Tier Discussion

[pyrromanis]

So in general, which pokemon from UU do you people believe are worth using in OU? Obvious answers include Empoleon, Chestnaut, Alakazam, M-Aerodactyl, M-Sceptile, Azelf, and Mamoswine.

Do you believe pokemon like the unique Bug/Electric Galvantula could find a position in the offensive presense of OU?

Galvantula imo is worth using in OU only for Sticky Web support.

It has a nice speed tier outspeeding all the 100 base, Garchomp, M-Pinsir and speed ties with Keldeo but unfortunately it hasn't enought special attack to be considered an offensive threat, even with Life Orb.

252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Hidden Power Ice vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 322-380 (77.2 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (it misses the OHKO on TankChomp, but fortunately Chomp can't OHKO either)

252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 333-395 (87.1 - 103.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO (has a small chance to OHKO defensive Lando, while it can secure the KO with Stone Miss)

252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Energy Ball vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 198-234 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (once again it misses the OHKO and Rotom can pivot with Volt Switch)

52 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Diancie: 216-255 (89.6 - 105.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (still can't secure the OHKO if Diancie chooses to M-evo without Protect)

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Galvantula: 292-345 (103.9 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (it needs to win the speed tie to win against specs Keldeo)

252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 289-343 (96.6 - 114.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO (still can't secure the revenge kill on Latios after the sp. att drop)

252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Thunder vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 281-330 (86.9 - 102.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO (again has a low chance to net that KO)

252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Volcanion: 281-330 (77.1 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (for once more it's not enough)

252 Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Galvantula: 281-331 (100 - 117.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Talon kills it before it even gets the chance to Thunder. I guess it kills no LO/band Talon sets)

These are the most "close but not enough" calculations I found just to show that offensive Galvantula needs more power if it wants to survive in OU. And that leads us to the use of choice specs! I happened to face 1 or 2 of those in OU and they put a lot of offensive pressure, but fortunately a pokemon with a Stealth Rock weakness hates to be locked into a move!

So as last options we have the Scarf and Sash sets. The first can surprise some faster users that they think can KO Galvantula before it moves, but without the boost of LO/specs i do not feel it is too threatening. The later as I said is probably the best if you combine it with Sticky Web instead of 4 offensive moves and use it as a lead.

In conclusion, I'd say that offensive Glavantula can be good in OU with the specs set only if you are very good with predictions and your team can keep away those pesky Rocks!

[Odybld]

First, what. Second, THE FUCK!!!

Conkeldurr, Sylveon, Celebi, Mega Alakazam and Mega Altaria all dropped. The first three go to UU while the two megas are banned to BL.

At the same time... Amoonguss from RU, Quagsire from NU and Zapdos from UU have all rised to OU. Seriously OU what the fuck. Also way to take away a drop that was so crucial to UU for the months that it lasted, Zappy. RIP. At least, some more OU stall means much less stall in lower tiers, which is a good thing, right?

Also Honchkrow to RU, Gastro, Smeargle and Aggron to NU, Mawille to PU

Source

[Fumble]

First, what. Second, THE FUCK!!!

Conkeldurr, Sylveon, Celebi, Mega Alakazam and Mega Altaria all dropped. The first three go to OU while the two megas are banned to BL.

At the same time... Amoonguss from RU, Quagsire from NU and Zapdos from UU have all rised to OU. Seriously OU what the fuck. Also way to take away a drop that was so crucial to UU for the months that it lasted, Zappy. RIP. At least, some more OU stall means much less stall in lower tiers, which is a good thing, right?

Also Honchkrow to RU, Gastro, Smeargle and Aggron to NU, Mawille to PU

Source

I think you mean Conk, Sylv, and Celebi go to UU. I'm pretty happy about those, tbh.

...but not that happy about the three stall mons going to OU like what the hell

The other five drops are very interesting, especially NU getting Smeargle.

edit: o I guess Machamp is going to RU soon *cries about confusion hax*

[Odybld]

...in my defense, I'm tired and not well at all.

I wonder how long NU is gonna take banded Head Smashes. Not much, I guess.

[Sheep]

I wonder how long NU is gonna take banded Head Smashes. Not much, I guess.

They have Steelix? Sure you don't want to come in on an Earthquake but that just means that they have to predict as much as you do. Oh and Phys Def Gastro walls it too.

But Mawile in PU? That is sexy.

[NickCrash]

Alright, can't say I haven't predicted most of them (except for Quagsire, because Stall will always be there in OU)

Most notable things here:

• RU meta is changing with the absense of the ever famous Regen-core
• My best UU teams will need to be reworked with the absense of Zapdos
• M-Alakazam and M-Altaria fell and the next in line seems to be M-Zard-Y
• Hoopa-U got perma-banned in Ubers halfway this month but it still was used enough to get a 2.8%
• Luxray dropped all the way down to FU
• Same people who use Emboar now tried with Trevenant, Scrafty and Ambipom.

[Ironbound]

I am not pleased with the invasion of fat blobby mons. I am also unhappy with the way OU staples are being shunted to BL or worse and how OU is slowly becoming fatter and rather lamer.

*mutters angrily about Volcanion*

[Deleted User]

Well with Sylveon now on the scene in UU, I think Goodra and Haxorus who've been skating on thin ice in UU are destined for RU, or rather, BL2 in Haxorus' case.

[NickCrash]

Well with Sylveon now on the scene in UU, I think Goodra and Haxorus who've been skating on thin ice in UU are destined for RU, or rather, BL2 in Haxorus' case.

Florges too. Probably we'll see Toxicroak and Nidoking rise in usage.

[Ironbound]

However, Goodra and stuff like Gastrodon might have a chance of a niche in OU because Volcanion is everywhere. Rise of the slugs much?

Also I am unhappy with the meta in general tbh. OU becoming stagnant and full of FAT blobs, a LOT of good mons dropping into the limbo of BL, Zapdos' exit and sylveon's entry messing up UU, Ubers still being unfun with that fat lava lizard everywhere, and I don't even know what's up with RU. I bet played NU or PU so count those out. I think I will just sit back and wait until S&M dump more stuff into this mess.

I agree with Jeri's sentiment: "Dammit Stallgon".

[NickCrash]

Volcanion is going to follow its brother in Ubers soon enough. If the meta continues like this, such overcentralization is going to prove bothersome. It's like Aegislash all over again. Super Scald is cool to use, but when your Rotom-W is 2HKO by it, something's wrong.

I'm personally happy with Amoonguss making it to OU, since it can justify its presense there without necessarily being in Stall teams. After Gengar and M-Venusaur, it's the first non-offensive Poison type to enter OU, which I believe is remarkable. Sure Grass/Poison makes for a good defensive pokemon, and its stats are not that bad. It won't centralize the metagame, and it won't be a problem. If nothing else, next month, it's dropping to UU along with Zapdos.

Quagsire is... another story for another day.

[Ironbound]

Quagsire is... another story for another day.

I'll say. Goddamn fatness, that's what.

[NickCrash]

By the way, I updated the OP with the May statistics and dropped February to the follow-up post.

What bothers me is the amount of new players that will see pokemon like Quagsire in OU, use it as they may find more suitable, without knowing the precise gimmicks that led to its rise in OU. I don't hate it because it's fat. I hate it because it can work under very specific frames (albeit admittedly very well) and has no purpose but to stay there, eat hits and recover, forcing people to run Toxic and/or Grass coverage.

[AuthorReborn]

Yeah, I'm just going to be playing UU for a little while, if anyone needs me....

It looks like UU is really the only tier that gained from these adjustments. NU gets to deal with Smeargle and Banded Aggron now (2HKOs Steelix with two different moves if you're wondering. It gets a kill nearly everytime it coems in because nothing can safely switch in. It'll likely rise up to BL3 soon enough).

RU is shifting rapidly with Amoongus gone. It'll be interesting to see what Honchkrow can do with a fairly strong movepool. Heat Wave is very nice for the likes of Escaviler and Brave Bird+Dark moves are very attractive in RU. Steel Wing also OHKOs Diance with Steel Wing after a Moxie boost with a Jolly Nature, so that is worth noticing. Honchkrow is going to be very threatning to play against in RU in coming weeks.

Honestly, Quag and The Mushroom moving on up to OU is only really annoying for facing newer players who will then play more stally because they see these interesting mons they've never used before. Otherwise, it's basically the same. Besides, look on the bright side. If these adjustments truly impact the metagame and a lot of people end up using these mons, they'll be moved on up to Ubers fairly soon. Once again though, this is nice for UU because that's two less fat mons that it has to worry about (also for RU and the like).

Conk is nice in UU. It can basically do a lot of damge to most everything in the tier thanks to Sheer Force Poison Jab, Elemental Punches, and fighting STAB. Celebi is in a nice place in UU and I was upset when it left it last time. It's nice both as a BP user for Sword Dances, Nasty Plots, and Calm Minds, but also as an offensive Pokemon. Giga Drain, Psychic, and Earth Power can handle most things that want to switch in. There are enough things threatning it that it won't become too centralized, but it will be especially nice against the ever present bulky Waters that are present on most teams (Vaporeon, Suicune, Almolamola, ect).

Sylveon will likely edge Hydreigon out of UU. Mence has other roles in the tier as an Intimidator and Defogger, so it should be able to stay put. Haxorous can kill it with Posion Jab after a DD and rock damage, so it should be fairly unaffected.

[NickCrash]

Pokemon that a month ago were in RU and NU respectively won't enter Ubers, no matter how much people use them. Basically, there is no way they overcentralize the metagame. If they become prominent threats, corresponding checks will rise from lower tiers, and other pokemon will drop accordingly to make space. If those fat mons didn't have the ability to break the lower tiers, where de facto less threatening and 'centralizing' pokemon reside, they have zero chance doing so in a higher tier, where the threats are bigger and stronger.

What you are basically saying is a reverse ban, in which a pokemon is too good to be used in a higher tier, but it wasn't good enough not to be banned in a lower tier, so the way to deal with this problem is to send it back to RU where it was doing fine and not attracting too much attention. That cannot be true as each BL stage is effectively a banlist for pokemon that would 'break' the competitive scene in the tier below. Simply put, we cannot send a pokemon to Ubers for overcentralizing the tier directly below it, when 2 more tiers below that there was no problem at all.

The higher you go, the more the variety of playstyles, since nobody stops you from using everything below that from BL all the way to FU. If nothing else, they both have their run for a few months in OU, then drop to UU where they see little usage anyway, and then drop back to NU. We may see the cycle repeat itself several times, like Zapdos does with its constant trips between OU and UU, but this time we may just see a more complex cycle that follows the same rule.

[Ironbound]

On an unrelated tangent, I find it slightly amusing when you say there is a greater variety in Ubers. Theoretically, you may be right in that anything at all (save Shenron) can be used there, but practically we all know there's just a handful of viable playstyle, most involving at least one of lava lizard, christmas deer or croissant dragon. I'm with AR here; not touched UU since DPPt, but I'm going to seek a place there until the higher tiers become a little more...fun.

[NickCrash]

That's far from what I'm saying. I said that the stall-mons that came to OU from UU or NU, won't enter Ubers because they cannot be as problematic as AR suggested. Plus a recently RU pokemon entering Ubers is absurd, because it's supposed to be doing well in RU, but suddenly OU can't take it? Like, it's viable in a lower tier, but broken in a higher one? That's what I was arguing against.

Sincerely, Zapdos didn't need to rise to OU. Now my best teams are illegal. Anyway, I'll go back to UU when I find time to team build in it.

[Ironbound]

On an unrelated tangent...

I said it was a different thing anyhow. But yes, zappy has been Volt Switching between OU and UU a little too much for my liking. I'm equally irked about it invalidating half my UU squads. Same way about Hoopa-U, really, (even though in hindsight it may have deserved it) although I won't be sad to see Volcanion go.

MEANWHILE I'm having an inordinate amount of fun using things like Helix and Weedragon in OU.

[Samalet]

although I won't be sad to see Volcanion go

Are you sure Volcanion will go?

[NickCrash]

Most probably yes. Hoopa-U and Volcanion have been centralizing the metagame around them, so most teams have to include hard counters. Hoopa-U was less of a pain on the defensive due to the omnipresense of Knock Off and U-turn, yet had the defensive qualities of a Latias with a 170 Base ATK for show, which proved bothersome. Likewise Volcanion is quite fat in that regard, and its mediocre SpDef receives a great boost by an AV set, which combined with a cleric proves equally bothersome, if not intimidating. It causes people to include even harder counters to it, especially since it cannot die from common STAB T-bolts from Thundurus unboosted and other specs users boosted. It's a nightmare, and the fact that it even has Water Absorb makes it more broken for the metagame.

[Ironbound]

Pretty much what Nick said. Also, the fact that Choice Specs Modest Volcanion can do about 48% to Latios and Azumarill with a resisted Steam Eruption is terrifying. The burn chance doesn't improve things. All the standard checks to special attacking Fire and Water types falter against this thing; one needs a fat Latias or increasingly harder checks/counters to avoid having it dictate your plays.

I am having loads of fun with Specially Defensive RestTalk Mega Gyarados, though. Laughs at Volcanion, doesn't care a damn about burns, can DD in its face and eventually kill it with Waterfall, which ignores Volc's Water Absorb thanks to Mold Breaker. Makes for a very difficult-to-stop late game win con, as well, if you get stuff like Keldeo and Ferrothorn out of the way.

[Fumble]

Honchkrow's been unanimously quickbanned from RU :>

I guess Mega Steelix, Meloetta, Delphox, etc. are back at the top again in RU then

also relooking at the stats and smh why does ambipom have 6% usage??? just let it drop

[Palpatine]

Well i might be really biased when talking about this but i personaly don't think Greninja should have been banned to ubers like ever..
Landorus (yes i hate it from the bottom of my soul) is far far more worse then Greninja in OU. Still i don't think that even he should be banned to ubers either. Idk always felt kinda wrong for Greninja to be banned, yea it's good, it provides awesome coverage but reaaaally reaally can't see it being such a huuge threat that it had to go ubers

[NickCrash]

Greninja received some very useful tools in Gunk Shot and Low Kick, when ORAS came out. These made it effective in using all kinds of sets and abuse an already extremely high base Speed stat, all attacks factoring in STAB to their damage, thanks to Protean. This on its own allows Greninja to fill so many roles, the tier shifted to build around it. An over-centralizing mon is unhealthy for the metagame, especially OU.

Landorus-I was banned long after, when it was apparent that Ice priority, and the occasional Aqua Jet, are the only things that touch it after a Rock Polish. Be reminded that it can abuse Sheer Force + Life Orb combo, with an arsenal of almost perfect coverage moves that benefit from the boosting ability+item. Plus it has decent bulk to tank a few non-STAB attacks. This makes it broken af for the meta, as it fills all roles at once.

[Fumble]

Tyrantrum and Mega Steelix have been banned from RU :[ - http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xy-oras-ru-tiering-info.3506185/page-2#post-6843153

Tyrantrum: 35:7 (83.3%)

Mega Steelix: 26:16 (61.9%)

and also due to this