Tier Discussion

[Deleted User]

Tangrowth won't last long there.

[pyrromanis]

Borderline tiers are starting to become quite big! With Sun and Moon aproaching, i think we will need some new true tiers between the already known. In my oppinion we are going to need a tier between Ubers and OU and a tier between OU and UU. We already have a lot of mons that were banned for good reasons from OU, but are really bad in Ubers, and the BL tier is quite big to become a new one with the higher in usage UU mons (and maybe some low OU)

[NickCrash]

Ubers is just a banlist, so an intermediate tier is highly unlikely. However, UU is a completely different case. As it stands now, it has been divided into "High UU" and "Low UU" with certain pokemon in HUU ultimately getting the ban into BL, which hinders the game, as they are deemed too good to stay in their tier, yet without good reason to be frequently used in the above tier, being doomed to be seldom seen in competitive play. The issue is not about their general abilities, but the players' tendancy not to explore the BL or lower tiers for pokemon to be used in OU. The best example is Klefki which was in BL from the start of XY till now that some people started experimenting with it enough to bring it to 3.41% usage and up to OU. Now you see it in every third team, so it wasn't really that bad. However, not any pokemon can be given the same treatment, and usually the ones that receive bans after suspect tests are the ones people tend to forget.

So, goodbye Salamence from competitive play. OU is not your place, since stronger beasts can perform better in your every role, but in UU (or better said.... Low UU) they can't cope with your unpredictability. While the same cannot be said about Zam, because it's a beast for any tier, other mons like M-Houndoom, Kingdra, Togekiss and Victini are already forgotten in the eyes of the players, because of the graveyard called BL and BL2. Unless Smogon tries to divide the two into separate tiers to encourage the usage of more pokemon, I doubt they will see more usage in the near future. Let's hope Gen7 brings more gems to use and balance the lower tiers, because frankly speaking OU is where the most plays are made, hence the most balanced tier both in archetypes/playstyles but also threatlists and synergy potential.

[Jelly]

js ubers is no longer just a banlist with the creation of anything goes

[NickCrash]

Ubers was created so those broken mons could still be used in a form of competitive play. Even now, it's just filled with all things broken for OU. It is just getting somewhat balanced in terms of power and M-Rayquaza managed to break it more than P-Groudon does, so it resides alone in AG. You still won't take the tier into consideration when doing a suspect test on a pokemon for OU, and apparently Smogon makes sure to emphasize on this when performing those suspects.

[AuthorReborn]

I mean, they never take the tier a mon is being moved to into consideration when removing it from a tier. If it is too good for the current tier, it gets moved up, like Greninja or Lando-I, regardless of how often they are used in Ubers (almost never in their case). If it ends up seeing nonexistent usage in a tier, then they consider if it would be better is a lower tier, regardless of the actual impact it would have on the lower tier. Example: Honchkrow was in BL2 for the longest time before it dipped in RU and temporarily wrecked havoc. If they had taken into consideration the tier that they were moving Honchkrow into, they likely would have just kept it in BL2.

[Deleted User]

I still think the "BL0" tier isn't a bad idea. It serves the same purpose. Does anyone have recent ubers usage stats?

[NickCrash]

I found this but don't know how recent it is

Better use the site http://www.smogon.com/stats/2014-11/ubers-1630.txt

The pokemon used reveal how it still remains a banlist. Pokemon from lower tiers that receive high usage percentages are support and niche mons from OU and below, that get little usage in their respective tiers. This shows that Ubers is a completely different place and not a balanced tier like OU or UU. One could make a counter-argument on RU and the regeneration stall it offered, but at least there weren't so many broken things all together.

Edit: I also have the viability rankings

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oras-ubers-viability-ranking-thread-last-updated-post-1049.3535106/

[Deleted User]

Well based on their typical 3.41% to qualify for tier.

| 39 | Latias | 3.17810% | 6099 | 2.288% | 4289 | 2.205% | (SOUL DEW)
| 40 | Deoxys-Defense | 3.05814% | 12672 | 4.753% | 10553 | 5.426% |
| 41 | Arceus-Rock | 2.89328% | 2379 | 0.892% | 1753 | 0.901% |
| 43 | Latios | 2.37467% | 9301 | 3.489% | 6736 | 3.463% | (SOUL DEW)
| 46 | Lucario | 2.01126% | 13964 | 5.238% | 10339 | 5.316% | (MEGA)
| 47 | Mawile | 1.91582% | 7658 | 2.873% | 5643 | 2.901% | (MEGA)
| 49 | Arceus-Water | 1.68546% | 3187 | 1.195% | 2383 | 1.225% |
| 52 | Greninja | 1.48770% | 13154 | 4.934% | 9838 | 5.058%

| 56 | Arceus-Electric | 1.22682% | 3023 | 1.134% | 2083 | 1.071% |
| 57 | Reshiram | 1.18267% | 7262 | 2.724% | 4839 | 2.488% |
| 58 | Arceus-Poison | 1.14625% | 2377 | 0.892% | 1561 | 0.803% |
| 72 | Arceus-Grass | 0.76594% | 1759 | 0.660% | 1223 | 0.629% |
| 74 | Arceus-Dark | 0.73440% | 1781 | 0.668% | 1212 | 0.623% |
| 93 | Arceus-Dragon | 0.38863% | 2207 | 0.828% | 1552 | 0.798% |
| 114 | Deoxys | 0.22128% | 1409 | 0.529% | 1050 | 0.540% |
| 122 | Arceus-Fighting | 0.18130% | 684 | 0.257% | 469 | 0.241% |
| 132 | Arceus-Flying | 0.16838% | 579 | 0.217% | 404 | 0.208% |
| 133 | Arceus-Ice | 0.16746% | 900 | 0.338% | 610 | 0.314% |

This would essentially be the current BL0 tier (based on that info)

[Sheep]

If nothing else it would tell people which Arceus forms are actually good.

[Tartar]

If nothing else it would tell people which Arceus forms are actually good.

Here's a hint, they're all viable to some extent.

[NickCrash]

If anyone has problems using a certain OU pokemon, here are what items, spreads, moves, possible teammates, checks and counters are based on the August usage results. Note: It may take a while till you reach the pokemon of your choice because they are listed in usage, not alphabetically. Note2: These are strictly usage stats, meaning that although they might be what people tend to choose, they don't provide full movesets or hint that all other moves are unviable. Note3: The ou-1695 stats are the ones used for tiering, so don't bother looking at the 0 or 1500 stats.

http://www.smogon.com/stats/2016-07/moveset/ou-1695.txt

If nothing else, this helps newer players get easier into the (constantly changing) OU metagame and for the older ones to improve their teams. If you wish to find out more about other tiers, delete the part "ou-1695.txt" from the link. If you want to find out more stuff about the game statistics delete this part "moveset/ou-0.txt" from the link.

All that of course till November introduces Gen7 and all this becomes hard to implement in the new metagame.

[NickCrash]

Quagsire drops to NU RU

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/smogon-usage-based-tier-update-august-2016.3578581/page-6

Special notes:

| 28 | Zapdos | 6.977% | OU

| 29 | Amoonguss | 6.862% | OU

| 35 | Azelf | 6.112% | OU

| 67 | Seismitoad | 1.639% | OU

| 189 | Pikachu | 0.110% | OU

| 66 | Sableye | 3.579% | UU

| 67 | Slurpuff | 2.689% | UU

| 83 | Quagsire | 1.363% | UU

| 198 | Dustox | 0.102% | NU

[Odybld]

Azelf and Zapdos mean one thing: xtra's bird spam that is getting spammed and spammed and spammed. Azelf is in it while Zappy pretty much counters it.

The Quag and Amoon seemingly rose together because of ABR stall, but Amoon has much more uses in the tier that features Clef and Keld while Quag dropped since the ABR stall spam kinda stopped

[pyrromanis]

Can we just ban Alomomola from RU already? Its fellow Regenarator cancerous mons has already been gone! We should start baning things based on how pinky and fat they are from now on

[pyrromanis]

After the Alomomola suspect that players decided it should stay we now have a Dugtrio suspect test! My guess is that's going to be banned since Alo stayed but I have mixed feelings about it. Yes, I agree that trapping is unhealthy in RU, but on the other side Dugtrio is weak af! I tried many times to use it for Gaia, but everytime couldn't OHKO anything while it died to even non-STAB moves... And let's be honest here, who is going to use Duggy in UU?

[NickCrash]

If it was good enough, it would have already been UU.

[Ironbound]

Azelf and

The Quag and Amoon seemingly rose together because of ABR stall

Stall quality has fallen since gen 4. But then, I'll say that everything has become worse since gen 4. Also whenever you talk about quagmoongus, I'm invariably reminded of this thing that I can never forget:

[Odybld]

Trapping is fucking broken. Teams like the wonder trio stall and Zappy-Skarm stall (also know as Tele stall) are on the rise in high ladder... and they all abuse Duggy. Not to mention Diglett in LC. Fuck trapping

[SJMistery]

Trapping is not broken, it never was... Unless you are reckless enough to give clear safe switch ins to the trappers, but who would be careless enough to do that, especially on that forum? Come on! On BW we had CHANDELURE in OU and nobody complained, the veterans simply lured him in with good double switches to lethal checks... Seriously, I used him on my legendary BW OU team and what everyone considered broken was my custom Dragonite, not my Chandelure.

Speaking of wich. MAny people, me included, dislike the Smogon's ban-addiction of ORAS and XY. Ironically, by "not wanting to go the slippery slope on BW by banning Drizzle" they ended worse in ORAS than anybody would have guessed, especially with that absurd speedpass clause for a playstyle that already had been nerfed to oblivion; I wonder what would have happened if they had seen Crep's Ultimate Evil (basically denisspass, except with a Drifblim packing Clear Smog to prevent a counter-pass) on BW. We should reconsider reopening our old politics: minimal bans, only for the REALLY broken stuff like Salamencite, Gengarite or Kangaskhanite, orjust plain griefing sets like "FunBro" or a Rest+Trick+(insert two high PP moves there)+Shadow Tag+Infinite PP stalling on the opposing team. Not for Mawilite, Graninja, 2 or - baton passers, Aegislash, or non-Baton Pass Blaziken.

Or better yet, create a limit list for the "overcentralizing mons", giving them some opportunity cost to counter the fact that they are so easy to use, thinking specifically on Landorus, Greninja, Aegislash, Sablenite, Mawilite, Baton passers, etc. limiting the teams to 2 each.

Our server has about 0 battles simply because it's easier to just go to the general server, with the same rules and much more population. If we want ours to revive, we need to distinguish ourselves from the Smogon tyrant.

Edited September 23, 2016 by SJMistery

[Odybld]

We should reconsider reopening our old politics: minimal bans, only for the REALLY broken stuff like Salamencite, Trick+Shadow Tag or Kangaskhanite, not for Mawilite, Graninja, 2 or - baton passers, Aegislash, or non-Baton Pass Blaziken.

Thanks for agreeing with me that trapping is broken The differences between Diggies and Gothitelle is that Gothitelle was better equipped to ppstall the victim and the moles just attack to kill their victims.

Also a free switch in is not that hard to do. Especially in LC with all the slow Mienfoo and Chinchou. Take hit, Volt/Turn and one of your sweepers' checks is eliminated by LO EQ from the fastest little monster in the tier.

[pyrromanis]

Trapping is not broken, it never was... Unless you are reckless enough to give clear safe switch ins to the trappers, but who would be careless enough to do that, especially on that forum? Come on! On BW we had CHANDELURE in OU and nobody complained, the veterans simply lured him in with good double switches to lethal checks... Seriously, I used him on my legendary BW OU team and what everyone considered broken was my custom Dragonite, not my Chandelure.

02

Speaking of wich. MAny people, me included, dislike the Smogon's ban-addiction of ORAS and XY. Ironically, by "not wanting to go the slippery slope on BW by banning Drizzle" they ended worse in ORAS than anybody would have guessed, especially with that absurd speedpass clause for a playstyle that already had been nerfed to oblivion; I wonder what would have happened if they had seen Crep's Ultimate Evil (basically denisspass, except with a Drifblim packing Clear Smog to prevent a counter-pass) on BW. We should reconsider reopening our old politics: minimal bans, only for the REALLY broken stuff like Salamencite, Trick+Shadow Tag or Kangaskhanite, not for Mawilite, Graninja, 2 or - baton passers, Aegislash, or non-Baton Pass Blaziken.

02

Or better yet, create a limit list for the "overcentralizing mons", giving them some opportunity cost to counter the fact that they are so easy to use, thinking specifically on Landorus, Greninja, Aegislash, Sablenite, Mawilite, Baton passers, etc. limiting the teams to 2 each.

02

Our server has about 0 battles simply because it's easier to just go to the general server, with the same rules and much more population. If we want ours to revive, we need to distinguish ourselves from the Smogon tyrant.

Chandelure's hidden ability was never official released in gen 5! I don't know if you were playing another metagame, but Shadow Tag Chandelure was never a thing in OU.

As for trapping, I don't consider Arena Trap to be as broken as Shadow Tag. 1st of all you can't trap anything you want like Shadow Tag, and 2nd Duggy as the main Arena Trapper in OU is very very very weak!!! It doesn't ensure OHKOs even with SE Earthquakes (unless it's x4 effective) and it is literally get one shoted by anything, meaning it needs Sash to survive. And with hazzards being dominant I don't think it can easily keep its HP at max.

As for the easy-banning policy, I'm also against it. But this is what most people want, so if I want to play with less clauses it is my problem to find people that want to play with those rules...

[SJMistery]

Thanks for agreeing with me that trapping is broken The differences between Diggies and Gothitelle is that Gothitelle was better equipped to ppstall the victim and the moles just attack to kill their victims.

Also a free switch in is not that hard to do. Especially in LC with all the slow Mienfoo and Chinchou. Take hit, Volt/Turn and one of your sweepers' checks is eliminated by LO EQ from the fastest little monster in the tier.

By the way, my comment has lost a part, i just corrected it there but if you feel too lazy to read it again:

or just plain griefing sets like a Rest+Trick+(insert two high PP moves there)+Shadow Tag+lunar dance support for Infinite PP stalling on the opposing team.

The "Satan" Calm Mind set is epic Pursuit bait for absolutely every Dark type pokemon ever, plain and clear.

Plus I personally would let these sets go free as only the most passive of all pokemon can fall for it, especially Slowbro's. I will never understand how the fudge were smogonites dumb enough to not simply send their set up sweeper, Toxic inducer, phazer, Special wallbreaker, or VoltTurn user right at the turn Slowbro switches in and tries to use Block... Seriously, if you go around without ANY of those, your team sucks plain and clear. Tough if the response is that the old school councils have been replaced by a bunch of scrubby noobs, it would certainly explain why they have become so addicted to banning lately.

As for VoltTurn support: you are focusing on the problem wrong. The answer is giving the trapped pokemon a way to fight off the trapper. See below how I did it on BW:

Chandelure's hidden ability was never official released in gen 5! I don't know if you were playing another metagame, but Shadow Tag Chandelure was never a thing in OU.

As for trapping, I don't consider Arena Trap to be as broken as Shadow Tag. 1st of all you can't trap anything you want like Shadow Tag, and 2nd Duggy as the main Arena Trapper in OU is very very very weak!!! It doesn't ensure OHKOs even with SE Earthquakes (unless it's x4 effective) and it is literally get one shoted by anything, meaning it needs Sash to survive. And with hazzards being dominant I don't think it can easily keep its HP at max.

As for the easy-banning policy, I'm also against it. But this is what most people want, so if I want to play with less clauses it is my problem to find people that want to play with those rules...

WOW. You have really never played on BW OU in our Pokemon Online server right? We DID allow it, along with other DW unreleased pokemon as well as many banned pokemon like Genesect, weather abusers of all kinds, and Baton Pass, even after suffering a prototype of Deniss known as Crep, who even packed a Clear Smog pokemon to disrupt my bulky Dragonite from sweping after counter-passing with a ditto.

My favourite set was a custom Bronzong designed to disable rain and sand climatic teams AND act as a Chandelure bait: Fire blast does around 60% while EQ does around 52% in return. Add an Occa Berry and we survive the two fire attacks and get the KO.

Edited September 23, 2016 by SJMistery

[pyrromanis]

No, I have only played in Showdown's tiers and never in PO. And even if I considered trapping unban-worth, the Showdown's tiers and clauses are shaped from the majority! I/we can't make people fight with our rules as long as we are the minority

[SJMistery]

We did it on BW, we did it on XY until the lack of updates for Linux server-making for PO combined with the King's Shield glitch forced Amethyst to close it indefinitely, and we can do it again in Showdown if we truly go for it. All we need is a little more confidence in ourselves and our spirit.

We could even make a custom tier with Reborn's field effects to give players extra interest in our server.

Edited September 23, 2016 by SJMistery