster than Mega-Luca.

On Manaphy, some people have actually gotten smart and instead of using Tail Glow, copied the Crocune set from Suincune and applied it to Manaphy but with Rain Dance instead of Sleep Talk. While this isn't relevant, and will most likely never be seen often in Reborn OU, it still is a worthwhile mention.

Kyurem-B had no problems from my recollection. While it was strong, the only real viable moves that it had to boost it's performance were Dragon Claw, Outrage, and Fusion Bolt. If it had achieve Fusion Flare or something physical Ice move, then it would be OP. Unfortunately it didn't get that.

[Chevaleresse]

@Wes, About that for your bolded responses. >>;

On Mega Lucario, technically there is ONE pokemon that can stomach 3 hits from Mega-Luca at +2 from a special variant. Assault Vest Goodra, while not common can still stomach a Flash Cannon, Dark Pulse, or Aura Sphere and can retaliate back with EQ or Fire Blast. While this sounds good, this is one counter out of over 60+ Pokemon in OU. It's moves won't even OHKO Mega Lucario so it's not gonna be worth much unless you have a priority attacker faster than Mega-Luca.

On Manaphy, some people have actually gotten smart and instead of using Tail Glow, copied the Crocune set from Suincune and applied it to Manaphy but with Rain Dance instead of Sleep Talk. While this isn't relevant, and will most likely never be seen often in Reborn OU, it still is a worthwhile mention.

Kyurem-B had no problems from my recollection. While it was strong, the only real viable moves that it had to boost it's performance were Dragon Claw, Outrage, and Fusion Bolt. If it had achieve Fusion Flare or something physical Ice move, then it would be OP. Unfortunately it didn't get that.

I'm currently trying to test a Power Herb/Freeze Shock set, since Freeze Shock is physical.

[Wes]

@Wes, About that for your bolded responses. >>;

On Mega Lucario, technically there is ONE pokemon that can stomach 3 hits from Mega-Luca at +2 from a special variant. Assault Vest Goodra, while not common can still stomach a Flash Cannon, Dark Pulse, or Aura Sphere and can retaliate back with EQ or Fire Blast. While this sounds good, this is one counter out of over 60+ Pokemon in OU. It's moves won't even OHKO Mega Lucario so it's not gonna be worth much unless you have a priority attacker faster than Mega-Luca.

It's good that there is something, but another thing comes into play there: Overcentralization. If it gets to a point where only one or two things can deal with something and they're used only for that reason, that's overcentralizing a portion of the meta and that's means for bans of the threat. That's what happened in Gen 4 with Salamence.