Yu-Gi-Oh Discussion Thread

[SJMistery 0]

Don't worry, I won't go roast you because you are right on what you said, it's just that you didn't understand well what I meant with  rules 2 and 4:

I mean with rule 2: Being able to consistently eliminate skill as a factor on the game, simply by repeteadly using a luck-based attack or strategy (AKA Swagger Kefki or Double Team) until you luck out. A good example of what I mean and I wish programmers made sure to code against, is this:

 

Concretely, what happened on 7:55 Got a 2 stock advantage, yet the Greninja looses simply because his opponent got incredibly lucky.

 

And, who has not lost a game simply because the tank you sent to receive around 5% damage from an Ice Beam got frozen?

In a card game, of course there must be an inherent luck factor as the cards are supposed to be shuffled around by your opponent precisely to prevent cheating. But if, let's say, a card that gave you insta-win was allowed (and it used to be many, the most well known being Last Turn), the game would be reduced to who draws it first.

 

What I mean, is that randomness, while unavoidable even on apparently deterministic games like chess (you will never know if the opponent will miss a mate, or if he overlook a piece and that attack he is decimating you could have been stopped, or even how will he open up the game), it should be limited enough to allow both players at least a decent way to control it.

 

 

The fourth point was confusing, I admit: What i mean is that the player at least SHOULD be able to have room to cover for any relevant threat. In other words, the game should never be won or lost from the very beggining, simply because you didn't have room to include an answer to every common threat. I am the first that likes to see unexpected threats or even surprise-reliant strategies, but let's say, loosing to Medicham Mega simply because including a Gengar meant you have to remove Keldeo and loose to dragon dance Mega Tyranitar instead, that sucks.

 

 

I agree with stalling not always being bad, in many games, it IS the best way to win, if you have a good lead, or if all that stops you from winning is the enemy Quagsire that walls you, but has only 36 PP on his attacks, while you have 60 to spare.

What I mean, is intentionally drawing the game longer and longer for the sake of making it longer, in hope the opponent will eventually misplay. The most obvious analogue is the now-banned card that reset the entire game. As long as you keep drawing it, nobody can win, allowing you to try again and again until you get a favorable enough position that your opponent won't be able to reset.

 

And thanks to you both. It's been a while since I got a GOOD competive discussion outside of the Smash forums

[FairFamily 197]

Well, in yugioh a lot of cards are not luck based. So the majortiy of luck comes from the order of your deck. So inorder to limit the luck we have consistensy cards: cards that search, draw, send to the graveyard, special summon from the deck,... . However consistensy comes with a downside: linearity. Because you have so many cards that specifically add other cards, the different amount of cards that change the game state lowers and the possible plays are lowered as well. This means that the amount of game states you can deal with in a deck lowers. So if a deck can consistensely push out a game state another deck can't deal with then the outcome is as good as decided based on the matchup. So if the deck can't deal with that game state then they need to add cards to deal with that game state. So what does it remove? Cards that deal with other game states, kinda useless. Consistensy cards? Well then you are going to let matchups more decided with luck. So in order to deal with more matchups a player has to rely more on luck. That's why the most consitent decks tend to not being able to deal with a lot of game states and the most versitale decks tend to be a lot more inconstent/luck based. That's why I say the two are incompatible, you either can't deal with a lot of situations or you rely on luck to win your games.

That's also why a lot of games keep some random gamechangers in their game like crits or random effects, to still give some exitement when a "hopeless situation" occurs. They can then hope on that random effect. Sucks when it costs you games, but it will aso win you games and will keep even some situations a lot more exiting. 

 

For stalling. First you have strange definition, most people associate stalling with effects that renders the opposing plays useless while slowly going for your own wincon.  Second well honestly I would not consider that a problematic strategy, you are merely testing your opponents concentration. That's why I actually don't surrender unless I know that they are in a situation they plausably can't misplay in. With the banned card you mean:http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Fiber_Jar? Well outside being an absolutely boring card that hinders tournaments, this card is also highly abusable. Do remember that it does not say banished and it gives the player a turn one with no battle phase restriction. 

[SJMistery 0]

Yup, I mean that card. And the problem is that sometimes, people keeps drawing the games longer and longer even when it's absolutely clear they will loose just for the sake of boring the opponent and try if they will eventually have to go out and ragequit, or if the game is timed, try to wait to see if they can get their opponent to get distracted and win by a timeout even when they can clearly finish you off in a few turns, something that actually was common in chess until it was outlawed. THAT is what I mean by stalling.

[Lits 0]

My Dinosaur Replays uploaded friday morning, Here I use 2 different engines, a lvl 8 and the regular one

[FairFamily 197]

Cool it has more wyrms then expected, so maybe not really a dinosaur deck rather than a wyrm deck. 

[nepeta100 57]

apparently there thereis a rumor going around that the life points are being changed to 12000 and you cant pendulum summon on the first turn

[FairFamily 197]

This is so not going to happen, it changes so much things. The choas of the new life point changes will be massive, new banlists, some cards become stronger, some cards become weaker, some decks become stronger, some decks become weaker,... . The pendulum rule is like it's written by a player who knows nothing of the game but has heard that pendulum was broken (which it isn't). No understanding of the game whatsoever. Also how is konami ever going to sell pendulum evolution in the TCG with those rules? A battle damage, pendulum based deck without non pendulum reliable turn one plays. Also OCG is plagued by zoodiacs not pendulum so the timing of this change is incredible off. I don't get how anybody can believe it.

This is just the icing on the cake.

 

[nepeta100 57]

yeah its pretty dumb on a another topic it seems yugioh seems to be picking up again in some ways with both duel links and legacy I'm seeing content creators like shadypenguinn creating yugioh videos and this makes me really happy

[BlueMoonIceCream 9]

You know what's funny, I bought 2 ancient leaf before this for a deck I refuse to play anymore because it was not fun for anyone involved, I may just take advantage of this

[FairFamily 197]

Konami forcing you to buy link monsters by nerfing extra deck summons RIP so many decks. It also forces putting the cards in the already tight extra deck. Well the mechanic sounds convoluted,  seneth switche could be cool.

So for pendulum summoning, they cost spell and trap zones, meh, it could be worse. It's not that pendulum decks could run many spells an traps anyway.  Also since techinically pendulum monsters are main deck monsters (no matter their location) I think pendulum summon from the extra deck can still be done without a link monster.

[Maelstrom 312]

Hey nerds. Enjoy.

 

 

[FairFamily 197]

Welp looks I was wrong pendulum is as of this moment dead. And If you think summoning from the hand will save then I will inform you that almost every pendulum deck was based around getting your pedulum cards in the extra deck as a way of advantage. Well any chance of me buying the pendulum magicians at some point have gone down the drain.

[nepeta100 57]

also in the spirit of rip pendulum a structure deck in the ocg that had some key pendulum based cards is being turned into a set in america

[FairFamily 197]

For those who dod not follow reddit but still play online.

For heart and home, down with fusion.

[nepeta100 57]

this thread needs more love that it used to have really bummed that I missed that event fairfamily

 

I know its that not competive but I'm just been love with spiral phantom recently.

[FairFamily 197]

Well with duel links taking over and the new anime being moved to another thread, it's not hard for this to decline. Spiral phantom huh, yeah I get the appeal but it's not my style. I'm trying to get trickstars , which are released in the ocg for links, to work in the current rules on ygopro with varying amounts of success. I'm experimenting with cyber dragons.

[BlueMoonIceCream 9]

Trickstar's though! I've splashed them into one of my decks and it became so much better it's ridiculous, I love that archetype, it gives me a lot more options to work with. When are we getting them? ;~;

[FairFamily 197]

9 hours ago, BlueMoonIceCream said:

Trickstar's though! I've splashed them into one of my decks and it became so much better it's ridiculous, I love that archetype, it gives me a lot more options to work with. When are we getting them? ;~;

Normally 4 of august if I recall.

 

I do love how generic these effects are. I mean so much options. Right now my favorite seems to revolve around a synchro foccused varaint.

[Zarc 1571]

duel link is a good game ? 

[FairFamily 197]

It is a decent game and proably will be the closest what yu gi oh will ever be to the anime (especially since the anime takes over the duel links rules with the speed duels). It helps pander nostalgia and gives use to cards that would never be viable into todays format. I hope it becomes a passage way to trditional yugioh but that might be hoping too much.

[Zarc 1571]

ok , i'll dl it. 

[BlueMoonIceCream 9]

It's also neat because there are a lot of cards I didn't know existed and I'm just like "Whhhhhhhat is this? o-o"

Also literally you can search trickstars so easy it's not even funny, terraform lightstage, lightstage searches candina, candina searches GODDAMN EVERYTHING including reincarnation which are the only trickstars I've touched at the moment because I'm the scum of the earth who plays a banishment deck that thrives off of everything involved in that, using candina gives me a use for an extra deck, I can go into rank 4's so easily with her, shame about norden though..

[FairFamily 197]

Well for what you want the 3 trickstars card you use are fine. The other monster are good/fantastic as well. Candina not only searches everything if you choose to add a monster it is very likely you can even play that monster during that turn. Lycorissa lets you bounce your own trickstars to the hand (always usefull) and lily bell adds trickstars to the hand from your grave on top of that sweet summoning condition. 

 

But Norden's dead was justified. The card was busted .

[BlueMoonIceCream 9]

What are you talking about norden was completely fair and balanced

[FairFamily 197]

1 minute ago, BlueMoonIceCream said:

What are you talking about norden was completely fair and balanced

I'm not even sure if it is sarcasm or not.