Veterans Azeria Posted October 10, 2018 Veterans Share Posted October 10, 2018 7 minutes ago, Foamy said: Which of his criticisms were truly valid? I only heard him complain about things that were out of development's control (episode release times) or things that stemmed from his own personal shortcomings (literally everything else). Idk I'd say him complaining about the ridiculous length of the post gauntlet section was perfectly valid and even correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fireguy Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 48 minutes ago, Azery then said: Idk I'd say him complaining about the ridiculous length of the post gauntlet section was perfectly valid and even correct. hm yeah I liked the section probably more then others since I had no trouble with the gauntlet and was in a much better mood because of it but I'll say it was far too long. With me going through rather quickly and not getting lost after getting out of the black hole I still had 15 minutes + left of dialog coming around to 40 odd minutes left of pure talking which you can't really or shouldn't skip since you'll be missing out on stuff, the one thing that I can really say is that it's his fault for finding it hard since he doesn't sidequest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Drakyle Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 2 hours ago, Foamy said: Which of his criticisms were truly valid? I only heard him complain about things that were out of development's control (episode release times) or things that stemmed from his own personal shortcomings (literally everything else). i bet one of those things is: "the game is too hard" which isn't valid as with any game if you try to brute force it ignoring the game mechanics of battles you will struggle, if memory serves when he faced Adrienn, he used a charizard with like 3 fire moves and tried the same move twice even though it said the move had no effect which would tell you enough to say the field is changing it dont use that move. hell the game would be half as difficult for him if he even made an effort to understand the field effects of the fields he will be spending time in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foamy Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 The thing with the huge amount of dialogue is that the cutscene in the Glass Workstation was a culmination of many foreshadowed events throughout the entire game; it's going to be expository and there's no getting around that. As we approach the end of the game, we're going to get a lot of these long revelation-type cutscenes as the story cashes in on all of the buildup and foreshadowing that it's been leading to. Could all of this info have been better spaced out throughout the episode instead of in one gigantic dialogue? Possibly. For instance, the backstory of Radomus and the keys could have been saved until everyone was back in Calcenon. But even as is, I think it's perfectly tolerable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIP Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 I think Shofu likes the game but he isn't just invested in it anymore. He calls trash every game so i don't think he means that when he calls that this game, he is just angry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 11 hours ago, Foamy said: Which of his criticisms were truly valid? I only heard him complain about things that were out of development's control (episode release times) or things that stemmed from his own personal shortcomings (literally everything else). All of it honestly is pretty valid including the developer's control of time releases. The game really does treat you like you're supposed to remember stuff from even 5 years ago. Sure you could say there are resources outside of the game you could use as a refresher, but that's the thing. There's no in-game way to refresh your memory which many long RPGs install methods to remember or recall stuff (like I could make a long list of what each one does and doesn't do). This is also the game which removed the field effect manual for a gimmicky in-game version so why can't there be a synopsis in the Poke Gear? Now I'm going to bring up a good oldie series called Xenosaga which the original game had some massively long cutscenes which could go on for an hour and a half. It's not unheard of to have very, very long cutscenes but it's a combined effect of the previous battle and one of the longest cutscene segments (and 3 times as long as most Pokemon games) that it's just fatigue. Even RPG enthusiast like myself felt that fatigue just due to the battle before so I may have turned my brain off and didn't process almost any of what happened. Xenosaga was a rollercoaster of reception due to the sheer amount of clipscenes (and direction change in the second game) so we're going to experience that here. I imagine there's quite a different reception from the fandom and the playerbase since this is just due to the mess started in E17 (most people are likely way too underleveled at this point...again to deal with that). I know Shofu probably does overreact to stuff due to how he is, but I do think having to make one episode he likely didn't like twice just added towards it. If I was in his shoes, I probably would have done the exact same thing and reacted the same way. Just not as vulgar and would have probably just been silent for a bit for the fans to read. I'm not one of those people who thinks he can do no wrong, but he's just in a tough situation. Also, I don't think he wants to stop after investing so much time and effort into the game and being so close to the end makes you think "why should I stop?" I think it's more curiosity and the fact he's so close why he may force himself to continue at points. As for my stance on the fight, either E17 needs to be redone with trainers or the glass gauntlet should be nerfed significantly more. I know that the reward is really, really good, but that's like trying to force someone to give a victory speech seconds after finishing an iron man. Of course my knowledge is so outdated and skewed from really only working with and playing the modded version so I do have bias. I really do understand why Shofu is frustrated and acted the way he did because I kind of reacted the same way. You could say I handled and coped with it better than he did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foamy Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 12 hours ago, Commander said: The game really does treat you like you're supposed to remember stuff from even 5 years ago. Let's be real here, the game is not designed for you to be playing it in increments across a timespan of 5+ years, so this is more of an issue with development times than anything else. All of the previous episodes have been unfinished betas. The final product is meant to be played all at once. I absolutely loved Xenosaga. But I understand that not everyone will enjoy it, which is why I think those people shouldn't play it. It would be less than pointless for someone who hates cutscenes and dialogue to play Xenosaga and then upload a video of him/herself complaining about how Xenosaga is a garbage game whenever it has a bunch of dialogue. Because all of the overly impressionable viewers would naively decide "hey, this person's right, Xenosaga is a garbage game!!" 12 hours ago, Commander said: Also, I don't think he wants to stop after investing so much time and effort into the game and being so close to the end makes you think "why should I stop?" I think it's more curiosity and the fact he's so close why he may force himself to continue at points. He made it quite clear that he doesn't care about the game anymore? That the only reason he's trying to finish it is because his viewers want him to? Unless you think his 40-minute "I don't care about any of this, I just wanna stop playing" spiel was all emotional and spur-of-the-moment without any truth behind it? 12 hours ago, Commander said: As for my stance on the fight, either E17 needs to be redone with trainers or the glass gauntlet should be nerfed significantly more. My team was all around Level 75 and I didn't have too much trouble with it? Granted, my experience might have been an outlier and the gauntlet may indeed be in need of a nerf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 We could argue back and forth about the dev times but in the end, saying it doesn't matter because it's all beta is a big fu to fans and players who have been supporting this game for a very, very long time. Most what I'll call episodic RPGs (multiple games that share a singular storyline) have summaries or recaps due to the long delay between releases. I am merely saying there just needs to be something and not to release the whole game at once. I mean arguing against that is saying people should force themselves to play a 40+ hour game again because they tried it out too soon. 6 hours ago, Foamy said: Because all of the overly impressionable viewers would naively decide "hey, this person's right, Xenosaga is a garbage game!!" I see you are a man of culture as well. One thing Xenosaga doesn't need is more hate. But being more realistic is that most people who have that attitude undoubtedly wouldn't pick up the game in the first place. It does have a hive mind effect though which is why you have to be careful with your choice in words with entertainment. But let's refrain from that discussion since it'd just be a bashing of media and humanity as a whole. 6 hours ago, Foamy said: He made it quite clear that he doesn't care about the game anymore? That the only reason he's trying to finish it is because his viewers want him to? Unless you think his 40-minute "I don't care about any of this, I just wanna stop playing" spiel was all emotional and spur-of-the-moment without any truth behind it? We would have to wait and see in another episode to see Shofu calm down but I'm not going to assume he doesn't dislike the game due to his very common outbursts and rants on the game. Tell me if you spent 5 years on a project and were so close to being done, would you suddenly just abandon it? I've stopped watching Shofu a long, long while ago and the current content I see from him just gets worse and worse. There's a pile of explanations but ultimately it really doesn't matter. Reborn has had haters for the 5 years I've been around and it will after it's completed. Clearly they turned this place to an awful, toxic comm...whst do you mean it hasn't? If you really don't like Shofu and his content nowadays find someone else to watch. Sure it may not be Reborn but seriously there are RPGs with much, much less coverage than Reborn which are still doing strong and have great communities around them. I mean at worst we can laugh at an angry guy being overdramatic. And as for nerfing the gauntlet, we've had major nerfs before including Radomus, Samson, and Luna, but only time will tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGLL Posted October 13, 2018 Author Share Posted October 13, 2018 A bit off topic, going to give my two cents for the gauntlet On 10/10/2018 at 10:42 PM, Commander said: As for my stance on the fight, either E17 needs to be redone with trainers or the glass gauntlet should be nerfed significantly more. I know that the reward is really, really good, but that's like trying to force someone to give a victory speech seconds after finishing an iron man. Of course my knowledge is so outdated and skewed from really only working with and playing the modded version so I do have bias. I really do understand why Shofu is frustrated and acted the way he did because I kind of reacted the same way. You could say I handled and coped with it better than he did. Honestly, I wouldn't have a problem with the gauntlet getting nerfed. Admittedly, I didn't use the doubles move tutor at 7th street, which might had helped, but the gauntlet is really brutal. Having to fight what is essentially five teams in a row with no chance to heal, save, change or even rearrange your team between the fights is really hard. Being essentially forced to use healing items in battle should not be a balancing factor, not only because you don't need them for the other battles, but also because it feels cheap. The player shouldn't be forced in a situation where they have to use them, or get beaten over and over again. Yes, a really powerful team can probably get by just fine, but a mentality where the player has to either use the absolute best team you can get, or spam healing items, defeats the point of a hard, but fun, battle. I know that there are other situations where some players may need to spam items, but that is usually used as a crutch for teams ill-suited for the battle or for players who want to get through by brute forcing. You could still get past them with careful planning, team building and, of course, luck without potions, unlike this one, which feels like you have to spam at some battle so that you won't have to restart (like I did at the third battle). This battle, and the one after that (only due to a technicality, otherwise it is slightly underwhelming) are the only major battles that I feel are actually unfair. I don't blame shofu or anyone for raging at the gauntlet battle or at any other battle in the game, despite how I feel at the time. They have every right to be frustrated, I mean everyone does feel frustrated at some point in this game anyway. That doesn't mean that his complains after the battle are, I feel, warranted, for reasons I have already pointed out. On 10/11/2018 at 7:15 PM, Commander said: We could argue back and forth about the dev times but in the end, saying it doesn't matter because it's all beta is a big fu to fans and players who have been supporting this game for a very, very long time. Most what I'll call episodic RPGs (multiple games that share a singular storyline) have summaries or recaps due to the long delay between releases. I am merely saying there just needs to be something and not to release the whole game at once. I mean arguing against that is saying people should force themselves to play a 40+ hour game again because they tried it out too soon. I'll admit, I wouldn't mind if we did have some kind of character log in-game (even though me and a few other people don't need it), that way no one would get completly lost. That said, I don't think that is feasable with the Pokemon Essentials engine and even if it was, I don't know if Amethyst would be motivated to make an entire new log mechanic to summarize everything along with the new (and last) content of episode 19. Still, they way I understand it, Pokemon Reborn isn't actually a episodic game. An example of an episodic game would be one that wants to emulate an episode on TV, with an opening, a recap,a title drop, a bunch of pretty transition scenes before the episode actually starts and maybe a sneak peek for what happens next, and the game is released in parts to replicate that feeling that you are watching while playing a TV series. The Walking Dead, all Telltale games and even games such as Alan Wake and Bioshock Infinite are episodic episodes. That is how the developers want you to feel when you play the game and thus they contain all of the above. The only aspect that Reborn actually shares with them are the sneak peeks at the end of every episode's story, which don't even stick because they are removed entirely from the game once it has been updated. Reborn doesn't have opening scenes, recaps, title drops, or even a narrator that stops your game and tells you what has happened before you are able to return. It continues like normal with no interruptions from beyond the 4th wall. If anything, it is just like Pokemon Insurgence and Pokemon Uranium in that aspect, which stopped the game, gave you a message saying that you can't continue the story because it is not finished, gave you the names of a bunch of websites just in case you want to follow the progress of the next release and then just released you back in the game to continue playing what has been finished, like sidequests. Only difference is the fact that Reborn's ending message also contains an additional sneak peek of what might transpire in the next episode, but that is not enough to call it an episodic game and is even frequently removed. I'll leave it here for now. I'm glad that you were willing to discuss this with me, even if it might annoy you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyumia Posted October 21, 2018 Share Posted October 21, 2018 (edited) On Tuesday, October 02, 2018 at 9:28 AM, GGLL said: So this is coming way out of the left field, but is anyone else really frustrated with Shofu after the latest episode Pokemon Reborn ? I went ahead to try and watch his latest video, but once I saw his comments and what everyone else says, I just gave up. His logic for why the game's story is bad and doesn't make any sense is not only baffling, it's also false and makes it apparent that he has clearly misjudged the nature of the episodes. First of all, he complains about an hour long cutscene that's supposed to explain character backstories and hint at later events near the end of the game. The point where all key exposition takes place (especially for lore heavy games like reborn and metal gear),that usually takes about 10 minutes to 1 whooping hour . Then he talks about how it's impossible to get invested with characters he practically just met because the episodes are released infrequently and that the scene shouldn't be long because no one will remember all the characters that exist, thus they can't get invested. Then he complains again saying that nothing makes sense, even though he skipped the dialogue (incorrectly, mind you, since he was pressing the A button and not the skip-the-dialogue-option X button, which should have been mentioned in the read me section before the you boot the game and would have been much faster). There is so much wrong with everything above. Since I already gave my reason for why some of his arguments are not good, I'll move to the one that I haven't. I want to clear something up, since everyone in the comment section seems to have it all wrong, the game's "episodes" are not really episodes,at least in the sense that a game like The Walking Dead uses that term. They are only called episodes for the thematic flavor. In reality, reborn's episodes are more like demos for the real game. That's because, apart from the fact that you are not required to download all of the episodes individually for you to play through the story, each episode not only adds content that continues the story, it also changes, adds or removes elements from already existing content, that may even reach as far back as episode 1. Field effects, new event pokemon, changes to event pokemon, changes to already established battles and even to the story at some points, new game features with each passing update are all examples of this. Such a process is very similiar, if not out right the same, to the way a game goes through it's development circles, where stuff might change, things maybe added or even removed for the sake of a more polished game and a better overall experience. The game isn't meant to be played episode by episode, else we would all have to download every single one of them separately, which doesn't happen since every release gives you the full game along with the added story and gameplay content. The reason the game is released episode by episode is because : It is much more convenient for Amethyst to release it that way since she can get better feedback about the game and make the according changes, instead of having to release the entire game, having it be full of bugs and unpolished gameplay, and then have to start from scratch to fix it, instead of doing it little by little like she does now. Amethyst was not actually planning to make it this far. She herself has admitted that reborn had started at a whim, to test out her skills with RPGMaker and that she wasn't actually expecting to stick with it this far, hence why the game was released as an episode, namely episode 1. It is only later that she decided to turn reborn from a short-lived side project to whatever it is now. The game being released like this is a result of what Amethyst originally intended to do with it and she ended up sticking with it. Reborn was, up until recently, supposed to line up with the newer generations of pokemon, as far as pokemon availability was concerned. Likely that meant that Amethyst may often had to hold back on release date both for the episodes and the whole game so that she could integrate the newer pokemon and mechanics into it. In short, the game is now released part by part and not all at once, but it's not meant to be experienced like this by the time it is completed. That's why calling that part of the game in EP18 bad writing because of the game is released in episodes and they take a long time to be completed is just wrong, no matter how you slice it. What personally gets me, though, is the fact that the developers haven't claimed that it is completed, yet Shofu still insists that it is their fault for the above reasons. This is gonna be really offensive but, newsflash, that is not the developers fault, that is your fault and your problem. If you as the player decide to start a game that you know is incomplete and doesn't seem to be even close to the end, then you run the risk of forgeting what has happened down the line between the last time you played and the next time you start from where you left of from the new release. Whether or not you will eventually remember or you decide to do your research on the events that took place is the player's, and only the player's, choice. If you don't want to do that, that is perfectly acceptable. Don't be suprised if you get lost, though, and if you do, then you have no one to blame but yourself, since it was your choice, as the player, to continue like so. I got carried away and wrote alot so I'll try to summarise the above. Shofu's arguments are incorrect because an hour long cutscene that you can skip in an RPG isn't uncommon, he got lost and confused because he kept skipping the text (not even the right way to skip ahead), the game's episodes are more like glorified demos and it is not meant to (exclusively at least) be played release by release, especially once the final episode is released, so holding that against it is plain wrong. Feel free to argue or correct me if I'm wrong and I'll try to respond to the best of my abilities. I literally wrote an essay, and then had that all erased by having notification pop up on screen, so I'm just gonna abridge what wrote in a less formal way. I'm also gonna preface this by saying that I love Pokemon reborn, but it is by no stretch of the imagination a perfect game. I've got way more gripes with this game both mechanically and narratively than I can shake a stick at, but still adore it after playing for so many years. 1)Exposition dumps are really terrible, in any work of fiction. a)they maybe character feel like they're being talked at rather than talked to. These a reason people hate that 40 minute long episode in the Fate series that's nothing talking. It's boring, and it doesn't give the main chapter the chance to have a personality in a video game. Sun/Moon does this well in contrast, and our always get the impression that the main character s an easy going and nice person rather than a camera with legs to watch other characters do awesome things, like watch someone ride a giant steelix. Granted, this is because the main character doesn't /exist/ within the RP the game is written from, so there isn't much agency or choice in the first place. (Random Tangent: Illusion of choice exists in any media - games, books, doesn't matter. It's not a bad thing, but Reborn struggles to make things matter a lot with it. Wanna keep everyone from getting kidnapped? Too bad, someone does anyways. Wanna become a student in a Zen Academy? Too bad, go back to your month long quest of moving a rock. There's like no special sidequest if you say yes to Kiki about being a new student, or nothing that's tangible yet. Spoiler An example of this is in Detroit Become Human, where when you're playing as Markus and want to stay with Carl, you'll have to leave anyways no matter what you choose. All these issues sort of complicated lead to other questions, like "why does your main character even want to do this?" (Which I think Ame has voiced in the past, about giving a silent character personality.) b) reborn kinda sucks at characterization. Normally you're supposed establish ths stuff immediately (https://www.writingclasses.com/toolbox/tips-masters/kurt-vonnegut-8-basics-of-creative-writing Kurt Vonnegut is a famous author with multiple award winning books, and known for his unique style). Again, Sun/Moon does this really well. The main character gies off a friendly, easygoing vibe. Hau is friendly, but worries about his Kahuna relative. Gladion and Lilly cope with their abuse/neglect differently, and Kukui and Guzma juxtapose each other. Some might say that Pokemon doesn't cover real issues enough but then they must not have seen Po town. It's implies that because it doesn't have the same tourist appeal that it's residents live (The Skulls) in poverty, so much that even the pokemon center doesn't have power. It also implies that if you fail the island challenge, that people will stop caring about you (Guzma) and even if you finish it, it doesn't matter because you'll have to we to pay off a mortgage anyway. As someone who just graduated high school, has to move out and pay taxes, have a crap job etc, that's a huge dose of existential terror that apparently not even pokemon games are free from. c) a glaring issue of this is what happens to Kiki's medicham. Ame assumes you are because it's her lead pokemon, but it's no developed at all, and could've all e a sword and make no difference. d) Reborn has way too many characters. There's a reason why JRPGs limit their major characters to 7 or 5. It's easy to remember when you haven't been playing the game regularly, and keeps them memorable. Basically, I'm saying it's not Shofu's fault he can't remember 20 different characters and all their back stories, it's just that the game itself suffers from clutter. You only really interact with Kahunas/Gym Leaders for a little while and mostly cause, yknow it's not their story. It's yours. 2)I agree with you on episodic releases, but I also don't. a) reborn is way too big to be released in one go. Maybe an indie studio with professional programmers, artists, and a good director could do it no problem, but fanprojects are a much different can of worms. b)episodic releases suck @ss. And yeah, you're not technically incorrect, but you're not correct either. Episodic usually refers to something that is self contained and doesn't really connect with other episodes. And the fact that you can go back and play through the entire game with an update doesn't not make it the telltale variety of episodic - which really, is a fancy way for updated by chapters (which is what reborn does) cause evening you've done does carry over and the story continues. c) Pokemon games get progressively short and have smaller more recognizable casts because they know not everyone has the time to put 200+ hours into a game like "the good ol' days" and if your like me, and have no free time, coming back to reborn after a long hiatus it can be a tall order to ask someone to remember every little plot detail and throwaway line ever written. (But sadly, I do remember, because I'm a terrible glutton for punishment I guess.) Anyways.... There's a reason tell tale gets (got, I suppose) so much flak, and that's because it's easy to forget and completely redo essential plot details that can make it either really meh or frustrating for a player. Kenny from Walking Dead is a really good example of this, but you could argue that it's a character flaw rather than an oversight how quick he is the murder ppl that aren't his family. c)to quote a joke "there are 99 bugs of code on the wall, 99 bugs of code, take one down patch it around and there are 394 bugs of code." A good example of this, is the game YandereSim where the dev states that every update to the game causes new bugs. Granted, Yandere is absolutely terrible at coding and even a noob like me cringes at the mess that is his code. And calling YandereSim a game is generous when it's really a con. Also did you no gleam anything from the aftermath of that infamous metal gear cutscene? Everyone /hates/ it, and when you can have a bout of diarrhea in the middle of it, come back and have it still going it's a sign that the story need to get to the loving point. Not to mention, that japanese story telling is really different from western story telling, which shows in a few translation issues and inconveniences. I mean, you totally /can/ have a long info dump, but that doesn't mean it's good or engaging. (Plus, it's usually really clunky and awkward if it's translated badly, leading to long sentences that use way too many words to covey a simple idea.) Especially if you can turn the volume off and starkly notice that it's literally just two 2d lips flapping. You can make this more interesting in a movie or anime with lighting and visuals, but it's harder in a game where writing is the bulk of the the narrative. And holy moly, that's a hole nother can of worms. I've been writing for nearly 6 years, and some characters still make me cry a little inside. A good example of this translation error (literally) is actually in the game itself, and really freaking funny. There's youngster Joey that's referenced for his "top percent ratatta" except when it's referenced Ame translated this to reference strength/levels when in reality Joey is talking about having a "top breed". Basically a kid bragging, naively, about their pure bred dog. This carries over to the main plot, in regards to Arceus (and the other legendary Pokemon which I won't name here BC I know it's gonna be a plot point). In the main games they don't actually /worhsip/ Arceus. Which is really similar to a lot of irl practices of Japan, where unlike in the West, in Japan it's more about practicing rituals and values than having "faith" in them. Really, the town only knows about it because it's "keeping with the old ways" which is a really japanese ideal when (I could be wrong) there's a lot of paranoia about globalism making traditions irrelevant. So as a result, it reads like a biblical God or Jesus/Vs Satan story (which the director of the first two Thor movies fell into as well, making them less Norse and more Christian. Which is why the third one is so much better and truer to the mythos.) So when he's saying the story has issues, he's not completely wrong, he's just touching on the wrong points. Tldr; Reborn is a fan game with issues a studio or someone with more experience wouldn't really have made, and writing mistakes/trappings that only someone really familiar with various kinds of storytelling to spot. Edit: Before I forget, it wouldn't be that difficult to implement a log system. Diamond/Pearl had a journal, but even then it wouldn't take much effort to put in a script that looks for flags between chapters that says "you're starting ep#, would you like to review?" because technically it's already there at the end of the eps, just only for the most recent one. Edited October 21, 2018 by The Lonely God 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 8 hours ago, The Lonely God said: 1)Exposition dumps are really terrible, in any work of fiction. I'm going to say that while exposition dumps are usually considered the worst part of a game, they are a necessary evil. So something you get jammed into your face as a writer is show, don't tell which they leave off the "but you can't do that for everything otherwise it'll take half a century to walk a single step" The reason exposition dumps exist is due to getting it done and getting it down fast on top of not having to resources to properly execute it well. I'm also going to say that the void segment is not an exposition dump and is at the same time. It's a cooldown time after a brutal battle and you could tune out quite a bit and be fine. I also feel like this is just giving small insight to events we shall find out about later (though if they are postgame or not is a different story). Nothing here is needed which could storm up a great debate. The scene is ridiculously long without any breaks to explore so I will give that point, but we actually have a much, much worse exposition dump in the game. Remember Dittoceus? That scene pretty much tarnished Elias to be one of, if not the worst character in the game. And we didn't have text skipping back then so it was all the more painful reading that dull crazed religious text which felt like 30 minutes. Also doesn't help that we're a silent protagonist so info dumps sometimes are required to even have a functioning plot. I'm not going to mention Sun/Moon not that much since it's a terrible example to compare Reborn with which that game also has a case of rose-tinted lenses playing it the first time through. And don't lash out on Reborn for having exposition when 25% of that game is a bloody tutorial jammed with explanations on how to do mundane tasks. I'll leave my bias at the door since I feel everything post Gen V is a hollow shell of the Pokemon series and I could go on a Gen7 rant. 8 hours ago, The Lonely God said: (Random Tangent: Illusion of choice exists in any media - games, books, doesn't matter. It's not a bad thing, but Reborn struggles to make things matter a lot with it. Wanna keep everyone from getting kidnapped? Too bad, someone does anyways. Wanna become a student in a Zen Academy? Too bad, go back to your month long quest of moving a rock. There's like no special sidequest if you say yes to Kiki about being a new student, or nothing that's tangible yet. I don't talk about this game much due to being an eroge, but MGQ makes fun of this trope. There's always 3 choices: The right choice, the wrong choice that leads to the right choice, and the choice so out there you are going to press purely out of curiosity. So one issue with a game is that choice can be resource intensive and often have to lock the freedom of choices down due to that reason. Optional characters often have choppy inserted lines if any at all, choices only affect a single line of dialogue, and split paths usually end rather quickly. It also requires a good knowledge of writing to account for all the changes and differences. So what does a game that gives a great freedom of choice look like? It feels amazing and like you are in control. So I'll talk about Trails in the Sky SC where a flaw and a perk to the game is you can only bring 4 characters along at the time. You only get a choice of two though as the other two are required. So you can choose what optional tasks to accomplish, but whenever you talk to someone, many of them have unique dialogue with the optional characters. These aren't exactly swap in pieces of dialogue either such as a certain general being shocked someone with such a high status would be with the group. 3rd goes a step even further adding certain fights with unique lines for every character and sometimes an even more unique pair for having a certain two at the same time. Something about it feels so rewarding seeing reactions between characters that are optional. I'll jump into a more familiar series: Fire Emblem. We'll talk about two very famed games in the series: Path of Radiance vs Awakening. Awakening has this illusion of choice you make with different options leading to the same exact result regardless. The most famous is saying not to give the Fire Emblem which Chrom is going to do regardless. So now let's jump into the first chapter of PoR. Let's say you royally screw up and lose everyone but Ike. They are very important to this plot so they all retreat, right? No, Boyd and Oscar die. Titania does live but I believe after a certain point she can die as well. This actually is reflected upon in a conversation in which Mist tells Rolf her brother will rescue them...which he comments that both his brothers are dead now. You'd think the game that followed it would keep the same homage to death, but nope. Literally half of the Awakening cast cannot die. All the females in the game cannot die due to being "needed" in the scenes to recruit their children. Important plot characters retreating (such as Virion) not dying isn't new, but Awakening created the saying "Nobody dies in Fire Emblem" which is a ridicule in the change in direction. Even the choice of death is stripped from you which hurts the impact of the games. Just imagine if the writers had the balls to kill off the mothers. Those children scenes might be some of the best in the entire series...I mean it did give Clive such a memorable moment. 9 hours ago, The Lonely God said: b) reborn kinda sucks at characterization Gonna say it's kind of irony that you would praise Sun/Moon when Reborn does the same thing. Both sets of characters are tropey and pretty much rely on that trope through both their dialogue and their actions. Julia still acts like a high school cheer captain which many of her lines are peppy and whiny when she doesn't get her way. Shelly has trouble getting her words across so she'll often use "...Uhmm.." and characters will tend to ignore her. Character development is the term I feel you are looking for. And while I don't feel Sun/Moon is something to write home about (opinions are opinions) I would agree with you here on this stance. While they start out the same, the SuMo cast gets more time to be explored and at a much better pace. Reborn takes a character in an episode, drops knowledge, then expects you to remember it after 20-40 hours of events before seeing it developed more. It's choppy and very hit or miss. Some do it well like Bennett while others such as Amaria are an "oh dear god." Titania needed more screentime to develop as well as so much of her is just very, very passive and easy to miss. Also Samson and Ciel get their stories dumped in an exposition...which you can't see the other yet. 9 hours ago, The Lonely God said: c) a glaring issue of this is what happens to Kiki's medicham. Ame assumes you are because it's her lead pokemon, but it's no developed at all, and could've all e a sword and make no difference. This is not said in words, but it had a major impact on a certain character. Cal uses a Medicham the next time we see him. It's a small detail that speaks a lot about his feelings on the events that went down there. Though this was dampened as he kind of now uses whatever Pokemon he wants. It was a much bigger deal before because he broke his beliefs (using only fire types) due to those events. The removal of the monos did dampen many impacts from certain scenes. It's the fact he was the one to do it what makes this payoff interesting. 9 hours ago, The Lonely God said: d) Reborn has way too many characters. There's a reason why JRPGs limit their major characters to 7 or 5. So this is false. Many RPGs have a cast the size of this game...it's just how it's handled. I think Fire Emblem is a great reference on getting a barebones idea of how to handle it, but Reborn has a special problem, it didn't handle balancing the cast right. Every character getting treated equally and getting roughly the same amount of screentime on paper sounds good, but oh boy does it not end well. And then jam all of the reveals and development until the very end pretty much is why everyone thinks this. For what Reborn does is technically fine, but it does too much in too little time and it's WAAYYYY too late to go back now. So I guess everything is technically done fine, but because we don't venture another with our favorites, we can't invest into them as much. Episode one had a pretty wrapped up story and I don't think people would have though much if Julia never showed up again. This closed structure for less involved characters would work wonders letting the more active ones be the ones we follow and watch...except that happens to everyone even after big plot revelations (cough *Dittoceous* cough). There are many characters with hidden details which I wish we could've seen a lot more of...but that'd mean they'd have more spotlight so we can't let that happen. This is a giant discussion as while smaller casts are easy to make, smaller casts =/= better than bigger ones. 9 hours ago, The Lonely God said: 2)I agree with you on episodic releases, but I also don't. a) reborn is way too big to be released in one go. Maybe an indie studio with professional programmers, artists, and a good director could do it no problem, but fanprojects are a much different can of worms. b)episodic releases suck @ss. And yeah, you're not technically incorrect, but you're not correct either. Episodic usually refers to something that is self contained and doesn't really connect with other episodes. And the fact that you can go back and play through the entire game with an update doesn't not make it the telltale variety of episodic - which really, is a fancy way for updated by chapters (which is what reborn does) cause evening you've done does carry over and the story continues. c) Pokemon games get progressively short and have smaller more recognizable casts because they know not everyone has the time to put 200+ hours into a game like "the good ol' days" and if your like me, and have no free time, coming back to reborn after a long hiatus it can be a tall order to ask someone to remember every little plot detail and throwaway line ever written. (But sadly, I do remember, because I'm a terrible glutton for punishment I guess.) I find it funny people say they have no time when I managed to mod hardcore while working 60 hour weeks (glad those days are over). I get that long RPGs are a huge investment and you can't just sit around and play all the time though. Not everyone likes getting into long games either which is why at one point jRPGs felt like they were going to die. That's a different discussion for another day. Episodic releases are no different here than segments of a game. It's like when you defeat the main boss of an area. There's not much left to do so you take your things and move on to the next town or region. That's kind of what I was saying. I do agree that if you are going to take years and release the game bit by bit, there should be a summary. I would show the bracer book in Sky...but I'm not far enough to show how it nails giving a summary and makes the game not hard to pick back up. I really think all RPGs should be required to have a synopsis though if they go beyond 30 hours...especially the ones with more convoluted plots. 9 hours ago, The Lonely God said: c)to quote a joke "there are 99 bugs of code on the wall, 99 bugs of code, take one down patch it around and there are 394 bugs of code." A good example of this, is the game YandereSim where the dev states that every update to the game causes new bugs. Granted, Yandere is absolutely terrible at coding and even a noob like me cringes at the mess that is his code. And calling YandereSim a game is generous when it's really a con. Wait is he still working on that thing? Seriously, there's no reason it should be in development still as it's a rather simple game. 9 hours ago, The Lonely God said: Not to mention, that japanese story telling is really different from western story telling, which shows in a few translation issues and inconveniences. I mean, you totally /can/ have a long info dump, but that doesn't mean it's good or engaging. (Plus, it's usually really clunky and awkward if it's translated badly, leading to long sentences that use way too many words to covey a simple idea.) Especially if you can turn the volume off and starkly notice that it's literally just two 2d lips flapping. You can make this more interesting in a movie or anime with lighting and visuals, but it's harder in a game where writing is the bulk of the the narrative. And holy moly, that's a hole nother can of worms. I've been writing for nearly 6 years, and some characters still make me cry a little inside. A good example of this translation error (literally) is actually in the game itself, and really freaking funny. There's youngster Joey that's referenced for his "top percent ratatta" except when it's referenced Ame translated this to reference strength/levels when in reality Joey is talking about having a "top breed". Basically a kid bragging, naively, about their pure bred dog. So while what you are saying is true, you are attacking Ame for using the meme for it known by the Pokemon community instead of being "correct." I know Ame does know a bit of Japanese (I know some things but I can't read Kanji to save my life), but most NPCs are just pop culture and references. It's flooded with it so is it really a problem with the localization or being over reliant on memes. Personally, I don't think they add or take anything away so I'll leave it at that. 9 hours ago, The Lonely God said: This carries over to the main plot, in regards to Arceus (and the other legendary Pokemon which I won't name here BC I know it's gonna be a plot point). In the main games they don't actually /worhsip/ Arceus. Which is really similar to a lot of irl practices of Japan, where unlike in the West, in Japan it's more about practicing rituals and values than having "faith" in them. Really, the town only knows about it because it's "keeping with the old ways" which is a really japanese ideal when (I could be wrong) there's a lot of paranoia about globalism making traditions irrelevant. So as a result, it reads like a biblical God or Jesus/Vs Satan story (which the director of the first two Thor movies fell into as well, making them less Norse and more Christian. Which is why the third one is so much better and truer to the mythos.) So when he's saying the story has issues, he's not completely wrong, he's just touching on the wrong points. We actually only see one single church in the entire Pokemon series and I think a lot of that got cut in the English localization. I'm not sure but Gen IV is a mess to follow given the censorship war was still going on. (And still is but it's not as bad). So basically, Arceus created Pokemon as I've come to know and I've used that idea before when messing with the lore and stuff, but let's just treat him as "God". But "Oh, Nintendo is Japanese and they never had any games with worshipping god" >Dragon Quest >Fire Emblem PoR/RD >Actually pretty much all Fire Emblem >I think Golden Sun (I know the Wise One) >Final Fantasy (VI I want to say) >Xenoblade Chronicles We could argue about this all day as while many, many pieces of Japanese culture and traditions are implemented into their games, we've also seen a lot of westernization influences. The Kiseki Series is very heavily inspired by the European Renaissance Era and Fire Emblem is based of the Middle Ages. I don't know Arcues's origins and what he is based off of but it's given off the impression of God from the Cathlic and Christian religion for many people which many people also play off of this. Many, many RPGs play off of this concept (Giratina is not as widely accepted as Satin) so I don't think we can simply say "It's not like that because Japan." Japan does everything, man...everything. 10 hours ago, The Lonely God said: Tldr; Reborn is a fan game with issues a studio or someone with more experience wouldn't really have made, and writing mistakes/trappings that only someone really familiar with various kinds of storytelling to spot. I want you to take a minute to reread what you just said. Reborn would need a lot more than a studio to fix its issues. And for every good game that comes out, there's a least 20 godawful ones. Even some great and well known companies publish terrible games such as Camelot's Golden Sun: Dark Dawn (I still liked it, but it was pretty bad). I'm not here to ridicule you other than pretty much completely disagreeing with that being a good solution. I think you really disagree with Ame's game dev philosophies in which if she laid off of certain traits (such as silent protags) and did certain things the game would feel much more enjoyable to you...at least. I disagree with the use of a lot of the Pokemon tropes and standards used in Reborn, but most people who pick up this game are going to be Pokemon players and not RPG enthusiast such as myself. It has lead to some jarring and questionable choices and many turn offs, but no dev is immune to it. Even Intelligent Systems who botched the Paper Mario series (likely due to some back door publishing demands and executive decisions). And the irony here is that Ame is putting more focus into the game than before and it has shown in the progress and changes in the game to improve it. So if you say that now, I don't think a dev team would change much of how Reborn looks or the story. And on a random closing note...since I missed it: 10 hours ago, The Lonely God said: All these issues sort of complicated lead to other questions, like "why does your main character even want to do this?" (Which I think Ame has voiced in the past, about giving a silent character personality.) So an issue with writing a Protagonist like this is what I would call a "ragdoll" effect. Since the character isn't a character, there needs to be a method of moving them around otherwise they'll end sitting in a place and mean nothing. So what happens is that they are handed off from character to character and more or less witnessing events other than scenes with Taka and/or ZEL in them (which are honestly some of the best in the game). I think a perk to this is that it helps create a better atmosphere when exploring which Reborn has a heavy emphasis on, but at the cost of hurting other characters since they need to focus on narrating the player as well. I think the only reason the protag is silent is because Ame is following the Pokemon formula. (Starlight Divide I'm pretty sure doesn't have a silent protag). You brought up a lot of good points which is why I responded to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chase Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 I haven’t caught up with the playthrough because I’m debating playing the game and not finishing for the God-knows-what time now, but as someone who has been watching Shofu play this game for nearly a fifth of my time on Earth (I’m a fossil by Pokémon forum standards) I have to say two things. 1. Shofu has earned the right to critique the game through his dedication to providing the content for this long. YouTube makes lots of things more work intensive than they should be. That makes an endeavor like Pokemon Reborn less enjoyable than it intentionally isn’t at times because every moment is a part of his show too. So, for spending a great deal following the game’s development, which has not been as consistent as Ame herself may wish it was at times, and sticking with it, regardless of how worn out his intent is, is nothing short of remarkable. If that seems weak to you - keep in mind that I have very little time to even play myself. Let alone record and milk the experience into internet gold for others. 2. Ame is more understanding and resilient than Shofu as the one developing this game. There are some things about the Pokemon formula she doesn’t like as s creator. And when I’ve talked about my experiences with Pokemon to her personally it was met with healthy disagreement (as most things are - if it wasn’t it was unhealthy argument or not a conflict in the first place. Heh.) but not dismissal. She had to reconcile her creative direction with criticism that has not always been civil. But she did it because the game’s fans are not the only people there. Shofu’s comment section and his demeanor have rattled her before. She didn’t respond by complaining publically. Instead - she often agreed and would often put more things on the bug list or tweak things in previous episodes to improve the game retroactively not just for her. Or her home crowd here. But for everyone. Why? Because if she wants to make it big in game design, the general public is her audience. Her consumer base. The people that buy her game. I’m sure she’d appreciate making -enough- money off of the few of us that would pay her if she shot me in cold blood for no good reason... (some of you might think that’s a good idea...maybe I need a different metaphor.)... or because she’s Ame and we appreciate the entity for who she is and not what she does. That’s not how life works though - and she didn’t run from it. She walked it off, rubbed some dirt on it, and went back to work. 3. She’s not perfect, and neither is he. Somedays, a bug prevents you from getting Ditto and she has to put it there for you. Somedays he just feels like griping. Some people watch him just to see him angry. Others prefer to watch him not be. It is okay to criticize both of them - or experience frustration with their work. Sometimes the anger makes the experience better. Like beating Noel once in like 473 times over 6 playthroughs. I appreciate both for sticking it out this long. It’s been the journey for me. And while no it hasn’t been to my liking on either experience (playing/watching Shofu play) it has been the course of a great deal of time. Both Ame and Shofu have a way of cheering me up. this was probably way too sentimental. It’s Deep O’clock. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyumia Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 On Monday, October 22, 2018 at 1:26 AM, Commander said: I'm going to say that while exposition dumps are usually considered the worst part of a game, they are a necessary evil. So something you get jammed into your face as a writer is show, don't tell which they leave off the "but you can't do that for everything otherwise it'll take half a century to walk a single step" The reason exposition dumps exist is due to getting it done and getting it down fast on top of not having to resources to properly execute it well. I'm also going to say that the void segment is not an exposition dump and is at the same time. It's a cooldown time after a brutal battle and you could tune out quite a bit and be fine. I also feel like this is just giving small insight to events we shall find out about later (though if they are postgame or not is a different story). Nothing here is needed which could storm up a great debate. I'm gonna counter argue with the fact that we actually already knew most of the information within the segment if you remember dialogue lines. For me, the only new information was on Kiki and Aya, which easily could have been hinted at earlier in the game rendering the whole sequence null. To be honest, maybe in other fiction, but video games are capable of telling a story in ways that movies can't, like through the environment. Which is why I appreciate the fact the graveyard includes the names of all the people the characters have had died. Additionally, exposition dumps are really unnatural, so it's generous to consider them a necessary evil. IMO as a general rule, unless the character is new to the rules of the universe the characters should only discuss that in a way that makes sense and flow naturally in a conversation not what they already know if it has to be done, otherwise it can be alluded to. Mind you, I don't agree with the narrative against show don't tell, but Reborn really suffers from it and struggles with less is more too. Quote Remember Dittoceus? I had repressed that. But, on the subject of long sequences, the whole game is long - like, I forget if I mentioned this but I follow a let's play where they copy/paste dialogue from the game and holy crap, the sheer number of paragraphs hurt before text skip came out. I haven't played fire emblem or trails in the sky but tbh they sound more fun than Reborn. Quote Gonna say it's kind of irony that you would praise Sun/Moon when Reborn does the same thing. Both sets of characters are tropey and pretty much rely on that trope through both their dialogue and their actions. Julia still acts like a high school cheer captain which many of her lines are peppy and whiny when she doesn't get her way. Shelly has trouble getting her words across so she'll often use "...Uhmm.." and characters will tend to ignore her. Yeah, but those are a few of the most tolerable characters in the game. While I know it's the fault of the RP, (which as someone who does role play I'm painfully familiar with) there's Anna who's psychic and that's basically it until her arch gets a little further in episode loving 18, nearly 50 hours of gameplay later. While Sun/Moon characters are tropey too, some of them change real quick or get layers added too them. Like when gladion is introduced he seems like a sasuke character but his arch shows that he really cares about Pokemon and isn't the edgelord he was first made out to be. Like the fact almost his entire team evolves based on friendship. Quote This is not said in words, but it had a major impact on a certain character. Cal uses a Medicham the next time we see him. It's a small detail that speaks a lot about his feelings on the events that went down there I meant for the audience, at that moment in time. And, yeah, that sequence is really nice for both him and Shelly because their teams reflect their development, but again that doesn't really address the problems with the Medicham scene and really makes me wonder why Cal ended showing how he felt about that rather than both him and Victoria. But that's a tangent so.... Quote So this is false. Many RPGs have a cast the size of this game...it's just how it's handled. I think Fire Emblem is a great reference on getting a barebones idea of how to handle it, but Reborn has a special problem, it didn't handle balancing the cast right. Every character getting treated equally and getting roughly the same amount of screentime on paper sounds good, but oh boy does it not end well. And then jam all of the reveals and development until the very end pretty much is why everyone thinks this. For what Reborn does is technically fine, but it does too much in too little time and it's WAAYYYY too late to go back now. Maybe we just play different games, cause fire emblem is the only one I know of with such a large cast of major players. Either way, at that point will be hit or miss in how memorable they are, especially to the casual fan. Quote I find it funny people say they have no time when I managed to mod hardcore while working 60 hour weeks (glad those days are over). Teach me your ways. But like, seriously. On an average day through I usually end up putting 200-300 hours into reborn, maybe 400+ if I'm breeding pokemon which caused me to take three months to finish a play through. (Didn't help that episode 16 came out then too, so I was spending extra time trying to remember stuff for my next play through.) And probably, because they're doing other things in addition to work. Quote Wait is he still working on that thing? Seriously, there's no reason it should be in development still as it's a rather simple game. "Working" yeah. The whole thing is a money scheme and I imagine he'll go out like Spoony or uh movie critic guy from youtube whom I currently can't remember the name of. But again, that's a whole nother bag of worms. Quote We actually only see one single church in the entire Pokemon series and I think a lot of that got cut in the English localization. I'm not sure but Gen IV is a mess to follow given the censorship war was still going on. (And still is but it's not as bad). So basically, Arceus created Pokemon as I've come to know and I've used that idea before when messing with the lore and stuff, but let's just treat him as "God". But "Oh, Nintendo is Japanese and they never had any games with worshipping god" >Dragon Quest >Fire Emblem PoR/RD >Actually pretty much all Fire Emblem >I think Golden Sun (I know the Wise One) >Final Fantasy (VI I want to say) >Xenoblade Chronicles I'm familiar, but I think you misunderstood because I wasn't saying that "it's Japan, and they can't have a singular god" but "it's unlikely to be comparable to Catholicism for these reasons, in addition to the fact that the knowledge of the existence of Arceus is limited to such a small town that it's unlikely that people would even know what you mean when someone says "arceus bless your home". Basically "can't compare apples to oranges. I was specifically addressing why this interpretation of it is unlikely. Quote I want you to take a minute to reread what you just said. Reborn would need a lot more than a studio to fix its issues. And for every good game that comes out, there's a least 20 godawful ones. Even some great and well known companies publish terrible games such as Camelot's Golden Sun: Dark Dawn (I still liked it, but it was pretty bad). I'm not here to ridicule you other than pretty much completely disagreeing with that being a good solution. Any concept can be salvaged and improved on, but that's just my opinion. A Pokemon region set in an urban setting where you need to do events to find good pokemon is a really interesting concept at its core, Reborn just goes a too far with it and doesn't give any indicators for its event flags. I'm familiar, as someone who likes the dumpster fire that are more recent final fantasy games but I still think a studio won't make some of the mistakes that Reborn - especially with some gym fights (cause, let's be honest Shelly's ability to murder you brutally if you don't prepare a very specific strategy to counter all the bases she has covered is really at odds with her insecurities. And really hilarious.) Especially with its code for early releases. Idk if you can still get a game crash when your pokemon survive poison, but damn that was infuriating. Quote So while what you are saying is true, you are attacking Ame for using the meme for it known by the Pokemon community instead of being "correct." I know Ame does know a bit of Japanese (I know some things but I can't read Kanji to save my life), but most NPCs are just pop culture and references. It's flooded with it so is it really a problem with the localization or being over reliant on memes. Personally, I don't think they add or take anything away so I'll leave it at that. I'm not "attacking" her, I was giving an example, that I personally found pretty funny. Also, I think you're forgetting about some really uncomfortable early game lines (which I know Ame has mentioned before but it's not like she went back and edited them, so yes I'm mentioning them) for poc. Yeah, while there's pop culture references there's also awkward writing trappings like "I ain't afraid to smack a bitch" that I'm definitely sure a studio wouldn't do, unless they wanted a PR nightmare. Quote think you really disagree with Ame's game devphilosophies in which if she laid off of certain traits (such as silent protags) and did certain things the game would feel much more enjoyable to you...at least. I disagree with the use of a lot of the Pokemon tropes and standards used in Reborn, but mostpeople who pick up this game are going to bePokemon players and not RPG enthusiast such as myself. It has lead to some jarring and questionable choices and many turn offs, but no dev is immune to it. Even Intelligent Systems who botched the Paper Mario series (likely due to some back door publishing demands and executive decisions). And the irony here is that Ame is putting more focus into the game than before and it has shown in the progress and changes in the game to improve it. So if you say that now, I don't think a dev team would change much of how Reborn looks or the story. What you're calling philosophies, I'm calling mistakes. I actually love silent protagonists, I just think it's handled poorly in this game because the player as no agency. And because they're only watching other characters do awesome things, it feels like the only reason you player is the is to find the fish that was stolen from them in the beginning of the game. And yee, I read her interviews, so I remember that. I think it would change a lot if a studio got a hold of it, and the biggest changes would be the maps, characters, and dialogue. Sirius doesn't even talk like a real person to the point that he's on Riverdale's level of bad writing, half of the designs look terrible partly because a lot of the redrawn sprites need to be fixed. Some of the maps are too large, causing it to either be tedious or have weird graphical effects like sprites to disappear or become partially obscured. The desert in the game has areas where there's nothing but massive patches of sands making it annoying to navigate if you're looking for things in between the borders (like the ruins with all the garmchomp). Also, the reborn map itself has both a top down perspective, and a bit o a forward one, which is awfully confusing to look at and mostly useless. Probably cut out a lot of stuff in general, like bring down the number of badges from 18 to 8 so the game doesn't have to pad itself out with things like the strength quest where you go through 3 badges without accomplishing anything (except moving a rock). Edit: The story too. Mostly because the whole orphanage sequence makes very little sense when you think about it for longer than 3 minutes, which I know Ame has mentioned. Edit: And Corey's suicide. That desperately needs to be edited, because some "tribute" that was. And a whole lot of tonal problems, like a bunch of people being murdered in a terrorist attack and then Julia coming in like "explosions are soooo cool!" And most importantly, u get to ride the giant steelix. Suck it Saphira. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candy Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 Holy shité y'all typing analytical essays on just some dude not enjoying the game cause he forgets what had happened on the previous episode. No one's memory is perfect, but if you know it'll make you angry, I'd recommend only playing completed games. At this point the best scenario would be for shofu to wait until E19 and play from the beginning. Forget his original playthru since many things have been updated anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 2 hours ago, The Lonely God said: I think it would change a lot if a studio got a hold of it, and the biggest changes would be the maps, characters, and dialogue. Sirius doesn't even talk like a real person to the point that he's on Riverdale's level of bad writing, half of the designs look terrible partly because a lot of the redrawn sprites need to be fixed. Some of the maps are too large, causing it to either be tedious or have weird graphical effects like sprites to disappear or become partially obscured. The desert in the game has areas where there's nothing but massive patches of sands making it annoying to navigate if you're looking for things in between the borders (like the ruins with all the garmchomp). Also, the reborn map itself has both a top down perspective, and a bit o a forward one, which is awfully confusing to look at and mostly useless. Probably cut out a lot of stuff in general, like bring down the number of badges from 18 to 8 so the game doesn't have to pad itself out with things like the strength quest where you go through 3 badges without accomplishing anything (except moving a rock). The story too. Mostly because the whole orphanage sequence makes very little sense when you think about it for longer than 3 minutes, which I know Ame has mentioned. I actually had more, but at the end of the day I do need to make my posts not be essays so I picked the most important piece. Also, don't a lot of people love Riverdale? Anyways, a studio isn't meant to solve all your issues and faults. I hate to be blunt, but you are basically saying to censor Ame's ideas and designs. I always believe that a developer's creative freedom comes first and foremost and while Nintendo does do the questionable of shutting down Pokemon Fan Works, it has challenged devs to go above and beyond what they believe they can do. Just look at the Iwata asks of Xenoblade Chronicles which is regarded as one of the best RPGs of all time. What you are suggesting would not let Reborn go from Paper Mario to TTYD, but to the infamous Color Splash. You cannot have people barge in and force Ame to change big chunks of the game. I said once no Dev is immune to mistakes and faults, and it's a learning experience. People can help guide and throw suggestions, but at the end of the day Pokemon Reborn is Ame's dream and nobody should stop her from doing what she wants. And many people have thrown their thoughts and helped Reborn and Ame improve over time. But let's be theoretical and say that this game was being published as an Indy game on the Nintendo branch. Let's go to presentation day and a board of people are playing a demo to get the feel and experience of it. The opening statement most likely would be "This game is a little bit differently then what we are used to, but I actually enjoyed many ideas of it" and would list off many of the positive traits of why they enjoyed the experience. I do believe they would have some issues and they wouldn't be afraid of saying something. Let's take exploring the desert for example. I suppose someone would go "You seem to be fond of big maps, but walking around them does get tiring to find every nook and cranny. Perhaps you could add something similar to the Tauros on Route 1 to make it much faster to explore." And if anything is unacceptable to their standards they would say so. Kind of like many of us have been doing. And also not trying to tarnish Ame here, but you are acting like a million dollar budget will save everything. If Reborn went the Mighty No 9 method and got that huge of a budget, I feel Reborn would've flopped hard. I know Ame is familiar with a majority of RPGmaker mechanics, but I'm not sure how well she'd manage trying to run a team through an engine she's unfamiliar with. And if Ame is reading this, what would you even do with a million dollars? Just curious. 1 hour ago, Candy said: Holy shité y'all typing analytical essays on just some dude not enjoying the game cause he forgets what had happened on the previous episode. No one's memory is perfect, but if you know it'll make you angry, I'd recommend only playing completed games. At this point the best scenario would be for shofu to wait until E19 and play from the beginning. Forget his original playthru since many things have been updated anyway. I think he legit stopped though he could be taking a couple months break before hopping back in again. Who knows. Also, nerd will be nerds with their essays and opinions. And funny enough, I'm just thinking of all the things I wouldn't believe since Shofu first started playing Reborn and like wow: -Nintendo would make a portable tablet -Tales of Vesperia PS3 would be localized -There'd be two more smash games after brawl -Pokemon Reborn would influence many others to create their own fan-games -The Zeta/Omnicron dev would make a sequel -KOS-MOS would appear in another Xeno game -Ridley made it into Smash -Gay marriage is considered legal everywhere in the US -Trump would become president -I'd be dumb enough to make a hard mode of Reborn -Zelda would become open world -Another Mario 64 type game would be created -KH3 would actually be released -FFVII would get a remake -Loot Boxes and the Gacha Market would boom -FE Gaiden would get a remake -Field Effects would become a thing ...Wow a lot happened since I was a wee newbie on the forums. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Drakyle Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 I'm surprised this salt mine hasn't dried up like now we got the essays being written it's starting to turn into Word War. At the end of the day i don't like Shofu's opinion, i disagree with it, i do not fully understand his reasons for his opinions but his fans seem like parrots repeating his complaints and those people deserve more of this essay salt then he does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candy Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 1 hour ago, Lord Drakyle said: Word War I see what u did there But yep p much. I wish his fanbase wasn't so easily "manipulated" by Shofu's personal opinions. Everyone enjoys different things, and just because it wasn't his game doesn't mean it won't be another person's. Just for reference, I like reading every single dialogue that goes on, and Reborn has been a good game imo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abyssreaper99 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 7 hours ago, Lord Drakyle said: I'm surprised this salt mine hasn't dried up like now we got the essays being written it's starting to turn into Word War. At the end of the day i don't like Shofu's opinion, i disagree with it, i do not fully understand his reasons for his opinions but his fans seem like parrots repeating his complaints and those people deserve more of this essay salt then he does. The posts on this topic has gone from talking about Shofu and his audience to evaluating the game (some seem to just focus on the negatives whilst others give a more balanced opinion such as Commander's evaluations where he does link it back to what Shofu has said in his videos in some areas). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyumia Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 19 hours ago, Commander said: but at the end of the day Pokemon Reborn is Ame's dream and nobody should stop her from doing what she wants. And many people have thrown their thoughts and helped Reborn and Ame improve over time. Umm, but it's not... Exactly. Ame didn't work on most of the concepts, mostly the field effects are hers and some other mechanics and events (notably the most controversial ones). She didn't even come up with the region. The game is mostly straight from the roleplay, which again is why theres so many problems with the plot being nonsensical. Her stuff, like Fern being more dickish and dissing Corey who committed suicide even though it's a "tribute", including that fact that Luna's owner had a custody dispute and disappeared, etc. My point is that I don't really care about the censorship of her ideas because they're generally disrespectful and poorly written. The attempts to make the game more challenging aren't even relevant because Pokemon already has ways to prevent you from over leveling and keyed up AI for gym matches and elite four battles (which is already in Pokemon essentials). Of course, because it's a fangame people like it (including myself). It isn't hard to get a grasp on Pokemon though because it's meant for kids, even as the series matures (note that mature does not mean grimdark), so even then the difficulty doesn't work because people can come up with other strats that have existed in the series (like Moody bibarel, which is banned on smogon for a reason). Edit: Technically, all you'd need to do to make the game more difficult is turn off shift and apply the battle tree AI to like... Everyone. Then the game really would be impossible to beat for like 80% of the players. I also don't see how making the map better would hurt her "vision". Especially the part of taking out Mons because they don't slot into the very specific solution they want the player to use which is Squenix levels of petty. (Plus fact this makes Pokemon feel like tools to collect and then dump in your PC rather than, idk, living beings that you like and want around. This is somewhat improved by the follower mod, but then it just reminds me of my copy of soul silver that someone's stole and makes me a little dead inside.) Even if it's a fan game, I'm not going to grade it on a curve. I think every dev should ask themselves "If I sold this game, and it didn't have this label attached to it for appeal, would people want to play it?" Here's the interview that mentions how the plot came to be btw. Interview Quote Also, don't a lot of people love Riverdale? They do, but the show's queer baiting, bad writing, plot, cartoonish villainy, an poor portrayal of mental illness really made it unbearable to watch. I'm told it also doesn't even resemble the original comics, or the more mature reboot, but I never regularly read Archie personally. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abyssreaper99 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 8 minutes ago, The Lonely God said: Here's the interview that mentions how the plot came to be btw. Interview Commander knows how the plot came to be, he's been around for years and is a veteran on the forums like yourself. In fact, Commander usually tells people when they're misinformed about something to do with the community and how Reborn came to be. Also to people evaluating the game, please remember this threads purpose is talking about Shofu's playthrough and what our thoughts are on his reaction to the game. Also to how his fans reacted too! If you wish to discuss the game and how it's written then create a separate thread covering this or discuss it through PMs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 4 hours ago, Abyssreaper99 said: Commander knows how the plot came to be, he's been around for years and is a veteran on the forums like yourself. In fact, Commander usually tells people when they're misinformed about something to do with the community and how Reborn came to be. Also to people evaluating the game, please remember this threads purpose is talking about Shofu's playthrough and what our thoughts are on his reaction to the game. Also to how his fans reacted too! I would say that I came roughly when league ended (I think season 3 started and was going around when I joined) and for all but 7 or so months of the development time of the game. That doesn't always mean I can't be wrong or incorrect as I am just shy of what we consider the old guard. I've learned to back off more and usually jump into the fray if I have stuff I feel people more than just the person I'm arguing with will find interesting. But alas, I am still part of the problem here of prolonging it. And jumping back to Shofu's playthrough, there are a lot of feelings of his I understand. Shofu has been playing and supporting Reborn for 5 years. He and I likely had very similar views as Reborn was and felt very different 5 years ago and we were also a lot younger. I was in high school when I first played Reborn. Our opinions of the games were pretty similar and we had reactions the same as many of you newbies. It was a very faulty, but fun experience. But in 5 years things changed such as longer waiting times and mechanics which are hit and miss with the fans with field effects being one of the biggest. This does affect your experience as you think more and more on the negatives as times goes on and many fans jump ship of Shofu's playthrough due to the long delays. Have you ever tried picking up a game you set down for years. I did that with Tales of Graces F and...first it was torture (being the second to last dungeon in the game) then it was fun again. Imagine doing this 7 times which each time getting longer between the last. You don't want to replay the game since that'd be so much progress wasted. The other issue is that Shofu focuses on the main content which is a small, maybe insignificant, portion of each episode release. Imagine waiting a year to play a game for an hour. I'd be very unhappy if that's all the game offered in a year and it'd add to my negative views. He was still optimistic even in E16 but it seems E18 was finally the tipping point. I said it was kind of unacceptable after all those years a small demo is what Rising Phoenix published so I can't say people shouldn't say the long dev times are hampering the game. I think he's more falling out of Pokemon as seen in his Phoenix Rising and Clockwork runs. But back on topic, many of the long following fans will start to be more pessimistic about Reborn waiting on it for years and years. I went from a hardcore fan (pun not intended) to thinking the game is alright and fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chase Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 When I started following Reborn Shofu legitimately had a great time playing the game. He was always really bad at puzzles, but he seemed to take failure better when he was younger because he was actually enjoying the Pokemon battles. Shofu wasn't a Smash-tuber, and Reborn, if I remember correctly, would be a hit among viewers when Pokemon was having slow news periods and games were getting stale. Evolving a Pokemon in Reborn was an event worth watching an episode for, as he would freestyle over the evolution music, and would follow it up with laughter and hype. I always thought when the grind started to hit Shofu in his later years that it would be really good for this game if another PokeTuber began playing it without any additional rules, on top of Shofu playing the game. I grew up watching people like Shadypengun (who certainly -at least recently- had a falling out with Pokemon) and Haydunn (who I think still likes Mons and was just as entertaining a nuzlocke player and spotlight on fangames as he was a competitive battler in lower Smogon tiers. I think it's a testament to how well off Reborn actually does that someone like King Nappy and his crew are doing a ......(what the heck is a penta-op)........thing with Reborn themselves. It's still marketable as a free experience, and we have people that are more recently picking up the story, so that their playthroughs can march on even longer than they normally would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juice Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 Shady more so had a falling out with Youtube more so than Pokemon itself. He's pretty much Twitch only now and porting over content. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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