Argument that Reborn is Immoral?

[Jess]

I always thought that Pokemon should have a 12+ PEGI rating anyways (instead of the 7+ it has received)... So, in general it isn't a game for, say, elementary school children, due to high mentions of terrorism.

[Zarc]

As mentionned before , yeah this game is pegi  12 or more. It’s trully not a game for childs , unlike the  anime. But of course it’s perfect for people like us cause darker story , more mature , well made universe. 

[Swampellow]

I think it would be fair to mention that in the I Choose You movie it straight up shows a Luxray dying from freezing to death. 

[Mechathulhu]

I actually genuinely prefer the atmosphere that Reborn has cultivated. For a long time the main series Pokemon games have literally everything in common with each other as humanly possible, save a few bonus mechanics here and there and obviously the new cast of Pokemon each generation. Reborn breaks from the same old "just as I expected" feeling of a Pokemon game for me, which was nice as I was feeling really ho-hum about the main series and thought I was never going to be interested in Pokemon again. I'm also going to be real here about people who are sensitive to strong themes that Reborn presents, you are free to judge on how immoral you feel it is, no one is arguing you're not allowed to think that. Some games take some thick skin to face, especially if the themes relate to you heavily in some way, and my condolences to those affected. I just take solace in the fact that I can play Pokemon in a different direction from the cookie cutter feeling I get from the main series, and that is how I see Pokemon Reborn.

[Giratina]

I don't think Reborn is immoral. Putting moral value on the creation of any kind of art has historically been a very slippery slope. I can kind of see where your friend is coming from, in that a lot of the aspects of the story (in the early game, at least, which is where I am) seem like they're not especially well implemented. What I mean is, they're just kind of presented as Edginess for Edge's Sake, instead of being woven into the plotline. So there's definitely some dissatisfaction with the way the dark themes are handled. But making a moral judgment on the game and its creator just because you don't like the direction they went with it... hrmm.

[BRS swag]

On 12/8/2017 at 11:31 AM, mde2001 said:

If Reborn was a main series pokemon game, released by Gamefreak, I would absolutely agree with your friend. In many ways Reborn is far more graphic and violent than any main series pokemon game, whether or not they discuss similarly dark themes (albeit more vaguely). However, the difference that your friend is missing is the fact that a game uses the same set of characters as a more child like scenario doesn't mean that it is targeted at the same group of people. All of our download pages and the website in general make it pretty clear that this is a game targeted towards teens/ adults due to its more mature themes. Additionally, even if they had missed this and just downloaded the game, the train bombing scene sets the tone immediately, without being too graphic or scarring itself (as compared to something like the Orphanage or Corey's story arc). For this reason I don't see how Reborn can be seen as immoral, as in the end pokemon themselves are just images and programmed stats and therefore nothing about them can be corrupted for that. The concern would come if the fact that we were using a franchise that has a younger audience would cause them to see things that were too confronting for their age, but I don't see that as a potential occurrence due to the reasons I outlined above. Everyone wants to experience pokemon in their own way, and your friend is perfectly entitled to not enjoy the game, as to some people pokemon is all about lighthearted fun. However, the fact that it isn't their cup of tea shouldn't automatically relegate it to a disgrace to pokemon that doesn't deserve to exist, as in the end if they don't play it it has absolutely no affect on their lives or their enjoyment of more uplifting games. 

You are perfectly right. If Gamefreak made Reborn, nope, I'm not seeing it be even half as good as this is.

On 12/8/2017 at 3:46 AM, Athea Andrea said:

So, I brought this up in PMs with another forum member, but I kinda wanted to see what you folks as a whole thought.

 

A friend of mine essentially holds thusly: because Pokemon Reborn is based off Pokemon, a kids' franchise, but has very dark themes, inappropriate for children (murder, suicide, and terrorism mainly), she holds that Reborn is a perversion of Pokemon, and is thus immoral. 

 

I strongly disagree, in part because I'm a stubborn asshole, but in part because I believe that fan creations are products of the fans. Nintendo and their brand a franchise had an extremely heavy hand in inspiring the work (for obvious reasons), but aside from mechanics, characters, and a name, Reborn shares minimal ties with the Pokemon mainstream franchise. I think it's unfair to take all the time and hard work that went into making Reborn the game it is - with it's story, characters, setting, and unique aspects, both in mechanics and feel - and writing it off as just a "perverted" Pokemon game made by "sick" people who, in her mind, should have nothing to do with the Pokemon franchise at large. 

 

Honestly, I think it's a positive thing, that Reborn exists. It puts a new and infrequently seen spin on the world of Pokemon, does it with amazing craftsman ship on the part of the dev team, and shows that the fandom as a whole is aging and maturing. We're not the 10 and 11 year olds who first saw Ash get saved from a flock of Pidgeottos, and I think we should be able to express ourselves however we see fit, even if it's wildly different from the source.

 

I might be missing something, but I'm curious to see what you friends think about this.

There is no reason for Reborn to be immoral. It's just rough and exact. It's clearly stated to be for a grown-up audience, usually 18+. A game is an art, created by the developers not just to impress but to put one's ideologies and beliefs in picture. It's like a poem, except much bigger. Games are meant for fun, true, but games like this educate us about bitter truths and where our stand should be when we shall face such a situation. I'm not a really great listener, so, I learn from playing games like these. It makes us steel from outside but wax from inside, what exactly we should be. The violent scenes are shown realistically to make a lasting impression in us. I might forget about a lecture but never forget what Reborn has taught me. Everything in this world has a positive side. Relish it and life is beautiful. I myself can never come to disrespect anything such as this as this is the hardwork displayed by individuals just like us who thought, "Why not make a game which is realistic and not just like "Pikachu, use Thunderbolt"?". This is a masterpiece. If this is immoral, then, anyone using giga impact(or any such attack) on rattata is dark. The poor thing would die *pun intended*.

[Tapu Fufu]

On December 7, 2017 at 2:48 PM, Athea Andrea said:

But is it to the extent of bombings? And murder shown on screen? I know I'm playing devil's advocate a bit here, but I'm honestly fairly unfamiliar with the base games; where does that stuff happen?

In Diamond, Pearl, and Platinum, the blue-haired dude blows up Lake Valor, and apparently the blast was powerful enough that we could feel it all the way from Canalave City (pretty far from Lake Valor, if you look at it on the map) and emptied the lake. That's a pretty significant blast. 

[Sceptilespy]

On 12/8/2017 at 1:01 AM, The Swordsman said:

I think you are confused on what I am trying to argue. I am not trying to argue that the official games are as dark or darker than Reborn but that the darker elements that are expanded on by Reborn were already in the franchise. For example Team Galactic, which the goal of Team Meteor is based on, IS a terrorist organization and Chandlure destroying souls is a official part of Pokemon lore. The main Pokemon anime which you are referring to does not accurately represent the world of the games and is noticeably lighter in tone. While other media like the Pokemon Adventures manga have a darker tone. (and that Red was not perfectly healthy after being frozen and as the result of his injuries had to turn down the offer of being the new Virdian Gym Leader)  While on your comment about Neo Plasma, as seki108 has mentioned Ghetsis quite blatantly attacks the player. I also do not find a funny little kid's show to be a fair comparison. As the Pokemon games' tone is more similar to that of Digimon or the original Teen Titans.

Spoiler

 

I think you're the one who's confused. Like I've said, it's about presentation. Yeah, Team Galactic is a terrorist organization and yeah, had Cyrus succeeded, it would've resulted in a mass genocide of all life in the universe. But it's how it's presented. It's presented in a light hearted PG way that's not dark. The official Pokemon series is not dark on the surface. Now if you look deeper, then you'll find some creepy lore and stuff, but beyond that, it's just simply blatantly not dark. Ghetsis attacking the player isn't even dark. The "funny little kid's show" is a fair comparison since it's MUCH MUCH lighter then Pokemon, and people are still attacked in that. Ghetsis attacking the player is nothing new anyway. I'd like to remind you, when you're fighting teams in the game, they're also attacking you. The difference is, you have Pokemon to defend yourself with. People getting attacked by Pokemon is nothing new. Also, comparing the Pokemon games' tone to Teen Titans is just a blatant overstatement. That is the only way I can put without going in depth on how much darker Teen titans is then Pokemon, but that's for another discussion. 

 

My main point is that anything can be seen as dark if you look hard enough. Like with my kid's show example, that Train would've likely killed that dude but it didn't. Cyrus would've destroyed the Universe but he didn't. The potential consequences of stuff can be dark, but due to the light hearted way Pokemon presents it, it's not dark. Why? Because we, the player are in control. We know we can come back to our old save if we fail to beat Lysandre and he activates the ultimate weapon. We know we can go back to our old save if Ghetsis' Hydreigon eats us alive. We know we can't die, and nothing bad will happen to us. The difference is, in reborn, the story always has something bad happening to someone, but in the official series, you can control everything, and be a young child fighting off terrorist organizations with not one scratch. 

 

This will probably be my last reply. The discussion was interesting, but I feel like I'm repeating myself and just stretching the topic for no reason. Have a good rest of your life since I don't know what time of day it is for you. 

[Deuykos]

I have a friend who said something to the effect of not respecting anyone who made fangames who get money out of it, because of stuff like copyright. But then, he also says that Mickey Mouse should be in the public domain just because Walt Disney is dead, so...

Anyways, I don't think it's a perversion of Pokémon. Pokémon as they are in the game are unaffected. It just so happens that the medium of Pokémon is used to tell a darker story, where

Spoiler

Medicham are thrown into lava by Magmortar,

, and 

Spoiler

randos get eaten by Hydreigon.

There's also drug abuse, PTSD, urban housing and development, acknowledgement of LGBTQI, suicide, toxic relationships, evangelicals, family dynamics, and RAWR. But none of that really affects the brand of Pokémon as we know of it today; you're still collecting macguffins, stopping evil Teams from having their way, positing the tenants of friendship and synergy in spite of those who serve as cumbersome obstacles, and RAWR. You can't really "pervert" what Pokémon means until you're actively working to affront it, like the main focus being to separate humans and Pokémon for good. It would be like those anti-monster-girl stories that only focus on the negative, so the "solution" is to stop Monster Girls from existing because change is bad and no one's learned anything from Things Fall Apart.

 

So yeah, I may have some personal gripes with Reborn, but it's not really "perverting" Pokémon in any way... well, other than the various TaurosXMiltank jokes; those are kind of perverted.

[Deuykos]

On 12/11/2017 at 4:16 PM, GS BALL said:

You want to know what's truly immoral? Weaving lies and presenting kids with fairy tales, merry and blissful utopias and happy go lucky, as well as carefree protagonists. Life is hard at best and cruel at worst and it has lots of unimaginable horrors, not the slightest or the least of which is any theme touched by Reborn. It is borderline CRIMINAL to grow false expectations and wrong image about reality to an unsuspecting, gullible kid, sending them out there later only to have themselves crushed mercilessly, after being "sedated" and completely unprepared, from all those nice/shiny/ideal follies beforehand.

 

Reborn is the best pokemon game ever and i strongly believe, the most suitable one too; children included, if not primarily. But this is only a personal opinion.

Wow. I know a friend who's been sent from foster home to foster home, lost his sense of smell and part of his short term memory, and has dealt with people who've tried to rape him, kill him, or otherwise mutilate him, and he has expressed the following about what you just said:
"That's f*cking dumb."

And I'm inclined to agree. It's one thing to warn kids about the cruelties of the world, but it's also important to note that the world has hope in it. Otherwise, Reborn would just be some unapproachable callous with no redeeming qualities whatsoever, like Where the Dead Go to Die. To Kill a Mockingbird would be nowhere near as effective if it just ended at the results of the trial and the defendant's eventual fate. The Boy with the Striped Pajamas would be nowhere near as heartbreaking if the two friends ceased communication with each other and went on with their lives. Pokemon Reborn would be nowhere near as tolerable if

Spoiler

Adrienn hadn't stepped up to the plate and said "Hey, let's try and actually restore the town like the Champion said she would all those years ago!"

As it stands, there's a lot of flawed executions when it comes to Reborn's themes, morals, and plot development. It's far from being the best Pokemon game, and further from being a game that tackles dark subjects well. It's a game that challenges the player to raise Pokemon in an outside the box manner, and presents them with puzzles that take a bit to solve, but aside from that... it's just kind of okay.

[Commander]

1 hour ago, F14m3rz said:

It's far from being the best Pokemon game, and further from being a game that tackles dark subjects well. It's a game that challenges the player to raise Pokemon in an outside the box manner, and presents them with puzzles that take a bit to solve, but aside from that... it's just kind of okay.

Normally I'm not one to barge in and talk smack about people's opinions and I do try to criticize things a bit harshly, but I think we need to take a step back a minute and talk about the past. Come back to me when you've found a full scale RPG fan-game (60+ hours of playtime) that reaches the level of quality Reborn has done that predates 2013. Even if development stopped back at EVII, Reborn would have been one of the pinnacle Pokemon Fan-games. It stepped up to the plate and decided to be different and a black sheep at the time which is what a lot of people loved about it. The only thing I see immoral about it is that it may violate the original creator's ideals of what the Pokemon concept is (but GF stories and plots were complete jokes at the time so it's really not all that bad).

 

Now we go back to why Reborn is important. So back in the day, Pokemon fan creation were just hacks which is generally what you expect from fan content: lackluster story, forgettable characters, 8 gym badge system and champ, evil team after legendary, and godawful fakemon art. These were fun little time passers that took only a day or two to complete. Some were better than others. Most were made through a team working on individual areas. Raptor Ex was the first fan-game ever completed for Pokemon (using Essentials) and pioneered the idea of having all Pokemon available in a single game. It was really good at the time (and set a near impossible bar for a final boss in a Pokemon game to top) but certainly hasn't aged well at all.

 

Then came one of the most interesting ideas ever. In a community based around an online league challenge facing real people, a discussion came about turning the history of this community into a game. The administer of this league decided to give it a whirl and spent three weeks making a release based around this concept expecting to abandon it. She didn't and later it became known as the brutally hard game which even at my high school people said it was the only thing Pokemon they could actually play. This game left an impact on a lot of people (Jan, Suzerain, and myself at the very least). Immersion was also another big thing (Reborn is probably one of the few games I felt immersed into the game and terrified of that Garchomp).

 

Over time Reborn has lost some of it's features and niches, but that's just due to the quality of Fan-games rising (which Reborn theoretically should have aged into a really bad game being 5 years old in terms of story, design, and ideas). Back then, this game blew the competition out of the water with the only thing even being able to compare to it was Zeta & Omnicron. Reborn is certainly flawed and you could nitpick it apart to death, but even with the heavy limitations of a very small dev team (used to be just Ame) on a very restrictive system (RPGmaker can only do so much) it is safe for me to say this:

 

Pokemon Reborn is one of the best Pokemon Games ever made if not the best one. Besides, videos games are about enjoyment over perfection anyways.

[Timber Dragon]

'Immoral' is hardly the term I would use here, but I totally get why a game like Reborn would leave a bad taste in the mouth of someone who normally associates Pokemon with the optimistic family-friendly tone it's supposed to have. A darker Pokemon setting is one thing, but on-screen suicides, terrorists, cults, and the like is kiiiiinda not really what you'd expect out of a Pokemon game. Taking something so normally nice and charming and then doing, well, what Reborn does, can be seen as a slap in the face of what Pokemon is supposed to stand for. I get it.

 

That said, I've read fanfiction that's over twice as brutal as anything Reborn has thrown at us. Darker and edgier Pokemon fanworks are common. There are a lot of elements in Pokemon's setting that can be taken in a much darker perspective if you apply a dose or realism or cynicism. Part of the fun of fanworks like Reborn is taking Pokemon's existing elements and really pushing them.

 

But Reborn has consistently kept a sense of humor and eventually optimism -- you're trying to make the city a better place, and you start to do a pretty good job of it. That's why I consider the game dark, but not edgy. ... Well, the early game could get pretty edgy, but not even a minute after you're nearly killed by the terrorist attack in the opening, you're given a "Hey, you're challenging the league, right? Neato!"

[Deuykos]

3 minutes ago, Commander said:

Come back to me when you've found a full scale RPG fan-game (60+ hours of playtime) that reaches the level of quality Reborn has done that predates 2013.

Shrink 'High.

 

36 minutes ago, Commander said:

(but GF stories and plots were complete jokes at the time so it's really not all that bad).

Spoiler

Lest we forget the awe-inspiring story of Saphira, and how she was abused as a child by an unhinged doctor, and Team Meteor's antics gives her an outlet to creatively express herself like she's straight out of a Darkern Edgier fanfic. Pure genius, never been done before, 10/10!

All Gamefreak had at the time was some boring story about a Grovyle, time travel, and sacrificing yourself for the greater good in spite of past allegiances. Pure tripe!

 

30 minutes ago, Commander said:

lackluster story

You mean like

Spoiler

Cal deciding to listen to exactly what Solaris tells him to, despite the fact that he apparently already sabotaged the plan to have Pyrous Mountain erupt?

 

32 minutes ago, Commander said:

forgettable characters

I suppose you're right; a girl cutting through Team Meteor Grunts like it's Dynasty Warriors is pretty hard to forget.

 

34 minutes ago, Commander said:

8 gym badge system

Yup, now it's 18, and there's more whenever someone arbitrarily meets their end because they just so happen to forget to give you a badge beforehand.

 

41 minutes ago, Commander said:

evil team after legendary,

Um... what? The evil teams get involved before the legendary. Like, all the time. And Reborn is no exception.

 

9 minutes ago, Commander said:

Pokemon Reborn is one of the best Pokemon Games ever made if not the best one.

So because the team that made it is small, and they made it off of RPGMaker... that makes it one of the best Pokemon games of all time? There must be a pretty low bar for Pokemon games nowadays. I mean, don't get me wrong, there are some enjoyable aspects of the game. But I have to admit...

Spoiler

It's not very enjoyable to see the protagonist just stand there while a guy jumps off a bridge, or crazy fanfiction-worthy chicks murder a bunch of cannon fodder because their lives were kinda sad.

Spoiler

It's not very enjoyable to notice how the head of the Reborn Restoration Project (and the Champion, as it just so happens) to have so little impact on the Region that it takes some random Gym Leader from years ago to pick up her slack and get things done (it doesn't help that she can't tell when 2 Gym Leaders and 2 Elite Four members are being tortured by a Psychologist).

Spoiler

And it's not very enjoyable when the villains are more enjoyable to learn about and see develop than the "heroes".

 

I'm sorry to tell you, but there's a fan game (a hack, in fact) that's actually done what Reborn's accomplished masterfully. It may not be as big, but the themes are dark, it expands on the already existing lore, there's a morality system, and it's also done by at least one person (I do know the person who created it needed help with it, at least). Pokemon FireRed: Rocket Edition. You can choose whether or not to steal from trainers, the trainers you can steal from is based on your progression in the main campaign, your decisions have a bigger effect on what's accessible to you, and the overarching plot never feels too contrived or arbitrary (there's just enough ham that I can suspend my disbelief).

 

Like I said before, Reborn is good, but it's not the best.

[Commander]

I see where we hold different values. I was mostly curious to see what game/games you'd list and consider trying out but none of them really suit my tastes. Reborn is actually half the reason I still even follow Pokemon so of course I'd show some bias, but I'd honestly say the same thing now as I did before if it was my first time playing the game. But I'm not really here to fight over the goods and bads every game and what one does to outrank the other. Pokemon Insurgence is one of the best games. I'm certainly not a big fan of it and probably won't ever play, but I'm not going to outright say it's not one of the best when it really is. That'd just make me look ignorant. Zeta and Omnicron also were the best fangame at one point even if I despised those game.

 

This topic is about whether or not Reborn is immoral. And yes, I do kind of see how it is immoral, but simply for younger players which this game was not designed for at all. Dark themes in children's games aren't new so what Reborn does for an age range of teenagers to young adults really fits. Pokemon Colosseum didn't tarnish the Pokemon franchise (hell, it warranted a sequel) so I don't see how Reborn being darker than the norm shouldn't be allowed or be considered a bad thing. Still tamer than Snakewood.

[Zarc]

11 minutes ago, Commander said:

I do kind of see how it is immoral, but simply for younger players which this game was not designed for at all

This.

 

 

Also i kinda agree with @F14m3rz on the fact i'm , too , expecting a game where you can make decisions and those will impact the story after , similar to desolation but more important. But also this requier a lot of things to make , concerning the multiple alternatives stories you can have with it. 

 

But it doesn't change my mind : to me , reborn is the best pokemon fangame right now. Again , just my opinion.

[Deuykos]

19 minutes ago, Commander said:

I see where we hold different values. I was mostly curious to see what game/games you'd list and consider trying out but none of them really suit my tastes.

Trust me, Rocket Edition gets a lot better after you play it for a bit.

 

Anyways, yeah, I don't think Reborn's really immoral either. I'd say it's a bit immature to label it as such merely for tackling the issues rather than judging the quality of said tackling to begin with. While I myself don't think they handle themes and likable characters especially well (see my noted distaste for Saphira's execution as a character above), I don't think it's enough to forever taint the image of Pokemon forevermore (especially considering a popular theory about Zinnia from Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire is that she's a teen mom whose kid [Aster] is dead).

 

12 minutes ago, Zarc said:

i'm , too , expecting a game where you can make decisions and those will impact the story after , similar to desolation but more important.

I mean more in the sense that, in some instances, there are moments in Reborn that seem easily preventable. For example,

Spoiler

In the WTC, Titania's considerably weakened from being trapped there for who knows how long, and is also starving. So, if given the choice, I think the player should be able to choose whether or not to stop Titania from killing all these grunts in the way. Especially since, you know, there's literally no point in doing so aside from "Darkern Edgier", since they've been instructed by Taka to just let them through whilst providing a weak resistance.

It's just these little things that I can't change no matter what, that actually have me sympathize with the villains a bit more (I felt worse over the nameless Grunts' deaths than Corey, Kiki, or even Ame's deaths ever made me feel, to be honest). It almost makes me wonder what a "Join Team Meteor" option would be like; rising through the ranks, connecting with all the grunts and admins and joining up with all the factions as a sort of freelancer. Maybe I could even show up Fern every now and again, or play a round of Call of Shooting with Blake and declare: "It may be dumb, but it's pretty fun to play". It's never going to happen, I just thought it was a neat thought.

[Zarc]

This would be so funny an alternative reborn story when you join team meteor  

 

 

ep 17 spoiler : 

 

Spoiler

When titania asked us if Lin and us were working together , imagine press " yes " option ? Bam , let's war.

 

[Wolfox]

1 hour ago, Commander said:

Pokemon Insurgence is one of the best games.

 

I won't say it's not, but once you find the flaws that that game has... it drops greatly. between bugs and the devs there it really falls short on Reborn without even a doubt. and the fact that Insurgence is more of a Dark Rising way of hard than actually being hard.

40 minutes ago, F14m3rz said:

I mean more in the sense that, in some instances, there are moments in Reborn that seem easily preventable. For example,

  Reveal hidden contents

In the WTC, Titania's considerably weakened from being trapped there for who knows how long, and is also starving. So, if given the choice, I think the player should be able to choose whether or not to stop Titania from killing all these grunts in the way. Especially since, you know, there's literally no point in doing so aside from "Darkern Edgier", since they've been instructed by Taka to just let them through whilst providing a weak resistance.

 

1

So, you're expecting the player character to stop a woman who can kill that many grunts on her own while being weakened without said woman later returning the favor to you? And, even more so, expecting to be able to stop her from killing those grunts while she's finding the woman she has lived with for so long (even if she wasn't in love with Amaria, there is no single way that the bond Titania has with her not stronger than Mega Rayquaza at some point). It would most likely result in that Aegislash being pointed at the player. Also, I'm assuming Fire Red: Rocket Edition plays of the canon games when it comes to story. This would imply that that creator had an advantage as Ame has based most of the characters and story on the old Reborn League and had little to work with all in all.

[Commander]

2 minutes ago, Wolfox said:

I won't say it's not, but once you find the flaws that that game has... it drops greatly. between bugs and the devs there it really falls short on Reborn without even a doubt. and the fact that Insurgence is more of a Dark Rising way of hard than actually being hard.

Oh one of the best does not necessarily mean it's good. There's just a lot of things that need to be categorized in order to determine how the games rank. Pokemon Insurgence is still above the quality of most hacks/fan-games regardless. The quality level has been rising though which is a good sign.

9 minutes ago, Wolfox said:

So, you're expecting the player character to stop a woman who can kill that many grunts on her own while being weakened without said woman later returning the favor to you? And, even more so, expecting to be able to stop her from killing those grunts while she's finding the woman she has lived with for so long (even if she wasn't in love with Amaria, there is no single way that the bond Titania has with her not stronger than Mega Rayquaza at some point). It would most likely result in that Aegislash being pointed at the player. Also, I'm assuming Fire Red: Rocket Edition plays of the canon games when it comes to story. This would imply that that creator had an advantage as Ame has based most of the characters and story on the old Reborn League and had little to work with all in all.

Actually, that'd be more of a disadvantage instead of an advantage. Kanto is one of the ugliest mapped areas I've ever seen (and I liked Gen I) on top of being very barebone. The only advantage would be playing on nostalgia in that sense which well...everyone does and it blinds people of their thoughts. Gamefreak runs on the idea for money so I'm not afraid to put it blunt. It's also limited to Gen III unless they script in the physical/special split and/or mons beyond the third generation. Hacks also have a very limited amount of space and resources which they cannot go beyond which is often why they are very short and not all that complex. There's a reason I don't play hacks (and yes, I do know how to make one) as the limitations really...become apparent. I can't talk much about the story as one rides along the idea of fan-fiction and using characters from the official games and the other is based on characters who are/are not OCs of Ame's which has lead to character bloat issues. Basically Ame gave the initial design and idea to people to RP as which lead to those people changing who those character were over time (such as Shelly eventually turning shy due to Cal lashing out on her).

 

I can say all of this without even touching the game and looking at it for 5 minutes. If I could rip both Reborn and Rejuvenation to shreds, this would be a cakewalk to examine and point everything wrong with it and determine if it really is the best Pokemon game ever. Player backsprite is also lazily made. Sure the dialogue may be great, but a good story is the least important part of a game. I'm not really trying to call you out on this Wolfox but I disagree with what you said being an advantage. Also, I don't know if this Rocket Edition hack is either good or bad so it honestly could be either. (Hell, I've had fun with games hated by most people or considered really bad).

 

Also, now I want someone to make a Hack called Team Skull edition where you play as Guzma acting like a Hooligan all across the world

[Wolfox]

5 minutes ago, Commander said:

Oh one of the best does not necessarily mean it's good. There's just a lot of things that need to be categorized in order to determine how the games rank. Pokemon Insurgence is still above the quality of most hacks/fan-games regardless. The quality level has been rising though which is a good sign.

Actually, that'd be more of a disadvantage instead of an advantage. Kanto is one of the ugliest mapped areas I've ever seen (and I liked Gen I) on top of being very barebone. The only advantage would be playing on nostalgia in that sense which well...everyone does and it blinds people of their thoughts. Gamefreak runs on the idea for money so I'm not afraid to put it blunt. It's also limited to Gen III unless they script in the physical/special split and/or mons beyond the third generation. Hacks also have a very limited amount of space and resources which they cannot go beyond which is often why they are very short and not all that complex. There's a reason I don't play hacks (and yes, I do know how to make one) as the limitations really...become apparent. I can't talk much about the story as one rides along the idea of fan-fiction and using characters from the official games and the other is based on characters who are/are not OCs of Ame's which has lead to character bloat issues. Basically Ame gave the initial design and idea to people to RP as which lead to those people changing who those character were over time (such as Shelly eventually turning shy due to Cal lashing out on her).

 

I can say all of this without even touching the game and looking at it for 5 minutes. If I could rip both Reborn and Rejuvenation to shreds, this would be a cakewalk to examine and point everything wrong with it and determine if it really is the best Pokemon game ever. Player backsprite is also lazily made. Sure the dialogue may be great, but a good story is the least important part of a game. I'm not really trying to call you out on this Wolfox but I disagree with what you said being an advantage. Also, I don't know if this Rocket Edition hack is either good or bad so it honestly could be either. (Hell, I've had fun with games hated by most people or considered really bad).

 

Also, now I want someone to make a Hack called Team Skull edition where you play as Guzma acting like a Hooligan all across the world

 

The main thing I meant with advantage is that if they based it of the gen 1 story and canon characters they have the advantage since they have something to build it off, while Ame has to create everything from scratch

[BRS swag]

Best part of the game is that it has so much demand and discussions, also so much about the real experiences, even when it is incomplete. Let's see how it'll be by 2020 or something. I guess it'll become a perfect ending in the end coz every game must end properly to end, unless a sequel is thought of as in the Dark Rising series. It'll become bright and complete rather than just dark in the end.

[Deuykos]

9 hours ago, Wolfox said:

So, you're expecting the player character to stop a woman who can kill that many grunts on her own while being weakened without said woman later returning the favor to you?

Yeah. The only reason she's able to kill them in the first place is by wielding Aegislash. If you had a Pokemon that's faster than it like, say, a Darmanitan, and had it use Flare Blitz, and it's strong enough to faint it in one hit, Titania has surprisingly little in the way of killing people. All she'd really have left is flailing angrily, and that'd just tire her out even more.

 

9 hours ago, Wolfox said:

And, even more so, expecting to be able to stop her from killing those grunts while she's finding the woman she has lived with for so long (even if she wasn't in love with Amaria, there is no single way that the bond Titania has with her not stronger than Mega Rayquaza at some point).

First off, the only thing holding that relationship together is mutual indecision. Secondly, Rayquaza doesn't Mega Evolve through a bond, it Mega Evolves using a special organ it contains called the Mikado Organ, which converts the meteors it eats into an energy similar to Infinite Energy (the energy needed to use Mega Evolution in the first place), which it accumulates in such a fashion that Rayquaza is able to Mega Evolve at will (as long as it knows Dragon Ascent, that is).

 

9 hours ago, Wolfox said:

It would most likely result in that Aegislash being pointed at the player.

Again, fast Darmanitan. Flare Blitz, fainted Aegislash, flailing angrily, Blue Moon Ice Cream to shut her up.

 

8 hours ago, Commander said:

The only advantage would be playing on nostalgia in that sense which well...everyone does and it blinds people of their thoughts.

That's not necessarily a bad thing, especially when the intent of the game is to present things that the player is already familiar with, and then subvert their expectations by displaying it in an entirely different context.

 

9 hours ago, Commander said:

Gamefreak runs on the idea for money so I'm not afraid to put it blunt.

I'l just put this here, then. People can receive money for the games that they create, but that doesn't mean they operate solely on it. Sometimes, it's done out of the love of the series.

 

8 hours ago, Commander said:

It's also limited to Gen III unless they script in the physical/special split and/or mons beyond the third generation.

 

It does go beyond the third generation. The mons themselves are restricted to Kanto (as of now), but you've still got the moves, the addition of the Fairy typing, and the Physical/Special Split. Also, you can catch Mew, and it's by using one of the biggest urban legends surrounding the Pokemon.

 

8 hours ago, Commander said:

Sure the dialogue may be great, but a good story is the least important part of a game.

No... that's definitely not the case. In most cases (especially with RPGs), it's because of a good story that a game gets so much attention and love from fans in the first place. Otherwise, Monster Girl Quest wouldn't have the following it has now.

 

9 hours ago, Commander said:

Also, now I want someone to make a Hack called Team Skull edition where you play as Guzma acting like a Hooligan all across the world

[Wolfox]

2 minutes ago, F14m3rz said:

First off, the only thing holding that relationship together is mutual indecision. Secondly, Rayquaza doesn't Mega Evolve through a bond, it Mega Evolves using a special organ it contains called the Mikado Organ, which converts the meteors it eats into an energy similar to Infinite Energy (the energy needed to use Mega Evolution in the first place), which it accumulates in such a fashion that Rayquaza is able to Mega Evolve at will (as long as it knows Dragon Ascent, that is).

 

"Bond stronger that A mega rayquaza" I have never once stated Rayquaza mega evolves by a bond, did I? I said that the bond between Amaria and Titania would be at least as strong as a mega rayquaza. not the bond you need to mega evolve it, the pokémon itself. READ BEFORE POSTING

2 minutes ago, F14m3rz said:

Yeah. The only reason she's able to kill them in the first place is by wielding Aegislash. If you had a Pokemon that's faster than it like, say, a Darmanitan, and had it use Flare Blitz, and it's strong enough to faint it in one hit, Titania has surprisingly little in the way of killing people. All she'd really have left is flailing angrily, and that'd just tire her out even more.

 

Yeah, she is WIELDING the Pokémon. So I don't think Aegislash really makes the decision on how fast she can slice you up with it.

2 minutes ago, F14m3rz said:

Again, fast Darmanitan. Flare Blitz, fainted Aegislash, flailing angrily, Blue Moon Ice Cream to shut her up.

 

because that will really help when the woman in swinging the sword around. seeing as you most likely have to be next to her to be able to stop her. meaning that before you can get that darmanitan out, assuming every player has one that is, she can already have your head clean off.

[Deuykos]

3 minutes ago, Wolfox said:

READ BEFORE POSTING

Okay. Titania and Amaria's bond is not stronger than a Mega Rayquaza. Mega Rayquaza has a base stat total of 780, and an ability that not only negates the weakness of Flying Types, but also cancels out all weather except when Desolate Land or Primordial Sea is sent out afterwards. Meanwhile,

Spoiler

Titania's only doing this because she feels guilted into being Amaria's girlfriend due to her not wanting the latter to kill herself,

and

Spoiler

Amaria seems to know this, and isn't willing to break it off because of her apathy towards life and the world around her.

 You just need to move the load-bearing brick just so, and it topples like it was made of twigs.

 

1 minute ago, Wolfox said:

because that will really help when the woman in swinging the sword around.

Yeah. Because last I checked, a Darmanitan is faster than some random chick waving a sword around. It's like, in a contest of power, between a human waving a sword into someone's face, and a fire ape that's markedly faster than your average human... the fire ape would come out on top.

 

19 minutes ago, Wolfox said:

seeing as you most likely have to be next to her to be able to stop her.

Good point, considering I'm behind her in every case, and she thinks I'm on her side anyway, surprising her with a Darmanitan to the face would be no issue. One fainted Pokemon later, and no grunts are killed for the sake of Darkern Edgier, and she gets a Blue Moon Ice Cream for her troubles.

 

20 minutes ago, Wolfox said:

meaning that before you can get that darmanitan out, assuming every player has one that is, she can already have your head clean off.

Doesn't need to be a Darmanitan, just needs to be a Pokemon the player especially likes. Heck, I have an Imposter Ditto, so I could just copy the Aegislash, and King's Shield her every time she tries it.

[NickCrash]

So... immoral huh? That was the topic or did I assume wrong?

 

Yeah nah. No it's not. 

Well, it kinda is, since capturing little animals into tiny prison balls and forcing them to battle their brothers and sisters is kinda bad, yes? 

Then again, methinks this is a major part of the games since Kanto. What do you mean that's perfectly fine? 

Certainly the real world does not have such plots of world domination by an evil team, further motivated by religion. wait!

Okay okay, so you make a bond, and friendship, and challenge the league... yeh that makes up for it. It's not that somebody mutilated a Slowpoke to sell as a delicacy. 

Of course we eat meat all the time, so we're cool? I guess we're cool. 

They removed the slots though, so... we're not cool. I want to spend my hard earned heritage to black jack and hookers dammit!

I reckon I should make my own game with those two elements. hidden reference

 

 

Alright, I've had my fun.

Reborn and the canon pokemon games don't have the same target audience. In order to appeal to the more mature fans who always wished for a challenge, Reborn provides a darker theme, whilst trying not to be too edgy. All of that has already been mentioned above, so it makes no sense to reiterate. However it is important to distinguish between personal expectations and morality. As assumed before, people have a certain way to look at the franchise and Reborn bursts that bubble. it's a depiction of a harsh place to live in, similar to a few real cities. It depicts the underworld of pokemon and that's ok. That's what its aim was. If it's not your cup of tea, you may try something else. But trying to justify your own beliefs by branding the game as 'immoral' is denying your own immaturity. The player is a mere observer in most actions, but even if we were forced to participate in said immoral deeds, there is no harm done, since in-universe it makes sense. We traveled to a region deprived of all class, lived as a hobo for quite a while, and fought against an evil Team from the very beginning, given they tried to kill us before we even started. We still pursue the same goals canon protagonists do, exploit the mechanics of magical animal fights, and forced to take a side fighting against the 'bad guys'.

In my opinion, it's perfecty okay that the game makes you question the behavior of the 'good characters'. They even call you out on it when Charlotte points out that the Meteors are just on the other side and fight for their own ideals. Some character's behaviors are either dumb or extreme, but since it's a fantasy universe, we can allow such people to exist and have pivotal roles in our games for the sake of story progression. Their dialogue has been rewritten and improvements can be made, but that should not be the focus. The game has a lot story-wise, and it does not crumble upon its own weight. But in order to close the debate, the drawbacks of the game do not involve the moral compass the protagonist holds. There are other games with darker themes that force the hero to commit attrocious crimes, yet they don't get such criticism because the source material either does not exist or is about the same. In my opinion, this very transformation is the main 'selling' point of the game.

 

 

PS: The Patreon page is a recent addition. The game was not made to make profit, therefore such allegations are baseless.