Pixies Types Hurt & Heal

[Ojama Yellow 759]

4 minutes ago, Wolfox said:

I personally don't dislike Mew. But I do kinda dislike how people use it. Before it got a Z-move, it was generally a will-o defensive stally set... And then there's me, thinking that of literally everything you can do, you choose that...

not gonna lie, the will-o-wisp mew set was definitely my favorite. though I used to run something really weird. iirc it was wisp, taunt, rocks and roost. it was a fun one, albeit reliant on your opponent not knowing what tf that mew is running.

[Wolfox 2093]

Someone once tried telling me that that wasn't a stall based set.

If your main way of removing your opponents HP is through something like will-o or Toxic and you generally click a move like recover, it's a stall based set.

[Jess 574]

@Dorcas

Yep, Z-Happy Hour looks balanced. Sweeps almost anything. What it can't OHKO, it just flinches it to death with Iron Head/Zen Headbutt. And recovers HP with Drain Punch too.

@Wolfox

Personally, I like Baton Passing Mew. But Baton Pass was apparently OP (ahahahaha), so they got it banned... Cause it's hard to carry, you know, Taunt, Haze or something like that...

[Zargerth 254]

Mew: 12
Jirachi: 3
Manaphy: 10
Victini: 5

[Ojama Yellow 759]

1 hour ago, Jess said:

 

Personally, I like Baton Passing Mew. But Baton Pass was apparently OP (ahahahaha), so they got it banned... Cause it's hard to carry, you know, Taunt, Haze or something like that...

if I recall correctly, a big reason why baton pass got banned was that baton pass chain teams existed. you couldnt whirlwind, roar, toxic or taunt them, because they would just baton pass into espeon, who bounced back whatever you tried to give them. haze is an extremely situational move that usually requires giving up a moveslot for something more suited to the mons role. unless your name is fucking toxapex in which case please get out of my life.

[Gengar768 43]

@Dorcas*Cough* Clefable *Cough*

[Jess 574]

25 minutes ago, Dorcas said:

if I recall correctly, a big reason why baton pass got banned was that baton pass chain teams existed. you couldnt whirlwind, roar, toxic or taunt them, because they would just baton pass into espeon, who bounced back whatever you tried to give them. haze is an extremely situational move that usually requires giving up a moveslot for something more suited to the mons role. unless your name is fucking toxapex in which case please get out of my life.

You can do so many things to stop a Baton Pass chain team. I don't know why you can't Roar or Taunt them by the way. Taunt isn't a negative priority move. Also, why not ban the combination of Magic Bounce with Baton Pass if that's the issue? Why ban an entire strategy, instead of the one tiny thing that made it "tough to handle"?

[Ojama Yellow 759]

1 minute ago, Jess said:

You can do so many things to stop a Baton Pass chain team. I don't know why you can't Roar or Taunt them by the way. Taunt isn't a negative priority move. Also, why not ban the combination of Magic Bounce with Baton Pass if that's the issue? Why ban an entire strategy, instead of the one tiny thing that made it "tough to handle"?

I wasnt entirely wrong, but apparently theres a whole backstory to the baton pass and smogon tale that goes way past chainpassing. which can be read here. theres a whole lot of discussion that went on that barely even looked at chainpassing, but as you can see disagreements still happened.

 

roar was impossible because espeons magic bounce...well, bounced that back. a fast taunter would be able to shut the strategy down early on, provided they didnt baton pass to espeon before or something. outspeeding was definitely hard because the most important stat to pass is usually speed. prankster taunters like sableye, klefki and whimsicott are pretty much the only viable taunters to shut the strategy down, and even of that list only sableye would be able to hit espeon hard.

[Jess 574]

7 minutes ago, Dorcas said:

I wasnt entirely wrong, but apparently theres a whole backstory to the baton pass and smogon tale that goes way past chainpassing. which can be read here. theres a whole lot of discussion that went on that barely even looked at chainpassing, but as you can see disagreements still happened.

 

roar was impossible because espeons magic bounce...well, bounced that back. a fast taunter would be able to shut the strategy down early on, provided they didnt baton pass to espeon before or something. outspeeding was definitely hard because the most important stat to pass is usually speed. prankster taunters like sableye, klefki and whimsicott are pretty much the only viable taunters to shut the strategy down, and even of that list only sableye would be able to hit espeon hard.

You still didn't answer why they couldn't just ban Espeon and (in general) Magic Bounce mons' combined use with Baton Pass instead of banning the entire strategy. They could ban Speed boost passing and Bagic Bounce, if that made the thing broken. But no, they had to ban the entire strategy, like crybabies. Plus, that discussion is TL;DR and I suspect it will be too salty for my taste too...

Anyways, since they banned evasiveness/accuracy and confusion already, I don't think it would be hard for them to consider illegal the common use of Speed Boost/Quiver Dance/Agility/Magic Bounce with Baton Pass.

[CrimsonDragon21 88]

Hurt Mew. Heal Jirachi.

 

Mew: 12

Jirachi: 4

Manaphy: 9

Victini: 5

 

[Ojama Yellow 759]

7 minutes ago, Jess said:

You still didn't answer why they couldn't just ban Espeon and (in general) Magic Bounce mons' combined use with Baton Pass instead of banning the entire strategy. They could ban Speed boost passing and Bagic Bounce, if that made the thing broken. But no, they had to ban the entire strategy, like crybabies. Plus, that discussion is TL;DR and I suspect it will be too salty for my taste too...

Anyways, since they banned evasiveness/accuracy and confusion already, I don't think it would be hard for them to consider illegal the common use of Speed Boost/Quiver Dance/Agility/Magic Bounce with Baton Pass.

to my surprise, there is very little salt going on in that thread, barring a guy calling someone else lowkey dumb for proposing to delete the baton pass clause overall, and allow unlimited baton pass. anyway, the main thing of that thread is the following.

 

"The OU Council believes that Baton Pass, as a move, should be banned from the SM OU metagame. Despite having a clause implemented to hinder Baton Pass teams, there are clearly still effective teams that make use of this strategy. Baton Pass teams are one of the most controversial parts of the metagame currently and this is in large part due to the strategy behind them, passing stat boosts to threatening Pokemon that can take advantage of them without many drawbacks. Common abusers of this strategy, such as Necrozma, Magearna, and Espeon, take advantage of being passed Speed boosts from Scolipede and then set up on their own, proceeding to sweep through a significant portion of the metagame and teams that are used. Therefore, the OU council believes that these teams have no place in the SM OU metagame and we must do something to change this."
 

the reason they didnt ban espeon + magic bounce is apparently partly because it wasnt the main problem at the moment, and partly because smogon has attempted complex bans for baton pass before and the move still managed to be broken. the first clause reportedly was to limit three baton passers on each team, which didnt go too well. after that, it was limited to only one baton passer a team, but apparently iron defense scolipede and geomancy smeargle still kicked asses during that era. the next ban was 'limit to one baton passer a team and disallow baton passing speed alongside other boosts'. from what ive read, some pokemon in the sm ou metagame (especially necrozma and magearna) were able to take those speed passes, and wreck the majority of the metagame without too much trouble. so passing speed + other stats with baton pass had already been considered and banned- but apparently that wasnt enough.

 

the next possibility would be to just ban baton pass in combination with any speed raising move, or just disallow baton pass to pass on boosts overall. the reason the council voted to ban baton pass rather than allow either one of these was that the clause would get overly complicated. the first mentioned possibility, namely baton pass + stats other than speed, would end up in a banlist so overly complicated that they felt it was a better idea to just outright ban the move, rather than compile a list of 50+ moves, abilities...etc. that baton pass couldnt be used with. the latter...the comparison to speed boost + blaziken and double team vs bright powder got brought up. overall it was decided that barely anything would be hurt from the loss of drypassing, and that it wasnt worth implementing a clause for. especially because the clause would be, once again, extremely convoluted.

 

keep in mind that the majority of this information isnt me speaking- rather its shortened version of the thoughts of the council while discussing the baton pass ban. I am in no way knowledgeable enough to come up with all this myself (especially considering ive barely done any competitive in gen VII).

 

also, im pretty confusion hasnt been banned outright- the one getting the boot was swagger due to the move being extremely uncompetitive.

 

either way, should you feel like continuing this discussion, my pm box is open. I feel like this thread has been the plaything of this baton pass discussion for long enough now.

[Jess 574]

3 minutes ago, Dorcas said:

the next possibility would be to just ban baton pass in combination with any speed raising move, or just disallow baton pass to pass on boosts overall. the reason the council voted to ban baton pass rather than allow either one of these was that the clause would get overly complicated.

This, in my -well-trained in hearing and translating excuses- ear, sounds like "we can't be assed to write a proper clause, so fuck this shit, ban it altogether and let's hit the pub".

 

6 minutes ago, Dorcas said:

overall it was decided that barely anything would be hurt from the loss of drypassing, and that it wasnt worth implementing a clause for. especially because the clause would be, once again, extremely convoluted.

"Why are we still discussing this? I need burger and a beer, just ban it all!!!"

 

7 minutes ago, Dorcas said:

either way, should you feel like continuing this discussion, my pm box is open. I feel like this thread has been the plaything of this baton pass discussion for long enough now.

True, let's get back to crowning Mew the best pixie.

[NickCrash 250]

37 minutes ago, Jess said:

This, in my -well-trained in hearing and translating excuses- ear, sounds like "we can't be assed to write a proper clause, so fuck this shit, ban it altogether and let's hit the pub".

That's essentially it. Remember the council includes young people with short attention spans who saw no problems promoting their own gaming agenda against balanced play. 

 

Mew: 10

Jirachi: 5

Manaphy: 9

Victini: 5

[Wolfox 2093]

2 minutes ago, NickCrash said:

That's essentially it. Remember the council includes young people with short attention spans who saw no problems promoting their own gaming agenda against balanced play.

1

Let's also remember that they allowed another council of another meta to be biased to a certain thing and not care about balance as much there (gen 6 psychic. the mono council mained it and tried keeping it on top. This got noticed and they said they wouldn't do it in gen 7 anymore). So yeah, when that happened expect some other meta's to also have a bit of a "corrupt" council if you wanna call it that

[NickCrash 250]

That's what I was hinting at.

[Wolfox 2093]

ah, right

[Jess 574]

We talking about the infamous Hoopa-Unbound incident? I still don't have the details about what happened there...

@Wolfox

@NickCrash

 

 

[Wolfox 2093]

@Jess They once banned Mega Gallade because that with Knock Off was scary for psychic. I think I've said enough

[NickCrash 250]

I'm sure you have heard the general stuff about it. Long story short, it was already suspected in OU, because it kept destabilizing the game, and they never mentioned the monotype scene because they were all using it in their mono-psychic teams. Usually, when something is too strong for OU, to allow a suspect test, it gets quick-banned from monotype. They kept claiming that while it was a bit overcentralizing in OU, it was fine in monotype because the pokemon it could team up with were not possible there. 

 

People started complaining and the number of players dropped drastically. The rest started using Dark, Ghost and Bug monotypes specifically to counter psychic which got OP so fast. However, they didn't stop from this. They banned M-Gallade and M-Sableye which could counter such strategies, thus limiting the game even further. This resulted in a very plain monotype scene with the same teams appearing all the time, and people constantly leaving, not voting in decisions even if they had completed the criteria, and so at the very least, the monotype council decided to ban Hoopa-U. There is also a huge discussion with a decent amount of salt, but I can't find it right now. 

 

[Jess 574]

4 minutes ago, Wolfox said:

@Jess They once banned Mega Gallade because that with Knock Off was scary for psychic. I think I've said enough

It's quite ironic, considering how Mega Gallade is Psychic too, and they could use it to counter Dark types  

 

@NickCrash I like winning too, but I don't really like winning after banning anything reasonably powerful or threatening to me that the opponent can use. It's quite the childish approach they had on this.

Please send it to me if you find it, sounds like that chatlog would be a fine read for a Saturday night for me! I'll get my unsalted popcorn and read it. xD

[NickCrash 250]

Well, the discussion seems to have been buried, but I found this article they wrote right after the 2nd suspect test (which didn't ban Hoopa-U just yet).

Feel free to read and smell the bias all through the text

http://www.smogon.com/articles/monotype-suspect-coverage-hoopa

[Dragoknight 264]

-2 Mew +1 Goltini

 

Mew: 8

Jirachi: 5

Manaphy: 9

Victini: 6

[Wolfox 2093]

1 hour ago, NickCrash said:

Well, the discussion seems to have been buried, but I found this article they wrote right after the 2nd suspect test (which didn't ban Hoopa-U just yet).

Feel free to read and smell the bias all through the text

http://www.smogon.com/articles/monotype-suspect-coverage-hoopa

*sniffs* smells like bias covered up with a pile of salt

[NickCrash 250]

There's more salt on this than there are stars in the observable universe.

[Wolfox 2093]

"It's predictable, so it's okay."

You know what else is predictable? MEGA MAWILE. I mean that mon only has one common set. And Hoops U had quite a bit more