A Letter Concerning the Custom TMs in Rejuvenation

[VitaniDaReal]

pssst... guys

 

What happens with douse happens with incineration as welll.

 

Just my two cents for now.

[Octavius]

@Katia Thanks for the catch. Edited. I don't remember what I was going to say there, if anything, so that's unfortunate! It seems as though I was probably just transitioning into my second point, so I don't think I omitted anything crucial.

 

@VitaniDaReal Yeah, the point you are making with incineration is absolutely valid. Incineration should be obtained earlier in the game so it doesn't feel obsolete and a step backwards in TM quality progression. That, or Magma Drift should be designed so it isn't simply a better version of Incinerate. The fact that you get Drift first is just silly (and poor game design, imo).

 

..... Douse is still the worse offender in my book, though.

 

Oh, and @ISNorden, I like your ideas for Holy Water (and have already implemented augmentations to its strength given certain fields). It could definitely also serve as a 'Freeze-Dry' esque move, which means its base power would likely be 70. Although I don't like the idea of giving Water-types access to that sort of utility coverage move because Water is already one of the stronger types in the game (thanks, scald). As for my concept of making it more of a 'Heal Bell' esque move, this is because Holy Water--lore-wise--doesn't really affect anything other than the dark and demonic (which in Pokemon are Dark- and Ghost-types). We're not blasting pressurized holy water out of a cannon here lol. So that's the reasoning behind that. As far as what Pokemon could learn it, you make a fair point about there being no priestly Water Pokemon. Pretty much all the Water-types are some sort of fish or sea creature. But I imagine things like Starmie, Milotic, and Primarina, then maybe Alomomola, Slowking, Jinx, or Gothitelle or a few others being compatible. Perhaps that's a bit of a stretch, but Wooper can still learn Ice Punch, after all.

 

And hey, I have a whole arsenal of custom moves, so feel free to pm me if you'd like to check them out or discuss anything Pokemon-related.

Edited October 14, 2017 by Octavius

[Commander]

Octavion, I'm not going to ping you for this but I'm just gonna speak out on why you should be careful when addressing stuff. Right now, you are speaking on a more personal problems level and kind of are acting like this is a major problem with the game and in a sense demand that it be changed. Yeah, yeah one of you might be calling me a hypocrite here due to my whole tone that piss people off, but I want you to take a minute and just think what exactly is the major issue here.

 

So this custom moves and TM thing has been around for at least 3 years (Rejuv is either 3 or 4 years old but I never paid that much attention to it) and people like me have nagged about fake moves before in the past and it is a reason I don't really care for Rejuv. If these moves were such a problem, wouldn't you have thought they'd be fixed by now because many people were nagging about them for quite a long time. So why hasn't it been changed? Probably because the moves are doing what they are intended to do.

 

There's always going to be parts of a game people hate, but for every one of those groups, there's also people who really like a concept. You can't just outright get up and change something just because a few people hate it because then you have a brand new group of people who hate how you made changes. You want to know a concept that a lot of Pokemon fans, if not the majority, hate. It's field effects. Personally, I'm actually on the neutral side as while I think the idea is cool, I personally think quite a few fan-games could work better without them. So should Ame drop the idea of field effects? Oh hell no!

 

I think at this point it's time for Rejuv to more or less stay the same (maybe certain text edits in areas that were skipped...*cough* Xen Shadow Lab *cough*) since I don't see very much improvement trying to change stuff at this point. I'd probably focus your attention more on what doesn't exist since it's easier to change. I'm not very knowledgable of Rejuv's late game areas so I can't help in that department. Feedback and criticism isn't made to fix stuff, but to help someone improve future endeavors (such as future episodes).

 

I just wanted to say that because I kind of got the impression, and I pray I am completely wrong, that you pretty much want to insert or even to a degree of forcing your ideas into Rejuv. I'm just saying something because I don't think people realize how stressful being a developer is.

 

And then we get back to douse. I can see why people might really not like that move (honestly Valerie's TM should be considered Surf due to it being such a good move) we do need to dissect it entirely to see how BAD a move it really is. I don't know its BP, PP, nor its compatibility with Pokemon. Imagine if a Pokemon like Budew learned it. That'd be a freaking insanely good move for Roserade. I doubt Budew learns it but it's just to give you an idea that maybe you aren't looking at the move right.

[Octavius]

@Commander, *Pardon my tone is this response. I mean no disrespect: this is not intended as any sort of personal attack; I simply disagree with you and am explaining why/defending myself*

I appreciate the response. But if my posts are 'personal' in nature or are about 'personal problems', I invite you to please tell me how. In my responses to @Alex and @Wolfox, among others, I have been nothing but congenial and respectful. While my rhetoric can be too strong at times, I admit, you are the one who is levying accusations. You accuse me of making this thread all about me and trying to force my ideas on people (I think), while I affirm my ideas are here only for the good and improvement of Rejuv, not for whatever personal gain I would supposedly get from this. Again, no offense. But if you're going to dish it, I expect you to take it without 'pinging' me just because you disagree with me.

 

Now then, in philosophy, criticism is defined by two main appeals: the appeal to power, and the appeal to goodness. Appealing to power is saying someone is subjectively correct because of their privileged position or 'godlike' qualities. Appealing to goodness is saying someone is objectively correct because they appeal to a higher set of guiding principles. So as far as forcing my ideas into Rejuv is concerned, I am not suggesting that Rejuv updates its custom moves because I believe I am a 'godlike' creative content designer. That would be the appeal to power. I am suggesting that Rejuv updates its custom moves because that is what is best for the game from a design perspective. That is the appeal to goodness. If Rejuv uses my custom moves, fine. If not, fine. But those moves should be updated and improved just the same. Hopefully that makes sense to you, because I am not here to offend anyone or because this is some kind of personal ego trip for me. I am here to offer constructive criticism, and if I am doing that incorrectly, please PM me with how I should improve my forum etiquette. Sincerely, thank you.

 

Also, while I disagree with you on most of your points, I think we are both very intelligent people and that makes for more growth and interesting discussion. As such:

 

First off, just because a point has been made before, it doesn't mean that point has been made in the way me or anyone else new makes it. Most posts on this forum are about topics many people have posted about before. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be posted. And to that extent, just because custom moves in Rejuv haven't changed for years doesn't mean they won't change in a future episode. Thing are patched and changed all the time. Terajuma Jungle was remapped after being the same way for a long time. Florinia in Reborn (second gym leader) gave grass knot as her tm since forever, then one episode it changed and her tm became nature power. 

 

Next, if you think "feedback and criticism isn't made to fix stuff", then I again respectfully disagree. Many extremely lucrative games patch and change pre-existing content regularly (League of Legends, Hearthstone, etc.) based on player statistics and feedback. And besides, fixing pre-existing issues makes a game better because it builds a stronger foundation off of which to build future endeavors. You yourself said you aren't a fan of Rejuv's custom moves, so I reason to say those can be improved, however that may be. And when you say, "I would focus your attention more on what doesn't exist since it's easier to change," I honestly don't understand what you mean because you can't change what doesn't exist yet. Are you suggesting people should post about what they think should happen in future Rejuv episodes rather than trying to improve things in past episodes? I don't want to read into this further without your clarification. 

Meanwhile, your point about "You can't just outright get up and change something just because a few people hate it because then you have a brand new group of people who hate how you made changes" is objectively incorrect. Just because a decision is unpopular doesn't mean it's not the right decision. And besides, I don't believe either of us has statistics regarding how many people think the custom moves (for gym leaders and as tm rewards) in Rejuv should be changed. And besides, I'm not saying I dislike custom moves and that they should be removed altogether. I'm saying they should be improved. So your point about Ame removing field effects doesn't translate well. And if you don't think custom moves and custom tms are a large part of the game, then I disagree with you there also. Gym leader fights, boss fights (where the boss has a custom move), and TM rewards are an important part of the game in my opinion.

 

And then we get back to Douse. And since you pointed the finger at me first, here's my counter-point: since you don't know Douse's BP, PP, nor its compatibility with Pokemon, that should give you an idea that maybe it's you who isn't looking at the move right. 

 

*Again, I apologize for my tone and mean you no disrespect. But if you're going to dish it, I expect you to take it.*

[Swampellow]

Hey Douse is a pretty lit move, I'm guessing nobody has actually tested it. It is 70 BP water move that has a high chance to slow the opponent. It also is single target so it won't hit your partner in double battles. Its not a bad move so my guess is you have never actually used it if you are saying it is bad.

 

Anyone who has played a Pokemon game knows that lowering your opponents stats, especially speed, in-game can make battles vastly easier.

[Jess]

6 minutes ago, Swampellow said:

Anyone who has played a Pokemon game knows that lowering your opponents stats, especially speed, in-game can make battles vastly easier.

Especially Reborn/Rejuvenation. This is a rule. Lower Speed, make your life better. Why Icy Wind and Bulldoze are give to us THAT late in Reborn. Cause if we had them early, we'd be having much MUCH less trouble!

 

Also, personally I loved Poison Sweep in Rejuvenation. Replaced the pitiful Poison Sting and made my Nidorino relevant without having to wait till 43 for Poison Jab, or for a Moon Stone and Sludge Wave TM.

[FairFamily]

16 hours ago, Swampellow said:

Hey Douse is a pretty lit move, I'm guessing nobody has actually tested it. It is 70 BP water move that has a high chance to slow the opponent. It also is single target so it won't hit your partner in double battles. Its not a bad move so my guess is you have never actually used it if you are saying it is bad.

 

Anyone who has played a Pokemon game knows that lowering your opponents stats, especially speed, in-game can make battles vastly easier.

Than why doesn't it get mentioned? The description doesn't mention anything about speed reduction.

[Swampellow]

51 minutes ago, FairFamily said:

Than why doesn't it get mentioned? The description doesn't mention anything about speed reduction.

My guess is it is just an error/not enough space, I'm assuming the latter. My point still stands in that don't say something is bad if you have literally never even tested the move out. All of the custom TMs have use, whether filling in moves until better ones are available (Poison Sweep, Stacking Shot) or giving a cool new move for other mons that might use it(Slash and Burn, Irritation). Douse is a unique case sure because it overlaps with mons that learn surf, but it still has something that Surf doesnt (speed lowering+ single target).

[FairFamily]

58 minutes ago, Swampellow said:

My guess is it is just an error/not enough space, I'm assuming the latter. My point still stands in that don't say something is bad if you have literally never even tested the move out. All of the custom TMs have use, whether filling in moves until better ones are available (Poison Sweep, Stacking Shot) or giving a cool new move for other mons that might use it(Slash and Burn, Irritation). Douse is a unique case sure because it overlaps with mons that learn surf, but it still has something that Surf doesnt (speed lowering+ single target).

I actually disagree on that. The move description serves as a basic indication of what a moves should be doing before commiting to it. Also Douse not following move description standards  might be considered worse because now people cannot put trust in the descriptions of all custom moves.

[Sardines]

1 hour ago, FairFamily said:

Also Douse not following move description standards  might be considered worse because now people cannot put trust in the descriptions of all custom moves.

A bit extreme, don't you think? While it can be inconvenient to not have the appropriate description, I think that may be a bit too dramatic. For all we know, Jan may have just forgot to put that bit of information given that he is also working on a lot of other things in the game (excluding the dev team he got now, Rejuv was mainly a solo project). I see it as more of a "bug" where players who used the move and saw the issue should tell in the bug-reporting thread (or whatever medium there is). I'm sure Jan would add that small bit of description ("It reduces the target's Speed.") if he knew of the mistake.

[Commander]

23 hours ago, Octavius said:

*Again, I apologize for my tone and mean you no disrespect. But if you're going to dish it, I expect you to take it.*

Ummm...if you really think I'm lashing out on you know, I really haven't. If you really want me to dish it out, I gladly will starting with the fact you felt the need to make warning like this since it displays that you are unable to respond properly without making it seem like a personal attack. Also, I didn't ping you because I'm afraid. Sometimes people get a little busy or are just done so maybe this could be bothering you or getting in your way. Pings imo should be for things that require to be looked at or are in a thread the user normally would not be in. I probably could read and respond to the rest but it really is just circling around. There is one other thing I wanted to address.

 

23 hours ago, Octavius said:

And then we get back to Douse. And since you pointed the finger at me first, here's my counter-point: since you don't know Douse's BP, PP, nor its compatibility with Pokemon, that should give you an idea that maybe it's you who isn't looking at the move right. 

This statement is what made this argument storm just rise. When you told me this, guess what I did? I actually looked at not only the compatibility list of Pokemon, but I also looked at the moves metadata. The PBS files are free to access to anyone and I figured out the description was a typo simply due to my knowledge of essentials in which it has a 20% chance to reduce the speed stat. That was something I did and figured out that there was a little error in the description which is likely an oversight. And I am calling out on you because I did something you should've done in the first place before calling a move bad. In fact if any of you guys used it, you would've figured the speed reduction out (it is a better Water Pulse). I did my research, you didn't.

 

And now we're back to the whole debating again. The more I actually look into these moves, the more I see how overlooked some of them are. I do wish Douse's speed reduction had a 50% chance but it's still a pretty good move (almost Scald good) due to it not hurting your partner Pokemon. It was an oversight which likely will be corrected or tried to be corrected. I think the moral of the this topic is that there was a lot of ignorance and assumptions which made for poor arguments. At this point the argument is kind of over as it has been proven all the custom TMs have uses even if they are a bit gimmicky. Due to them having a use it is justified to not change them at all. 

[Jess]

31 minutes ago, Commander said:

That was something I did and figured out that there was a little error in the description which is likely an oversight. And I am calling out on you because I did something you should've done in the first place before calling a move bad. In fact if any of you guys used it, you would've figured the speed reduction out (it is a better Water Pulse).

Pardon me if I got something wrong, but I thought Water Pulse can Confuse, not lower Speed... So, how is Douse a better Water Pulse?

 

Also, I disagree that "Due to them having a use it is justified to not change them at all.". If something has a unique occasional use, but is useless 99% of times, this is a reason for trying to improve it. Besides, better is the enemy of good.

Also, if you never try to make something better, you will never succeed in improving anything. And Jan's way of thinking has been proven to be this, since he has repolished many aspects of his game, spending a lot of his time doing so.

If he thought like you suggest, he could say "since the map already works, has a use and isn't buggy, it is justified to leave it this way". But he didn't.

Edited October 16, 2017 by Jess

[Commander]

Just now, Jess said:

Pardon me if I got something wrong, but I thought Water Pulse can Confuse, not lower Speed... So, how is Douse a better Water Pulse?

So let me explain in that Water Pulse has 60 BP and has a 20% chance to confuse the opponent. The thing about Confusion is that it gives an opportunity to give a free hit which is a tactic I've used before when dealing with very, very tanky units. The thing about speed reduction is that it allows for a mon to hit before the opponent many times (which is why Rock Tomb is a pretty good move) so it also serves as a free hit in many instances. In other words, they serve the same role, but speed reduction is much better than relying on confusion hax.

[Jess]

5 minutes ago, Commander said:

So let me explain in that Water Pulse has 60 BP and has a 20% chance to confuse the opponent. The thing about Confusion is that it gives an opportunity to give a free hit which is a tactic I've used before when dealing with very, very tanky units. The thing about speed reduction is that it allows for a mon to hit before the opponent many times (which is why Rock Tomb is a pretty good move) so it also serves as a free hit in many instances. In other words, they serve the same role, but speed reduction is much better than relying on confusion hax.

They don't serve the same role, since Confusion isn't the same as lowering Speed. If a Pokemon lowers the Speed of a Deoxys/Electrode by one stage, it will still be outsped probably. But if it confuses it, it has 50% chance for it to hurt itself. If they were the same, they'd be the same. 

The "giving you the possibility to hit first" isn't same with the "giving you the possibility (50%) to hit without getting hit, with the enemy doing additional damage to himself".

 

So, they CAN serve a SIMILAR role, but not the same role. 

Now, when it comes to personal preference, it is completely personal (and situational, as I already prove to you).

Edited October 16, 2017 by Jess

[Octavius]

Commander, you're smarter than this: 

37 minutes ago, Commander said:

Ummm...if you really think I'm lashing out on you know, I really haven't. If you really want me to dish it out, I gladly will starting with the fact you felt the need to make warning like this since it displays that you are unable to respond properly without making it seem like a personal attack.

You're an ace member who's been here forever. I'm a newcomer. Me prefacing my comments are a sign of respect. So much for that lol. 

And oh please, no one in their right mind is going to think that "I am unable to respond properly" after looking at any of my well put-together and highly-detailed responses (not to toot my own horn, but come on). That's not even a reasonable thing to say.

 

And I only hit back at you because you criticized me--which is great, don't get me wrong--and because I thought a lot of what you said was incorrect. So I responded for the sake of everyone reading this being able to expand their insights and maybe think about things in a way they hadn't before. That includes you and me, so it's a win-win in my book.

 

But hey, you got me! I did not do my research on Douse. I've never taught it to a Pokemon or used it in game. I admit it. But apparently, you didn't either, otherwise you would've called me out on it before. You made the same mistake I did, so don't give me this tauros-crap about how you did the research and I didn't lol. Heck, you never would've looked at the data files for Douse if my comments hadn't prompted you to do so. But your discovery actually brought to light an oversight made by the Rejuv Dev Team! That's fantastic! So if anything, we (ok it was you, but whatever...) identified a bug for the next episode. So that's great to see!

 

Other than that, yep, it's circular reasoning from here on out, so thanks again for the replies! I enjoyed the discussion. Take care!

[Alex]

I feel like all that needs to be said has been said, and that further arguing is a little pointless. The conversations seem to also be going much deeper and slightly erring on the side of becoming personal, which isn't exactly great. As this thread was intentionally a letter to the dev team, and that we've seen and acknowledged it and will do what is necessary, if anything. Due to this, as well as the aforementioned reasons, this thread will be locked until further notice. Thanks for the contributions!