Cotton Candy Too strong?

[Kithros]

...Wouldn't...a player be able to choose however they want to play? I, as a player, should be able to choose to use cotton candies however I like to use them. The recent decision to change cotton candy to half-revive, feel like a farther penalty for players, especially more causal players, when the game is already so difficult. That's all I can say about it.

Think about it this way - what if the game started with you having every pokemon in the game in your PC with 1000 rare candies in your inventory, every TM, and the game had no level limits per badge - do you think that the game would be better if it worked this way? I could use the exact same logic for this - anyone who didn't want to use certain pokemon could choose not to use them, if they didn't want to use the rare candies they could choose not to use them, if they wanted to have level limits they could choose not to level past that level etc. - the game would still become incredibly cheap in spite of having the option of not using these features though, and people would never really come to an agreement of what is/isn't fair to use - that's (part of) the job of the game developer to decide.

It's a bit counterintuitive, but a bad feature in a game is worse than a feature not existing, even if the players have the option of completely ignoring it - psychology isn't so simple that you can treat it this way. People don't want to have to handicap themselves - to anyone who likes being competitive games become kind of pointless once you have to handicap yourself in these ways, but playing it optimally is also so stupid that they just stop playing the game altogether (there are a lot of games I've stopped playing because of a feature that I thought was so stupid but necessary for optimal play). It's like how playing a game with cheats will completely ruin a game, even if you have the option to choose when you use the cheats or not - as soon as you start cheating the game's already pretty much finished.

EDIT: Oh, you responded to my post before - I guess this post is largely irrelevant then since it's covering mostly the same things. I think if you wanted to have an easier way to play through the game that there are better ways to accomplish that though - it would be a lot better for the game if there were just an easy mode for playing the game through rather than have game mechanics that people have to decide for themselves whether they're fair to use or not - an explicit normal or easy difficulty mode would solve this problem in a much better way.

Edited May 29, 2015 by Kithros

[AllymyMan]

I am personally indifferent on the strength of Cotton Candies. I just remember using them for the first time recently and being slightly perplexed at them recovering to full health, only because for the longest time you could only purchase super potions (this was before ultra potions) and here we are with a purchasable max revive that from a logical stand point makes any potion save for when being cost conscious useless.

[Eclipse Blaze]

Think about it this way - what if the game started with you having every pokemon in the game in your PC with 1000 rare candies in your inventory, every TM, and the game had no level limits per badge - do you think that the game would be better if it worked this way? I could use the exact same logic for this - anyone who didn't want to use certain pokemon could choose not to use them, if they didn't want to use the rare candies they could choose not to use them, if they wanted to have level limits they could choose not to level past that level etc. - the game would still become incredibly cheap in spite of having the option of not using these features though, and people would never really come to an agreement of what is/isn't fair to use - that's (part of) the job of the game developer to decide.

It's a bit counterintuitive, but a bad feature in a game is worse than a feature not existing, even if the players have the option of completely ignoring it - psychology isn't so simple that you can treat it this way. People don't want to have to handicap themselves - to anyone who likes being competitive games become kind of pointless once you have to handicap yourself in these ways, but playing it optimally is also so stupid that they just stop playing the game altogether (there are a lot of games I've stopped playing because of a feature that I thought was so stupid but necessary for optimal play). It's like how playing a game with cheats will completely ruin a game, even if you have the option to choose when you use the cheats or not - as soon as you start cheating the game's already pretty much finished.

EDIT: Oh, you responded to my post before - I guess this post is largely irrelevant then since it's covering mostly the same things. I think if you wanted to have an easier way to play through the game that there are better ways to accomplish that though - it would be a lot better for the game if there were just an easy mode for playing the game through rather than have game mechanics that people have to decide for themselves whether they're fair to use or not - an explicit normal or easy difficulty mode would solve this problem in a much better way.

I actually understand this comment. This is why I allow a certain amount of lack of options, because it makes the game feel that much more epic. But, at a certain point it becomes too much of that. My point is that making cotton candies weaker is taking it too far. Not just a little. Way too far. I do have a quite ingenious, yet simple idea, however. Make a dialogue from the candy shop clerk saying that the cotton candy making machine is broken. Make it available after a certain point in the game. Certain flags should have to be checked. This even adds to the epically realistic feel of the game I referred to in my previous comment. I'm quite partial to this kind of thing, actually. To take it out of "early" game even I would personally recommend, not argue against. Just to weaken them altogether is stupid. I mean you basically just have revives that add a bit of happiness at that point. It's not worth the trouble. An extra 4500 pokedollars per revive just for a few happiness points is not worth it.

[AllymyMan]

I actually understand this comment. This is why I allow a certain amount of lack of options, because it makes the game feel that much more epic. But, at a certain point it becomes too much of that. My point is that making cotton candies weaker is taking it too far. Not just a little. Way to far. I do have a idea , however. Make a dialogue from the candy shop clerk saying that the cotton candy making machine is broken. make it available after a certain point in the game. I actually am quite partial to this kind of thing actually. to take it out of "early game even i would personally recommend, not argue against. Just to weaken them altogether is stupid, though. I mean you basically just have revives that add a bit of happiness. It's not worth the trouble. An extra 4500 pokedollars per revive just for a few happiness points is not worth it.

I agree completely that cotton candies are in the game too early, and maybe later on there can be some new item that is the spiritual successor to the old cotton candy that revives to full, but with at least seven or more gym battles left to go it is still to soon to have access to purchasable max revives imo

[UnderwaterPhantom]

Think about it this way - what if the game started with you having every pokemon in the game in your PC with 1000 rare candies in your inventory, every TM, and the game had no level limits per badge - do you think that the game would be better if it worked this way? I could use the exact same logic for this - anyone who didn't want to use certain pokemon could choose not to use them, if they didn't want to use the rare candies they could choose not to use them, if they wanted to have level limits they could choose not to level past that level etc. - the game would still become incredibly cheap in spite of having the option of not using these features though, and people would never really come to an agreement of what is/isn't fair to use - that's (part of) the job of the game developer to decide.

It's a bit counterintuitive, but a bad feature in a game is worse than a feature not existing, even if the players have the option of completely ignoring it - psychology isn't so simple that you can treat it this way. People don't want to have to handicap themselves - to anyone who likes being competitive games become kind of pointless once you have to handicap yourself in these ways, but playing it optimally is also so stupid that they just stop playing the game altogether (there are a lot of games I've stopped playing because of a feature that I thought was so stupid but necessary for optimal play). It's like how playing a game with cheats will completely ruin a game, even if you have the option to choose when you use the cheats or not - as soon as you start cheating the game's already pretty much finished.

EDIT: Oh, you responded to my post before - I guess this post is largely irrelevant then since it's covering mostly the same things. I think if you wanted to have an easier way to play through the game that there are better ways to accomplish that though - it would be a lot better for the game if there were just an easy mode for playing the game through rather than have game mechanics that people have to decide for themselves whether they're fair to use or not - an explicit normal or easy difficulty mode would solve this problem in a much better way.

Yeah, I was confused for a bit there until your edit showed up.

Sure, I can plan my strategies better and work harder at it, but I honestly don't have that kind of patience. I'm not too sure if I want 'easy' mode? But at the same time, cotton candies as they were, helped a lot. If we have an option to choose between what kind of cotton candies we want, I supposed that can be considered as 'easy mode', that would be very nice. Regardless, I'm iffy with having cotton candies as plain revives now, because the game is already so difficult. I do not mind the difficulty, that's the part of the game, but some of us just wanted to get through it. And some of us, wanted to play -with- the difficulty. That's the part of the fun! We can play however we wanted to, without, you know, changing the game mechanic as you mentioned.

Not too keen on changing my usual strategies without max revive'd cotton candies in ep15 though.

[Eclipse Blaze]

I agree completely that cotton candies are in the game too early, and maybe later on there can be some new item that is the spiritual successor to the old cotton candy that revives to full, but with at least seven or more gym battles left to go it is still to soon to have access to purchasable max revives imo

7 gyms left or not, I believe level 70+ is plenty high enough level to warrant giving players an option to buy max revives. I think they should become available as soon as you are preparing to head torward Calcenon City. It should be available in Agate Circus. The cotton candy machine in the Obsidia Ward's candy shop should be "fixed' when the story progresses to the point when you can normally access Reborn City again in what is meant to be possible in the future full version of the game. Otherwise, make it available only in agate circus. To ask for an easy mode version and a hard mode version of the game is asking to much of Ame at the moment, tough. So, in case anyone is thinking it, just remind her when the game is finished In 50 years. XD

[Ghost]

Considering that the availability of hyper potions, the HM Fly, and other high tiered items are unavailable at this point the Cotton Candy is not something to go ballistic about and is a good idea. In reality the game is already far into it, we have beaten 12 out of the 18 gyms, so more than halfway. The addition of the Cotton Candy item was perfectly OK in story and progress terms since there are no max revives to date.

I am a half casual half strategist, main focus is to go straight for the kill. But I get engaged in the story if it's a good one so I can be in a rush at times. But if that doesn't work right away Cotton Candies are right up my alley to get my team going. It's not as if the item gives you an insta-win; it takes just as long to beat a gym even without the item, sometimes even longer. The gyms are a hit or miss in this game; either you sweep them like I did Terra's, or takes several tries to beat like I did Charlotte's.

Edited May 29, 2015 by Ghost

[NameNotFound]

Frankly, I've barly experienced ''OMG this is so hard, somebody pls help me I can't pass this'' feeling in reborn. I remember struggling against pulse tangrowth, but everything after that bar Charlotte was easy for me. I'm playing reborn because of the storyline, but I do like the difficulty it offers (since the original games are screaming ''COME, competitive battling wants you'' nowdays). I used maybe 5 potions in my playthrough so I can't really say anything smart, but as soon as I saw price of those candies I decided I won't buy any of them. I won't waste that much money on a revive, idc if it's regular or max, since I probably won't even use it. If it really breaks the game wouldn't bumping up its price solve the problem? Like 15000-20000 pokedollars.

Edited May 29, 2015 by NameNotFound

[Ghost]

Pulse Tangrowth was a piece of cake on my end. Charlotte, not so much. It was that fire field, man, I'm telling you. But everything else seemed plenty ok to beat, I didn't even use cotton candies till way later since I was all like "too expensive therefore no". I just earned money lol. Cotton Candies can easily be turned into normal revives and it will be fine as long as they are replaced with max revives.

Edited May 29, 2015 by Ghost

[Anthony810]

Peronally Cotton Candy IS useful. I always come prepared for every gym battle with a stack of Cotton Candy.

[Eclipse Blaze]

Peronally Cotton Candy IS useful. I always come prepared for every gym battle with a stack of Cotton Candy.

A stack of cotton candies for a single gym battle.

..........

Whatever makes your gameplay fun, man. I like them, but even if I did want to use them, I would probably limit myself to 2.

Of course, I have a personal principal about feeling like a "B word that I probably can't say outside of Reborn Nightclub" if I use one in the middle of league/rival battles. Only super bosses and occasional revives during meteor raids and whatnot are what I need them for. Full HP heal in fell swoop is gonna be more desired during super boss fights like the garchomp on top of

Mt. Pyrous, Arceus, and the more difficult Pulse pokemon like Avalugg and perhaps Muk. More trouble with Pulse Avalugg with Recover and Ice Field lowering the power of fire type moves. XD

[Vinny]

I guess all I can say is: The point is that the Cotton Candy was never supposed to work like that, anyway.

"Broken" items won't stay "broken". That's it.

Although, if it still costs 6600$ after the fix, then it's too much. Just saying...

[Anthony810]

A stack of cotton candies for a single gym battle.

..........

Whatever makes your gameplay fun, man. I like them, but even if I did want to use them, I would probably limit myself to 2.

Of course, I have a personal principal about feeling like a "B word that I probably can't say outside of Reborn Nightclub" if I use one in the middle of league/rival battles. Only super bosses and occasional revives during meteor raids and whatnot are what I need them for. Full HP heal in fell swoop is gonna be more desired during super boss fights like the garchomp on top of

Mt. Pyrous, Arceus, and the more difficult Pulse pokemon like Avalugg and perhaps Muk. More trouble with Pulse Avalugg with Recover and Ice Field lowering the power of fire type moves. XD

Singles I don't need them but doubles is a different story.

[dondon151]

Hate to break it to you, but it was supposed to be like a normal revive all along and has since been fixed.

You guys didn't notice for 14 episodes until I pointed it out

I actually prefer half HP revival; it makes it easier to manipulate HP range.

[pyrromanis]

Cotton Candies are OP that early cause they can heal more than any potion available at that point! I remember a lot of times that I let my pokemon faint on purpose to bring it back with full hp rather than healing it with super potion or an ice cream.

Edited May 29, 2015 by pyrromanis

[Imperial]

This debate is a bit useless since you can get Max Revives for free at the Game Corner Lottery, you just need 2 digits that match. So you can just switch the date on your computer to get infinite free Max Revives

[Courtesy]

here is my own feelings on things.

If difficulty is too tightly controlled we lose many of the things that allow our community to have such diversity: including the ability to do monotype runs for many of us. Not all of us are the best players of all time: if you take away some of the advantages that are available to us, we crash and burn. I'd be very unhappy to see cotton candy go, because having options that are powerful is important to players having control over their own progression.

Buffing it's cost to 10000 or 20000 pokedollars is better than just destroying it's existance entirely, because then we'd think before we pop one.

[Howin]

here is my own feelings on things.

If difficulty is too tightly controlled we lose many of the things that allow our community to have such diversity: including the ability to do monotype runs for many of us. Not all of us are the best players of all time: if you take away some of the advantages that are available to us, we crash and burn. I'd be very unhappy to see cotton candy go, because having options that are powerful is important to players having control over their own progression.

Buffing it's cost to 10000 or 20000 pokedollars is better than just destroying it's existance entirely, because then we'd think before we pop one.

Yes but the idea of improvement counters all this. Ever thought you're not the best or that good of a player purely because you've never HAD to improve in the first place? If you crash and burn (hit the bottom) then all you can and will do is get better.

[Courtesy]

That's a silly argument though: at the end of the day, cotton candy will not "win" anything we don't already cheese. People will still destiny bond El's ditto, they'll still cheese field effects, etc. If people don't want to improve, they will always find a way. Removing tools from ones belt only stimulates improvement to a certain extent though. I make stronger teams without being able to lean back on left-overs, hyper potions, and all the super competitive hold items. That does indeed make us better: and players have to do a LOT of improvement if they ever hope to advance past shade.

But after a certain extent, you are less attempting to make players improve, and more request them to tear down trees with their bare hands. Even though it's a task that can be succeeded at, one has to ask at some point "are we having fun?". And if you reduce the tools available to players too much, than the answer for more and more people will be no. I love this fan project to death, despite how late I've joined your community, it does not reduce my love. I don't think reducing the effectiveness of that item is the best choice though: re-evaluating it's price, to create a feeling of exclusivity whenever one is used or even purchased, would better create fun and add difficult choices for the player (Do I buy cotton candy? Do I buy this useful battle item from the market instead? Decisions!)

Presently cotton candy is too cheap: Even though players could just run around using pay-day if they desired, raising the cost would better balance it's effect than just chopping the item down into redundancy-ville. Players can just as easily change system times and spam the lottery if they desire grinding items: pricing has quite a bit of effect on what items players want to use. Let us never forget pokemon gold's Lemonade.

[Guest]

Just saying, if Ame notices this thread and takes Cotton Candy out of the game for E16, I'm never going to forgive any of you

;-;

[Howin]

That's a silly argument though: at the end of the day, cotton candy will not "win" anything we don't already cheese. People will still destiny bond El's ditto, they'll still cheese field effects, etc. If people don't want to improve, they will always find a way. Removing tools from ones belt only stimulates improvement to a certain extent though. I make stronger teams without being able to lean back on left-overs, hyper potions, and all the super competitive hold items. That does indeed make us better: and players have to do a LOT of improvement if they ever hope to advance past shade.

But after a certain extent, you are less attempting to make players improve, and more request them to tear down trees with their bare hands. Even though it's a task that can be succeeded at, one has to ask at some point "are we having fun?". And if you reduce the tools available to players too much, than the answer for more and more people will be no. I love this fan project to death, despite how late I've joined your community, it does not reduce my love. I don't think reducing the effectiveness of that item is the best choice though: re-evaluating it's price, to create a feeling of exclusivity whenever one is used or even purchased, would better create fun and add difficult choices for the player (Do I buy cotton candy? Do I buy this useful battle item from the market instead? Decisions!)

Presently cotton candy is too cheap: Even though players could just run around using pay-day if they desired, raising the cost would better balance it's effect than just chopping the item down into redundancy-ville. Players can just as easily change system times and spam the lottery if they desire grinding items: pricing has quite a bit of effect on what items players want to use. Let us never forget pokemon gold's Lemonade.

I fail to see how self improvement is silly. Just because there's other ways to "cheese" things doesn't suddenly mean two wrongs make a right. You say reduce the tools too much but this is just one little thing, so I don't think that argument really works either. As for price adjustment, I can agree with you there maybe.. Or limitations on how many you can buy in general through the entire game but in the end I don't see the removal or correction of this item as a big deal personally. Edited May 29, 2015 by Howin

[Eclipse Blaze]

I fail to see how self improvement is silly. Just because there's other ways to "cheese" things doesn't suddenly mean two wrongs make a right. You say reduce the tools too much but this is just one little thing, so I don't think that argument really works either. As for price adjustment, I can agree with you there maybe.. Or limitations on how many you can buy in general through the entire game but in the end I don't see the removal of this correction as a big deal personally.

As I said before, cotton candy is not a little thing. It IS too much of a thing to change. Also, the point was that there are plenty of other ways for players to improve themselves. Keep cotton candies the way they are won't impede that much, if at all. As for it never being intended to be full hp revival, all I can say is that it is the Devs' call. They can just as easily say, "Hey, I know this is what we said, but we changed our minds just now. This is what we are gonna do now." Also, my idea of "breaking" the cotton candy machine in the candy shop in earlier parts of the game is still worth considering. I say just keep cotton candies the way they are and make them available in Agate Cicus once you are ready to go to Calcenon. So basically, right before you prepare to face meteor in the caves where Sirius's Chandelure attempts to burn away the chartacter's soul. Just make a couple of them hidden items right before the arceus fight. Finally, I should say that I have changed my clock for over a month's time and never got a single max revive from the game corner lottery.

[Sunriseinnovator]

Um...I only managed to find the stand in the circus after reading this topic. Until now, I completely ignored its existence. Now if you would think stocking up on Cotton Candy is a good idea, well wait until the AI uses it to revive 1 of its fainted aces and screw your team all over again...shivers...

That said, the only difficulty missing is the AI unable to revive their pokes...

[Eclipse Blaze]

Um...I only managed to find the stand in the circus after reading this topic. Until now, I completely ignored its existence. Now if you would think stocking up on Cotton Candy is a good idea, well wait until the AI uses it to revive 1 of its fainted aces and screw your team all over again...shivers...

That said, the only difficulty missing is the AI unable to revive their pokes...

I accept that challege if Fern is the one to do it. He is enough of a cheap little excuse making jerk to do it, too. I want Fern to use revives later on. Might make it more interesting. My personal policy is to only use up to what the AI uses and no more than that. Though, that might just be me. AIs never revive so I never felt the need to. Also, it would be mre realistic, since even if cotton cadies ae nerfed, they still revive pokemon. If we can revive, then why can't they? Some people in here reading this post might want to beat me within an inch of my life and hang me up by my entrails now, but I stand by my point (for better or for worse...). No seriously, Plese don't kill me. Pretty please?

[ArmoredGuardian]

Meh. Who cares about them... if they're there, then they're there. Simple.