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SUGGESTION: IV AND EV options


lenny123
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Hi!

 

I want to make a suggestion on the way to train or up IV/EV in reju V13.

I think one of the main features of pokemon Rejuvenation is that we use weaker and lower tier pokemons in the start, and unlock higher tier pokemons as we progress in the game. This allows for the experience of putting together teams to beat the game and make the best of what we have.

However, some pokemons are useless without propper EV/IV spreads. For example, a Weezing can be a decend wall in early game, but not when the EV is put onto attack/speed. To use Weezing (and pokemons alike), EV training methods are required. Currently the EV cards are obtainable only later in the game, and the gained EV's have to be reset first, in order to re-train, which requires unlock of certain berries (also later in game). It would be (in my opinion) more fun to be able to train EV from the get-go, allowing a lager variaty of team options. Also, the EV training method should be in more pokemon-centers, because east-gearen city is not always reachable during certain phases. Catching new mons while "away" makes it that they arn't able to be trained properly. 

 

For IV's, I think it would be awesome to be able to up these somehow (maybe with a key-item). This could be sold at the AP store or something alike. To be able to max out the IV's add's for a nice gameplay-goal.

 

What do you think?

 

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Well you can get EV cards from the very beginning loL. You just need the AP points ( which are possible to grind out. )

Also IV upping does exist for a price :)

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2 hours ago, lenny123 said:

Currently the EV cards are obtainable only later in the game,

This was a problem for a lot me included but thankfully it got changed in and updated version fast. Now it is possible to unluck them from the start again with the right AP points. If you cant better check your version if it is the newest one cause a lot of bugs got fixed as well. Still a nice post and the only diffrence is that the Speed & HP rooms arn't available for free from the start compared to the past if I am not wrong.

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4 hours ago, Cerise said:

Well you can get EV cards from the very beginning loL. You just need the AP points ( which are possible to grind out. )

Also IV upping does exist for a price :)

Oh, I thouht in V13 that the EV cards were handed out later in the game. But thats good, we can just grind (or cheat) the AP points at the start and then its all good :). Still I think it would be better if the rooms were free. When do we get the "IV ups"? 

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1 hour ago, lenny123 said:

Oh, I thouht in V13 that the EV cards were handed out later in the game. But thats good, we can just grind (or cheat) the AP points at the start and then its all good :). Still I think it would be better if the rooms were free. When do we get the "IV ups"? 

In GDC after badge 13 iirc, there's a nurse you can find only during night time who will change IV's for 10k x stat

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I feel like there are too many hoops to jump through for what is an essential aspect to combat engagement in this game. First and foremost, you shouldn't need to have to AP grind right from the start just to even have access to an actual EV training facility, and one of the core issues with EV training just on a conceptual level is it's just about grinding it out. There's no real challenge or test of your skill as a trainer. The real test comes from your knowledge and adaptability. Creating grindfest hoops for players to jump through is basically archaic in today's era of game design, and I think it would behoove both Rejuvenation and Reborn to adopt more modernized and manageable methods of EV training.

 

For IVs, I don't even know why this is a value that still exists quite honestly. There are two incredibly niche situations in which having max IVs is not ideal: Special Attackers (who minimize confusion damage and Foul Play by having 0 attack IVs), and Trick Room teams (where having 0 speed IVs for some pokemon give them the ability to outspeed a handful of specific Pokemon under trick room). Beyond that, IVs are just an ancient form of stat customization that has aged very poorly.

 

Natures are also pretty terrible design-wise. Only a handful of them even matter, and the rest actively handicapping the Pokemon that have them. Neurtal natures serve literally no purpose in any context, and while there is at least a decent amount that are useful to some Pokemon, any given Pokemon only really wants 1 or 2.

 

At lot of these are just consequences of the official games' inability to grow and change with the development of the game industry. On a conceptual level, the idea of these factors can be at least an interesting thing, if not a good thing, but they're hilariously outdated in today's RPG design. It's significantly easier said than done, but I think since both Reborn and Rejuvenation are designed specifically to test your knowledge of Pokemon combat more than your ability to grind through the content like the main games, retaining these various hurtles just bogs the games down rather than props them up. Updating these with efficient ways of customizing your Pokemon with reasonable limitations so that you can't just get an all-new team every 5 minutes would do both games a lot of good.

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A reasonable limitation is the need of having ap to unlock the ev training rooms and the IV changer coming late game. There are many ways to beat the game, even without having perfect IVs or EVs, and that's part of the challenge. I don't really get this fuss about tediousness, I find the actual system works pretty well, even more if compared to classical games. If you don't want to waste time with it you should just use debug mode and create the Pokémons you prefer.

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I am thankful for the EV training system which you dont have in Reborn. (I had to find out my own places and it takes way longer still) I was only against having it unlocked so late but now that this have changed back it is good and balanced in my opinion. You can unlock the AP for them like a few said before relatively easy. With free from the start it would be out of control in my opinion and like Blontary said use debug if you dont want to train them (every can play their own way but for me it took away a little of the game and felt strange for me). If I am not wrong you can get the beeries a little earlier than before and the IV is a great way but really strong and ok in my opinion that it is that late.

For me the charm of Reborn & Rejuvenation is that they are way harder than the classic games which is the reason I play them.

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the difficulty is the charm, most definitely. That said, I strongly feel that grind is NOT difficulty--it's monotony, and in fact takes away from the difficulty because you need to take a break from the game to sink a chunk of your personal time in order to bring your party up to a similar playing field to the opponent. And what's important about that exchange is that time's an important resource that extends beyond the game. This is something that the game industry as a whole has become more cognizant of over the last 8ish years.

 

The official games get away with these ancient forms of min-maxing a) because it's Pokemon and it will make money no matter what and b) because the playthrough of the game is so painfully easy that these min-max training methods don't actually matter.

 

I just use debug to get around the time sinks because I just don't have time in my life to spend 45 minutes EV training a single Pokemon, but I don't think that should be the answer. Sure, it's not hard to grind out the AP early on for the cards, that takes away from your ability to use that AP for other items like the golden items that allow us to bypass the equally ancient HM situation--something the official games have already done away with--or nature mints which were a massive step forward for the also outdated nature system. The fact that EV training already requires a significant amount of time per Pokemon to invest is already an unnecessarily slow hoop to jump through. Needing to grind AP just to have that opportunity is just more excess on top of excess.

 

What I just want, and this is from the Pokemon games in general, is to streamline the training process to feel more like a worthwhile effort on the player's part that feels like natural progression--something that takes away the grind but retains some representation of your time spent training that Pokemon rather than just the "I snap my fingers and it's done" nature of using Debug. Here's my suggestion:

 

EV Training; Defeating a Pokemon Trainer now awards every Pokemon in your party with EVs in each stat (5 for ordinary trainers, 10 for rivals and bosses, 15 for gym leaders and breeders later in the game). When a Pokemon has capped its EVs, you can respec that Pokemon's EVs at the Pokemon Center for a reasonable fee (2000 Pokedollars to respec all EVs or so)

 

IVs: All Pokemon always have 31 IVs in every stat. You can respec IVs for free at the same place as EVs if you want a 0 IV stat. Honestly, IVs don't need to exist anymore. They don't offer any real level of customization or focus.

 

Hidden Power: Separate Hidden Power type from IVs and just make that a separate value. I'd also love to see a physical Hidden Power and make changing your Pokemon's hidden power type something that actually does warrant a more valuable resource like AP or Heart Scales

 

Natures: Change mints from being purchased with AP at the Casino to something you can buy at any mart for a reasonable fee. Again it's another example of something where it's a test of your knowledge of the Pokemon, not your ability to grind out the resources.

 

Move Relearing: Honestly, I would kill to have Pokemon remember all moves they learn either via levelup or through TM/Tutor and you just go to the menu to set which 4 moves they'll currently use. It's so archaic to have to go to an NPC just to use a different moveset. Not to mention it would be fantastic to save different set, like a doubles set. It's so hard to justify holding onto a move like Follow Me in a game where you're constantly going to go through singles battles as well. Granted, this could be incredibly complext to toss into Pokemon Essentials. I'd say just make the move relearner free, make them present in all cities, and make the special move relearner who uses Heart Scales teach you egg moves. It's still painfully clunky, but it's probably unreasonable to expect an all-new UI system for storing and setting up movesets on the fly.

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8 hours ago, ty_taurus said:

the difficulty is the charm, most definitely. That said, I strongly feel that grind is NOT difficulty--it's monotony, and in fact takes away from the difficulty because you need to take a break from the game to sink a chunk of your personal time in order to bring your party up to a similar playing field to the opponent. And what's important about that exchange is that time's an important resource that extends beyond the game. This is something that the game industry as a whole has become more cognizant of over the last 8ish years.

 

The official games get away with these ancient forms of min-maxing a) because it's Pokemon and it will make money no matter what and b) because the playthrough of the game is so painfully easy that these min-max training methods don't actually matter.

 

I just use debug to get around the time sinks because I just don't have time in my life to spend 45 minutes EV training a single Pokemon, but I don't think that should be the answer. Sure, it's not hard to grind out the AP early on for the cards, that takes away from your ability to use that AP for other items like the golden items that allow us to bypass the equally ancient HM situation--something the official games have already done away with--or nature mints which were a massive step forward for the also outdated nature system. The fact that EV training already requires a significant amount of time per Pokemon to invest is already an unnecessarily slow hoop to jump through. Needing to grind AP just to have that opportunity is just more excess on top of excess.

 

What I just want, and this is from the Pokemon games in general, is to streamline the training process to feel more like a worthwhile effort on the player's part that feels like natural progression--something that takes away the grind but retains some representation of your time spent training that Pokemon rather than just the "I snap my fingers and it's done" nature of using Debug. Here's my suggestion:

 

EV Training; Defeating a Pokemon Trainer now awards every Pokemon in your party with EVs in each stat (5 for ordinary trainers, 10 for rivals and bosses, 15 for gym leaders and breeders later in the game). When a Pokemon has capped its EVs, you can respec that Pokemon's EVs at the Pokemon Center for a reasonable fee (2000 Pokedollars to respec all EVs or so)

 

IVs: All Pokemon always have 31 IVs in every stat. You can respec IVs for free at the same place as EVs if you want a 0 IV stat. Honestly, IVs don't need to exist anymore. They don't offer any real level of customization or focus.

 

Hidden Power: Separate Hidden Power type from IVs and just make that a separate value. I'd also love to see a physical Hidden Power and make changing your Pokemon's hidden power type something that actually does warrant a more valuable resource like AP or Heart Scales

 

Natures: Change mints from being purchased with AP at the Casino to something you can buy at any mart for a reasonable fee. Again it's another example of something where it's a test of your knowledge of the Pokemon, not your ability to grind out the resources.

 

Move Relearing: Honestly, I would kill to have Pokemon remember all moves they learn either via levelup or through TM/Tutor and you just go to the menu to set which 4 moves they'll currently use. It's so archaic to have to go to an NPC just to use a different moveset. Not to mention it would be fantastic to save different set, like a doubles set. It's so hard to justify holding onto a move like Follow Me in a game where you're constantly going to go through singles battles as well. Granted, this could be incredibly complext to toss into Pokemon Essentials. I'd say just make the move relearner free, make them present in all cities, and make the special move relearner who uses Heart Scales teach you egg moves. It's still painfully clunky, but it's probably unreasonable to expect an all-new UI system for storing and setting up movesets on the fly.

While I agree with you about IV's I do think Rejuvenation has got the best EV training system. They give EV training from the very beginning and it takes less than 2 minutes to fully EV train a single mon if you have access to rooms. Early game you really dont need to EV train at all. Using weaker fully evolved Pokemon is kinda enough till 4th gym imo. From 5th gym onwards EV training seems more important as I feel gym leaders start using Pokemon with higher stats from here on. By this point you will have AP to spare even if you didnt grind for it. Most HM items are not that necessary as those HM are avaialble late game(fly, waterfall, strength, dive) or are only used once or twice to really explore properly(cut, magma drift). Not to mention you can forget those HM moves without going to move deleter. 

 

Not to mention if EV training is available from the very start without any sort of grinding then the early game needs to be balanced around for fully EV trained mons. Which would push back casual fans away from playing the game.

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EV training is a thing from the start of the game now, you just need 60 AP, which you can grind for, you can also just use wild mons, which would be very time consuming, but doable. Similarly, breeding can be done with any Pokémon after the 8th gym (Ditto and Destiny knot are both available). So you can get perfect IV/EV's it just takes varying degrees of work. 


EDIT: Also, if you want to breed max IVs into your Pokemon in a "less" time consuming method, you can use the gift Sylveon, since it has perfect IVs and a very accessible egg group in the field egg group, so you can breed max IVs into any mon with it and a destiny knot. Note that using this method, you may have to breed max IVs into a pokemon in a diffrent egg group as a bridge. For example, if you wanted to breed a max IV gible that is in the dragon egg group, you would need to do something like this: breed Male Sylveon (or breed an Eevee that is male with max IV) and a female spheal (water/field egg group), then breed the male max Spheal with a Horsea (water/dragon egg group), the breed the male max IV horsea with a female gible, and bam you have a max IV Gible. With this method, you won't need to make a max IV mon from scratch (since the dittp from the other method, is very unlikely to be maxed out), still will take forever. Natrually, you will need to have the destiny knot equipped for this...

 

Another alternative is to use the lady who maxs out your IVs, and have her Max a ditto. It is pricey but then you can do the breeding with the maxed out ditto plus destiny knot to easily get maxed out mons. 

 

Personally, I just use debug to skip the hassle/super long grind (but I only do it once I have the tools to do it legitimately, the EV cards, for EVs and Ditto/Destiny Knot for IVs). 

Edited by pizzagod13
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