Sun and Moon Tier Discussion [WARNING: SPOILERS]

[Lord Chespin]

252+ Atk Choice Band Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Bewear: 344-408 (77.4 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Just... just this.

YEAH MY BOY BEWEAR LAUGHS AT YOUR ANYTHING GOES BEAST

[NickCrash]

One needs to play with bulky teams to survive the new meta. I haven't seen any megas yet.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-479070349

Edit:

Specs Tapu-Koko is a beast. Might need a suspect.

Kartana needs to go. The scarf set is devastating for any team.

Lycanroc is the only thing to stop Scolipede.

[Guzam]

Before i list anything else today, I can confirm that baton pass teams are still broken and the only counter to bp scoli is lycanroc (and that's only when scoli is out and doesn't have a sub yet)

[Deleted User]

Calling for the first round of bans to be:

Pheromosa

Aegislash

Greninja

I don't think Xuriktree needs to be banned. It's lacking coverage and without scarf it's not terribly fast.

[NickCrash]

It's funny how Toxapex is in every second team just because all the broken shit from Gen6Ubers came back to OU.

[Jmanultrax1]

buzzwole is definitely on a level of its own. My opinion is that it needs to be baned

[Deleted User]

Buzzswole is honestly just a slightly juiced Heracross.

[Raindrop Valkyrie]

Heracross Reg:

80 HP 125 ATK 75 DEF 40 SpATK 95 SpDEF 85 SPD

Heracross Mega

80 HP 185 ATK 115 DEF 40 SpATK 105 SpDEF 75 SPD

Buzzswole

107 HP 139 ATK 139 DEF 53 SpATK 53 SpDEF 79 SPD

So, just a quick grab of their stats and it'll be decently easy to compare them due to the fact that their typings are similar and even abilities in a way.

So Buzzswole is basically Mega Heracross if they kept it with Moxie in a way. Beast Boost will mostly likely always work like Moxie which Heracross has access to. most of their relevant stats are similar, as their distributions are very close other than in the defenses.

Actual Mega Heracross has much higher attack, though it loses Moxie, but also has access to Skill Link. It also has much more general bulk, Like it's barely less bulky on the defense side but it's a HELL of a lot bulkier on the Special Side ((it's has nearly double the effective defense on that side.)), However, Buzzswole is extremely tanky on the physical side if using Lunge as it always drops the opposing attack stat by a stage making it a lot harder to threaten with Physical attackers probably even those packing flying moves due to how bulky it's physical side is when taking Lunge into considerationas well as the possible Bulk Up on Buzzswole.

They have similar levels of speed and coverage ((and high power coverage in Mega Cross's situation.)) though maredly Buzzswole does have a lot of niche options I suppose but their usages would be insanely narrow ((other than Maybe Ice Punch.)) cause they seem mostly like 80ish BP or lower, which work ye, but only tend to topple 4x weaknesses or frail mons unboosted.

I dunno. I don't see Buzzswole being more than OU the same as Mega Hera, especially since it's forced into running Superpower, Dynamic Punch, Hammer Arm, or Focus Punch for a powerful Fighting STAB. THe only ones that don't drop your stats or have some drawback are Vital Throw, or Brick Break as it doesn't get access to Drain Punch etc... It has trouble finding a fighting move that doesn't have a big drawback to it ((unlike Pheromosa, who's got HJK.))

Dunno jsut of the Ultra Beasts, I feel like Buzzwole is... kinda one of the weaker ones due to another mon having a very similar niche to his without an insanely paper thin SpDef. I guess it hinges on just how strong Lunge is, but due to it not really helping with Buzzwole issues ((bad SpDef and painfully average speed.)) I just don't think he's that strong.

Keep in mind, you ahve to actually get a kill for Beast Boost to go off. I think people are forgetting that yes, while Beast Boost is good it's not as crazy as first seems cause you need to pick it up and then survive your opponent attacking your possibly weakened mon. I don't think a lot of the slower UBs will get banned jsut since their speed is exploitable enough to deal with them much better.

[Sonikku]

Uhh, Kartana, Aegislash, and Pheromosa need to be gone. Eliminated from ou. Once that happens, we'll be able to see how the meta can actually turn out.

Really like the meta tbh, its really offensive.\

Also don't sleep on Magearna

[Deleted User]

Kartana's set is rather predictable and it gets walled by Skarmory/Lando-T

It's also usually running a choice item if it's seriously threatening. Kartana and Xuriktree are being overrated right now.

[Swampellow]

Shift gear Magearna puts in a ton of work, it's typing is good to take hits, and even if you don't invest in spatk it can still be really threatening. Max Spdef and HP with modest nature and shift gear threatens a lot of things with stab + a coverage move (I prefer energy ball/tbolt/ice coverage). It doesn't like Scizor but with enough boosts it can get through it. It's even possible to run mixed with shift gear because it can scare people with its special stab then pull out a physical attack off about 300 atl after one shift gear (uninvested)

[Raindrop Valkyrie]

Wait, people think Xuriktree is good? I mean it's SpAtk is insane but it's coverage is complete ass. It's gets Electric moves and a few grass ones, Dazzling Gleam and like Signal Beam. Not the greatest coverage tbh. Most of it's stats otherwise are also nothing to write home about. I guess it gets Tail Glow ((which is pretty freaking overkill tbh)) but it's bulk isn't really inspiring at 83/71/71 and it's speed is pretty awful too at 83. I imagine it nearly always runs Scarf to get around it's painfully average speed... but I'm not sure I really like the idea of locking into Electric types moves with things like Lando-T and I running around which I'm sure they are.

As solely Electric type, it's weak to Ground, and ye... only ground but Ground isn't exactly a great weakness to have, since... so many things run it as coverage. I was honestly thinking it'd be BL or lower jsut looking at it. Like just it doesn't look appealing at all.

On Kartana, Not as sure I can be as solid in that one seeing as I've yet to play yet I'm going more on the stuff I've seen thus far etc... But I think one point folks do need to realize while it's attack is insanity... it's got pretty low BP moves, with literally nothing over 90, and really jsut not a lot in general it cause use. Looks like the extent of the coverage it gets is Grass, Steel, and Fighting. Which ain't shabby but as Jeri said it's pretty predictable in that manner since it really doesn't seem like it has the movepool to draw from for really any decent surprises. It's got a real hefty Leaf Blade! Shame Grass is resisted by a buttload of types... dunno I'm skeptical on it myself as to jsut how good it is.

[Jmanultrax1]

celesteela is an amazing tank. Its typing allows it to resist a lot and avoid a few things. It can be given full defense on both stats and still provide some decent damage in physical or special. Giving it leftovers allows it to have some recover due to its recovery to live more. Or you can run assault vest and because it has access to leech seed, giga drain, ingrain. It weakness are the same as skarmory, but some are not really seen. It even has fire moves for some weird reason.

Celesteela is definitely good for ou. Shes not damage broken or defense broken, so she'll definitelybe seen a lot more in teams

[Wavesteel]

Let's see, Pheromosa, Aegislash and Genesect are probably going straight (back) to Ubers. For things that I like using:

Celesteela, a SpDef set with Leech Seed, Protect, Flamethrower and Heavy Slam is amazing at checking well a lot of things, it's like Skarmory but with better Spdef and less Def and no roost, but Leech Seed is pretty good. Flamethrower hits things like Ferro and Scizor while Heavy Slam destroys Fairies. [OU]

Alolan Marowak, this thing actually surprised me, but with Lightning Rod it checks all electrics so well because it resists all their coverage options, it can also check things like Scizor and Pheromosa and with an Adamant nature, 252 EV's and Thick Club it hits like a truck. Fire, Ghost, Ground is only resisted by Hydreigon so it is actually pretty hard to switch in to. [Won't be OU, but is definitely viable in OU]

Tapu Bulu, whether it is CB or LO SD, this thing hits like a truck and there are pretty much no entirely safe switchings aside from Defensive Skarmory (which still takes a ton from Banded Superpower), Grassy Terrain is also pretty nice for things like SubCM Raikou and ZardX, it takes away their EQ weakness and the recovery can help to set up on things. [OU for sure]

[NickCrash]

The paralysis nerf is really starting to show. Dragon Dancers won't need Substitute that much, and Shift Gear Magearna is certain to cause trouble.

[Wavesteel]

Oh yeah on the subject of setup mons, Shell Smash Minior and SD Mimikyu are both pretty good.

Minior in its first form has the bulk to take a hit and set up a shell smash, white herb can take away the debuffs and make acrobatics better. Acrobatics +EdgeQuake is great coverage. Sash is another option.

Mimikyu is basically guaranteed to get off a free SD because of its ability, Fairy/Ghost is a great offensive combination and it has Shadow Sneak too, a pretty good late game cleaner. Also Sash sounds pretty troll, to take a guaranteed two hits.

Overall this meta is very interesting, after the dust settles the meta will become more clear (and probably less offensive), but I'm having fun for now (even though I refuse to use Pheromosa, Aegislash and Genesect, which might be a slight handicap).

Edited November 20, 2016 by Wavesteel

[NickCrash]

Right now an intermediate tier between OU and Ubers or redefining Ubers as a whole needs to be made. The viable competitive stuff in one tier, and the OMGSOBROKENOPSHIT go to AG.

That said, I would love to use Minior and Mimikkyu in UU after all is said and done.

[Raindrop Valkyrie]

Think I'll just list out some interesting things that get some rather Key moves just for the shits and giggles.

Rapid Spin:

Alolan Sandslash, probably not the best user of it due to Ice/Steel being... a not great typing with 2 omni-common x4 weaknesses. However, I suppose it's work similar to a poor man's Excadrill in Hail. ((but I don't think Slush-Rush mons will really make Hail Vaible due it still being Ice Type only.)) maybe decent in lower tiers? Problem is Fighting Types were rampant everywhere last gen as there were strong ones nearly everywhere in every tier. Well... I guess it's got the saving grace of possibly being better than Avalugg... that's the saddest thing I've said in a long time...

Tsareena: Rather interesting learner of the move given it's pure grass typing and ability to just stop Priority straight in it's tracks. It's got a bit lower speed at 72 and a bit shaky of bulk at 72/98/98. Though Trop Kick allows it to somewhat cripple incoming Physical Attackers maybe buying it some space. I'm not entirely convinced in Tsareena's ability to RS just cause Grass isn't the best defensive mono-type for it and it's lacking reliable ways to defeat Spin Blockers. ((the only dark moves it gets are Fling and Payback.)) It does get access to U-Turn which is notable since it can Rapid Spin and keep momentum up.

Komala: Another thing that I'm rather unsure of it's ability to really properly do it. It has rather weird stats, and it's bulk is... super patchy, 65/65/95 is... pretty compromising on a mon this slow. It won't really get the opportunity to spin probably... ever. I'm not entirely sure how it's ability truly functions... but I dunno if it's really that much a boon on such. Normal is an okay typing as it makes it not accrue a lot of weaknesses, but... it also doesn't resist anything either just having an immunity to ghost. It gets Sucker Punch to combat Ghosts as well as Shadow Claw, so, it's at least got... something there. It also gets U-Turn access, however I can't really call it a good Slow-turner cause it is going to get bodied bu any physical hit aimed at it.

Dhelmise: Certainly... a strange learner of this move. It's at least got some bulk for it's slow speed. 70/100/90 is decent especially with Ghost/Grass being an okay def typing having an immunity to Fighting and Normal and resists to Ground,Grass, Electric, Water ((though having weaknesses to Ice, Dark, Ghost and Fire.)). Spin Blockers can't switch in on it's massive 136 Atk unless they really want to risk being shredded to pieces by Shadow Claw on the switch. Anchor Shot is an interesting util move, but I'm not really sure what you'd wanna trap in with a Dhelmise. It's got some potential, though the lack of recovery outside of Giga Drain is a bit saddening due to it's very lacklustre speed.

Pheromosa: Thiiiink this one explains itself tbh.

Defog:

Tapu Fini: Bulky as heck Water/Fairy with Defog? Uuuuuuh... yes PLEASE! Only having weaknesses to Electric, Grass and Poison while gaining resistances to Fire, Water, Dark, Ice, Fighting, Bug and an Immunity to Dragon... it's pretty safe to say that Water/Fairy is a stupidly good defensive typing. It's ability, Misty Surge also... straight up makes it immune to statuses of all kinds for 5 turns on entering the field so you can't be hit with toxic etc etc. I'm not even sure this is the best use of this mon, but it's definitely a decent one seeing as it's Immune to T-Spikes ((due to Misty Surge)), takes normal damage from SR. So it's not too shabby in those departments. However it only has unconventional healing in Aqua Ring so it can get worn down easily. ((and I think it's actually not possible to use Rest since it prevents you from being status'd... therefore, well... you can't go to sleep. Cause if it let you recover to full but then healed the sleep that'd be BUSTED.))

Kartana: Certainly might make a fine Offensive Fogger. Has, there ever been an offensive Fogger before? I can't actually think of one... well maybe Swanna but I mean higher than like PU. Whatever... point is Kartana could possibly make use o it, but I have a feeling it'd really miss out on not having a choice item. But it's offensive pressure is definitely enough to buy it a Defog. It's just paper thin, so if you fuck up goodbye Kartana. Might be good just on a surprise factor type of deal, but probably better stuff it could be doing.

Decidieye: Similar in ways to Dhelmise above just with Defog instead of Rapid Spin. It also has better Speed at the cost of a bit of Physical bulk and hitting power. However it can run mixed sets quite a bit easier. Roost is good for a flat 50% recovery, and you could use Synthesis if you expect to be in Sun a ton I suppose. Choices are good. Dunno, I think it got some potential seeing as it's not lying type which means it won't get chucked to hell by SR just coming out and it's capable of restoring it's HP allowing it to do it's job quite a lot without getting grounded down as much. It also has trapping utility with Spirit Shackles if wanted. Long Reach is also nice allowing it to attack around things like Rocky Helmet or not get King's Shield Drops when that's released. ((you might be able to sue it on Showdown anyway, but... no idea.))

Lurantis: Another one that's similar to one of the new Rapid Spinners (Tsareena). However, Lurantis's bad speed leaves a lot to be desired especially when the rest of it's stats are very average. Grass once more isn't the best Defensive typing on it's own as it has a lot of exploitable weaknesses.

Will continue at a later time cause I needa go lel.

[NickCrash]

Well, about offensive defoggers, Latios and Shiftry come to mind.

I doubt we'll see much of Fini as a defogger. Its true power stems from specs Moonblasts and switches for bulky mons like T-Tar to setup.

[Raindrop Valkyrie]

Definitely, I just thought it was an interesting thing it got for sure. ((I think I did mention probably won't be used for that bu it's an option. I think if it had better recovery options it'd be more viable in that role.))

Few More for funsies.

Stealth Rock:

Golem (Alolan): Well... it gets it? It's a mixed bag of awkward though. It can't really use decent Electric Moves without Galvanize, having to opt or Thunder Punch which is a little anemic, or Wild Charge which will ruin your Sturdy and and extremely wear you down due to Golem not having recovery. Sturdy is kinda mandatory for setting since you don't want to be destroyed by a stray x4 ground move. I suppose defensively it's a much better than Rock/Ground, but not insanely so. Is it better than regular Golem? Probably, but... let's be honest, that's not saying much is it? I think Alolan Golem might serve a better role than Setting unlike it's Rock/Ground cousin... but that's probably just cause it can actually do something possibly... other than SR set, which is the only niche Golem has in PU.

Lycanroc (Midday): Fast but not exactly bulky it could be an okay offensive setter. I think it's better served running a Sand Rush set though and letting something else do the rocking as it's more suited towards setting up an SD and then trying to run through things. It's coverage is a bit... on the weak side in that it needs to rely on a lot of weaker moves, so without set-up on an attack stat of 115... I just don't think it has the stopping power to be a Rock Setter.

Lycanroc (Midnight): Well, this thing is probably even worse off. It just really doesn't beat any of the competition cause it just doesn't bring anything worth while. It's minimally bulkier than it's Midday form ((85/75/75 as opposed to 75/65/65.)) but at the cost of 30 base speed. Not at all worth. Vital Spirit is kinda notable in that they can't put you to sleep but it's a rather small boon. Lycanroc I think struggles from not knowing what it wants to do or be as it's rather directionless and has mostly entirely average stats. Even it's hidden ability while first seeming okay is bad. It only makes Rock Moves not miss... but for the trad off of Focus Blast hitting you every time. Dunno... Lycanroc will struggle to be relevant I feel. It probably won't be PU levels of awful... but It's certainly not ever going to be higher than UU. ((and I think I'm being a bit overly generous.))

Minior: This little guy has way better things to be doing with his time so it's kinda a waste to use him as a rocker. Please don't.

Nihilego: An interesting one, though it is certainly not without issue. It pulls off being a bit offensive and at least bulky enough to not always be toppled ((though on 47 physical defense that impressive 109 base HP is a lot more narrow.)) It has quite the ability to get in and set up Rocks or Tspikes ((it's got the option.)) as it's speed tier is jsut enough for it to outspeed some stuff that it can exert pressure on. Mega Zards, the Tapus, and a lot of other Flying and Fairy types. Due to the two types prevalance, being able to threaten them is pretty strong and it's not like Nihilego's SpAtk is lacking at a nice base of 127. Not to mention the threat of Beast Boost going off alone makes it a HELL of a lot more risky for them to stay in. I honestly at first thought Nihil might be one o the weaker UBs. But, I think it's a lot better than I intially thought. It's still got issues don't get me wrong ((that 4x ground weakness gives it a lot of trouble.)), but it's not as bad as I thought it was when i first saw it.

Toxic Spikes:

Nihilego: See Stealth Rock section.

Toxipex: I have... no idea how to evaluate this mon. It reminds me a lot of something like Shuckle due to the fact that it's mostly defensive with not much ability to do anything offensively, but with a different twist. Toxipex if it has Merciless, automatically crits any attack against targets that are poisoned. That's kinda insane ((until you look at it's 60 and 50 base attacking stats lel.)) However, T Spikes would be awkward on this set as Toxipex has no real way to shuffle so it can't immediately benefit from it's spikes. it's defense is impeccable though a tad marred by it's low base hp (50/152/142). Honestly it's a rather gimmicky mon, having to rely on poisoning foes to have offensive presence or having little to none but being able to heal on switches. It's a pokemon that is definitely support orientated but... with some very strange options available to it. It's hard to say just what this thing is capable of and we're going to probably have to wait and see how this one pans out a bit more. I'm kinda at a loss for evaluating it because it's just so weird.

Spikes:

Golisopod: I'll be frank... I have no idea if this thing is even remotely good cause I have no idea how that ability works. In theory it's okay? Bug/Water ain't too shabby... it's got okay stats defensively to back it up, it got a decent physical attack stat. But.. how the heck does the ability trigger? and when more importantly? cuase like if it pops you out before your turn uuuuh... that's kinda an issue. Since you won't be able to set. Really... I don't think this thing is that capable f it. It gets Leech Life, but it really needs more longevity if it's ever going to set 3 layers and it jsut doesn't have that. On top o it's ability... things look bleak for that. It's much better suited to trying to hurt stuff than set hazards by far.)) it's a little sad this is the only new Spikes setter we're getting this gen.

Sticky Web: None, cause Gamefreak wants it to remain unviable garbage apparently.

Volt Switch:

Debates putting Charjabug due to possible potential of eviolite set due to it's defense being the same as Vikavolt's. But decides against for now mostly due to lack of decent recovery.

Vikavolt: Interesting in the area that this mon is slow and decently bulky enough it could possibly take a hit. I'd not really count on it that much for Voltturn cores/pivoting though. It'd do a shiiiiit load of damage off that 145 base SpAtk though so it's chip potential is unreal levels of damage. Though it gets Roost so maybe it could deal with the damage it'd take in chunks. Dunno. I feel like Vikavolt has not enough bulk to make it extremely good for how slow it is. If you wanna live the chip damage dream though ((without running say... Pheromosa.)), I guess he's your guy. It should be noted though it gets Levitate giving it free switches... that's something to be said for a slow pivoty type. ((once again though Ground moves typically come paired with Rock, which... will obliterate your soul.))

Tapu Koko: Not sure how much this little guy will run it but it could prove useful if he's got the slots. He's fast as hell, and Electric Terrain does boost it's power allowing you to get a nice hefty hit in despite your SpAtk being the lower o your two attack stats. It's probably a nice filler 4th slot move just for the respectable chip and the ability to keep up momentum ((and get out to a partner that might utilize the terrain better than Koko can.))

Xuritree: Kinda seems... not very productive on this guy. Beast Boost is a bit hard to utilize if you swtich out after all. Though it could be used for scouting or letting Xuri dent shit on it's way out. Really... Xuritree has the room for lacklustre moves as it's movepool is hellishly shallow.

Magearna: Once again, might be a bit of an odd move due to Soul Heart, but it's definitely got it uses. It can let you do chip on your way out of a bad math-up etc... I think special Magearna can afford switching out some seeing as 130 base SpAtk isn't even shabby so it's not like you're in dire need of the +1. Dunno it's got some util and it's probably worth considering at least. I doubt it's really got the room, but eh... who knows?

U-Turn:

Decidueye: Pretty solid choice on the guy tbh. Decidueye can definitely use the chip and the ability to get momentum decently well and has the advantage of Long Reach making it so his U-Turn won't trigger Iron Barbs or similar effects making it perfectly safe to use. Probably good on most sets as it's seems rather like something Decideye wants to be doing in most of his jobs.

Incineroar: Probably a decently solid choice, as it allows resetting your Intimidate. Well... once that's available. ((not sure how Showdown is handln' that at the moment.)) and it's nice momentum. Definitely an option. I thnk it's got much better moves though to aid it's wallbreakery seeming statline though. Maybe on a choice set though, you'd surely want it then. It's more set dependant.

Toucannon: I imagine you'll run this since Toucannon will probably run Scarf to patch up it's speed.

Gumshoos: Pssssssssh... I dunno how viable running this on this mon is... It's not really tanky enough to be a pivot and it's speed is awful so Scarfing it seems bad. Pretty sure it's jsut better off attacking things... but eh... I guess if they switch out and then you get the Stakeout boost you destroy them with super duper chip while running away but... I dunno.

Oricorio: Probably not entirely worth running just for the util as it's not going to hit for much unless you like... steal a Swords Dance but you can't really count on that. It's probably better sticking to it's special side. Though I'm not sure of it's support move options maybe it can run a decent supporty set.

Ribombee: I'd say no. You want to QD up boosts so U-Turn is pretty counter-intuitive.

Wishiwashi: it gets it... no idea how to evaluate this mon... it's ability is jsut a mite too silly for me to do so without testing this thing.

Comfey: Seeing as it's got a lot of support moves probably decent to allow it in and out. It's not really going to hit for much though.

Passimian: It's definitely got a place here, jsut Passimian is a Pokemon that really doesn't hit it's potinal in singles. I think it'll be decent due to a good statline but using it in Singles just seems wrong XD>))

Sivlally: It's probably good. NEXT!!!

Minior: Due to it's want to set up Shell Smash with White Herb... well... definitely not worth using. If you used a non-step up one for... some reason you'd probably use it though. But as it stands... probably don't.

Komola: pretty much covered in my Rpaid Spin section a post or two back.

Togedemaru: Definitely a decent user of it as it has a-oaky physical attack and alrightish speed. Really not a whole lot to say here, it's good, you use it.

Tapu Koko: depends... I'd have to calc stuff to see if VS > U-Turn. I don't really feel like it. You'd probably use one of them... XD.

Pheromosa: Once again... probably no need to explain here. 137 attack STAB chip? You'll use it.

[Jmanultrax1]

beware is a very good tank. it has access to pain split. By giving it high def and an assult vest and can deal good damage and survive hits and recover with pain split as its recovery. I just wish it was a little faster.

[NickCrash]

beware is a very good tank. it has access to pain split. By giving it high def and an assult vest and can deal good damage and survive hits and recover with pain split as its recovery. I just wish it was a little faster.

Assault Vest prohibits the use of Pain Split. Perhaps if it gets Drain Punch in the future.

[Raindrop Valkyrie]

Ye, Drain Punch would be a BIG boon for it since it's sorta in need of that recovery. I can see it getting it, but Gamefreak might jsut be like "Na."

Also did a few more lists above. Mostly just cause I felt like it. ((also keep in mind I've yet to play much hence why my thoughts are rather all over the place XD. Haven't had the time to slap a team together.))

[Jmanultrax1]

does assault vest prohibit rest? because that's what I have on my tortunator.

[Raindrop Valkyrie]

Yes, it prohibits all status moves. You can only use attacks. If it's classified as status, it's unusable.

Think of it this way, Assault Vest permanently inflicts Taunt on the user. It cannot use any move that Taunt would not allow it too.