Sun and Moon Tier Discussion [WARNING: SPOILERS]

[NickCrash]

It prohibits all non-damaging moves. At least that's what happened in Gen6. I doubt they changed it. (ninja'd)

As for Lycanroc-D (yes from now on we shall refer to them as Lycanroc-D and Lycanroc-N) it appears to work as a fast physical revenge killer in a tier without overpowered ultra beasts. Sand Rush may be an option (the only one lol), but I prefer to use it as a regular set-up mon or banded with priority Rock to get rid of annoying Bug and Fire types. If Talonflame's popularity does not drastically decrease (as admittedly it still has a nice 126 base speed), Lycanroc-D is a nice counter to it, even without much defensive investment. Sad thing is, this is Gen7's Flareon; NO MOVES

I have no idea how to use Nekrozma. It is too slow and currently overshadowed by the OP-ness of the early Gen7 era. If anyone has made a good team around it, please give me hints how to use it effectively.

Oh and I refuse to use the abomination that is Buzzwole.

[Raindrop Valkyrie]

Buzzwole seems... awful tbh... the more I look at it the more it seems like it's just overshadowed by Mega Cross which is seemingly easier to utilize in a lot of ways. It's probably not that bad and I'm probably jsut dumb... but it doesn't look that apeealing to me tbh.

Nekrozma seems... weird I figured it was Ubers jsut cause it seemed to be a Legend but I suppose I shouldn't have seeing as I just looked over it and wow... it... doesn't seem very good. Like... it seems real bad tbh...

Also you're right on Lycarock-D just Sand Rush seems way way better than it's other abilites so I cna't really see using the others LOL.

[Eldon]

Warning, opinions ahead! Advance with caution and understanding. (Opinions may be subject to change at a moments notice and without the readers consent. Thank you for your understanding.)

Alola Sandslash with slush rush is easily Ou with Alola ninetails being like ttar is to excadrill. Slap a choice band on it and have hail running, then you have a real threat on your hands.

Also as one of the ones who used Kartana recently, I can support that it really needs to go. Just because it's predictable doesn't make it any easier to deal with in the hands of a good player. Just look at what scarfed salamence can do once you pick off the opponents fairies. They just lose and that's pretty much that. It's easily at least OU and most likely uber since it's basically a better salamence in terms of stats and move pool for the sun and moon meta.

Tapu koko is very close to ubers but not quite. Kind of like talonflame was last gen. It's very fast and hit's very hard with acces to U-turn.

Tapu fini is blacklist in my opinion. (Blacklist - Not strong enough to be OU, but too strong to be UU.) It's basically a suicune that sets up terrain and has fairy typing, but doesn't have rest. It's also a pretty good defogger with it's typing, bulk and access to scald. However because your speed stat, running the specs set for tapu fini is just asking to be electrocuted or hit by a leaf blade in the current meta. It works, but other mons are just better at specs. There's a reason crawdaunt is blacklisted and not quite Ou. (It hit's hard but dies fast.) And don't get me started with how ferrothorn just destroys tapu fini.

Silvally being one of the last ones I used on my team would probably be OU. It has a lot of quirky things it can do with it's type, but lacks stats to back up it's coverage move pool. You'd basically run it to fill in that awkward spot that your not sure what to do with on your team. I say this because mew has a great move pool with base 100 on all it's stats yet it isn't uber and is mostly just used for support. silvally has slightly lower stats and not very many support moves, just coverage. This means that while you can hit a lot of mons for X2 damage you really can't knock out anything in one go. It's type gimmick is too strong for UU, but not enough to cut it in Ubers, so I rate it an OU mon. Maybe blacklist?

(Silvally is hands down my favorite mon from sun and moon.)

[Raindrop Valkyrie]

I have no idea how to use Nekrozma. It is too slow and currently overshadowed by the OP-ness of the early Gen7 era. If anyone has made a good team around it, please give me hints how to use it effectively.

Oh and I refuse to use the abomination that is Buzzwole.

I looked into it a lot more and have been thinking around it but I just... don't think it'll be that useful. The thing has a rather shite typing in Psychic cause Psychic on it's own isn't really that amazing offensively or defensively. It's missing a lot of coverage moves, and has to rely on some really shitty low power moves to even obtain some of that coverage. For example it doesn't have Focus Blast access, in fact the only fighting move it has access to outside of Hidden Power... is Brick Break. It does get EQ but has to rely on it's weaker Physical attack for this with no way to boost it. Sadly it doesn't get Earth Power.

It gets Swords Dance, Calm Mind, Automatize, Rock Polish ((same thing really.)), and Iron Defense in the way of boosting moves. The thing is it doesn't really have a lot of good ways to force pressure to be able to get in and use them. Things I can think of at glance and not really entirely merit on the whole meta-game but more just for starting points.

I jsut think it doesn't really have an easy in to this Meta... when shit like Pheromosa are still around. It doesn't do all that well into Aegislash either though it has options to hit it in Dark Pulse and EQ. It also struggles with Dark Types in general... using it is goign to be a mighty uphill battle since finding it's tools and putting them together seems liek a herculean task. It's teammates will have to pick up a shitload o it's slack to the point I'm not even sure how feasible it is to even bother with trying to run.

Hmm, maybe I'll work on something with it. I doubt I'm going to get much of anywhere tbh but might as well start off teambuidling with something stupid. It's just the me thing to do so... letsa go~

[Noir]

Stufff about Toxapex

I actually really like Toxapex, and have been pretty interested in it for a while now, actually. It's not going to see much use now at a glance with Tapu Koko and Tapu Lele being everywhere, but I don't regret opting it as a temporary Pheromosa check (if not counter) as well as an extremely reliable physical wall and Toxic Spiker. Like, the thing has 50/152/142 defenses with Regenerator and Recover, you don't see that kind of thing every day. A set of Scald/Recover/Baleful Bunker/Toxic Spikes is pretty darn neat, especially considering that after the meta settles down, Toxapex will be good for dealing with things like Keldeo, MegaZard X and pretty much any physical attacker that doesn't have an SE move against it. It is less passive than Alomomola in my opinion and has more mixed bulk, with more utility in Toxic Spikes while sharing the same regenerative qualities. Baleful Bunker is also a middle finger to physical set up sweepers who rely on contact such as Mega Lopunny and the aforementioned Pheromosa (which while going to be banned) as I can block U-Turn and get a free Poison off it, while having Scald to deal with the Steel types it walls such as Scizor. This also distinguishes it from Slowbro who is weak to things like Scizor and Mega Heracross (both of which Toxapex does well against).

Mostly the appeal comes from the fact that Baleful Bunker (unless used on double-swtich) heavily disincentivizes U-Turn on one-v-one Scenarios (unless you're Scizor who is pretty much walled by it anyway) even if Poison may not be the most favorable status condition (but still helps).

It probably won't see high OU usage and will probably be either UU or RU, but I personally find it to be still be viable as a hazard setter with more longevity than Ferrothorn and the ability to check different things than other setters. You don't see most hazard setters checking Keldeo which this thing can do and much more.

And if god willing move tutors for S and M do come out (later, and quite likely tbh) this thing might even get Stealth Rock and Knock Off.

Edited November 21, 2016 by Noir

[Raindrop Valkyrie]

I think I said in there somewhere that I wasn't really sure how on earth to evaluate the little guy just cause it was such a strange mon. I did forget to entirely mention Baneful Bunker which was pretty daft of me seeing as it's in essence more powerful than Spiky Shield; Spiky Shield only doing the contact damage the first time and then they are probably going to play around it a hell of a lot better. Whereas Baneful's Poison Keeps racking up passive damage. It might not be as much as Toxic poison but it's enough to cancel out lefties etc... so it's doing soemthing. Water Poison is definitely an interesting Typing and I think Toxapex will end up probably being UU. Reason? It's basically a more defensive Qwilfish. Both have the same typing and Qwil is mainly used as a Hazard Setter. ((moreso using Spikes than T Spikes, but sometimes it uses both.))

Their offenses are even comparable as Qwil tends to run Scald > Waterfall, and it's base SpAtk is 55 which is pretty damn close to the stat Toxapex is attacking off of. They have a difference in how they function though as Qwilfish immediately does something with it's Intimidate and it allows it to switch in and find opportunities whereas Toxapex has to come in on something it walls. ((with those defenses it's probably possible but it's notable difference in their playstyles.)) However, as a result Toxapex is much easier to play the recovery game with keeping it healthy with it's ability, and it's access to recovery outside of things like Rest ((which aren't feasible for Qwilfish to run. It also notably has access to Pain Split, but we all know how unreliable that move is, so Qwilfish is just not in a space with reliable recovery.))

Since Toxapex seems to have a lot of what Qwilfish wishes it did ((though loses out on some things like Taunt that Qwilfish has... though it's not like Toxapex will outspeed anything it's trying to do that to and probably just find itself taunted itself anyway.)).

So, in at a glance comparisons... I think it's better than Qwilfish therefore it will either be higher tier than it, or replace it.

ALso been doing research, what would y'all reckon to Alolan Maro being a SpDef sponge? Being Ghost/Fire, it defs has to get Will-o-Wisp access and it's already decent Def stat of 110 is probably as high as it needs to be when counting Will-o so it should allow you to beef up that SpDef pretty hard.

Ghost/Fire is also a pretty amazing typing in Defensive merits, with Immunites to Fighting and Normal and resisting Fire, Grass, Ice, Poison, Double resisting Bug, Steel and Fairy types. It's quite the gambit of types and it can even add an immunity to that if it opts for Lightningrod. You'd not really get shit out of the SpAtk buff, but that immunity is pretty nuts as it kinda... makes Maro-A immune to Volt-Switch and makes U-Turn do fuck all to it due to the x4 immunity allowing you to slap a burn on whatever they are going to try and switch in racking up passive damage or, if you can guess their switch, smack them with the appropriate move ((which will fucking hurt assuming it can still use Thick Club.)) in response.

ANyone try him out at all? I'm kinda wanting to do so though not sure what to pair the guy with. I'd imagine making a F/W/G core around him might not be too bad an idea though.

((keep in mind... if above thing is common, I'm not really playing yet since I'm still doing research into the new mons and stuff before I teambuild. So, in what people are using currently I'm in a bit of a vacuum at the moment lol))

[daigotsurezan]

I'm a little surprised no one has mentioned Mimikyu yet. This is gonna sound insane, but hear me out:

Mimikyu

Adamant Nature / Disguise

Held Item: Normalium Z

Moves: Shadow Sneak / Play Rough / Wood Hammer / SPLASH (that is not a typo).

So as you know, Z-Moves aren't just for attacking! You can use a Z-Crystal with a relevant status move to produce stat changes, heal a Pokemon, and a few other miscellaneous results.

What you might not know is, Z-Splash gives +3 levels of attack boost. So, 1.5 Swords Dances.

Thanks to Disguise, Mimikyu is guaranteed to survive for one round of setup.

Mimikyu's above-average 96 speed will let it get the drop on a number of enemies with Play Rough or Wood Hammer, and if speed is essential, you have Shadow Sneak to get the priority attack in. Mimikyu's 90 attack isn't amazing on its own, but with +3 Attack it gets a lot scarier.

Probably not the absolutely strongest use of a team member, but certainly a memorable one!

(A similar build is possible with Tsareena, using Queenly Majesty and Trop Kick/High Jump Kick/U-Turn, but you lack the guaranteed setup of Disguise and lose some speed. Also, Mimikyu is way more hilarious.)

[Guzam]

Been playing pokebank OU for a couple days now, can say what is and isn't good from my perspective (Aka my opinion).

Lycanroc:

Currently the only stop to Scolipede passing I know of, and even then it's a check. Works as a fine SD sweeper and gets Stealth rock so it's p good. Def OU imo.

Mimikyu:

Pretty cool gimmick, but it lacks the coverage needed to murder everything in its path. Sure can hurt a whole lot though. Unfortunately doesn't outspeed haxorus or hydreigon. UU, maybe BL.

Mudsdale:

AV Mudsdale is p good and can hurt a lot of things while it's out, but can't do much to your usual skarm, chomp, lando-t or rotom-w. RU at worst, UU at best imo.

Each Tapu:

Honest to god, these things are all OU material. Terrain alone makes each viable in their own right, but add the power and movesets along with it and oh boy. Going into what makes each individual one good: Koko is the essential volt switcher to have on teams now that mega mane is gone. With electric terrain, it hits harder with its elec moves and can also hit Chomp with STAB DGleam, outspeed duggy and OHKO with grass knot and just hit really hard in general. Works well on volt-turn, and rain. Lele is such a hard fucking hitter. STAB Specs Psychic Terrain Psychic hurts so many things really hard and psychic terrain helps it beat priority. CM set pairs well with baton pass teams, other sets pair well with mega zam and frens who benefit from psychic boost and no priority. Bulu hits like a god damn truck too with banded wood hammer or superpower, but it can also run bulky sets with leech seed, protect, natures madness, etc. idk what it pairs well with however, it definitely needs steel support though to help it v poison types and ice types. Fini has found its own place on stall, being able to stop status, defog and scald away and use natures madness. Can't wait to see how the meta adapts to these.

UB's:

Nihilego: Good suicide lead, but it can also hit p hard and bulk special attacks. gets obliterated by scarfed ground types and non-balloon sets can't switch it on the threat of any ground move ever. I'd say UU at worst and OU at best tbh.

Buzzwole: There's 0 reason not to use this thing on Baton Pass teams. Hell, it even does well on non BP teams due to how fucking bulky it is and because of leech life. It can bulk up, leech life, ice punch, and EQ threats, and that covers a lot of mons in OU. It doesn't beat everything, but it's the go to physical wall of this gen imo.

Pheromosa: Banned

Xurkitree: Extremely viable on baton pass teams. Allowing it to get a speed and +3 nearly guarantees you'll lose. The thing is also a stall killer too. Dgleam, HP Fire and Tbolt provides fine enough coverage when paired with tail glow. Despite all this though, I don't know if I can see it getting banned. It's strong and all, but on teams that don't have baton pass, it's kind of lacking. Might get banned because it ruins the stall playstyle though. We'll have to wait and see. BL at worst, Ubers at best.

Kartana: Again, it could end up uber, but the lack of any special bulk whatsoever and speed tier that falls just short of the oh so acclaimed base 110 mark makes it tough to get behind, not to mention the lackluster moveset and coverage. Again, on baton pass teams, it could be a menace if it gets a sub passed to it and is allowed to set up SD, but it still can't really do much without it. UU at worst, ubers at best again.

Celesteela: Very mega altaria-esque mon. Love its coverage and typing, I can guarantee this will likely stay OU.

Guzzlord: Me and Baz talked about this one. It's too bad to be in UU, but a bulky specs set kind of obliterates lots of the RU tier. Will likely end up BL2 and see very minimal usage.

Shiinotic:

Must have on rain teams. Spore, Strength Sap, Leech Seed and Filler. It's really good in doubles too. Has decent bulk. Without rain, RU imo, with rain, OU.

Bewear:

Lol, this thing. AV and Rocky Helm sets are already taking off with it, it's p good and acts as an amazing physical wall. UU at worst and OU at best.

Alolan-Ninetales:

This thing has a very niche role on teams, but that does not mean it's bad, far from it actually. It's a snow setter with a cool offensive typing, aurora veil, screens, and freeze-dry. RU at worst and UU/BL at best.

Crabominable:

Had it not been for this things shit tier speed, it would've been the physical ice type that would decimate OU for a long while. Gets fantastic coverage in Ice/Fighting and banded iron fist sets will likely see the most usage, kind of like banded adaptability crawdaunt. RU/BL2 at worst UU/BL at best.

That's all for now, but i'll be back with more on mons like toxapex and frens.

Should mention my expected bans so far are: Pheromosa, Genesect, Greninja, Aegislash, Pelipper, Alolan-Exeggutor

[Deleted User]

I'll just make my own quick opinions about the list above in Pyrr's post.

Notation: More Likely/Less Likely

Lycanroc (Midday): BL - Accelerock is really awesome for STAB priority, it gets solid speed and attack but it gets UNISTAB.

Mimikyuu: UU - I'd like to mess around with Focus Sash sets and see where the 2 attacks can work out at in certain situations.

Mudsdale: RU - Because UU is filled with Bulky Waters (At least last gen) and many of them carry special attacks moreso than physical. If Mantine winds up UU then I guarantee this thing is RU.

Tapu Koko: OU

Tapu Lele: OU

Tapu Bulu: OU/BL

Tapu Fini: UU

Nihelgo: UU/BL (I'd probably go with a Choice or Life Orb set - Power Gem, Sludge Wave, Grass Knot, HP Fire) I don't see it being OU because of the abundance of Steel Types as well as Lando and other EQ users.

Buzzwole: OU/BL

Pheromosa: Ubers

Xuriktree: BL/UU

Kartana:BL/OU

Celesteela: OU

Guzzlord: BL2

Shiinotic: No opinion yet

Bewear: OU/BL This thing's physical bulk is redonkulous.

Alolan-Ninetails: BL3* Unless used specifically for a Hail Team.

Crabominable: NU/RU

Mantine: 50/50 on this one, OU/UU

Incineroar: RU/BL2* Hidden Ability Intimidate not yet released.

Primarina: UU

Decidueye: RU

EDIT:

[Guzam]

Was bout to make a post about Power Concunt, but Jeri beat me to the punch. Was fun while it lasted. Big boy zone is gone now :[

So.

Araquanid:

Water Bubble is too good to let it sit in tiers with mons that barely check it. The thing hits like a god damn atom bomb with water bubble and stab, but lack of coverage can hurt it. It is a hard counter to heatran though, only being beaten by toxic and rocks from it. It also has enough bulk to take some special flying moves, and elec moves so not a lot of special attackers can come in and one shot it easily. BL2 at worst BL at best.

Bruxish:

lol. jk, the thing is like a water/psychic sharpedo... pre speed boost. SD, Psychic Fang, Aqua Jet, Filler with Strong Jaw can hit pretty fucking hard, I think it has potential in lower tiers. I can't actually predict where it will go, but judging by how normal sharpedo does, i'd say RU.

Dhelmise:

I really did have high hopes for this thing, and I still do tbh, but probably not for long. I love the typing, ability and anchor shot, but its not enough to make it OU material. Loses to too many pursuit trappers, ice types and fire types that it can't outspeed. Maybe it can find it's own place in UU, away from mega venu, zard, ttar, weavile, bisharp heatran and friends. Rest well there buddy, please at least be UU, you have decent potential.

Drampa

PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFT. It's got really subpar bulk for a dragon, awful speed, but a godly special attack stat. Specs set is going to be wild considering your opponent will almost always get you down to half health. +1 Specs Draco is going to fucking hit hard. However, that alone can't carry it into any tier higher than RU imo. Suffers the same fate as Dragalge... Oh wait. The thing actually has a movepool. It could take advantage of CM sets, and glare, and its wide variety of moves could help it reliably kill many things that try to switch in on it. Still, much like Guzzlord, I doubt it will break past BL2 ever. Will likely be RU and we'll see what happens from there.

Definitely going to have to add more, 4 mons is too short.

[Raindrop Valkyrie]

When I first saw Aquanid I was like... "well both of this things offenses kinda suck.": Then I saw the unholy madness that is it's ability that is basically huge power for water moves... though I suppose outside of it's water moves it won't pack much of a punch as it only really prevents burns, okay that's actually stupid good. Look Water Bubble is insanity as it's basically three abilities in a single ability as it's Water Veil + "Huge Power" that only works on water moves + Heatproof.

((though it's something to be sad when Mono-Attacking water is still probably the best mono attack type. Like, if this thing got a boosting move for it's attack or special attack it could easily run a Resttalk set with CM, or SD and Water Stab of choice with either Liquidation or Scald. Luckily,it doesn't get either...))

Do kinda wish it had some kind of hazards like maybe Sticky Web cause it might be a user of that move that isn't complete arse, so maaaaaybe it'd see some usage. ((but still not, it's not that great.)), or Spikes. Due to it's bulk and sky high powerful water moves it could probably find enough things it could pop in on and exert enough pressure to get out some hazards for sure. Dunno, as just a big bulky attacker it seems not ideal since yes, it's water moves hit for a truckload but it seems pretty anemic outside of that. I think it's interesting though, if not a bit sad they had to jam that much power into it's ability to make it worthwhile.

On Dhelmise, yea it's so unfortunate cause damn if it's not a cool mon. I sorta love the thing but I didn't even consider it for the team I'm working on. Cause I knew it's just get wrecked in OU cause there's too much stuff at a glance that pressures the hell out of it, it's speed is problematic and further it doesn't quite have the tools in it's moveset to deal with a lot of the stuff that does threaten it, least in OU. I love it's ability basically giving it a third stab, especially off of something like Anchor Shot which a cool move. tbh, I kinda wish one of the mons with the trapping attacks was faster cause they could take WAY better advantage of it on predicted switches ((trapping in double switchs etc etc...)) it's just sad that both have real lacklustre speed tiers, Decideye's being 70ish but even that's pretty slow... ((heck it's honestly worse than Dhelmise's since at least Dhelmise could be used on like Trick Room shenanigan teams a heck of a lot easier than Decideye due to it's deadzone speed.))

Also... I'm glad I'll starting after Zygarde-Complete was banned. Cause...eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeew. I was watching a few showdown lives after I saw the ban. ((since I'm subbed to POkeaim, but wasn't watching as much Sun/Moon stuff until I saw that and realized, huh... probably should for reserach purposes.)) but ye,,, my lord that ability was grooooooooooooooooooss. Not sure how that thing wasn't mentioned at all in a lot of the ban forecasts. Cause that thing is disgusting with that much bulk... and you basically had to ohko in it's small form or just lose, but thanks to Sub... good freaking luck.

[BurningToTheLast]

phermosa has way to much coverage and variety. She can run life orb, band, scarf, etc. A simple set to sweep is that she has high attack (adamant nature) with high speed (which is already high enough) give her a scarf she outspeeds most mons and gets her attack bosted every time she knocks one out. She cant stay in ou. she too strong for it.

That setup I said above is just one of the many builds you can give her. She has so much more builds

Well, while everything you said is very true, there are some very simple ways to deal with pheromosa. Pheromosa's movepool is far from diverse, forcing it to only run dual STAB with ice beam and poison jab as fillers, so there are some pokemon capable of walling this thing, specifically bulky poison types like Toxapex, and Mega Venusaur have the bulk and typing to switch into pheromosa. Mega Sableye can efficiently wall it as well. (on mega venusaur's case, not as much beause its recovery is limited to synthesis and its defenses and typing are less ideal than toxapex's and mega sableye's, but its still an option)

We can also see that pheromosa has some non-existent defenses meaning priority of any kind blows it into next christmas, meaning talonflame, dragonite, bisharp, mega pinsir, weavile, and others can OHKO it with their priority moves. Pheromosa may be a hard hitter, but its definitely not broken.

Edited November 26, 2016 by ryklan002

[Jelly]

yall are all complaining about these new mons but half of them are checked/hard walled by alolan marowak

[The darn 4th chaos emerald]

I just hope Decidueye is good lol

[NickCrash]

Right now it's not. As soon as we get the tiers back, it can function as a good wallbreaker in UU or RU.

[Garnet.]

yall are all complaining about these new mons but half of them are checked/hard walled by alolan marowak

FACTS, marowak runs the tier

i think pheromosa is gonna get banned. at first i thought it was gonna be a quick ban but that was like 3 days of the meta being alive, but its still absurdly powerful. even tho you can check it, sometimes you have to put 2-3 mons on a team to stop it. bug/fighting/poison or ice is almost perfect coverage, barring aegislash, marowak, and toxapex. It can run a lot of different sets, and if it wanted to it could run hp ground to beat these mons. aegi is busted and walls everything so unless its specs pheromosa can't do much damage to it in shield form.

while this also has nothing to do with anyone else, i found that I had to put at least two counters on a team to stop pheromosa from winning, and if your sole counter to pheromosa is marowak with leftovers being its form of recovery it gets worn down quickly, on top of rocks. it is absurdly powerful. buzzwole is a counter to pheromosa too, unless its running hp flying.

the max hp max attack adamant set for buzzwole is really fun too. its so bulky and it gets to set up on things like toxapex and a lot of physical attackers because its incredibly bulky and nothing can break the sub in 1 hit. i run sub/dual stab+ quake for aegi, but you need life orb to 2-hit ko toxapex with quake because its bulk is so good.

gen 7 has been really fun so far. im sorry if uh, that bit about pheromosa sounded like i was complaining, even when i get swept by that thing im actually having a blast. hope everyone else is too.

[The Radiant Aeon]

Just sayin, baneful bunker toxapex is actually fraudulent and you deserve to get swept by Magearna/Pinser/ect if you spam it. Its not kings shield, it doesn't make you play chess, drop that move

But yeah Alolamuk and Alolawak are def the best of the regional variants. AV Adamant Muk is a good check for all of the guardians but the bool, and can beat aegislash 1v1 even after king shield (basically a slightly gimped bisharp) but of course aegis is 1) gonna be banned soon and 2) still has that game of chess that everyone hates. Nothing also wants to switch into a knock off obviously, and it can check/beat some weird gimmicks people seem to use like hail/bruxish/decidueye for freelo. easily OU pre-pokebank, but will certainly drop post with every ban + old threats coming back. Alolawak is the same where it will most definitely not be a staple post-pokebank due to incoming bans/suspects, but has so many great niches like making elecs practically invalid that it will always have a place in the meta. Excellent defensive typing with a natural immunity to 2 types with an added immunity to elecs, excellent movepool, a signature item that makes it a great wall breaker, access to rocks/knock post-bank, reliable status spreader AND absorber, and it pairs nicely with relevant threats AND future threats. it could end up UU/BL depending on how the meta goes into post-bank, but it will certainly be a pivotal mon for a while.

edit: "pivotal" lol

edit2: I think I made an overstatement about marowak. simply because it can do everything I mentioned doesn't mean its as amazing as I make it seem, though I do take back how it won't be a common post-bank mon simply because its niches are very nice to have as a pivot.

Edited November 28, 2016 by The Radiant Aeon

[Shanco]

Not much talk about Super Doggo lately. So let's bring up Zygarde's 10% Forme real quick. Do note though, I'm not calling this thing OP by any means.

 

 

 

Highest base stats: Speed (115), Attack (100)

Type: Ground/Dragon

Ability: Aura Break

Projected use: Physical set-up sweeper

 

Zygarde's stats in its 10% Forme are much better catered to sweeping than its bulkier counterparts. High Speed and Attack, but terrible Special Attack, and okay-ish defenses which are offset by awful HP. Dragon/Ground is a noteworthy coverage combination, especially given we're going to see a lot of Electric-types like Tapu Koko in OU, but with things like floating Fairies and Skarmory...wait. Thousand Arrows hits airborne Pokemon like Skarmory and knocks them down to the ground, ignoring Flying type traits and things like Levitate and Air Balloon. This means that with Extreme Speed, this Pokemon has perfect coverage with 115 Speed, not to mention the potent offense of Dragon-type Outrage augmenting its sweeping powers even further.

 

It does have a major weakness though. Any bulky Ice-type will immediately put an end to its rampage. Things like Kyurem, Crabominable can make life miserable for Zygarde by switching into it then sending it packing the next turn. In the OU metagame, it will be hard-checked by Tapu Fini. That's the key though; defensive Ice- or Fairy-types. Pokemon like Weavile and Tapu Lele do not have the bulk to survive a Thousand Arrows>Extreme Speed combo. Overall, Zygarde becomes an extreme threat if it is left to set up one or two Swords Dances, but it simply does not have the bulk to survive in the standard metagame. In Underused it will either thrive and dominate, or it will plain suck. 115 Speed and this kind of coverage is too much for RU however. At worst, it will be BL2.

 

Example set:

Zygarde-T @ Life Orb / Groundium Z

Ability: Aura Break

EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd

Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk) / Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)

- Thousand Arrows

- Extreme Speed

- Swords Dance / Dragon Dance

- Outrage / Rock Slide / Stone Edge

 

Zygarde 10% gets by through simple brute force. Thousand Arrows and Extreme Speed give perfect coverage, which is helpful given the Ground-type STAB that annihilates almost anything in two hits after an Attack boost (even Fliers like Skarmory). For the boost in Attack, Swords Dance is usually better than Dragon Dance given Zygarde's already good Speed and use of a priority move, but if you want to beat out Weavile and scarf users, Dragon Dance is there. Rock Slide and Stone Edge also help deal with fliers that don't have a Ground weakness, but sometimes Outrage is better suited for the job due to its raw offensive power. Zygarde has no perfect answer for Fairies though. He just has to try plow through them. Life Orb and Groundium Z both help with augmenting Zygarde's power to extreme levels, but beware that applying Z to Thousand Arrows will remove its ability to hit Flying-types. Your choice of nature is also important; while Adamant is great due to priority moves and already outspeeding nature-boosted base 100s, it needs Jolly in order to outspeed Garchomp, Lati@s and Thundurus. I would recommend Adamant only if you have sufficient Ice-type offense to deal with these Pokemon.

 

Projected tier: BL

 

[pyrromanis]

16 hours ago, Shanco said:

Pokemon like Weavile and Tapu Lele do not have the bulk to survive a Thousand Arrows>Extreme Speed combo.

Just to note, that Tapu Lele's Psychic Terrain makes it immune to Espeed. Also, Dogarde would much better if we get the Iron Tail tutor next game (or it can be available from previous Zygarde of gen 6) and choice sets like banded would be alot better!

[Shanco]

15 hours ago, pyrromanis said:

Just to note, that Tapu Lele's Psychic Terrain makes it immune to Espeed.

It already outspeeds regardless of natures, and +1 Thousand Arrows with Life Orb + Adamant is a guaranteed OHKO on Tapu Lele.

If Zygarde runs Jolly Nature instead, Swords Dance can still cause Thousand Arrows to OHKO, even if Tapu Lele runs max Defense EVs (which I don't see it doing due to its poor base Defense).

+1 Thousand Arrows also OHKOs Skarmory after Stealth Rock.

The raw power of this set is just nuts.

[Noir]

On 12/6/2016 at 0:03 PM, Shanco said:

Not much talk about Super Doggo lately. So let's bring up Zygarde's 10% Forme real quick. Do note though, I'm not calling this thing OP by any means.

 

 

  Hide contents

Highest base stats: Speed (115), Attack (107)

Type: Ground/Dragon

Ability: Aura Break

Projected use: Physical set-up sweeper

 

Zygarde's stats in its 10% Forme are much better catered to sweeping than its bulkier counterparts. High Speed and Attack, but terrible Special Attack, and okay-ish defenses which are offset by awful HP. Dragon/Ground is a noteworthy coverage combination, especially given we're going to see a lot of Electric-types like Tapu Koko in OU, but with things like floating Fairies and Skarmory...wait. Thousand Arrows hits airborne Pokemon like Skarmory and knocks them down to the ground, ignoring Flying type traits and things like Levitate and Air Balloon. This means that with Extreme Speed, this Pokemon has perfect coverage with 115 Speed, not to mention the potent offense of Dragon-type Outrage augmenting its sweeping powers even further.

 

It does have a major weakness though. Any bulky Ice-type will immediately put an end to its rampage. Things like Kyurem, Crabominable can make life miserable for Zygarde by switching into it then sending it packing the next turn. In the OU metagame, it will be hard-checked by Tapu Fini. That's the key though; defensive Ice- or Fairy-types. Pokemon like Weavile and Tapu Lele do not have the bulk to survive a Thousand Arrows>Extreme Speed combo. Overall, Zygarde becomes an extreme threat if it is left to set up one or two Swords Dances, but it simply does not have the bulk to survive in the standard metagame. In Underused it will either thrive and dominate, or it will plain suck. 115 Speed and this kind of coverage is too much for RU however. At worst, it will be BL2.

 

Example set:

Zygarde-T @ Life Orb / Groundium Z

Ability: Aura Break

EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd

Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk) / Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)

- Thousand Arrows

- Extreme Speed

- Swords Dance / Dragon Dance

- Outrage / Rock Slide / Stone Edge

 

Zygarde 10% gets by through simple brute force. Thousand Arrows and Extreme Speed give perfect coverage, which is helpful given the Ground-type STAB that annihilates almost anything in two hits after an Attack boost (even Fliers like Skarmory). For the boost in Attack, Swords Dance is usually better than Dragon Dance given Zygarde's already good Speed and use of a priority move, but if you want to beat out Weavile and scarf users, Dragon Dance is there. Rock Slide and Stone Edge also help deal with fliers that don't have a Ground weakness, but sometimes Outrage is better suited for the job due to its raw offensive power. Zygarde has no perfect answer for Fairies though. He just has to try plow through them. Life Orb and Groundium Z both help with augmenting Zygarde's power to extreme levels, but beware that applying Z to Thousand Arrows will remove its ability to hit Flying-types. Your choice of nature is also important; while Adamant is great due to priority moves and already outspeeding nature-boosted base 100s, it needs Jolly in order to outspeed Garchomp, Lati@s and Thundurus. I would recommend Adamant only if you have sufficient Ice-type offense to deal with these Pokemon.

 

Projected tier: BL

 

....Zygarde's Attack is a constant base 100 regardless of form, so I have no idea where you got the 107 Base Attack from. 

 

Also, Thousand Arrows does not deal Super Effective damage on Skarmory for the first hit. It can 2HKO it due to the second hit being SE, but not the first hit. I have no idea where you got these calcs from, especially considering stuff like Zygarde-10% aren't even implemented yet. To put it in perspective though:

 

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Zygarde-10% Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 136-161 (40.7 - 48.2%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

 

Zygarde-10% works best with a Choice Band set as it basically entails to "spam Thousand Arrows and ExtremeSpeed". Only things like Tapu Bulu and super physical walls will really want to switch in on this thing when it's Banded. Thousand Arrows is very easily spammable.

 

[AuthorReborn]

 

On 12/5/2016 at 9:03 PM, Shanco said:

In the OU metagame, it will be hard-checked by Tapu Fini. That's the key though; defensive Ice- or Fairy-types. Pokemon like Weavile and Tapu Lele do not have the bulk to survive a Thousand Arrows>Extreme Speed combo

I mean, this simply isn't true. CB Garde Dog can often 3HKO maxed out Defense/HP Tapu Fini 

 

calc:  +1 252 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Fini: 120-142 (34.8 - 41.2%) -- 72.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

And on the second point, Tapu Lele doesn't need to be able to live a Thousand Arrows+E-Speed because of Psychic Terrain. Although it certainly should be noted it has a strong chance of dying to a single CB Thousand Arrows after rocks/any prior damage without any defensive investment. 

 

calc for that too:  +1 252 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 234-276 (83.2 - 98.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

I could see Smogon banning Thousand Arrows at some point if the Garde Dog truly gets out of hand, but as it stands I doubt it. Without Thousand Arrows, it is basically Lycanroc (Midday) with different typing. 

[Shanco]

1 hour ago, AuthorReborn said:

I could see Smogon banning Thousand Arrows at some point if the Garde Dog truly gets out of hand, but as it stands I doubt it. Without Thousand Arrows, it is basically Lycanroc (Midday) with different typing. 

If Thousand Arrows gets banned it could possibly be due to Zygarde-Complete. However, Garde Dog could see a lot of standard meta use since it outspeeds Garchomp while having Extreme Speed and two boosters. Only problem is it's a lot worse against physical attackers due to lack of access to Rough Skin (or any half-decent ability for that matter) and worse HP. It lacks Garchomp's sheer utility.

[Govictory]

all of this talk about the new pokemon in singles but i feel some VGC coming on

 i believe ribombee will have some useage in VGC formats due to that signature move it has where it can heal your ally mons at will or hurt your opponent which fills the role of recovery move and offensive stab in one move slot. it seems really gimmicky but fun at the same time to run with say a follow me eviolite clefairy? i can't wait to see the utter insanity it can do if it is truly useable.

[Caradius]

1 hour ago, Govictory said:

all of this talk about the new pokemon in singles but i feel some VGC coming on

 i believe ribombee will have some useage in VGC formats due to that signature move it has where it can heal your ally mons at will or hurt your opponent which fills the role of recovery move and offensive stab in one move slot. it seems really gimmicky but fun at the same time to run with say a follow me eviolite clefairy? i can't wait to see the utter insanity it can do if it is truly useable.

 

You have a point, but  Comfey who has a better healing move which gains priority (+3) thanks to triage and aromatherapy which definitely helps with status moves would make it a better support mon. Granted ribombee is faster with some good stab offensive moves as well as the capability of having aromatherapy as well, it's bug typing gives it a slight disadvantage comparing it to comfey because of the additional weaknesses which are more apparent in the meta of rock sliding heat waving spammers. While Ribombee may have the advantage in its god tier `124 base speed' its more frail than Comfey comparing its 60/60/70  defences to 51/90/110 defences of Comfey.

 

Comfey also has access to Grassy Terrain which can help to remove the terrain brought by other Tapu's barring Bulu, but most importantly it can remove the annoying psychic terrain of Tapu Lele at will which could be valuable depending on the situation. 

 

Fun note - a stupid combo i came across while trying out BSdoubles was running into a comfey with an AV mudsdale..... that mudsdale did not die .... 

Edited December 8, 2016 by Caradius