Scenes that changed your mind on a character.

[Magus543]

With a large cast in this game, not all of them have the best first impressions, but usually there is a scene or scenes that change your mind on a character usually for the better or for the worse. So what scenes have changed your opinion on a character?

 

I'll start with two examples, 1: Erin. I really liked her scenes with Melia in the library. I wasn't really fond of her initially, and considered her addition to the group unnecessary because she came off as just a jerk and bloating the cast even further. But she got to show off her past and insecurities in a way that felt very organic and i loved her interactions with Melia. Ultimately much like the Player, she's a regular person swept up in greater events unlike the others who are either a runaway, or gym leader, so her wondering if they will go their separate ways once team Xen is defeated is quite relatable if you lost contact with your high school friends going to college. Wait too real.

 

2 Flora: Well i started out as seeing her as a self-righteous terrorist mastermind too full of herself, but when she condemned Florin to death for trying to spare her life, and reduced Ryland to a puppet, that's when my view of her went from at least she has good intentions to i would genuinely prefer Geara to her as a leader.  

 

 

[Gengar768]

 

 

Spoiler

theres a scene where the player has a choice of either stopping karrina from killing karen or letting her do it

at first i was like "oh i guess karen DID do some fd up stuff so in a way she deserved it"...But its the scene after that had me 

Karrina just killed karen and shes on the edge of a bridge. you the player get the option to flat out kill her.

 

Most of the characters in rejuv at this point had a reason for killing(whether it was morrally wrong it was a reason noneless)

but this time felt really wrong like it was really cold blooded and there was no reason you should have done it

 

even though it was a choice the fact we still get the option to scares me into thinking who the real villan is?

 

[MhicKy]

1. Karrina - At first I was cool with her UNTIL we find out "the truth" about her when Melia and Erin are at the Library.. Then it got even WORST when she tried to kill Karen, I mean, I get, Karen killed her parents but as Karen said herself "she was broken at the time" and yeah, through out the game you can see that something is wrong with Karen mentally and by that point she has somehow managed to get back to normal and apologize to what she done when she wasn't so, for me, Karrina should had accessed the situation a little better, it's like being mad at a person with alzheimers for forgetting your birthday or something..

2.  Nastasia and Madelis - At first I though they were your common evil villain b****es, in the beginning they are quite one dimensional so when we get to know them better things start to change, specially for Nastasia with her getting quite fond of Ren and even going rogue and teaming up with us, Madelis also clearly has something in her past biting her, as Cassandra teased her in the party and I am glad she rescue Melia when the rest of the cast was busy with something else and couldn't be of much help

3. Flora - Same case as you, in fact, in the beginning I was even starting to regret telling her secret to Florin and putting her in jail after I realized who Cassandra really is and I start to think "Oh shit.. Did I f***ed up?!" but for the same reasons you cited, sentencing her own brother to death when he himself pleaded the judge to go easy on her, blowing up her grunts just for the sake of taking down Cassandra and not telling them it's a suicide mission and mind controlling Ryland, this regret faded away and I was filled with deep hatred, I wanted her to suffer, I wanted karma to hit her HARD

[Magus543]

Funny thing about Flora is that because she's had her status as a villain revealed much more earlier, she actually has the time to be a compelling and love to hate antagonist. In fact she even reflects one of the themes in the game, sacrifice. Like If you recall in the bad future arc, there was all this drama if you had to sacrifice a person you loved to save millions or millions to save one person and if Melia had the will to achieve that sacrifice. Vivian willing to sacrifice herself to save the planet and the rejection of Cera and Anju on that idea, and the consequences.  

 

Flora is willing to sacrifice to achieve her long term goals, yet she doesn't ask for the consent and manipulates people to do it for her, and unlike Melia or Vivian lacks the compassionate heart to actually care about the people or place she's trying to save. It's sort of driven home by her grand speech that you need to sacrifice in order to win. 

 

It also helps that she actually acknowledges us as the adversary who actually is dangerous to her plans, instead of giving credit to another person.  It's a testament to having an actual character and goal revealed is superior writing to mystery box esque villains like Madam X. I think Flora was a much more entertaining antagonist than Madam X in less time.  Then again, the game is still ongoing so maybe Madam X may stick a landing. 

[MhicKy]

11 minutes ago, Magus543 said:

Funny thing about Flora is that because she's had her status as a villain revealed much more earlier, she actually has the time to be a compelling and love to hate antagonist. In fact she even reflects one of the themes in the game, sacrifice. Like If you recall in the bad future arc, there was all this drama if you had to sacrifice a person you loved to save millions or millions to save one person and if Melia had the will to achieve that sacrifice. Vivian willing to sacrifice herself to save the planet and the rejection of Cera and Anju on that idea, and the consequences.  

 

Flora is willing to sacrifice to achieve her long term goals, yet she doesn't ask for the consent and manipulates people to do it for her, and unlike Melia or Vivian lacks the compassionate heart to actually care about the people or place she's trying to save. It's sort of driven home by her grand speech that you need to sacrifice in order to win. 

 

It also helps that she actually acknowledges us as the adversary who actually is dangerous to her plans, instead of giving credit to another person.  It's a testament to having an actual character and goal revealed is superior writing to mystery box esque villains like Madam X. I think Flora was a much more entertaining antagonist than Madam X in less time.  Then again, the game is still ongoing so maybe Madam X may stick a landing. 

Flora reminds me of that Lord Farkquaad quote
"Some of you may die but that's a sacrifice I am willing to make!"

[Tikkit]

Spoiler

Mine would have to be our battle with Zetta in the nightmare world. While previously he was just another antagonist and evil admin, and I was too focused on the wtf aspect of him being a Solosis to actually focus on the emotional impact of the scene with him at Valor Mountain, here we can find a lot of substance. Every pokemon on his team is named, and spell out the sentence "Please do not forget me" + Zepto, his ace. Seeing that level 1 Solosis actually hit me. It made me realize that I was going to miss the sometimes over the top team Xen admin. It made me realize that because of what happened on Valor Mountain, he's never going to get closure with his "family". His only real relative is left hating him, and this Zetta is left contemplating that, as he was created from Melia's nightmares of him. It made me stop thinking of him as just being some random evil team admin, and made me pity him, and regret that his story had to end this way.

 

[TripleHHH]

1 The reveal that Venam stole Tesla's Charizard. Probably a pet peeve of mine and I'm understanding it way different that the devs intended, but in a game that goes all the way to establish Pokemons are living beings with bonds with their Trainers (see Hapi scene with Melia on Terajuma and Huey interactions with his Flareon) stole a Pokemon should be a incredible hideous crime that put you on par with villainous organizations. And still after having already kidnapping the Charizard she still has the nerve of go ask, all sad and polite, Amber and the PC if we can help search for Melia. This whole scene combined with the part the she got a job just for a free wage and vacation (again probably my real life issues projecting into my interpretation of the game, but I already had to work with someone that was only there because he was friend with the boss and the rest of the team ended up overworked because he didn't do his part) estabilished Venam as one of the most unlikeable NPCs that I ever had to call friend in a game that I played. 

 

2 Zetta's scene on Nightmare World for the reasons @Tikkit wrote

 

On 4/29/2020 at 1:57 AM, MhicKy said:

1. Karrina - At first I was cool with her UNTIL we find out "the truth" about her when Melia and Erin are at the Library.. Then it got even WORST when she tried to kill Karen, I mean, I get, Karen killed her parents but as Karen said herself "she was broken at the time" and yeah, through out the game you can see that something is wrong with Karen mentally and by that point she has somehow managed to get back to normal and apologize to what she done when she wasn't so, for me, Karrina should had accessed the situation a little better, it's like being mad at a person with alzheimers for forgetting your birthday or something..

 

I mean, there is a big jump between forgetting a birthday and killing someone's parents in front of them. Also it's not like:

a) it was a natural disease or accident, Karen decided to tamper with Garufan Magic to create Crests (a ritual that requires large sacrifices of pokemon lives) and it ends up backfiring;

b) Karen actually do something of substance to atone (like confessing and going to jail) after she recovers her sanity. She just keeping saying "I'm sorry" and then complains that Karrina doesn't think that's enough.

[Magus543]

Yeah Venam stealing the Charizard was not cool, and it's less cool that Melia, Kanon, and the MC are not doing anything substantial. Though i'm hoping the dev team has Venam give back the Charizard next update. To show that Venam is going to truly change as a person instead of just saying she will. 

 

Speaking off, while i'm more tolerant of Venam's antics than some and i actually like her, i really don't like how Venam promises to change and then doesn't. Like there was this scene before going to the past where she promises Melia to improve and 30 minutes later she unleashes a Charizard in a crowded restaurant. That could have killed people. 

 

Hopefully V13 gives her the chance to atone for her actions and start growing. Though i'm of the opinion that Amber has more development and likability than Venam so far. 

[MhicKy]

@TripleHHH
Still.. Jumping to murder isn't gonna make her any less different than her..
Besides we don't know if Karen will atone yet, the story isn't done, I had the feeling that eventually Karen would be helpful somehow, kinda like if you choose to release Giratina from the lab or not, there would be two branches on the storyline related to that decision.. The comparison I did was not exactly an equivalency but the meaning is that you can't really expect someone with a mental disorder to abide to social (or even lawful) rules, in the end she did assumed what she did and apologized, I am a firm believe that people deserve a second chance unless they are too far gone, even Flora, I was considering maybe she had a good purpose for what she was doing but the moment she stoop as low as sacrificing her own grunts and mind controlling Reyland was the moment I saw she was too far gone to give second chances but Karen is a special case since she was mentally deranged and, as we saw, she isn't evil when she is sane, she even admits that doing the Garufan Ritual was a mistake she never should had done, if her mental state continued to be the insane one I would totally be on Karrina's side tho' since she was pretty dangerous but like I said, I have the feeling the devs will do something about choosing not to kill Karen that will be worth it

PS: I also wouldn't kill Karrina either even tho' I know she was followin Spacea and Tiempa's orders and we have been manipulated since I don't really know what compelled her to agree to them, maybe they lied to he as well, who knows, again, I believe in second chances and won't just jump the gun and choose murder.

[Magus543]

Has Karrina considered just arresting Karen? Like prison is a thing in Pokemon and in this game especially. If Karrina just wanted to have Karen arrested, i would side with her easily, Karen is dangerous and unstable with too much power.  

[Tikkit]

Maybe being a member of the Elite 8 puts her above the law or something? I don't know, because Karen is a fun character, and I enjoy seeing what weird thing she's going to do next, I don't really care either. Its why I haven't chosen to let her die, and I probably won't unless I also want to kill Karrina while I'm at it. Might as well if we're already killing a member of the Elite 8.

[TripleHHH]

20 hours ago, MhicKy said:

Still.. Jumping to murder isn't gonna make her any less different than her..

 

Oh no, I definitely don't think the murder would make any different of her. In fact their whole story is about how journey to avenge a death of a loved one causing themselves to corrupt and become a murderer. I also end up stopping her from killing Karen, but it's mostly because I find Karen more entertaining and the fact that Karrina works for Space and Tiempa, I'm not impressed by Karen response to the whole situation on Zygara Castle. Hopefully by stopping Karrina I can put a stop to this cycle but we still have to see.

 

19 hours ago, Magus543 said:

Has Karrina considered just arresting Karen? Like prison is a thing in Pokemon and in this game especially. If Karrina just wanted to have Karen arrested, i would side with her easily, Karen is dangerous and unstable with too much power.  

Could she even do that? Besides the fact that Karen has a position of power as an Elite 8 (although we actually don't know how much influence this has on the judiciary system), she can also do magic which would make her long term incarceration really dangerous. More importantly how would Karrina prove it? She can't say the real reason of why Karen killed her parents because she wants to protect the Garufan secret, and she can't even testify against Karen using her real identity because thanks to time travel she looks way older than the child she was supposed to be on this time period.

 

 

21 hours ago, Magus543 said:

Yeah Venam stealing the Charizard was not cool, and it's less cool that Melia, Kanon, and the MC are not doing anything substantial. Though i'm hoping the dev team has Venam give back the Charizard next update. To show that Venam is going to truly change as a person instead of just saying she will. 

 

Yeah, the whole complacency of the MC with the whole situation really bothered me. I always thought we should have a option on the train station instead of simple ignoring it, specially because the Charizard lost all importance to the story after that only reappering on the Venam fight on GDC. Probably it will addressed on the next update as it seems to have a Venam focus.

[Magus543]

1 hour ago, TripleHHH said:

 

Oh no, I definitely don't think the murder would make any different of her. In fact their whole story is about how journey to avenge a death of a loved one causing themselves to corrupt and become a murderer. I also end up stopping her from killing Karen, but it's mostly because I find Karen more entertaining and the fact that Karrina works for Space and Tiempa, I'm not impressed by Karen response to the whole situation on Zygara Castle. Hopefully by stopping Karrina I can put a stop to this cycle but we still have to see.

 

Could she even do that? Besides the fact that Karen has a position of power as an Elite 8 (although we actually don't know how much influence this has on the judiciary system), she can also do magic which would make her long term incarceration really dangerous. More importantly how would Karrina prove it? She can't say the real reason of why Karen killed her parents because she wants to protect the Garufan secret, and she can't even testify against Karen using her real identity because thanks to time travel she looks way older than the child she was supposed to be on this time period.

 

 

 

Yeah, the whole complacency of the MC with the whole situation really bothered me. I always thought we should have a option on the train station instead of simple ignoring it, specially because the Charizard lost all importance to the story after that only reappering on the Venam fight on GDC. Probably it will addressed on the next update as it seems to have a Venam focus.

It's well known that Karen is pretty psychotic, since Rhodea instantly fears her when the Puppet Master sends her to the apartment. 

 

Like instead of calling Team Anti-Assist who make Team Rocket look competent, maybe call the police or local authorities to assist her against Karen? That way authorities know that Karen is dangerous at the very least. Sure Karrina may be a gang member but she should understand the advantage of putting heat on Karen.

 

 

Then again the League and possibly the government has been infiltrated by robots so who knows how fucked up the legal system is in Aevium. XD

[Aphelli]

11 minutes ago, Magus543 said:

It's well known that Karen is pretty psychotic, since Rhodea instantly fears her when the Puppet Master sends her to the apartment. 

 

Like instead of calling Team Anti-Assist who make Team Rocket look competent, maybe call the police or local authorities to assist her against Karen? That way authorities know that Karen is dangerous at the very least. Sure Karrina may be a gang member but she should understand the advantage of putting heat on Karen.

 

 

Then again the League and possibly the government has been infiltrated by robots so who knows how fucked up the legal system is in Aevium. XD

I don't know, Karrina is rather the kind of person to take justice into her own hands, so perhaps she could lock Karen up herself? After all, she managed to get the drop on her in Alamissa Urben...

 

I agree 100% about the legal system. It's absolutely messed-up.

[Magus543]

1 minute ago, Mindlack said:

I don't know, Karrina is rather the kind of person to take justice into her own hands, so perhaps she could lock Karen up herself? After all, she managed to get the drop on her in Alamissa Urben...

 

I agree 100% about the legal system. It's absolutely messed-up.

I love how Florin can openly ask the judge for a personal favor in the middle of court when trying to have Flora put under house arrest, like that is a serious breach of ethics and would have gotten Florin in a lot of trouble.

 

Still i'm curious how Flora will be treated in V13 since she was arrested. Again. 

[MhicKy]

I mean.. Venam stole the Charizard because she needed a pokemon to use Magma Drift but she could still had returned it after Mount Valor instead of keeping it.. It's not even Amber's Charizard, it's Tesla's, mom of the yaer, so I feel bad for Tesla.. In fact, I found Venam's excuse pretty shitty since she could had gotten something like a Salazzle at this point, that's the pokemon I used to cross anyway and it's a Poison/Fire, which goes with her theme

The whole Karen thing is a mess.. I just hope she redeem herself in V13 and somehow make amends with Karrina..

[Tikkit]

Realistically, Karen and Karrina are never gonna make amends. In fact, making future side content for them seems like an interesting prospect, since there's three different ways HL4 can go down, and all of them have major differences.

[TripleHHH]

21 hours ago, MhicKy said:

I mean.. Venam stole the Charizard because she needed a pokemon to use Magma Drift but she could still had returned it after Mount Valor instead of keeping it.. It's not even Amber's Charizard, it's Tesla's, mom of the yaer, so I feel bad for Tesla.. In fact, I found Venam's excuse pretty shitty since she could had gotten something like a Salazzle at this point, that's the pokemon I used to cross anyway and it's a Poison/Fire, which goes with her theme

 

I think that excuse doesn't even work ingame as: 1) she stole it before she knew that Melia had run to Mount Valor alone so there was no sense of urgency to acquire a Pokemon capable of learning Magma Drift and 2) Venam has a Nidoqueen on both the Normal and Intense Mode when fighting alongside Saki, and Nidoqueen can learn Magma Drift. I wonder if the last point this is actually a nod to how bad her excuses are or it just a dissonance between the story and the battles (kind like Melia statement that she finally had a six member when Mimikyu joined her, but she already had a full team when fighting beforehand).

 

 

[Magus543]

44 minutes ago, TripleHHH said:

 

I think that excuse doesn't even work ingame as: 1) she stole it before she knew that Melia had run to Mount Valor alone so there was no sense of urgency to acquire a Pokemon capable of learning Magma Drift and 2) Venam has a Nidoqueen on both the Normal and Intense Mode when fighting alongside Saki, and Nidoqueen can learn Magma Drift. I wonder if the last point this is actually a nod to how bad her excuses are or it just a dissonance between the story and the battles (kind like Melia statement that she finally had a six member when Mimikyu joined her, but she already had a full team when fighting beforehand).

 

 

I think Melia's line was kind of a hold over because back then, she didn't actually have a full team, hence all the screaming about Valor Mountain's boss. Hahahaha.

[Tikkit]

I think that Zetta and Geara are actually the two most competent evil team admins to date in terms of battling skill also helps.