The Fush

I wasn't discussing her with an AP build in terms of supporting. Anyway, I still don't quite get it; Q is literally the only thing to help her with doing any sort of attack damage other than autoattacks, and even then the bonus from Q is AP based, not AD. She doesn't have any sort of empowerments, either. All I can see is basically Leona, but with a tiny extra hint of damage on top; there'd be no point to building her as a bruiser.

How on earth does Leona have anything passable as "AD" other than her Q? Anyway, regarding AP Leona, me and Ikaru agreed that it was wouldn't work out unless you had pre-co-ordinated with your team in which case it could actually be decently powerful. The main problem is that AP Leona wouldn't fit the definition of a burster or anything so she wouldn't be a role-centralizing pick so much as a team centralizing one. Aside from Q+Lich Bane and her Ult, she has no stable form of good damage (though Q is good regardless). So if this is the case, it isn't gonna stop Leona from using CC and stuff and still securing kills for her team. If she's building AP, though, there's a few key differences between her and normal Leona: Farming of minions and possible kills lead to a higher gold income, letting Leona buy more expensive items which would benefit her towards her intended purpose (e.g Iceborn Gauntlet). The damage combined with her CC leave her more of a case of "here they're exposed and damaged for about like 40% of their health we can kill them" rather than "here they're exposed try to kill them". Co-ordinating with ganks with the jungler is more key to your survival in the game so you can keep up and secure kills early on. So, since AP Leona wouldn't be full burst, the team would require a offense-focused jungler or top laner aswell to make up for the lost damage; or just a 3rd source of (half-ish) burst damage in general. Also, AP Leona most likely wouldn't build items like talisman of ascension or passive buff items; her build contributes to teamfight effectiveness in different ways than a support leona would; Rylai's slow over Locket buff, the like. It's arguable that the build pros of AP Leona might not be as worthwhile if your team isn't building items that can work with it. Of course, that's basic LoL logic, but AP Leona would be particularly vulnerable to it. The problem is, without the team co-ordinating, picking their champs and their builds specifically, Leona's purpose is weakened because she can't dish out all the AP burst on her own and, like with any Leona, she wouldn't be able to execute disruption in teamfights as effectively; Leona is more affected by team co-ordination than most champions. And in normal games with random people, people won't have planned with you before the game and therefore AP Leona would lose presence. There's also the side note of her having some decent bulk, but like Ame said if you're looking for a tanky AP mid you're better off with Malphite or the like, so that's more of a minor pro. So, ultimately: AP Leona's main attraction over normal Leona is the slight damage added on top to the disruption already there. AP Leona's possible kill securing and actual farm would lead to her buying more expensive items that contribute to the team in different ways, such as Abyssal Scepter's magic resist debuff or the slows of Rylai's/Iceborn. She's weak early/early-mid game on her own since her damage wouldn't be as high as the enemy mid laner's, if we're to assume the enemy is picking the standard mid laner. However, her CC disruption and lackluster/decent damage would work well when co-ordinating in a gank, especially if the ganker is also CC heavy (think Nautilus, Rammus, Blitzcrank, etc). Late game, her Q is her best damage/overall use tool due to items like Lich Bane and Iceborn Gauntlet's contributions and the stun it provides, along with whatever other on-hit effects you may have. Her ult can do insane damage, but it has a large cooldown. Overall, Leona won't have as much burst presence as the usual AP carry would. Personal opinion, Leona would be more of a counterpicker to certain champions rather than a standard AP mid, due to how her disruption would work; of course, if the enemy specializes in harassment then Leona won't be able to retaliate easily and she's screwed instead (e.g Ziggs, possibly Karthus). In a premade game where she's co-ordinated with her team, she can make the best use of her disruption and decent damage to fuck over the enemy team. This ultimately means she's more of a damage-support than a burst carry, especially with things like Sunlight. You can also pull off some fancy combo shit if you like; say, if you have a Rumble at top to make up for some lack of Leona burst then you can double ult and he'll Q them or something. Experimentation and the like. So yeah, it's not really a viable strategy in normal gaming. Leona's ultimately more prone to the effect of teamwork, AP or not, and without a proper plan with you're team you're pretty much fucked. However, if you've actually planned shit out with a premade team or something, then she can actually be pretty damn threatening. That applies to almost anything in LoL, but as I said, Leona's particularly prone to it. In short: Don't do it with strangers. It's good to do it with premades where you've planned it, though. Ultimately your choice, and pretty much something you're barely ever going to see. I think I'm gonna want to give it a try with some of my friends sometime. This is essentially all theorycrafting, as a disclaimer; I don't have Leona yet, so I can't really speak too much for it.

I don't even play sivir what even

Also moving from the screenshot thread, I think I'm gonna placehold this for when I get around to summing up the discussion between me and Ikaru about AP Leona, specifically in the mid lane against common mid champs.

I actually discussed this with Ikaru quite a bit in a PM on the forums; seeing as how it's past midnight though, I'll probably have to get back on this later.

Out of interest, why do you consider AP Leona mid to be terrible? You're free to move this conv to a PM or the other LoL chat topic if you wanna reply so that we don't derail the purpose of this thread. Never saw her as too bad, personally.

I completely acknowledge your points, and I understand the differing opinions and thoughts people may have on it. The reason for my original comment was because Wes had immediately started shaming on a position for a champion that was uncommon without judging it for himself first (the warwick on the other hand was completely denying himself entirely though, I understand). If there's one thing I want to say regarding LoL, it's that you don't have to play to the meta. Champions are able to play roles that they aren't usually catered to and still do it good. Of course, there are roles (meta-known or not) that champions are innately bad at; a good example would be a LeBlanc trying to jungle. Her sustain and jungling speed would, overall, be far too bad to keep up in it, and unless you're a godamn genius then that's going to fail utterly. Same goes for, say, AD Veigar. There is absolutely nothing about him that sends any signal to attack damage. I understand that there are specific positions that specific champions can not do good at, whether these positions are meta-related or not. But you can't be reported for not sticking to the meta game. Riot has stated that themself. I've seen the position of Roaming, an uncommon role, done very well, with champions like Blitzcrank, Janna and Shaco (though Shaco's pretty much a roamer himself to begin with), and I've seen champions done in meta positions they aren't usually in manage just fine, like jungle Karthus and bot AP carries. I've seen champions go with alternate builds; AP gangplank, "support" Udyr (I actually had that once myself, though he stayed true to his position instead of having a million kills), etc, etc. You get the idea. Of course, if you're just doing an off-meta position at random, you're going to fail. Like with anything in League of Legends, you need to know what you're doing it and you need to gain skill at it. If you're doing it at random having never done it before and therefore not any setup has been made for it, that's essentially just you trolling. But if you're prepared, and you know what the fuck you're doing, and over time you become skilled at what you're doing, then there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. What really angers me is that the LoL community, being the League of Dipshits that it is, never understands this. People doing an off-meta role or position may know what they're doing perfectly well are still reported and constantly flamed by their team and the enemy's just because they're not sticking to the meta game, even though they've technically done absolutely nothing wrong at all. They most likely called their role, and just got flamed for it. Furthermore, they don't seem to understand that you can have bad games no matter what you're playing as or doing; if a meta-positon-role person is having a bad game, they'll probably just be called bad; LoL communities do that. But if an off-meta-position-role person is having a bad game, they get insulted and bullied because for some reason the other players think that the off-meta position is the cause of the person being bad. It's unjust and unfair. I understand that people may not like the idea of having to change what they're doing in the team comp because of an off-meta pick, but that doesn't mean they can't deal with it, adapt or be reasonable. There is nothing so bad about it. They can't expect every LoL game to go the exact way they want to, and they shouldn't be descending upon a player with a storm of hate just because they're doing something off-meta. When I think of people who understand this and treat the meta and non-meta as they see fit, two youtubers immediately come to mind; Solwolf and EroticDiscoHeat. I'm going to leave a video of one of them here to fully support what I've said so far: In conclusion: It's completely fine to play off-meta roles and positions, along with other stuff, so long as you know what you're doing and aren't just randomly trying something else. I italize that part because it otherwise might be open to misinterpretation. Helps if you've amounted some skill with that position aswell. Some people need to grow the fuck up and deal with off-meta events (I wouldn't address this to Wes; his jab was nothing too serious). Just because you're having a bad game while doing an off-meta thing, doesn't mean the failure is a result of the off-meta pick. There are certain things that certain items, builds, spells or champions are innately bad at doing. Please consider this. The meta is by no way a thing you need to always adhere to in League of Legends. Mould yourself and your champions. I'd go so far as to say this applies in ranked aswell; though I would stress to anyone doing this in ranked that lobby communication with your team is vital; these are people playing seriously and you shouldn't just jerk out something at them at random. Be reasonable; if they continue to be assholes, that's their problem. Anyway, rant ended! Here's the reason why I love Veigar and usually get around 1000 AP with him in a game; ARAM, but you get the idea:

I am literally stunned by this.

I see we're quickly judging certain off-meta champion positions without a good explanation to back it up again

OH SHIT MOTHERFUCKERS BE THERE BE THERE Y'ALL INFERNO DOG VS INFERNO REPTILE THERE GON' BE SOME HEAVY BODYBAGGIN'

Can I pay to see this please

No Michael Barkley 0/10 call the cops

AND THIS, MOTHERFUCKERS, ARE WHY ZIGGS AND RAMMUS ARE MY MAINS: ok Soraka had to leave due to real life shit and khazix was out for the first 5 mins BUT WE TURNED THAT SHIT AROUND ON THEM YO YOU CAN'T BEAT HOMEGUARD POWERBALL Also forgot to screenshot but from like a 22 min game there was: That mid Riven was pretty damn fun to play against.

if that means fucked it up for you then yes :I ryan pls

TWITCH IS STILL MY HOMIE FOREVER AND EVER (shit a double post cmon you guys step it up) Remembering how fun saying "Surprise motherfucker" while decimating a lone target is Not lying about Annie being MVP though, without those really well timed stun ults in earlygame and mid I wouldn't have been so grossly fed Fear the twitch annie ult combo

Ziggs and Rammus are two champions that I love playing, are fun as hell and have quirky, interesting characteristics for me; I luv' em. Honorable mention to Fizz and Veigar. Lore isn't something I care too much about but the general consensus is that Ziggs is like "STUFF GOES BOOM" which I like and I'm amused at how Ezreal was just like "holy shit it's a fucking talking armadillo ok"

So I return after 3 months of inactivity and HADOUKEN Still really enjoy playing Ryu now that I've learnt him a bit.

I've been reported several times for playing Twitch.

LEANINGASFUCK Artist: Dude the fuck's with yo hair Drawing: You're my fucking barber blame this on yourself also my feet are as big as fuck this is how most of the conversations would pan out Well, at least this doesn't look as lifeless as some of the last. I studied some shit and remembered nothing and it helped! Haven't hoodie'd in a while either. Glad to know I don't completely suck. Also he was supposed to kinda be leaning over but I fucked up and now his feet look weird as hell because of it

It's like me to send you a happy birthday on skype and then post it here the next day am I smooth at this or what HAPPY BIRTHDAY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=FLhntRwKYRojK4b2MzCt-FGg&v=fz4Ya6BEUpk&feature=player_detailpage You've got another month, America.

YO HARK GO PARTY HARD DAPPY WIRTHDAY