Several general thoughts on v13 and state of the game, both good and bad

[Cyphre]

I'm not exactly a stranger to Rejuvenation, i've seen it mostly grow for many years, even wrote a fairly wordly Reborn and Rejuvenation comparison at some point, where Rejuvenation won in my opinion as a superior game. But considering v13 just happened, and Rejuvenation will have only 16 episodes, which was confirmed by Jan several times long ago, i feel like i need to talk about some things and get my opinion about them out there for discussion. That said, let's get to it. 

This will not be an extensive essay or full on analysis, mostly just notable points. 

1) Characters and writing

This is one thing i didnt have a chance to say since v13 dropped, by i am thouroughly impressed by how far Jan has come in his writing skills. Before dialogues were oftentime simplistic, only existing to carry characters from event to event. They were very far from bad, but not exactly on the par with some of the more complex works of fiction. However, replaying v13 from the beginning, this game's dialogues now possess 2 very important things they lacked quite a bit before: depth and flavor. There are a lot more silly moments, casual interactions, downtime. Characters interact with each other in a much more organic manner (which was good enough before, dont get me wrong), but v13 elevated a lot of dialogues, especially first half of the game (which, i assume, was affected the most) on a new level, which i cant not appreciate. I feel like this is not only a correct direction and huge improvement, this is something beyond what should have been done and i cannot be more impressed by it. 

However, i got a bit mixed feelings about characters. It's not about how they were written, it's not about them being good or bad, however tonal shifts in their behavior at times is a bit too much. 

For example, i think Geara was handled in the worst possible way he could be. He just got reformed from being split into pieces and is just "yeah, we cool now, i dont hate you, buh-bye". This was absolutely terrible and came out of nowhere. Instead, imagine this scenario: Geara, being a murderous psychopatic vengeful prick, comes back with a vengeance, threatening not only MC, but everyone around him now, and take a hostage again. But now we have grown as a person and as a trainer, and we actually can use our knowledge from Sashila sidequest about his origins to find more common ground and story from him and about him, his feelings about wispy tower and Vitus and all that, and achieve a better outcome, showing how far we have come since Valor mountain. I feel like Geara's tonal shift was absolutely undeserved, badly done and nonsensical. 
Another thing that wasnt done well, in my opinion, is Angie's return. In our first encounter Angie was mysterious and, more importantly, sinister. Now with, admittedly, very well done dungeon on a technical level, we have a place filled with goofy maids, humour and comedic reliefs, and Angie herself seems barely threatening and look more like a comic book villain of the worst kind. She doesnt have the upper hand, she doesnt show any kind of cunning, and her overconfidence this time is undeserved, to say the least. She is a clown now, which is... a shame.  
Kanon is another contender, however he has been a problem for a while. The biggest problem is, Kanon is just... not needed. Never was needed. You can cut him out completely and not a single event in the game will significantly change. And his entire new arc of him starting to think for himself, instead of blindly serving... as well as him being the first of Vitus creations... why? Nancy clearly showed that maids can develop real feelings and attachments and gain freedom of will and choices, and the whole Vitus thing is just tacked on for literally no reason. I would even argue that overall, Kanon is the worst character in the game and have no business being in here. 

Those are several of the most prominent examples that appeared exclusively in v13, however some of the things were played off much better, like the entire Hazuki and Blakeory arc. I wish we had more Crawli and Rorim, who were forgotten. I wish we would actually see Madelis bonding with Neved's daughter. I wish we would see more of Madelis and Cassandra interactions during the course of the whole game, back when she was an admin and in the position of power. A lot of the stuff is still need additional exposure, but generally characterization is done mostly well, however the entire cast need an overall major check on consistensy and tone, and if they are changed because of character development, that change need to be understandable and deserved. 

2) Story

This will be a separate point, because i am... concerned. A lot. I do love Rejuvenation and it's story to death, however we are now at 13 out of 16 episodes, and we. Know. NOTHING. I can give you a list of at least 40-50 major prominent questions that ALL need answering and need to start making sense soon, but the only question that got answered in v13 was Rune's fate, otherwise it just piled more questions. And the game need to start answering them at some point. Dumping a full novel of exposition in the eleventh hour is a VERY, VERY, VERY bad idea and will make every possible reveal just flat. We dont know anything about team Xen. We dont know a lot about Bladestar and V. We dont know a lot about Storm-9. We dont know a lot about Miera, Vitus, Rejuvenation co, Adrest and his mother, Springs, Garufa e.t.c. e.t.c. While i enjoy complexity of the narrative, the amount of questions piled up need to be unloaded, or it will all collapse in the end. And i feel like this is a very huge concern at this point. Even if Jan and co will be cheeky and do version 13.5, 14.75, 15.674859, the narrative need answers very soon. 

3) Location design and visuals, overall presentation

An unreal improvement over v12. Redone early areas are fantastic, tiles are much more varied and unique, locations feel better, and Zumi and her art deserve a medal. And a lot of her favorite food. My only wish is much more full character portaits or separate arts in important moments. Example: we go up Valor mountain, we go through the whole sequence, and it's the moment of the fight with Zetta and Geara. And there is a full screen art of them, imposing, in front of hour heroes, in this tragic, flaming hell. We look at them from below, Zetta is in doubts, Geara got a shit eating grin, magma is boiling, scarlet bloody skies above, obscured by vulcanic ash, our heroes full of determination. And battle transfers directly from this art. I do not know if this is possible at all and how much work it would be for poor Zumi, but hot damn this would add to already impressive and titanic work that was done over visuals and landscapes. I can only clap here. You are a legend, Zumi. 

4) Gameplay

I can only speak from my experience, and since it was exlusively on Intense, it is only one side of the coin. I've made an entire topic with critique about Field Effects, so i will not touch this topic again. One thing i need to address though is battle with Saki and her 2 Megas with held items. In my opinion, this is the point where you are going too far with designing a battle. Even enemies need to obey the same rules and play on equal field, when enemies start playing a different game, it becomes not fun for me and a lot of people. It's not even about difficulty, still a lot of ways to win, however the feeling of a fight being a cheap, horribly designed piece of poop remains and soils the experience. My personal feelings are such: i suggest whoever designs fights, probably Azery (not sure, sorry if not), to not venture into the territory of enemies bending pokemon rules. Ultimately, it's your game, your difficulty, your design, i can only express feelings of one experienced pokemon player, and they are not positive about such things.

Another thing i've seen is a general increase in difficulty, both in Normal and Intense, and while i personally like it outside of Field Effects that were butchered in v13, i feel like Rejuvenation still need to be accessible to average player without them needing to lower difficulty to casual, at least because of how good it's story is. 


Overall i want to say that Jan and team did an amazing work over v13 and only when played it from scratch i understood why it took years. The amount of work poured into v13 canot be compared to any version before and it shows, the quality of the game improves almost everywhere, and i feel like his entire team grew a lot as people and as creators over the years. This, however, didnt come without some major stinkers, and i truly believe they can be smoothed out in future versions. 


P.S. Zumi, seriously, please think about fullscreen art. You are so incredibly talented you could create a whole new dimension for all characters with this. Thank you~ 

 

[pizzagod13]

32 minutes ago, Cyphre said:

I'm not exactly a stranger to Rejuvenation, i've seen it mostly grow for many years, even wrote a fairly wordly Reborn and Rejuvenation comparison at some point, where Rejuvenation won in my opinion as a superior game. But considering v13 just happened, and Rejuvenation will have only 16 episodes, which was confirmed by Jan several times long ago, i feel like i need to talk about some things and get my opinion about them out there for discussion. That said, let's get to it. 

This will not be an extensive essay or full on analysis, mostly just notable points. 

1) Characters and writing

This is one thing i didnt have a chance to say since v13 dropped, by i am thouroughly impressed by how far Jan has come in his writing skills. Before dialogues were oftentime simplistic, only existing to carry characters from event to event. They were very far from bad, but not exactly on the par with some of the more complex works of fiction. However, replaying v13 from the beginning, this game's dialogues now possess 2 very important things they lacked quite a bit before: depth and flavor. There are a lot more silly moments, casual interactions, downtime. Characters interact with each other in a much more organic manner (which was good enough before, dont get me wrong), but v13 elevated a lot of dialogues, especially first half of the game (which, i assume, was affected the most) on a new level, which i cant not appreciate. I feel like this is not only a correct direction and huge improvement, this is something beyond what should have been done and i cannot be more impressed by it. 

However, i got a bit mixed feelings about characters. It's not about how they were written, it's not about them being good or bad, however tonal shifts in their behavior at times is a bit too much. 

For example, i think Geara was handled in the worst possible way he could be. He just got reformed from being split into pieces and is just "yeah, we cool now, i dont hate you, buh-bye". This was absolutely terrible and came out of nowhere. Instead, imagine this scenario: Geara, being a murderous psychopatic vengeful prick, comes back with a vengeance, threatening not only MC, but everyone around him now, and take a hostage again. But now we have grown as a person and as a trainer, and we actually can use our knowledge from Sashila sidequest about his origins to find more common ground and story from him and about him, his feelings about wispy tower and Vitus and all that, and achieve a better outcome, showing how far we have come since Valor mountain. I feel like Geara's tonal shift was absolutely undeserved, badly done and nonsensical. 
Another thing that wasnt done well, in my opinion, is Angie's return. In our first encounter Angie was mysterious and, more importantly, sinister. Now with, admittedly, very well done dungeon on a technical level, we have a place filled with goofy maids, humour and comedic reliefs, and Angie herself seems barely threatening and look more like a comic book villain of the worst kind. She doesnt have the upper hand, she doesnt show any kind of cunning, and her overconfidence this time is undeserved, to say the least. She is a clown now, which is... a shame.  
Kanon is another contender, however he has been a problem for a while. The biggest problem is, Kanon is just... not needed. Never was needed. You can cut him out completely and not a single event in the game will significantly change. And his entire new arc of him starting to think for himself, instead of blindly serving... as well as him being the first of Vitus creations... why? Nancy clearly showed that maids can develop real feelings and attachments and gain freedom of will and choices, and the whole Vitus thing is just tacked on for literally no reason. I would even argue that overall, Kanon is the worst character in the game and have no business being in here. 

Those are several of the most prominent examples that appeared exclusively in v13, however some of the things were played off much better, like the entire Hazuki and Blakeory arc. I wish we had more Crawli and Rorim, who were forgotten. I wish we would actually see Madelis bonding with Neved's daughter. I wish we would see more of Madelis and Cassandra interactions during the course of the whole game, back when she was an admin and in the position of power. A lot of the stuff is still need additional exposure, but generally characterization is done mostly well, however the entire cast need an overall major check on consistensy and tone, and if they are changed because of character development, that change need to be understandable and deserved. 

2) Story

This will be a separate point, because i am... concerned. A lot. I do love Rejuvenation and it's story to death, however we are now at 13 out of 16 episodes, and we. Know. NOTHING. I can give you a list of at least 40-50 major prominent questions that ALL need answering and need to start making sense soon, but the only question that got answered in v13 was Rune's fate, otherwise it just piled more questions. And the game need to start answering them at some point. Dumping a full novel of exposition in the eleventh hour is a VERY, VERY, VERY bad idea and will make every possible reveal just flat. We dont know anything about team Xen. We dont know a lot about Bladestar and V. We dont know a lot about Storm-9. We dont know a lot about Miera, Vitus, Rejuvenation co, Adrest and his mother, Springs, Garufa e.t.c. e.t.c. While i enjoy complexity of the narrative, the amount of questions piled up need to be unloaded, or it will all collapse in the end. And i feel like this is a very huge concern at this point. Even if Jan and co will be cheeky and do version 13.5, 14.75, 15.674859, the narrative need answers very soon. 

3) Location design and visuals, overall presentation

An unreal improvement over v12. Redone early areas are fantastic, tiles are much more varied and unique, locations feel better, and Zumi and her art deserve a medal. And a lot of her favorite food. My only wish is much more full character portaits or separate arts in important moments. Example: we go up Valor mountain, we go through the whole sequence, and it's the moment of the fight with Zetta and Geara. And there is a full screen art of them, imposing, in front of hour heroes, in this tragic, flaming hell. We look at them from below, Zetta is in doubts, Geara got a shit eating grin, magma is boiling, scarlet bloody skies above, obscured by vulcanic ash, our heroes full of determination. And battle transfers directly from this art. I do not know if this is possible at all and how much work it would be for poor Zumi, but hot damn this would add to already impressive and titanic work that was done over visuals and landscapes. I can only clap here. You are a legend, Zumi. 

4) Gameplay

I can only speak from my experience, and since it was exlusively on Intense, it is only one side of the coin. I've made an entire topic with critique about Field Effects, so i will not touch this topic again. One thing i need to address though is battle with Saki and her 2 Megas with held items. In my opinion, this is the point where you are going too far with designing a battle. Even enemies need to obey the same rules and play on equal field, when enemies start playing a different game, it becomes not fun for me and a lot of people. It's not even about difficulty, still a lot of ways to win, however the feeling of a fight being a cheap, horribly designed piece of poop remains and soils the experience. My personal feelings are such: i suggest whoever designs fights, probably Azery (not sure, sorry if not), to not venture into the territory of enemies bending pokemon rules. Ultimately, it's your game, your difficulty, your design, i can only express feelings of one experienced pokemon player, and they are not positive about such things.

Another thing i've seen is a general increase in difficulty, both in Normal and Intense, and while i personally like it outside of Field Effects that were butchered in v13, i feel like Rejuvenation still need to be accessible to average player without them needing to lower difficulty to casual, at least because of how good it's story is. 


Overall i want to say that Jan and team did an amazing work over v13 and only when played it from scratch i understood why it took years. The amount of work poured into v13 canot be compared to any version before and it shows, the quality of the game improves almost everywhere, and i feel like his entire team grew a lot as people and as creators over the years. This, however, didnt come without some major stinkers, and i truly believe they can be smoothed out in future versions. 


P.S. Zumi, seriously, please think about fullscreen art. You are so incredibly talented you could create a whole new dimension for all characters with this. Thank you~ 

 

1. I mostly agree, I feel Geara's shift was pretty weird. Replaying the game I do like all the new character moments so I would agree on that also. As for Angie, yeah, I kind of agree, she felt pretty underwhelming. Kanon does feel unneeded but so do so many other characters, the game just keeps throwing them at you and I do agree that it could do well with some of them being cut. But, your comment about Nancy isn't true. Nancy is NOT a servant. She was created from a weird box thing, Servants are not, they are just made by magic, not in a lab. So Nancy is different then Kanon and was literally designed with free will in mind (Remember the boxes were made to be new vessels for Clear/Kieran if they were destroyed, free will was an intended feature, not an anomaly like with Maids). 

 

2. Yeah I agree, it really feels like the twists were added in one clump and that made them lose there impact. Like MC has Arceus in them, cool. Oh and they reset time... ok... oh and by the way they are a "soul hotel"... oh and they are also just a box made in a lab. Like it is a bit much... 

 

As for the unanswered questions? Yeah I agree, we really don't know any of those important facts, at the very least we should know mostly what Team Xen wants, all we know is that they supposedly want to bring back Storm-9 (which may not even be true). V is probably gonna be shown in the Ana Sidequest, I don't think she is important to the main plot. 

 

3. I am indifferent to this point.

 

4. I only play on Normal/No Items/Set Mode/No Mega/Z. So I don't have exactly the same experience, but the AI cheating by knowing what you are going to do is pretty BS, it takes a lot of the strategy out of the game, since I can no longer do pivots, since the AI will just bop me if I try that. At least, they changed it so the AI doesn't read your Berries anymore, that was hella annoying. Also, the AI not playing by the rules and getting to cheat with stats, items and so on is the main reason I refuse to play Intense. 

 

As for field effects, yeah I agree. Souta is now my least favorite by far because there is NOTHING you can do about his field. Sure you can make it a mountain field but that does basically nothing for you and is a trap (since you need two smack downs and he can just reset it in one move, not to mention the Mountain field also increases, his damage), you can't even make it a cave field anymore. Frankly, I love that you could dynamically change fields during a battle to turn the field against the gym leader, it took a lot of work and set up, and was fun. But, now you can't do that anymore, you basically always just have to play against the field, and that makes cheesy strategies like needing a sky attack to miss t1, much more appealing. 

 

The biggest example of this being Saki, where the best strategy is a Sheninja with a seed. It isn't fun at all to use, and that is what the gyms have come to, is smacking your face into them until you win because there is no strategies that counter the field, or you can use cheese to win, neither are very much fun. 

 

So I would tend to agree, would love to see the field system returned to something where all the fields were connected and the field could be dynamically shifted during the battle, would make the mechanic actually cool, instead of the absolute pain that it is now. 

 

I still love the game, it can just be too much sometimes...

Edited August 19, 2021 by pizzagod13

[Dausk]

On 8/19/2021 at 3:59 PM, Cyphre said:

Kanon is another contender, however he has been a problem for a while. The biggest problem is, Kanon is just... not needed. Never was needed. You can cut him out completely and not a single event in the game will significantly change. And his entire new arc of him starting to think for himself, instead of blindly serving... as well as him being the first of Vitus creations... why? Nancy clearly showed that maids can develop real feelings and attachments and gain freedom of will and choices, and the whole Vitus thing is just tacked on for literally no reason. I would even argue that overall, Kanon is the worst character in the game and have no business being in here. 

You could also toss Lavender, Huey, Reina, and to an extent Venam (after her battle, not sure why we needed her as a rival), into the unneeded character's list. The problem that becomes apparent beginning with our arrival to GDC is that we have so many characters spewing padded remarks all the time. I thought the early game did a good job of balancing gameplay with dialogue, but it becomes a major issue the further one progresses. For instance, the V13 content was very enjoyable, but it felt a lot longer than it needed to be (mainly because of Kanon and the other aforementioned characters). For example, imagine how insufferable and confusing it would be if Narcissa's side quest was somehow included in the main story; that's how I feel about Kanon and the other characters's inclusion. Narcissa's sidequest works because it doesn't interrupt the pacing of the main story, and that's what I think a lot of the Kanon stuff should have been relegated to.

 

2. I concur. One huge problem (as I've mentioned many times before) is the story and gameplay dissonance. For example, the other characters not helping you battle Zetta in Valor Shore; Narcissa not intially helping you with Giratina or Eli and Sharon; and Erick, Adam, Aelita, and Delpha not helping you battle Clear in V13 (Why where they even there if they're not going to do anything?).

 

3. I also love the mapping and art, but I think having too much of it like you suggest would be too distracting and immersion-breaking (the full screen-sized portraits are already pushing it imo).

 

4. Not sure how to feel about this one. Intense is meant to be nothing but brutal, and I'm not sure how the devs would be able to keep this up throughout the whole game without pulling some crazy stuff (although, if they can within the game's boundaries that would be preferable). I think the other difficulty options are fine as of the current patch, the entire point of having the casual difficulty is to be inclusive to those not willing to spend time on competitive sets. That said, an easy mode might be a good idea for the game's final version. I agree that a more dynamic field system would be appreciated.

[pizzagod13]

9 minutes ago, Dausk said:

You could also toss Lavender, Huey, Reina, and to an extent Venam (after her battle, not sure why we needed her as a rival), into the unneeded character's list. The problem that becomes apparent beginning with our arrival to GDC is that we have so many characters spewing padded remarks all the time. I thought the early game did a good job of balancing gameplay with dialogue, but it becomes a major issue the further one progresses. For instance, the V13 content was very enjoyable, but it felt a lot longer than it needed to be (mainly because of Kanon and the other aforementioned characters). For example, imagine how insufferable and confusing it would be if Narcissa's side quest was somehow included in the main story; that's how I feel about Kanon and the other characters's inclusion. Narcissa's sidequest works because it doesn't interrupt the pacing of the main story, and that's what I think a lot of the Kanon stuff should have been relegated to.

 

2. I concur. One huge problem (as I've mentioned many times before) is the story and gameplay dissonance. For example, the other characters not helping you battle Zetta in Valor Shore; Narcissa not intially helping you with Giratina or Eli and Sharon; and Erick, Adam, Aelita, and Delpha not helping you battle Clear in V13 (Why where they even there if they're not going to do anything?).

 

3. I also love the mapping and art, but I think having too much of it like you suggest would be too distracting and immersion-breaking (the full screen-sized portraits are already pushing it imo).

 

4. Not sure how to feel about this one. Intense is meant to be nothing but brutal, and I'm not sure how the devs would be able to keep this up throughout the whole game without pulling some crazy stuff (although, if they can within the game's boundaries that would be preferable). I think the other difficulty options are fine as of the current patch, the entire point of having the casual difficulty is to be inclusive to those not willing to spend time on competitive sets. That said, an easy mode might be a good idea for the game's final version. I agree that a more dynamic field system would be appreciated.

Your point on 2 is something I thought about several times, like why are they here if they are not gonna help me? I get the game is meant to be hard and having that Zetta battle (or other similar situations) be a 36v6 battle would make it easy, but then why have them there? Why not have the player arrive first and battle Zetta, then your friends show up after the battle. 

[0ris]

I've played through all of Intense, no items, set mode, and three fights stood out to me.

The moment Saki got 2 megas was the moment I decided to Shedinja-seed her. That sort of cheapness doesn't deserve anything less than cheese; if you're going to cheese me, then I'll cheese you right back. The Geara fight beforehand was satisfying and difficult enough to be considered a final battle for this version anyway, although I get the feeling he's either a fake Geara, acting, got hypnotized somehow, or the spring healed not just his wounds but purged the pissant out of him.

 

Another thing I hated was that Hazuki's pokemon had negative speed EVs. To me, anything the game does that the player could not ever do with the exception of from the single-Pokemon boss battles crosses a line. I thought something was strange when the Sirfetched outsped my Quiet, 0-IV Camerupt under TR, so I looked it up and saw negative EVs on the wiki.

 

The other, much-earlier battle was Narcissa. Specifically, her Drifblim with Unburden + Hypnosis. The accuracy boost from the field + the enemy trainer accuracy boost in Intense (which is another thing I dislike, but whatever) makes for the fastest Pokemon in existence essentially using Spore as often as it wants. That's not an end-game boss strat, that's the third gym. No sleep-clause makes it so that you just have to sit there and hope you can wake up in time rather than switching into a reasonable response, and don't even think about using a Chesto Berry because the AI reads your items and will just attack or switch out instead. Ironically, one of the best counters for that is a Drifblim of your own if you can max its speed to KO Narcissa's with Hex.

[fellowry]

59 minutes ago, 0ris said:

I've played through all of Intense, no items, set mode, and three fights stood out to me.

The moment Saki got 2 megas was the moment I decided to Shedinja-seed her. That sort of cheapness doesn't deserve anything less than cheese; if you're going to cheese me, then I'll cheese you right back. The Geara fight beforehand was satisfying and difficult enough to be considered a final battle for this version anyway, although I get the feeling he's either a fake Geara, acting, got hypnotized somehow, or the spring healed not just his wounds but purged the pissant out of him.

 

Another thing I hated was that Hazuki's pokemon had negative speed EVs. To me, anything the game does that the player could not ever do with the exception of from the single-Pokemon boss battles crosses a line. I thought something was strange when the Sirfetched outsped my Quiet, 0-IV Camerupt under TR, so I looked it up and saw negative EVs on the wiki.

 

The other, much-earlier battle was Narcissa. Specifically, her Drifblim with Unburden + Hypnosis. The accuracy boost from the field + the enemy trainer accuracy boost in Intense (which is another thing I dislike, but whatever) makes for the fastest Pokemon in existence essentially using Spore as often as it wants. That's not an end-game boss strat, that's the third gym. No sleep-clause makes it so that you just have to sit there and hope you can wake up in time rather than switching into a reasonable response, and don't even think about using a Chesto Berry because the AI reads your items and will just attack or switch out instead. Ironically, one of the best counters for that is a Drifblim of your own if you can max its speed to KO Narcissa's with Hex.

The AI actually got fixed in newer version, it no longer read held item, so chesto berry lead is viable strategy

[0ris]

1 minute ago, fellowry said:

The AI actually got fixed in newer version, it no longer read held item, so chesto berry lead is viable strategy

Pretty sure Geara was reading my stat-heal berries. It's how I baited his Pokemon into attacking rather than status so I could Sucker Punch them.

Unless you just meant for that Narcissa fight?

[fellowry]

1 minute ago, 0ris said:

Pretty sure Geara was reading my stat-heal berries. It's how I baited his Pokemon into attacking rather than status so I could Sucker Punch them.

Unless you just meant for that Narcissa fight?

Should be for all fight though? Not sure myself cause i havent reach Axis Ruin Geara in my newest Playthrough in patch 13.0.4, but for Narcissa it no longer read held item

 

[Cyphre]

5 hours ago, Dausk said:

I also love the mapping and art, but I think having too much of it like you suggest would be too distracting and immersion-breaking

I see what you mean, but i mostly mean some defining moments for characters, examples: Valor fight, Rift-G when we are finishing her, Pupper Master's final stand, moments when the "epic" is so far through the roof it can be poured into the artwork. Just several of them during the game would be great.