Reborn Tiers and Metagame

[Eternal Edge]

Alright, wanna come at our tiers? Let's ask for a bit of research first. We recently had some tier changes as is, so I'd like for you to review our posts about this first. Until you've reviewed our posts about our decisions don't start calling things unbalanced or dumb or any other ad hominims. I'm gathering all the threads in this post for your ease of access.

First off, the Propsed Tier Changes, seen here:

http://www.pokemonreborn.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1689&view=findpost&p=22517

After that, we had a second thread about said tier changes, seen here:

http://www.pokemonreborn.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1752&view=findpost&p=23412

Finally, we had a third thread trying to finalize everything, seen here:

http://www.pokemonreborn.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1842&view=findpost&p=24592

Now, this doesn't seem to matter as much to anyone but we also went over baby weather. Seen here:

http://www.pokemonreborn.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1725&view=findpost&p=23119

Our final tiers are listed here.

http://www.pokemonreborn.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2133

Now that the discussions are within easy to see parameters I expect some more thought out responses than "Garchomp is OP" or "ShadowTag Chandy shouldn't be OU." Review our choices on tiers and the discussion and add an actual intellectual response to this thread.

Lastly, I'd like to remind everyone of something that Ame posted in each of the tier change threads. To quote directly:

*A note about Reborn's OU:

One of the greatest appeals of Reborn is that we do not follow Smogon tiering. Drizzle+SwiftSwim will not be banned here in the foreseeable future, and if it is (unlikely), SandStream+SandRush and Drought+Chlorophyll will go right along with it. Pokemon like Blaziken and Garchomp that have been banned by Smogon are probably not going to make it to Ubers here for the sake of preserving a (reasonably balanced) environment in which they can still be used. Shadow Tag Chandelure is another such case, but we have had an in depth discussion on it recently in which justification for its ban could not be logically resolved.

[Chrona]

I'll start this off with a reasonable discussion on ST Chandelure. I don't claim to be an expert on whatever you call metagame blah blah but in my own opinion I really don't see it being fair enough to justify it being in OU tier.

You could say it just counters other popular things in OU tier but I think it goes a bit beyond that. Most teams I see have at least one thing it can safetly switch in on and trap and kill. Popular pokemon such as Scizor, Ferrothorn, Fortress etc. Basically anything with a fire type weakness that isn't behind a sub and is slower then your average scarfed Chandy. Now ussually at this point it picks up a free kill. Now if you didn't know anything about your opponents team you can't really do much about this. It has the power to kill a great deal of common pokemon with ease.

I see a lot of people saying it has counters such as Aqua jet and faster pokemon when really those arguements don't make much sense to me. Sure there are some pokemon that can take its hit / priority bomb it however. After you switch in Chandelure to kills say Fortress and then you send out Azzumarill there is no reason in the world to leave Chandy out there. An educated opponent will ussually switch out after you have gotten the kill meaning that it doesn't really have much of a counter.

Now I've heard the arguement that a strong pokemon with pursuit can switch in after Chandy has gotten the kill and revenge kill it. This makes more sense as a counter to it but really you are only stopping it AFTER it has already done what it has set out to do. Also having a strong pursuit user on every team makes every team limitied in choices.

The only real way I can see it having a hard counter would be to have a bait type pokemon. Example is Ferrothorn. With a shed shell and then switch out to a strong pursuit user to take it down. Now this actually works but having to have 2 pokemon with a specific moveset just to take down one pokemon seems a little over the top. You could do the same thing without the shed shell but that would require a lot of prediction and knowing what your opponents pokemon were.

Another thing I have seen done with ST Chandelure is having a substitute/ double team (really any stat boosting move) and have it switch into a pokemon that has no way of doing damage to it. This results in say a Ferrothorn being unable to break Chandys subs as it stat boosts like mad for free. This is far less common but its still a possibilty.

Also if you think about it Chandelure isn't that bad without ST. It still hits like a truck >>

Please read all of what I have said if you want to argue against it. If my arguement was bad or you have something to say to what I argued please tell me and see if we can't make this a nice discussion.

[Noivy]

The biggest Issue that I see with people and Chandelure is that they only have one real good response to it. Most of the OU teams I have have a certian synergy in that no two pokemon share the same type. (This is excluding the vast hoard of weather teams out there) The biggest issue is that when people get revenge killed, they often dont have a suitable response and that leads to a sweep.

/activate bastard mode

I guess that the reason cant handle it is because we have so many people from places where it HAS been banned, and as such, they dont have an idea as to counter it. I want chandelure to stay where it is. Why? League, and also having the metagame that Ive come to love be suddenly twisted against mine, and most certainly others, will.

[Eternal Edge]

I don't see why you have to use a SE attack to kill chandy though?

The basic set has Fire Blast/Overheat, Shadow Ball, a Hidden Power (usually Ice or Fighting), and Energy Ball. This means Fire, Ghost, Ice/Fighting, and Grass. This leave Normal(If HP Ice though I admit you don't know the HP), Fighting, Fire, Electric, Poison, Flying (If HP Fighting), and Dragon (If HP Fighting) as types that aren't SE'd by it, and depending on the switch maybe even an immune or NFE. That's quite a few types that can be used against it.

Now then, what to use as attacks once you get out? Well Chandy is weak to Ghost, Dark, Water, Ground, and Rock type attacks. 3 of those have priority moves and then there's Pursuit. There are a few good switches to counter Chandy there. Now, the opponent could simply switch out their Chandy here, but that gives you a free turn to set up something, be it a sub, stat boost or entry hazard.

Speaking of entry hazards, a lot of teams run entry hazard from my experiences, all of which hit Chandy hard. Keeping those in mind as well it really shouldn't be as big a problem as people say it is.

(PS, thank you for giving this a thought out response. I've really been getting annoyed with people bashing our tiers just because they aren't smogon tiers.)

[Amethyst]

I see this argument with Chandelure a lot, and I'm kind of confused about it. People say it can't be countered, because it just switches out of whatever threatens it. But at that point we're not considering the Pokemon itself, but the entire team and skill of the players.

Is that always considered when looking at counters? Because if so, then there are a lot of other pokemon that can't be countered, circumstanitally, etc. If it isn't usually considered, what makes Chandelure so special that we get to consider that?

[Chaos_Shark]

90% of the Chandys I've seen have been Choiced in one or the other. I've even seen a Banded one before. If a Poke is Choiced and the opponent switches into something to take the hit-what the heck is wrong with them switching out? Just because Chandelure isn't seen to often-and when it is it often sweeps-doesn't mean it shouldn't be in OU. Chandelure is probbably one of the best Specialy Offensive Fire types in the 5th Gen metagame, and some of the best Pokes are put in OU because they would destroy lower tiers, for example when Smogon put Blaziken to Ubers hardly anyone was using it. Chandelure deserves its place in OU-end of.

[Legacy]

I'm sorry but I have to agree with Chrona's point.

ST Chandy is, in my view, overpowered in OU. The comments I've seen about 'switching is related to the skill of the battler' is rubbish (no offence meant). Anyone running a Choiced Set on an ST Chandelure at least half knows what they're doing, and would be stupid to NOT switch it out from a pokemon that counters it. Pursuit users are capable of dealing with it, and perhaps solid sp.def walls like Blissey could take it's hits and outstall it (to which you'd most likely see a switch before that happened).

On the flip-side however, what if it ISN'T choiced? Non-choiced ST Chandy could potentially be dealt with quite easily due to it's low speed stat (since it would lack the speed to be a fast revenge killer), but again that leaves the chance of the opponent switching out Chandelure from the counter, which is highly likely.

Basically the thing with Chandelure is that you need at least two pokemon to deal with it (unless you have very good prediction). One has to be sacrificed to allow the counter to come in. But as has been said, 90% of people using ST Chandy (especially those FROM THIS SITE, whom the tiers are mostly made for) know how to use it and to switch out when a counter pops up, thus rendering that idea almost completely null and void.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Legacy

[Chrona]

Yeah. It does have quite the weakness to entry hazards. SR in particular on switch in takes a nice dent of its health. I really don't see this as being too big of an issue considering how frail it is. Granted most hits its gonna be taking are gonna ohko it anyway. I also consider that it's not gonna be switching around too often. Just enough to secure whatever it can easily revenge kill. Also you have to account for most pokemon that are going to try to set-up SR are going to be quickly trapped and killed by it.

In my experiences Chandy is only gonna come in when you can secure the kill and with its coverage it can ussually get at least neutral coverage. Now the pokemon after it assuming it was choiced can ussually get a set-up started which is true if you play around it. However most things can't exactly get a free set-up on Chandy. The whole pursuit arguement bothers me a little because then that kinda says the only way to counter it is to assume that its already going to get the kill and set-up etc. Countering things after they have already done what they intended to do seems a little redundent to me.

As for what makes it special compared to other pokemon? I guess in way that it kinda is just a more potent version of other pokemon with a similar role. Dugtrio, Magnezone, Wobbuffett. What sets it apart though is the sheer number of pokemon it can secure a kill on with no way to stop it. Comparing it to the other pokemon it just has massive advantages over them.

A pokemon that is able to synergize so well with other pokemon. Example being Terrakion or Dragonite (any dragon type really). Almost all the counters to the previous pokemon can be trapped and killed turning the game that much farther on your favor. Also another good reason is the common weather team. Now having a counter to weather isn't that bad. However having Chandelure in your own weather team makes weather control immensily easier. Politoad ended your sun and killed your switch in? Easy trap and weather control. Ussually turning the game. Also note that it can set up on a lot of pokemon if it isn't choiced. Ussually supporting/wall pokemon. Chansey/ferrothorn/scizor/fortress etc. It's fairly flexible.

I guess I would say the reason its considered special or uncounterable is there isn't really a way to stop it from getting a kill which is a quality that only it shares.

[Eternal Edge]

(See I like this sort of discussion about it Chrona ='D)

Yeah, I can see your point there really. Though personally I have no problem with Chandy killing off a Politoed >>

I gotta say I kinda agree with Chrona on this a bit now.

[Zen]

To bring up a point related to ST chandelure - do bear with me on this one - I'd have to ask a rhetorical question: which came first, the phoenix or the flame?

As Chrona has mentioned, most ST chandelure users are usually at least decently competent at handling one. So of course, they'd know how to switch it out, optimize the trapping, etc.

However, there is also the fact that the Reborn server has apparently gained some popularity of late - and by that I mean the trickles of new server participants (not community members) who come by to have their weekly dose of Drizzle/SS or whatnot. Frankly, I see more ST chandelure on those members than the usual Reborn community.

Which brings me to my point of the phoenix/flame question. Some of these users would have probably copy/pasted sets from the Smogon archives, from the days before ST chandelure got banned. Goodness knows I've taken down enough of them of late, though some were smart enough to save the chandelure, albeit temporarily. So the chandelure set may be viable, but the handling could be off. While it's a great trapper and revenge killer, chandelure goes down like a tin can if you run it wrong. Between entry hazards, damaging weather, and priority moves, chandelure's survival ability could be severely compromised by an incompetent handler.

The player may be competent, but the lack of experience in handling the chandelure may lead to a loss.

In fact, I don't think I've seen any ST chandelure on teams by Reborn community members recently.

So I guess as far as Reborn is concerned, ST chandelure is not a problem. The usual server users are probably mostly bored of ST chandelure and tend to use other pokemon more frequently as of late, and know how to handle them if they do turn up, anyway.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Zen

[Noivy]

The thing is about Chandelure is that WHY should it be banned? If it was made uber, would that make it illegal in the League? I, and others who have it on their teams , would not want to have something shoved against their face and be forced to change teams just because of someting that *might* be Overpowered, just because a few people can't take a grain of salt with it.

Its not just ladder that we're talking about here. Remember that.

One of the reasons I've been with Reborn is because of the great OU we have here. I'll edit this post with better points though out the day once I manage to hop on a school computer.

Editing here because nothing else to say- non-legendary Ubers are still allowed in the league; GG used Wobbuffet back when it was still uber, as an example

~Ikaru

Wobbuffet was Uber? lolwut. Seems kinda silly, since I havent seen it at all since the Fifth gen release on PO

Edited April 13, 2012 by Owen V. Seattle

[Zen]

The thing is about Chandelure is that WHY should it be banned? If it was made uber, would that make it illegal in the League? I, and others who have it on their teams , would not want to have something shoved against their face and be forced to change teams just because of someting that *might* be Overpowered, just because a few people can't take a grain of salt with it.

Its not just ladder that we're talking about here. Remember that.

One of the reasons I've been with Reborn is because of the great OU we have here. I'll edit this post with better points though out the day once I manage to hop on a school computer.

It'll probably pass, like gas. Even PO's main server now has wobbuffet in the OU XD

[Amethyst]

I wasn't challenging that most people have the sense to switch it out. I'm challenging if that can be considered in examining its counters.

[Zen]

I wasn't challenging that most people have the sense to switch it out. I'm challenging if that can be considered in examining its counters.

Which was the point of my earlier post - the sense is apparently lacking in some of the recent users of ST chandelure Or at least, those I ran into.

[Conor]

Okay, I run a Chandelure on my sand team and yes it is scarfed with shadow tag. i personally on ladder have seen my Chandelure fall a million times. This is because there are quite a few counters that people just don't think of in battle. The number one thing that can counter a a chandlure is any dragon Pokemon. personally i would say that about 40% of teams have at least one kind of dragon Pokemon on there team. that just being an estimate, i might be off by 30% either way. but anytime a Chandelure comes in to kill your Pokemon, you might lose them, but then your next Pokemon can be a dragon. set up dragon dance and then you basically set up your sweep for the match, with the right move set. I realize the main argument buzzing around is that ST Chandelure gets a free kill whenever it wants, but you can get a free sweep whenever you want by the use of it. it can actually be a downfall to your opponents team if countered correctly. the other thing that can counter it easily is Chansey. Chansey can completely wall anything Chandelure tries to do. again you might lose your Pokemon, but Chansey can come in and set up stealth rock, use thunder wave/toxic on the incoming Pokemon.

I'm just going to make a closing point. The annoying thing about Chandelure is that it pretty much gets one guaranteed kill in any battle. My Second and closing point is that isn't that true for more than just Chandelure? correct me if i'm wrong but aren't excadrill, kingdra, and garchomp are all of the same nature in there perspective weather? they can get a guaranteed kill or set up for a sweep. i'm sure the natural response to this would be that well then we should send them off to ubers too just like smogon. but seriously isnt that what makes our server unique. the fact that almost nothing is banned for being too hard to beat. in my opnion, i think that these tiers make for a much more exciting experience and would like very much for them to stay the same.

[The Fush]

I'm just gonna make this simple:

Over the ST chandelure discussion, I don't agree that you need two pokemon to take it down (unless switching when they switch counts). If you have a counter to it, they'll be smart and switch out (unless it's just like those not-as-smart-but-no-offense-intended people that zen mentioned). But if that's the case, then you can switch out too. To the people who talk about the whole being smart and having a brain to switch the god darned chandelier out (i hate it, but that's a different story), keep in mind that while the opponent has a brain, YOU also have a brain.

We have tactics and tiers for a reason, and i believe that Chandelure should stay put in OU.

[Chrona]

I wouldn't say pokemon like Garchomp and Excadrill or Kingdra are comparable to Chandelure. They aren't like it in the sense that they always get a guaranteed kill. With Excadrill you can switch to something like Skarmory or (insert physical wall here). Kingdra can be walled by Ferrothorn etc. Whereas there is no switch counter to Chandy because of shadow tag. Sure you technically could switch if you had a shed shell but thats an extreme case. Also Chansey does not deffinately counter it. Infact subsitute Chandy actually can trap it and stat boost on it. Seismic toss? No damage. T-wave? Sub. Which can easily lead to +6 Chandy in your face and your best wall to special attacks is gone.

I can see a "counter" to it being sending out a dragon type or something and stat boosting when you know its locked into a move. I wouldn't really consider this much of a counter either as your already stating the it gets a kill regardless and I'm assuming that people's teams are smart and can deal with a +1/+1 Dragonite or etc with the rest of there team. Also keep in mind that not all Chandelures are choiced and can instead hidden power ice the dragon or even better it could already be behind a sub sitting at +6 stats.

Also some people are misunderstanding that I said that you need 2 pokemon to take it out. I'm saying that you need 2 pokemon to counter it. By that i'm saying to take it out without it getting a kill first which is pretty hard to do on a player that is experienced and knows how to use it properly / build a team around it.

Keep in mind i'm not saying I see everyone running the thing I'm just talking about it in general.

[The Fush]

While I'm on here, I'd also like to start something up that I discussed with a friend on Swift Swim Kingdra. I'm not entirely sure if it makes it overpowered in the OU tier, but I've seen alot lately bunched up with Politoed, and being able to DD and sweep quite a bit. I understand how there are clear counters like Ferrothorn, but if it powers up (it has few tools at it's disposal to do so) it can 6-0 a team with mostly ease. Why do I say this? Well, Kingdra, with it's typing, only has a weakness to Dragon types. Now, I looked up the damage calculations, and found out that a Banded Dragonite with extremespeed (because otherwise Kingdra would outrun you) deals a max of 181 damage to a kingdra with no Defense EVs. This means that, since dragon moves are the only other thing that stand a chance (which are then outspeeded by a DD Kingdra, unless it's a Scarfed Salamence or something (which I admit is quite common)), Kingdra is nearly impossible to kill if the rain is kept up. Keeping in mind what i said about other people having intelligence, even a Ninetails wouldn't switch in to Kingdra. For starters, outrage wouldn't be affected by the sun, and Ninetales, unless i've forggotten something, doesn't really have anything in it's arsenal to take down kingdra in one hit with. Not to mention, if the person with kingdra has brains, it would switch back into politoed, which again Ninetales has trouble dealing with. Tyranitar and Abomasnow don't really have much against a DD Kingdra with outrage either, even with a focus sash (and how often do you see those on one of them?).

Now, I know that some of you are probably tearing your hair off telling me that a Scarfed Salamence or Dragonite can easily take down Kingdra, I want you to keep in mind that DD isn't the only option with SS Kingdra (Swift Swim, not a ship). For starters, it works just as well with special attacking, and with a sash or, in a rare case, one of those resist SE berries, can ice beam any of those Dragons to death. Again, sash isn't something you see often on them.

What I'm trying to say here is, Kingdra is most likely to take out at least one of your pokemon or sweep your team whole if it sets itself up (if it needs to). It requires some pretty darn serious tactics to take it down. I understand that this probably doesn't hold water (see what i did there?) to move it to the uber tier, considering Reborn's fair system and the same sort of situation with ST Chandelure, but I would appreciate some feedback to this.

Edit: When Kingdra has a haban berry, a Scarfed Dragonite's outrage can't kill it in one hit. Just so you know.

Keep in mind that I'm not involving critical hits.

Edited April 15, 2012 by BeaverRoo

[Zen]

Also Chansey does not deffinately counter it. Infact subsitute Chandy actually can trap it and stat boost on it. Seismic toss? No damage. T-wave? Sub. Which can easily lead to +6 Chandy in your face and your best wall to special attacks is gone.

On a side note, chansey users typically run heavy stall tactics that can be annoying sometimes, so bully for them, and let chandelure handle those bastard eggs XD

But that's just my take on the matter...

@ BeaverRoo - You do raise some fair points, but here are my views on SS kingdra

- Politoed has to switch out to let kindgra in. Most ninetales users would send it in as soon as politoed is gone, so that may leave a kingdra with one DD out there in the sun. Switching ninetales back out immediately would allow another pokemon on the sun team to soak up the Outrage, or to handle politoed if the kingdra user switched it out.

- Killing politoed is usually the number one thing to do when handling rain, followed by a switch to the weather in your favor. Easier said than done, but most competent players manage it somehow XD

- Bait the kingdra into using Outrage, and send in something steel-typed if you have it to withstand the hit and... do stuff XD Maybe Paralyse kingdra, change the weather, etc.

- Sashed ghosts with Destiny Bond. Nerfed by hazards, but still functional - best used with forretress to sponge the Outrage and Spin hazards away.

- Shedinja. Rarely used, but effective.

Personally, all my weather teams have one auto-weather if it is available for that monotype, and one wall/tank with manual weather of the same variety. So kindgra usually isn't too threatening to my teams.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Zen

[Neo]

I may be a bit blunt, but the main thing that ST chandy boils down to is common sense. Sure, it can trap you, but ever heard of type coverage? A lot of teams have multiple Pokemon that can deal with Chandy no problem. There's nothing difficult about Chandy if you have the skill to stop it. By now if Chandy is sweeping you, then you might want to seek out a tutor.

[Chrona]

I'm not saying ST Chandy is sweeping anybody. That idea is stupid. ST Chandy isn't meant to sweep. I was more refering to the point that it gets a free kill on switch in. Please dont confuse my words. There is many pokemon that can deal with Chandy however Chandy won't enter the field when they are on.

[49th Parallel]

Welp, since I feel this deserves serious discussion, prepare for an extensive post. So may I begin by stating that I consider Chandelure to be a balanced force in the current metagame. It may well be a dominant force that any and all players should account for, but is and should not be considered "OP" in any sense of the word. Now in order to properly evaluate Chandelure, one must first look into the pros and cons of the Pokemon itself.

Pros:

• Shadow Tag - Of course first and foremost Chandelure is coveted for it's ability, Shadow Tag. Much controversy has been stirred with the release of this ability, and one can understand why. The overall trapping prowess of Wobbuffet, backed by the highest non-Ubers level Special Attack stat in the game? The possibilities of such overwhelming behemoth could be nothing short of phenomenal.
  
• Typing - Though his typing has been for many a mixed bag, it offers many a blessing in certain respects. As a whole, this typing offers resistances and / or immunities to the likes of Normal-, Fire-, Grass-, Ice-, Fighting-, Poison-, Bug-, and Steel-type attacks, amounting to 8 total resistances and immunities of 17 total attacking types. Though some are rather lacklustre in the context of the given metagame (nobody runs Poison-type attacks in OU, that sort of thing), there are some very noteworthy points to this. For instance, a Normal-type immunity grants Chandelure the ability to block Rapid Spin, making him a potent spin-blokcer on more offensively oriented teams. Immunities to Normal- and Fighting-type attacks can almost entirely account for the lack of Choiced Dragonites and Terrakions, all fearing to become promptly trapped and dispatched. What's more, an immunity to Fighting and a resistance to Grass-type attacks allow Chandelure to function as arguably the best offensively oriented Techniloom counter in the tier. More so, resistances to Bug- and Steel-type attacks almost utterly removed the sight of Scizor from Smogon's DW OU, while also deterring the likes of Genesect from strictly U-Turning out.
  
• Movepool - Though by no means Smeargle, Chandelure possesses a movepool that firmly establishes all the staples of an offensive Pokemon. Powerful and practical Dual STAB's are supplied to it in Shadow Ball and Overheat / Fire Blast / Flamethrower, and coverage is granted between Energy Ball and Hidden Power. Chandelure can also make full effect of moves such as Substitute, Calm Mind, and Pain Split to both transcend checks and overcome prominent special walls such as Chansey and Blissey. What's more, it even possesses neat utility moves in Taunt, Will-O-Wisp, Memento, Trick Room, and even Sunny Day to allow it to function well in numerous scenarios.
  

Cons:

• Typing - As mentioned prior, Chandelure's typing is very much a blessing and a curse, and it is a huge point in the matter of his balance in the metagame. First and foremost, his typing makes him weak to every forme of hazard. That is to say that every time he switches in, he will be getting a hefty sum of his HP shaved off unless the player has in some way managed to keep entry hazards off his or her side of the playing field. In itself, this strongly emphasizes the necessity of a Rapid Spin user, being in itself a "check" of sorts to Chandelure. While being potent offensively, Fire / Ghost typing also reveals a couple large flaws, making him susceptible to common Water-, Ground-, and Rock-type attacks. What's more, while his Dual STAB do provide excellent neutral coverage, they naturally reveal counters in very common Pokemon such as Tyranitar and Heatran (as well as somewhat less common ones such as Hydreigon), the former of which can effectively Pursuit trap it and the ladder being able to either shuffle it out or simply attempt to off it with the use of Earth Power. That being said, it can be derived that Chandelure, while not being entirely reliant, requires adequate team support to be utilized to full effect, not unlike almost every other Pokemon.
  
• Shed Shell - The greatest answers are sometimes the most simple, and this case is no different. While Chandelure's ability to trap a problematic Pokemon may indeed be undisputed in this metagame, it can do nothing to combat Shed Shell. Many players who have found their vital Pokemon to be prone to be trapped by the likes of Chandelure and other such trappers have taken to the use of Shed Shell, effectively neutering Chandelure's effectiveness in the battle. What's more, the lack of players prepared to face She Shell-wileding Pokemon is simply staggering, putting enormous pressure on Chandelure to the point of even checking him unknowingly.
  

Now whilst keeping this in mind, I must say I was rather distraught by the lack of originality I saw in my brief endeavors within the Reborn OU ladder regarding the usage of Chandelure. Though I was only on the ladder a good 2 hours or so, I still managed to take the time to shoot 3 alts to the leaderboard, and let me say I was befuddled by the omnipresence of Choice Scarf Chandelure on the ladder. In my limited experience in the tier, I have found the Choice Scarf to be the most underwhelming of the numerous sets Chandelure can effectively run. In my eyes, the largest niche of Choice Scarf Chandelure is to revenge kill Pokemon without fear of mis-prediction, and when isolated, this becomes a rather mediocre reason at best. His middling Speed doesn't really do him any favors in checking some major threats I personally would like to see revenge-killed by my revenge killer, and the sole value of easing prediction is simply insufficient, especially when you already have faith in your predictions. Since I don't wish to clog my message with sets I would rather be playing over Choice Scarf, I won't (simply because I'm sure some of you would much rather skim over the sets of a lowly n00b such as myself), however I will set it aside in a spoiler as seen below. Perhaps they can diversify this bleak Chandelure scene, who knows?

Sets I will likely run before Choice Scarf:

Substitute+Calm Mind

Chandelure (M) @ Leftovers

Trait: Shadow Tag

EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd

Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)

- Substitute

- Calm Mind

- Flamethrower

- Shadow Ball

Now I noticed a comment prior stating, and I quote, "I'm not saying ST Chandy is sweeping anybody. That idea is stupid. ST Chandy isn't meant to sweep.". Now while I don't in any way seek to criticize or any way disrespect Chrona, but I must politely disagree, as SubCM Chandelure is not only hugely effective method of overcoming a trapped Chansey / Blissey outside of the rain, but also a monumental sweeper when brought upon a slower team (perhaps stall, perhaps bulky offensive, who knows?). This being said, the idea of Substitute+Calm Mind has been a firmly established concept since the early days of ADV, and Chandelure is a pinnacle of it's principles. Shadow Tag provides an endless outlet of opportunities to set up, punishing anyone foolhardy enough to lock a Choiced Pokemon into a Normal- or Fighting-type move (or even Chansey, who can't touch Chandelure behind a Substitute). With this in mind, Chandelure can effectively set up a Substitute and Six Calm Minds, proceeding to safely dispatch whatever it was initially trapping. From this point, nothing can safely switch into it. Specially Defensive Tyranitar and Heatran are cleanly 2HKOed by the appropriate move, with offensive variants being consistently OHKOed with a little prior damage. EVs are rather straightforward, with maximum Speed and a Timid nature being necessary to speed tie with opposing Chandelure (as well as to outspeed non-Scarfed Heatran), maximum Special Attack being necessary to hitting the foes it needs to trap but cannot afford to set up on hard from the get-go (looking at the likes of Techniloom mostly, though similar things can be said of CM Virizion, Lucario, and so on), with the remaining EVs tossed to Special Defense to prevent Genesect from effectively breaking your Substitutes with a Download boost.

Substitute

Chandelure (M) @ Life Orb / Leftovers

Trait: Shadow Tag

EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd

Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk) / Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)

- Substitute

- Fire Blast

- Shadow Ball

- Pain Split / Will-O-Wisp / Hidden Power [Fighting]

Though I recognize the evidence of slashitis on this set, but I'm far too lazy to make 3 or 4 separate Subsitute+Something sets, and this one plays generally the same anyway (aside from the obvious item usage, being that Life Orb should be used in tandem with Pain Split, and Leftovers with Will-O-Wisp / Hidden Power Fighting). This set largely focuses on the ability to overcome any semblance of checks or counters by either raw power or clever play. Substitute, as mentioned prior, is quite easy to set up thanks to Shadow Tag. Fire Blast and Shadow Ball provide Chandelure excellent Dual STAB, providing maximum and consistent damage output. From that point on it becomes a matter of personal necessity. Pain Split when used with Life Orb allows Chandelure to remain healthy whilst hitting like a truck, as well as bearing down on Chansey and Blissey (whose large HP stats will become a constant source of nourishment for Chandelure). Will-O-Wisp, in addition to allowing Chandelure to wear down and reliably beat Chansey / Blissey 1v1, also allows him to cripple Tyranitar switch-ins hoping to Pursuit trap it. Hidden Power Fighting, while preventing Chandelure from reliably beating Chansey and Blissey (without Toxic Spikes support, hint hint...), puts an enormous hole is Tyranitar and Heatran switch-in's. However, it should be noted that the use of Hidden Power Fighting results in the loss of a Speed IV, meaning it will in fact lose the speed tie with other Base 80's. Timid becomes less mandatory for this set, as it relies much less on the ability to set up on Pokemon in that speed range (ie.+ Speed Natured Base 70-79's), though it is still preferred, as Pokemon such as Breloom are often split between whether or not they decide to use a + Speed Nature, and the risk is rather great in that respect.

Choice Specs

Chandelure (M) @ Choice Specs

Trait: Shadow Tag

EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd

Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)

- Fire Blast

- Shadow Ball

- Hidden Power [Fighting]

- Energy Ball / Overheat

Basically one of the most dangerous, immediately threatening Pokemon in the tier. This has been a very cool Pokemon for me in winning weather wars and such, because after a Genesect U-Turn worth of damage, this guy can usually KO every weather starter in the tier. As for some examples:

252SpAtk Choice Specs Flash Fire Chandelure (+SAtk) Hidden Power (Fighting) in Sandstorm vs 252HP/192SpDef Leftovers Tyranitar (+SpDef): 68% - 81% (276 - 328 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

252SpAtk Choice Specs Flash Fire Chandelure (+SAtk) Hidden Power (Fighting) in Sandstorm vs 156HP/0SpDef Tyranitar (Neutral): 95% - 113% (364 - 432 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 76% chance to OHKO.

252SpAtk Choice Specs Flash Fire Chandelure (+SAtk) Hidden Power (Fighting) in Sandstorm vs 4HP/0SpDef Tyranitar (Neutral): 106% - 126% (364 - 432 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.

252SpAtk Choice Specs Flash Fire Chandelure (+SAtk) Energy Ball vs 252HP/0SpDef Politoed (Neutral): 81% - 95% (312 - 368 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

252SpAtk Choice Specs Flash Fire Chandelure (+SAtk) Energy Ball vs 4HP/0SpDef Politoed (Neutral): 96% - 114% (312 - 368 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 82% chance to OHKO.

252SpAtk Choice Specs Chandelure (+SAtk) Fire Blast vs 252HP/4SpDef Hippowdon (Neutral): 108% - 127% (456 - 537 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.

252SpAtk Choice Specs Chandelure (+SAtk) Fire Blast in Sun vs 252HP/120SpDef Leftovers Ninetales (+SpDef): 60% - 71% (212 - 249 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

252SpAtk Choice Specs Chandelure (+SAtk) Fire Blast in Sun vs 144HP/0SpDef Leftovers Ninetales (Neutral): 81% - 95% (262 - 309 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

252SpAtk Choice Specs Chandelure (+SAtk) Fire Blast in Sun vs 0HP/0SpDef Leftovers Ninetales (Neutral): 91% - 107% (262 - 309 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 46% chance to OHKO.

I'm assuming I don't need to provide calcs for Abomasnow. Point of the matter is Choice Specs Chandelure effectively nukes everything, and is an excellent tool for winning weather wars (as long as you can be a little patient and scout sets and such first!). Also, yes, I used an assortment of calcs to avoid another extensive paragraph on the matter, beg pardon.

Sunny Day

Chandelure (M) @ Life Orb

Trait: Shadow Tag

EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd

Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk) / Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)

- Sunny Day

- Fire Blast

- SolarBeam

- Shadow Ball / Hidden Power [Ground]

Hate as you will, but Sunny Day Chandelure is an amazing utility for Sun teams, as well as non-weather teams struggling to handle weather-related threats. The idea behind this set is two-fold; in addition to almost guaranteeing Sunny Day on a trapped Pokemon, thusly allowing a second wind for Chloropyl sweepers and such should Ninetales be dispatched (in addition to providing the standard trapping abilities of Chandelure), this set also serves as an excellent lure for weather starters such as Tyranitar and Politoed. For instance, should the opponent switch his or her Pokemon out with the use of Shed Shell, he or she will be completely confident in the switch to the weather starter, assuming that one does not expect the Shed Shell. Sunny Day brings the play to entirely higher dimension, negating the opposing weather condition and proceeding to either force out or decimate the given threat with a monstrous SolarBeam. In the context of a non-weather team, the use of Chandelure is somewhat different. By instinct, a player is less likely to play carefully with his or her weather starter(s) should the opponent lack a weather starter of their own. Thusly, removing a weather starter is a fairly simple task. From that point, you can simply play Chandelure as it is normally played, but instead of directly OHKOing the Ferrothorn (first example that popped into my head), you can instead go for Sunny Day, effectively neutering any possible weather abuse from Pokemon such as Excadrill or Kingdra (again, first thought examples).The choice between Shadow Ball and Hidden Power Ground is between that of consistent results and punishing Heatran, respectively. Obviously Hidden Power Ground is a favourite for Sun teams, as they positively hate Heatran, and Chandelure makes an excellent lure as is.

That being said, I shall conclude by saying that be it as it may that Chandelure is an incredibly deadly force in this metagame, he is not without it's faults, and is fully and totally balanced by the natural ramifications of the tier. I hope that this post has provided some insight, opened some eyes to the entirety of the matter, invigorated some new uses of the Pokemon, and of course any combination of the three. Hope this wasn't too much of chore to read through.

Edit: Admittedly, I didn't make a concentrated effort of reviewing every message prior to this beyond a brief skimming over, but I have since noticed I did reiterate a couple points already presented. If I did, terribly sorry, just consider it a part of an overall synopsis

Edited May 3, 2012 by 49th Parallel

[chasedawg98]

Sucker punch makes quick work of any chandelure. The best set for doing this IMO is a bisharp sucker punch set as your opponent will stay in against it thinking it can get an easy kill why not

[Chrona]

A smart opponent wouldn't stay in and attack on something that can learn sucker punch

[Huggyboo]

I've noticed this whole thread has only really been about passing judgement on Chandelure (excluding i believe the one post with and argument about Kingdra). Now I never was a part of metagame before 5th gen and PO though having played the games since the originals were released her in the states. I've noticed that weather runs on nearly every team. It's also been pointed out by friends who have played competitive before gen 5 that this is a new development, due to dream world abilities making once useless pokemon into sweepers or equally dangerous threats.

Now i'm not saying get rid of weather, that would be completely stupid, nor am i saying you need to use the smogon rules of no weather and swift swim, sand force, chlorophyl, but i am stating that due to the recently emergent abilities and battle styles, some pokemon seem to be too strong in weather conditions. Swift swimming kingdra, was an argument an earlier poster brought up. A while back you couldn't see sun team without a flare blitzing, sheer forced darmanitan, and almost ever sand team someone runs into will have a landorus, garchomp, or mainly excadrill.

For the sake of my argument i will focus on excadrill. Just a plain old, normal excadrill, already has sweeper potential. Good Hp makes up for terrible defenses, speed is average but attack is good, while no need for special attack can let you make him adamant or jolly easily. The normal ability of mold breaker gives him the chance to wreck any levitators (like bronzong) or something that would try to avoid this mole. However in sand it's two other abilities are active that just, make it a bit of an unfair opponent i will say in my own words. Sand Rush doubles it's already okay speed, going from and average of 220's to over 400, something that even a jolly aerodactyl can't outspeed. This is combination with most likely a max attacked adamant excadrill could probably take out almost anything it will come against in one hit. Unless you get a lucky crit on you mach punching conkeldurr, i can't think of much that would bring it down in time. Sand Force, though doesn't do anything for his speed, will give 33% boost to Ground, Rock, and Steel types. Excadrill gets stab from two of those, and most commonly will run Earthquake, Rock Slide and X-scissor, for coverage and thanks to those moves will almost OHKO your whole team unless you have major bulks or get a lucky miss.

Now, despite having never seen an excadrill outside of a weather team, I don't want to come off as saying "Excadrill is OP, make it ubers", but i believe in sand it is kind of overpowered, much like other pokemon i'm sure you have all seen. Which is why my argument stands that we need to re-evalute tiers with a notion towards weather and weather abilities, not as a whole, but for specific pokemon.