Server Permissions

[Amethyst]

Recently among the auth we've been talking about access and usage of certain commands on the Showdown Server. However, after the most recent discussion we saw it fit to leave the decision to you, the users most impacted by them.

We're considering access to three commands: /kick, /redirect, and /warn.

• /kick is a command that removes a person from the room. With /setkick, it can display silly or cool custom messages for each auth. Because the user can rejoin immediately, it has no disciplinary use, and with /setkick has been left strictly as a command for auth to have fun with, provided it is not abused.
• /redirect sends a user from their current room into a new one. It is mostly used to send a player to a place where their conversation is more appropriate. They can still rejoin the old room at any time.
• /warn displays a pop up with all of showdown's rules and a message from the auth about what they did wrong. It's an effective tool in helping new users learn the expectations of the community.

/kick is in question to be removed outright. The other two are potentially being revoked from driver status (%). Drivers on Reborn are different from other servers, in that they are staff, but they are not expected to moderate the server, and have very few tools to do so (in fact, just redirect and warn). They mostly have the rank for status and access to the staff room.

Below are the arguments for each option of access of each command:

/kick

• All auth: Since kick has no disciplinary application, there's no harm in letting people play around with it. Users should understand it's not an actual punishment, just good fun. Case handlers exist to deal with mods who abuse the privelege, so the risk of expanding it so all auth can use it is negligible, and serves to put them on more equal footing.
• @ and higher: The status quo. Abuse cases exist for mods, but there's no reason to increase the risk of abuse by expanding access to the command.
• Remove /kick: Fun at others' expense isn't good fun. It's not fair to users if they can be kicked even if it just for laughs, with no permanent consequence, and they could report it as abuse. It's better just to remove the option so that there's no problems in the first place.

/redirect

• Yes: Yes, drivers should keep redirect, as they already have it. There's no harm in allowing them to help out with server moderation with something non-serious like redirect.
• No: No, drivers should not keep redirect. It's effectively the same as /kick, and it's not their place to moderate the server.

/warn

• Yes: Yes, drivers should keep warn, as they already have it. There's no harm in allowing them to help out with server moderation by informing others of the rules with /warn.
• No: No, drivers should not keep warn. Drivers' role is not to enforce server moderation, so there's no need for them to use this.

This poll will remain open for one week.

[Hexagoen]

Well, ame you said it yourself: drivers are auth. It is perfectly logical for them to have these commands lol. Even if they aren't Auth of the server itself, they are mature enough (I hope) to use these commands for the betterment of the community!

Just my two cents in on this situation

Edited October 14, 2015 by Sinikuro013

[Voctrode]

[Neo]

[Shanco]

Although I'm somewhat neutral on server stuff, something just doesn't sit well with me in granting Drivers the permission to still redirect and warn.

Drivers are auth in other places that serve as high ambassadors, so to speak, on the server. As for their role in server moderation, being a guide for new members is what they should be doing; they should probably even be among the first to welcome new members to the server alongside our more emphatic veterans and guide them along the "path", whatever that path is.

However, that is IMO where their moderative authority should end. We've got more than enough higher auth on to take care of that stuff at all times of the day.

• /kick and /redirect are essentially the same; if one user removal power is removed from Drivers then the other should be as well.
• /warn would be alright, as it would help Drivers fulfill their perceived roles on the server as role models for the rest of the community.

TL;DR: Take away /kick and /redirect from Drivers, keep /warn unless for some strange reason an abuse case pops up.

[Darvan Korematsu]

Le authority will be le authority. If they are there to enforce the rules, give them the tools necessary to do it. It's almost like a national hierarchy of sorts in terms of organization and power. Where people like Ikaru are Reborn's equivalent to the FBI agents, the Drivers are close to like local cops. As long as they are an authority figure, they gotta do their job.

[Amethyst]

funny you say that when one of those is locked and the other banned.

[Chevaleresse]

In case you didn't catch it in the OP: /kick isn't really intended as a disciplinary command at the moment. It's basically a way for auth to fool around, since it has little use in actually enforcing the rules.

[Will]

I feel /kick should absolutely be disciplinary. I get that in the case of it being used as such, whoever could be causing the issues could just immediately rejoin afterwards, but maybe it should be looked into adding a delay period along with kicks for x hours or days or such. Maybe if this kind of thing were changed to /tempban, it'd be better suited, but if /kick is currently intended to be a just-for-fun command, then I feel it should probably go.

[Wes]

I feel /kick should absolutely be disciplinary. I get that in the case of it being used as such, whoever could be causing the issues could just immediately rejoin afterwards, but maybe it should be looked into adding a delay period along with kicks for x hours or days or such. Maybe if this kind of thing were changed to /tempban, it'd be better suited, but if /kick is currently intended to be a just-for-fun command, then I feel it should probably go.

/Kick is intended to be disciplinary but it is only used as a fun command and as such needs to go. If people are not going to use it properly there is no point for its existence, especially when redirect does the same thing but more of a message rather than just telling someone to hit F5 to get back in immediately considering /kick is literally worthless on Showdown outside of messing around. And if you're just going to be messing around with a should-be disciplinary command you don't know if you're going to end up harming someone else' fun for your own amusement and if you're doing that you're not acting like a proper mod in the first place. Even if you haven't hurt someone yet, you easily and most likely will and at that point are not doing your job. Mod is a job not a social status, even if you're not getting paid for it, so it needs to be taken more seriously. That also means that auth need to be held to an even higher standard of rule following and enforcement than the average user, not be given more leniency. Sure people are human and will mess up and wanna have fun, that's fine, but if you simply want to do nothing but mess around with things like /kick and are that adamant on a position that condones the exact opposite of a mod's job, then there needs to be some careful thought as to why you want to be in the position at all, and that's not me calling anyone out that's just me stating the truth.

As for all auth being able to /kick, it gets to a point where there is no point for the Driver position because there difference in power is so little on a hierarchy scale that they may as well be the same thing, and if you have that many mods on a single server then you're doing something wrong by having quantity over quality. Last I checked even during peak hours Reborn doesn't usually go over 50 users, so there's really no need to create a situation in which you have redundant positions being filled all for the sake of having a fun command just to have some silly little fun with the other big boys.

But I mean if you just want to fool around rather than take the modding position somewhat seriously, that's fine. I get it, it's just a pokemon server, who cares right? Just know that even having to argue over obvious things like this doesn't help to a site's overall health and only creates more tension between staff which creates tension for the users and ultimately leads to a decline in overall quality. It's a very slippery slope when auth can't come to civil agreements amongst themselves and have to turn to the entire community over something so trivial as wanting to have /kick for fun when Dan has been adding numerous fun commands such as the Breloom bot emotes already.

So all in all, just remove the command because it does no good and can even cause harm to genuine users who are too afraid of would-be abusive mods to actually say it bothered them if used on them "for fun." There's no reason to keep giving what is supposed to be moderator powers to a lower form of auth because they're supposed to be a lower form of auth. And overall just act like professionals even if you're not. It's not hard to just come on, talk to people, and take care of problem users rather than causing backlash for giggles. I'm sure I'm leaving something out in this long post, but you get the general gist of things from my viewpoint. You can take this how you will but this is just how it looks from someone who has run multiple communities with a lot of experience and is actually willing to say his mind.

[Diana]

I also want to bring up our previous stance on using commands "for fun"- we had a three hour meeting in April about why we shouldn't be abusing commands or using them for fun. Does that not still apply?

Anything else has been said by Wes much, much better than I could have said it myself.

[ZEL]

And if you're just going to be messing around with a should-be disciplinary command you don't know if you're going to end up harming someone else' fun for your own amusement and if you're doing that you're not acting like a proper mod in the first place. Even if you haven't hurt someone yet, you easily and most likely will and at that point are not doing your job.

What Wes said here.

Of course, if you hang around the server for a while you'll figure out that /kick is just something that's done for fun. Or maybe you know this from prior experiences on other websites. But there's always the possibility of someone coming onto the server and NOT being aware that /kick is just a silly fun thing.

There's more than enough chat servers out there which DO use /kick to discipline, or where immediately rejoining after a kick is not possible.

In which case a person would probably be more intimidated by the idea than amused - or at the very least, confused about whether or not it's purely a joke command, or if it's sometimes this and sometimes that.

I also feel like actually having a kick function isn't required for the joke to be funny. I've seen plenty of times, both here and on other websites, that people just go and purposely mistype the command (such as "/.kick"). That way, nobody actually gets kicked, but it's still obvious that someone wanted to make a joke about kicking said person. And that can make a difference in terms of how the "affected" person feels.

Last but not least, knowing that it's a joke doesn't necessarily mean that the person who receives the kick can't have ill feelings about it.

tl;dr

There is no need for a working /kick command to be able to make jokes about kicking someone.

Edited October 17, 2015 by Ama

[Dark Desire]

I also want to bring up our previous stance on using commands "for fun"- we had a three hour meeting in April about why we shouldn't be abusing commands or using them for fun. Does that not still apply?

Anything else has been said by Wes much, much better than I could have said it myself.

kick wouldn't apply to that since it was denoted to a "fun" command instead of one used for disciplinary purposes, the other auth commands still fall under the strict no abuse stance

[Jelly]

wait a minute : (

also kick is just really lame because all it's ever used for is certain auths spamming it on each other. while i havent been on the server frequently enough to see whether that has stopped or not i still believe it really isnt necessary anymore.

[Diana]

it's not necessary to have, though. there're enough "fun" commands as it is with dan working extra hard to make them a reality, and we've always had the rule of fun isn't allowed to be at someone else's expense. it just doesn't need to be there anymore.

[Soft Taco Bear]

I feel like having kick enables biased auth to kick users they don't like just for the sport of it, even when the user is not doing anything. At that point, you're not being funny because fun at others' expense is not fun, and I genuinely don't believe you should be allowed to be an auth at that point because rather than doing your job, you're just using your status and "it's a fun command" as an excuse to break a rule. How do you expect other community members to follow a rule if you can't uphold them yourself?

I've seen talk about trying to improve efforts to get community members to stick around, and allowing this command to stay in place will drive at least some of them away. That's the opposite of what a person of authority should be doing –driving people away from the community because they don't like them on a personal level. It's unprofessional and hypocritical.

It enables auth abuse AND allows them to get away with it because realistically nothing will be done about auth that abuse it and that's not fair.

[Chase]

As the main proponent auth for /Kick staying *dodges thrown tomatoes and nods at the inevitable booeing*

.....let me stake my case - and perhaps for those who are worried about the command, provide some help to your cause.

I'm happy that I am seeing users step forward and say that /Kick is a useless command.

My argument for making it a "fun" command was tied to the fact that Showdown currently does not have much leeway in regards to fun commands to begin with. /Nightclub hasn't been around since PO, and we don't have permission to change colors or names of other users - and that while at /kick's onset it was intended to be a command that was for disciplinary action, the command was easily bypassed and made it claim to fame something else entirely.

A joke. Admittedly, I am one of those auth in the past that illustrated the uselessness of said command.

I personally believe that this community is resilient enough to handle this commands existence with the appropriate measures taking place.

• No Jelly, the command is no longer spammed.
• There is a case handler that essentially renders auth contemplating it's use in a sticky situation - There is not a lot of leeway there. No Morgan, nobody's "getting away" with "abuse."
• There are plans to make said command attached to an "opt-in" list - meaning if the vote passes as it is currently doing so. (more on that later on below.) we will ensure it's well documented who wishes not to be targeted by the command.

Reborn has a history of interesting chat commands - and with the resurgence of Breloombot's new gimmicks, we're starting to see these come back to fruition. I feel that fun auth commands are a decent way to make auth feel personable while still being imposing enough to potential wrongdoers. I feel that if mod abuse caused community implosion, it would have already happened before multiple times in this community.

That is why it's been hotly debated among auth. Not because the auth should question the value of their positions, but that this type of fooling around has always been a facet of the community and is really only an issue because of the ramifications of the command. If we could change names or something that doesn't disrupt a user's enjoyment of the chatroom then kick would easily just be nixed.

I'm defending the resiliency of this community by defending this command here. Yes, there have been heated arguments and feelings have been hurt and whatnot over it - but this is far from a death inducing move.

---

That out of the way. Let me explain the vote.

Currently, there are 40 votes promoting the /Kick command staying in some way or fashion to 34 votes to kill /Kick. The first two options are votes to keep the command, the third is to outright remove it.

If the vote stands is, Kick will stand.

So, if there are any voters out there who do wish to kill /kick, you -are- allowed to change your vote and I encourage you do so to preserve the integrity of the Poll.

---

Thank you all for hearing me out.

[Deleted User]

That out of the way. Let me explain the vote.

Currently, there are 40 votes promoting the /Kick command staying in some way or fashion to 34 votes to kill /Kick. The first two options are votes to keep the command, the third is to outright remove it.

If the vote stands is, Kick will stand.

So, if there are any voters out there who do wish to kill /kick, you -are- allowed to change your vote and I encourage you do so to preserve the integrity of the Poll.

While it would probably be clearer broken down into two separate questions here's what the poll results say.

40/75 votes (More than half) are for @ or higher having access to the /kick command.

20/75 votes (way less than half) support % (drivers) having access to the /kick command.

You are all welcome to change your vote at whatever time you see fit if your opinion on the matter changes in some form.

[Arkhi]

If the /kick command is causing such strife, yet brings no terminal nor conclusive results in its use, remove it.

Drivers, as authority and role models of Reborn, are expected to use the /redirect command for productive use. I'll go out on a limb and say the Drivers' job description does not entail having fun. If their idea of it is playing hopscotch with users across rooms, they've lost the privilege and it ought to be taken away. As is, they should be permitted the command.

Both Voiced users and Drivers can broadcast the rules currently. There have been no incidents- to my knowledge- of a misuse nor spamming incident with the command. Accordingly, the power to use this ought to stay. Should issue arise, remove it from those causing the trouble.

[Wes]

As the main proponent auth for /Kick staying *dodges thrown tomatoes and nods at the inevitable booeing*

.....let me stake my case - and perhaps for those who are worried about the command, provide some help to your cause.

I'm happy that I am seeing users step forward and say that /Kick is a useless command.

My argument for making it a "fun" command was tied to the fact that Showdown currently does not have much leeway in regards to fun commands to begin with. /Nightclub hasn't been around since PO, and we don't have permission to change colors or names of other users - and that while at /kick's onset it was intended to be a command that was for disciplinary action, the command was easily bypassed and made it claim to fame something else entirely.

Just because there are less "fun" commands at the disposal currently, doesn't make it right to blatantly abuse a disciplinary command . Nightclub and other various commands have absolutely nothing to do with kick as kick's original purpose is for disciplinary action. Last I checked turning the chat into a shower of skittles isn't the same as putting someone in a time out corner because they were a little too naughty. Just because you currently lack "fun commands" doesn't mean you can use other commands such as kick as a temporary means to just get your fix on fun.

A joke. Admittedly, I am one of those auth in the past that illustrated the uselessness of said command.

I personally believe that this community is resilient enough to handle this commands existence with the appropriate measures taking place.

It doesn't matter if the general community can or not. New users are being pulled in daily what with the Reborn game being a thing and now Rejuvenation, and they may not be as used to the wacky escapades of improper use of commands that we find so delightful here. All that does is leave a bad impression on them and then they pass that message on to any friends they may have had coming. Now you may think "well then why would we want immature people who can't handle a joke coming around here anyway" and if you're thinking that, start rethinking about how a community is ran.

• No Jelly, the command is no longer spammed. - It doesn't NEED to be spammed if it's wrong for it to be used that way in the first place
• There is a case handler that essentially renders auth contemplating it's use in a sticky situation - There is not a lot of leeway there. No Morgan, nobody's "getting away" with "abuse." - It's abuse if used for a purpose other than proper disciplinary action, which it serves no purpose of anymore.
• There are plans to make said command attached to an "opt-in" list - meaning if the vote passes as it is currently doing so. (more on that later on below.) we will ensure it's well documented who wishes not to be targeted by the command. - If you have to trial and error who doesn't want to be targeted, or if new users that don't know how to opt out, then you need to stop arguing for its sake in the first place. It defeats the whole purpose and your time can be better used working on actual fun commands that don't possibly harm people and to properly utilize you powers as a mod. That goes for anyone.

Reborn has a history of interesting chat commands - and with the resurgence of Breloombot's new gimmicks, we're starting to see these come back to fruition. I feel that fun auth commands are a decent way to make auth feel personable while still being imposing enough to potential wrongdoers. I feel that if mod abuse caused community implosion, it would have already happened before multiple times in this community.

Auth should feel personable by simply doing a good job and having conversation with people while not breaking the rules and causing others to have Stockholm Syndrome because they're too afraid to speak up after being blatantly abused for giggles and the sake of "just a good time" There are numerous things you can do to be an active and friendly part of the community just by being a decent human being.

That is why it's been hotly debated among auth. Not because the auth should question the value of their positions, but that this type of fooling around has always been a facet of the community and is really only an issue because of the ramifications of the command. If we could change names or something that doesn't disrupt a user's enjoyment of the chatroom then kick would easily just be nixed.

Just because something always has been, doesn't mean it should be. I could say "hey guys there's this sweet new bridge off of, let's do it. I had some buddies so whynot us?" But you see that mentality doesn't work for the overall health of the community because it just keeps old stigmas alive. And again, just because you lack one fun command, doesn't mean you need to supplement it with another one simply because you're bored and really have an itch to use it instead of coming up with new ones.

I'm defending the resiliency of this community by defending this command here. Yes, there have been heated arguments and feelings have been hurt and whatnot over it - but this is far from a death inducing move.

No, you're not. You're defending you and like-minded individuals who want to keep a command with zero use that even can cause potential harm to the userbase with no real means of preventing said harm. Nothing about this entire thing defends the resiliency of the community. What defends the resiliency of the community is it still standing even after pointless arguments such as the removal of a toxic and overall useless command being this heated.

---

That out of the way. Let me explain the vote.

Currently, there are 40 votes promoting the /Kick command staying in some way or fashion to 34 votes to kill /Kick. The first two options are votes to keep the command, the third is to outright remove it.

If the vote stands is, Kick will stand.

So, if there are any voters out there who do wish to kill /kick, you -are- allowed to change your vote and I encourage you do so to preserve the integrity of the Poll.

That is completely unfair to those trying to remove. It was not stated initially that the first two options would be totaled together when weighted against the removal option. If that was to be the case and not just something added last minute to win the overall vote, there is no reason for the first two options to even be split at all considering they both end up being the same thing despite having entirely different purposes when it comes down to it. Sure they both involve kick staying, but they also involve different specifications of such as thus are different options, not synonymous aka not additive. On top of that, considering how utterly suspect it looks for that just coming up now, how communicated amongst the auth was it in the first place that the two first options need to be beaten in total by the votes for removal?

---

Thank you all for hearing me out.

Replies in Bold and underline..

[ZEL]

It would make way more sense, as Jericho hinted at, to split the question.

Wh y not ask first if we want /kick to stay or not, and then follow it up by "if it stays, who should be able to use it"?

I was not aware that they would be counted together like this, and even though it does not affect my vote (as I voted for removal) it might affect those who made a decision between the other two.

edit: screw that w ynaut emote

Edited October 18, 2015 by Ama

[Diana]

because several of the people handling the polls are people who defend kick staying. they need everything they can get to keep their little toy.

whether you want to admit it or not, that's how it appears. i know that totaling the votes wasn't even communicated against the auth, because i spent last night talking to several of them who didn't know they would be totaled until the vote to remove it started winning and someone talked about adding them.

it needs to be gone. fun is not at the expense of others, even if you say "but it's just a joke!"

maybe get a better sense of humor if your idea of fun is flexing your huge ego and position and removing someone from a room.

[Dark Desire]

I'm curious, what are your opinions on the redirect poll option? I honestly thought the turn out would be in reverse

I haven't really expressed my opinion much about this whole thing coming into the decision of making this poll for the community, I was really disappointed that /kick ended up becoming this "fun" command in the first place

As for my opinions on the poll options:

/kick - im basically agree with all of wes's points

/redirect - as far as I know it's not mandatory for us to move conversations if they have a dedicated room for it, so I don't really see a point in having drivers keep it

/warn - drivers are members who are trusted to moderate these forums so I don't see a problem in reminding other users of our rules

[Swimming95]

Just as an aside, it would also be very easy to make it so that a user can prevent themselves from being kicked. That is, a command could be made available to block themselves from being kicked (or re-enable it).

Personally, I also think it should be removed for drivers but wanted to put it out there

[Wes]

I'm curious, what are your opinions on the redirect poll option? I honestly thought the turn out would be in reverse

I haven't really expressed my opinion much about this whole thing coming into the decision of making this poll for the community, I was really disappointed that /kick ended up becoming this "fun" command in the first place

As for my opinions on the poll options:

/kick - im basically agree with all of wes's points

/redirect - as far as I know it's not mandatory for us to move conversations if they have a dedicated room for it, so I don't really see a point in having drivers keep it

/warn - drivers are members who are trusted to moderate these forums so I don't see a problem in reminding other users of our rules

/redirect should honestly be left up to the mods/admins, not the forum auth

/warn should be allowed for drivers because the forum and the server share the same ruleset, and all it does is display the rules anyway

Just as an aside, it would also be very easy to make it so that a user can prevent themselves from being kicked. That is, a command could be made available to block themselves from being kicked (or re-enable it).

Personally, I also think it should be removed for drivers but wanted to put it out there

The problem with scripting in to give people kick immunity is that it's not a solution, it's merely something to act as a band-aid after someone has already been affected, most likely, especially with new users that may or may not even know it is an option. That doesn't really do anything to justify the keeping of a toxic command.