Are Dragon types bad game design?

[Chevaleresse]

Now, don't get me wrong, I love Dragon-types. Right now I'm trying to build a team full of them in Platinum and SoulSilver. But, I can't help but think that they don't have the greatest design gameplay-wise. Basically, you have a type with a fair number of resistances, most of which are fairly common, and its only weaknesses are itself and a fairly rare type. Then, you give the type AMAZING moves, which are only resisted by one or two types. After that, you give basically every member of the type dual typing and movepools that easily cover its weakness to Ice. This results in the introduction of a type made specifically to counter it.

[Shanco]

God help you if Owen ever sees this thread.

[Amethyst]

Two types have been introduced for them now actually! Though steel doubled for the psychic problem in Gen 1 (then again there was mainly dark for that)

It's not that it was bad design; it was bad execution. Pokemon wasn't expected to go beyond RBY so they wanted to make this special uber type for the champion to surprise people with. They weren't looking at a balance aspect- just a single player experience. In that sense, it was pretty effective.

The poor execution comes in going forward- admittedly, they tried with introducing Steel; it just wasn't enough.

[Ikaru]

Up until recently I'm pretty sure the game wasn't balanced around the competitive aspect anyway.

Same thing happened to Psychic in Gen I and two types were introduced to deal with them.

I wouldn't call it bad design, especially since Ice is typically used as an offensive type wherever possible so it's not too rare. And Dragon as a monotype team is surprisingly weak, actually.

[Sapphire]

Their STAB is only SE on themselves though, so it's bad offensively, and they tend to have crippling x4 weaknesses. To list:

Dragonite: x4 to Ice.

Kingdra: x4 to Freeze Dry, and is generally poor outside of rain [and rain teams are pretty poor now].

Flygon: x4 to Ice.

Altaria: x4 to Ice.

Salamence: x4 to Ice.

Garchomp: x4 to Ice.

Hydreigon: x4 to Fairy.

Mono Dragon is easily one of the worst monotype teams you can have.

[Noivy]

This is merely going to be a place holder so that i can prove just how bloody wrong you are. I don't battle often, but I have a very bad habit of "finding something that 'doesn't work', and making it work".

[SJMistery]

Their STAB is only SE on themselves though, so it's bad offensively, and they tend to have crippling x4 weaknesses. To list:

Dragonite: x4 to Ice. multiscale avoids that issue. the point while battling that beast is: loose skarm and you will die. I even have it as a staple on my uber team with impressive results

Kingdra: x4 to Freeze Dry, and is generally poor outside of rain [and rain teams are pretty poor now]. a shame the pokemon who have Freeze Dry are either sucky or weak to water. he can also put his own rain, is enough bulky

Flygon: x4 to Ice. worse than the rest, tough it can still give you a nce headache via nearly immunity to hazards+decent movepool

Altaria: x4 to Ice. this one generally sucks, tough is the only who learns a sleep inducing move

Salamence: x4 to Ice. ice shard is the only ice move that will threaten it, and mamo is weak to water and steel moves, who sally tends to carry

Garchomp: x4 to Ice. same as salamence, but immune to prankster thunder wave and resists SR, but weak to sticky web

Hydreigon: x4 to Fairy. that thing has no counters for its sheer power, nice coverage and decent speed; i need say more?

the lati twins are out of question, if you loose ferrothorn, gg

Mono Dragon is easily one of the worst monotype teams you can have.

You're not serious are you?

My monotype dragon of BW actually beats many OU and Uber teams

Edited November 27, 2013 by SJMistery

[Sapphire]

Really? I never lost against a mono-dragon team, even with something poor like fire.

Also, I'd say your comments on the dragons are pretty lacking. Hydreigon has Sylveon and that new flower thing as counters. Even in 5th gen, it was rarely used. I'm not even going to bother with commenting on your other comments [Multiscale dragonite gets ohkod by life orb greninja etc.]

[grasssnake485]

Hmm, swept through the fairy gym with a sligoo. Definitely not too weak.

My last team was serperior, reshriram, kingdra, Dialga, dragonite, hydreigon. It covers each other.

On the other hand, MANY dragons fear Ice and Fairy. vv

Their STAB is only SE on themselves though, so it's bad offensively, and they tend to have crippling x4 weaknesses. To list:

Dragonite: x4 to Ice.

Kingdra: x4 to Freeze Dry, and is generally poor outside of rain [and rain teams are pretty poor now].

Flygon: x4 to Ice.

Altaria: x4 to Ice.

Salamence: x4 to Ice.

Garchomp: x4 to Ice.

Hydreigon: x4 to Fairy.

Mono Dragon is easily one of the worst monotype teams you can have.

Edited December 8, 2013 by grasssnake485

[Absol-lutelty awesome!]

I don't care about the weakness if dragons, that's why I man up and teach them stone edge and ev train them in some speed so they go first. As for fairies........ EAT MY FLASH CANNON!

[Sapphire]

What about things like Glaceon? Back in gen 4, Glaceon was the only check to Yache Garchomp, as it could take a Stone Edge and then OHKO with Ice Beam [even with Yache]. And in 6th gen, Avalugg has such high defense and hp, it can tank anything physical [i mean, taking 45% from a +2 fire punch from Dragonite]. Stone Edge won't help you there.

[Raindrop Valkyrie]

Avalugg tends to be rare, but I think he could be a decent tank even though he has little resists. I mean he has Recover, so he has recovery that doesn't put him to sleep. Dragons I think need proper back-up, they are not intrinsically terrible as they have really high base stats, but there are things they just can't deal with, to me that is more a good design decision then anything else.

[Sapphire]

*Nods*. Avalugg DOES tend to be rare, but I've come unstuck against it more times than I care to remember [having HJK from mega Blaziken not even triggering sturdy is not fun]. One of the reasons I put more special in my team was because an Avalugg swept 4 of my team [after my specials were dead], as I couldn't deal enough damage to it to out-damage recover.

I think it's one of those Mons [like Articuno in 6th] that while it won't ever be OU, it's worth remembering that it DOES get used, however rarely.

[Summer]

What about things like Glaceon? Back in gen 4, Glaceon was the only check to Yache Garchomp, as it could take a Stone Edge and then OHKO with Ice Beam [even with Yache]. And in 6th gen, Avalugg has such high defense and hp, it can tank anything physical [i mean, taking 45% from a +2 fire punch from Dragonite]. Stone Edge won't help you there.

lol wtf u smokin, m8.

>implying garchomp runs stone miss over fire blast for extremely decent coverage and accuracy

Also all that you've said till now are only dragons aren't good competitively, and their inability to deal with Ice, and how UU mons can deal with them and whatnot. You're not correct, you know. Dragons are OU for a reason: their incredible movepools and their stats. You claim Glaceon could handle Garchomp before, why wouldn't a standard Garchomp expect Defensively Ice types and use Fire Blast? You can argue, >m-muh faires and their s-stab moonblast and bulk

NO. Iron Head and Flash Cannon is a thing now. Even if it doesn't KO your Fairy eevee thingy, it'll still do about 60% forcing you to switch out or let it die the next turn. You can bring all your UU mons into OU, and dragons won't be the only thing there. Usually a steel type like Scizor deals with what the dragons can't and the dragons finishes off the game. Dragons don't need to be SE to anything, it just need to be really hard at hitting, which most of them are! (Save altatria- the thing hopeless).

Therefore all that you've mention obviously didn't go through your mind before you typed.

[Sapphire]

A Garchomp wouldn't expect defensive Ice types because in gen 4 there were none. Also you've completely misunderstood my posts. I wasn't saying that they're underpowered etc, just that they aren't bad game design.

[Summer]

A Garchomp wouldn't expect defensive Ice types because in gen 4 there were none. Also you've completely misunderstood my posts. I wasn't saying that they're underpowered etc, just that they aren't bad game design.

>mamoswine

>frolass

>walrein

Ok so I may have misunderstood your words or sonething. Sorry then.