Strengthening R7 Moderation

[mde2001]

The purpose of this announcement is pretty simple. Recently, there has been an influx of borderline R7 content in the lobby on the server (for those of who don't know, R7 is the rule that states there is to be no sexually explicit content).

While the occasional joke isn't a huge problem, the level that has been getting to is unacceptable. Some questions to ask yourself before you say something on the server include:

- Is what I'm saying above PG 13?

- Is what I'm saying going to make someone else feel uncomfortable?

- Is the sexual content dominating talk in the main?

If the answer to any of these questions is yes, then please refrain from posting it.

As a community we aim to create an environment safe for people of a wide variety of ages and interests, and therefore require a certain level of cleanliness when it comes to sexual content. Some things that have been said in the lobby recently are unacceptable for a forum/ server that caters to some people as young as 11 or 12.

Part of (but not all of) the issue we're trying to address here is the quantity of "kinky" jokes in response to perfectly innocent statements. While these aren't inherently sexually explicit, the regularity and multitude of them is a problem, and some people feel very uncomfortable after they've been made. While we aren't going to give out warning points for jokes like these, we do encourage people who are making them to think more carefully before making them, and consider the fact that others may not find them at all amusing.

If any of the Staff feel like you are going over the line, they will approach you via PM. If you are approached and asked to tone down the borderline content, please respect this. If you continue after being asked to stop, more severe consequences will be considered.

If you feel uncomfortable because of comments being made, please contact an online Staff member and they will handle the issue for you. Don't feel bad doing this, it is important that you feel safe and comfortable on the server and if we can help you feel more comfortable, we want to do that.

For those of you who aren't able to contain your R7 instincts, we'd like to remind you of the Abyss, where this content is more acceptable.

We're not trying to be buzzkills here, but we do want to ensure everyone is able to be on the server without feeling uncomfortable from the inappropriate content.

- Reborn Auth

[Shing]

Good to see this rule get more strictly. I felt that this should be talked more earlier. Good to see this rule taken up anyway.

I guess people is going to use abyss more, which is cool. Through change that room pic, it's too scary ;-;

[Spineblade]

While I'm not certain of the exact level of content to which this refers, I'll be sure to familiarise myself with the new updates. Thanks for the news, mde.

[Ojama Yellow]

based mde coming through

this is actually a great idea because r7 was not being enforced enough imo

[Shadow Roxas]

lowkey am glad this is getting enforced more

\o/

[firewidow]

Want to keep the Forums as friendly and inviting as Possible.

[Ironbound]

It's indeed a good thing to be more stringent with regard to explicit or lewd comments and jokes. While I do not presuppose to criticize them or their makers, I do think it better for Reborn's main chatroom to be a cleaner, more comfortable place for all of us. Call me a prude if you wish, but I am straitlaced when it comes to certain things.

[Shamitako]

- Is what I'm saying going to make someone else feel uncomfortable?

RIP Lexi forever and always

RIP lenient R7-ness, you will be sorely missed, probably, maybe... Meh I don't touch main anyways

Actually, no, I should be serious here. If this change had been made sooner, I wouldn't still be here. Part of why I've stuck around so long is because of the very free levels of expression Reborn has afforded me on multiple subjects, one of which being sexual discussions. One of the things I like about this community is how much we're willing to let people say or do what they want, so long as they aren't being directly hurtful. And yes we have our limits, we're not 4chan after all, but we've never been especially strict

TL;DR Part of what I like about Reborn is how not-strict it can be, so making things stricter is not something I'm a fan of

[Felicity]

To be frank, it's all well and good to advocate the abyss for more immature discussions but the spontaneous nature of those conversations or remarks mean that you can't simply say "hey everyone hop into abyss" without it draining one hell of a chunk of the fun from it. Furthermore even if one was to constantly be in the abyss if one made those remarks there in reference to what someone said in main, where most conversations take place and thus a bountiful place for joke opportunities, you'd then get the moral issue of whether people are talking behind one's back. That issue makes me uncomfortable.

which brings my point around to how I don't understand the vague parameters set here and how it feels like it's meant to be a set of catch-alls to please everyone, when it doesn't. I've been guilty of pushing boundaries if not outright going past them only to be reigned in. I've been notified of the no-goes that auth specifically zoom in on due to their serious nature and so avoided those subjects from then on. So a balance was struck between cracking a joke and starting a conversation or letting things lie.

With these parameters I'm going to be sat wondering if I can say a good percentage of my areas colloquialisms because I'm not sure if they're "PG13" which really is a terrible way to put it when there are people who have dedicated jobs to decide what passes as that in many different countries. With that second rule, it's so massively context dependent. There could be a lobby of people who are fine with an academic discussion about the history of why tentacles began being used in hentai or a lobby of people who get squeamish when I mention I'm stroking my pussy cat. People who get offended when I say I killed the french antagonist in this new game I got. People drop in and out all the time in reborn and with the size of the community now you may know what the majority are ok with but you could never be sure about that other minority of newcomers. Then you get a case of people not seeing the point of being around and leaving outright because they just couldn't speak their mind properly.

The last one I can understand, a conversation can have many tangents and it's best to stop a lot of conversations if it's branching into something genuinely inappropriate but then there's the question of what is inappropriate according to these rules?

If you want to crack down on R7, fine. I can see why and accept it even if it will push me into lurkdom even more. Rules are rules. Just make sure I know whether something I say could be a landmine, ok? Yes that's not an easy job with how varied these conversations can be but, well, that's the responsibility you took on when you started this really.

[mde2001]

First of these responses are just coming from me whereas the announcement was from the auth team as a whole, so my responses here will be in line with the auth policy (I hope) but not represent the collective decisions and vetting of the auth.

Lexi, I can understand how this might seem like limiting your freedom of expression surrounding sexual discussions, which is why these changes really only apply to the main. We want to create an area where whose who don't want to be around the more mature content are able to, but really its up to the room owner of any back channels to decide whether or not they want to crack down on it too and the Abyss is always free of these rules. So it wasn't our aim to limit this discussion from being on the website at all, it was to just keep the main clear of it.

Dobby, you're right about the phrase PG 13, I probably shouldn't have used it as it varies wildly from country to country, but when writing this up I really wasn't sure about a better term. You're also correct on us trying to keep it pretty vague, as the issue we're trying to address isn't that specific (with the exception of the "kinky" bit). Generally, unless if is what would have gotten you a sexual content (minor/ moderate/ major) warning before, an auth member will approach you if you've crossed the line. This won't be an official warning or anything, but it should give you some idea of at least initially what kind of things are covered. There's only so specific we can be, as we don't know every borderline joke that has been made/ will be made, so we can only give you the general idea of what kind of things are covered. Sorry for this lack of specificity, it is a fair problem.

And as a general thing, this topic wasn't meant as an attack on anyone or to make them feel unwelcome. All of you who feel impacted upon by this rule make wonderful contributions to the server/ forums in other ways and just because we're trying to make the lobby a bit more family friendly shouldn't feel like we don't value them. That really wasn't the intention at all.

[ZEL]

I hope it's okay if I repeat a question I have asked in the lobby earlier. I did get an answer but I forgot to save the quote and I like being able to go back to auth statements about things, so having it in a permanent forum post would be nice:

From how I understood things after this announcement was discussed in the chat earlier:

Obviously it's not okay to make jokes at the expense of people who we know to be uncomfortable with them, and we shouldn't make them towards people whose feelings about it we don't know, but it is still allowed to joke around with people who we know to be okay with it?

Or are you looking to just completely ban jokes with innuendo from the lobby alltogether?

I asked this on the server earlier and from how I understood the response, r7 jokes can still be made in the lobby given that the people involved in them are fine with them?

I would miss some of the regular humor between me and some of my friends, because like Dobby said, lobby is where most of the action is, and being forced into backchannels for the purpose of one or two stray innuendos would be more annoying than it's worth.

Retreating to the abyss for longer conversations, that's okay, but it doesn't really work if I just wanna quickly poke fun at something a friend said.

edit: also my typo game is too strong, rip

Edited March 14, 2016 by Ama

[Tacos]

I'll be honest that I don't 100% know all the information considering the fact that I was not at the meeting when this was decided, but I'm fairly certain it includes jokes involving sexual content at all. While the joke may not offend the feelings of someone it's said to, it doesn't change the fact that for some people, discussion on topics such as that can make them squeamish and uncomfortable. While I don't spend much time on the server, it's commonly understood that main chat is a place for everyone to talk and have fun within reason and within the boundaries of the Community Rules. The topics discussed in main shouldn't be only limited to sexual content, and it doesn't seem fair for behavior that could easily be rule-breaking on the server, to continue in real-time and make other members uncomfortable in lobby. That's the whole reason we have this abyss. We're not restricting you to bottle up every sexual thought or idea in your head. The abyss allows you to release these ideas and thoughts without being a detriment to the members of the lobby who are discomforted by that sort of talk. While it may be inconvenient to move the conversation into the other room, it's more inconvenient for it to continue in lobby chat and disrupt the conversation as well as put other members in an uncomfortable situation.

Now to give you sort of an example, let's say the discussion has managed to shift to eroges. If the topic remains clean, perhaps only discussing what you enjoy about the game, or your lack of enjoyment, and no one seems to be complaining, you're in the clear. But if you begin to go into detail about the content of the game and the sexual events occurring, regardless of whether or not a report has been received, there will be reaction from the server mods.

I hope I was able to clear this up for some, as it's truly the best I can do despite my absence from the meeting.

[Neo]

Good shit, y'all. Including folks in your sexual conversation when they haven't given indication that they're willing to participate is sus. Backchannels historically haven't had rules, so y'all ain't hurtin' for places to talk.

[Felicity]

I'll be honest that I don't 100% know all the information considering the fact that I was not at the meeting when this was decided, but I'm fairly certain it includes jokes involving sexual content at all. While the joke may not offend the feelings of someone it's said to, it doesn't change the fact that for some people, discussion on topics such as that can make them squeamish and uncomfortable. While I don't spend much time on the server, it's commonly understood that main chat is a place for everyone to talk and have fun within reason and within the boundaries of the Community Rules. The topics discussed in main shouldn't be only limited to sexual content, and it doesn't seem fair for behavior that could easily be rule-breaking on the server, to continue in real-time and make other members uncomfortable in lobby. That's the whole reason we have this abyss. We're not restricting you to bottle up every sexual thought or idea in your head. The abyss allows you to release these ideas and thoughts without being a detriment to the members of the lobby who are discomforted by that sort of talk. While it may be inconvenient to move the conversation into the other room, it's more inconvenient for it to continue in lobby chat and disrupt the conversation as well as put other members in an uncomfortable situation.

Now to give you sort of an example, let's say the discussion has managed to shift to eroges. If the topic remains clean, perhaps only discussing what you enjoy about the game, or your lack of enjoyment, and no one seems to be complaining, you're in the clear. But if you begin to go into detail about the content of the game and the sexual events occurring, regardless of whether or not a report has been received, there will be reaction from the server mods.

I hope I was able to clear this up for some, as it's truly the best I can do despite my absence from the meeting.

Good shit, y'all. Including folks in your sexual conversation when they haven't given indication that they're willing to participate is sus. Backchannels historically haven't had rules, so y'all ain't hurtin' for places to talk.

You two are rarely ever on the server to my knowledge so let me clarify the typical situation for the server and backchannels right now.

Everyone is in main chatting away amicably most of the time with occasional pauses between conversations as people come and go, someone might speak a word in a back channel of 5-7 people. It's 5-7 people on a good day even with the intro of autojoin. There is a huge difference between main activity and back channel activity and this isn't going to get people to close that gap. It'll drive people into lurking more than anything. And before you say it's up to us to get talking, people have tried. In the abyss, the nightclub and Arcana rush, 3 of the back channels I frequent and 3 of the more popular are still dead as all hell.

My point is, back channels are great in theory, shit in practice. Which means anyone with a less than squeaky clean sense of humour still end up shafted and pushed away.

EDIT

Psa to any of the people above who claim they were uncomfortable with R7 jokes, if ever I toe the line on that front most of the reactions are "Dobby pls", which really, really isn't a good way to get across that you are uncomfortable. For the longest time I thought it was a jokey reply and it's incredibly frustrating to see everyone turn around and say they want more R7 jokes cracked down on when you hardly said anything in the first place.

[Neo]

You two are rarely ever on the server to my knowledge so let me clarify the typical situation for the server and backchannels right now.

Everyone is in main chatting away amicably most of the time with occasional pauses between conversations as people come and go, someone might speak a word in a back channel of 5-7 people. It's 5-7 people on a good day even with the intro of autojoin. There is a huge difference between main activity and back channel activity and this isn't going to get people to close that gap. It'll drive people into lurking more than anything. And before you say it's up to us to get talking, people have tried. In the abyss, the nightclub and Arcana rush, 3 of the back channels I frequent and 3 of the more popular are still dead as all hell.

My point is, back channels are great in theory, shit in practice. Which means anyone with a less than squeaky clean sense of humour still end up shafted and pushed away.

Fam, I've been here for just about five years. I know how it works. Y'all not being able to hold a conversation ain't a good enough reason to include people in sexual conversation without them indicating whether they want to or not. Keepin' this place accessible is precisely how became the Reborn you know today. This is just furthering that.

[Dark Desire]

While the occasional joke isn't a huge problem, the level that has been getting to is unacceptable. Some questions to ask yourself before you say something on the server include:

- Is what I'm saying above PG 13?

- Is what I'm saying going to make someone else feel uncomfortable?

-Is the sexual content dominating talk in the main?

We're not all out banning sexual jokes, but please do keep them tame, anything overt will end up in a warning from an auth, and should not be dominating main as stated

Most importantly, please think before you make a joke about someone in chat, it's been a problem where people's requests of not being a target of these have not been respected

[Darvan Korematsu]

Y'know I find a sweet difficulty in this entire PSA as a whole particularly to the fact mde says this isn't going to be actually enforced like I am guessing it probably should.

The biggest problem I find with this is the whole "11 and 12 year olds accessing our forum" deal, because you'd need to take a moment to actually think. DO these kids even know what we're implying? Odds are they're probably not since most around that age take what they see at face value. Plus most of those who make the jokes are old/mature/intelligent to wrap our head around it because we know what a metaphor is.

But man when you flat out state there won't be any warning points given out for these violations I doubt it'll stop them from actually doing it. Like PG-13 is interpreted in many different ways. Friggin Roger Rabbit had all sorts of weird non-PG shit in it yet it got the PG slapped on for obvious PG-13 stuff.

I'm sorry but if you get offended by talks of the Dr. Pepper (DP) stuff then please move on. Unless there's direct obvious and blatant disregard for the rule, then ignore it in my opinion. This wasn't really a topic that needed an urgent PSA unless you actually tightened the belt on R7 violation rules.

[Felicity]

Fam, I've been here for just about five years. I know how it works. Y'all not being able to hold a conversation ain't a good enough reason to include people in sexual conversation without them indicating whether they want to or not. Keepin' this place accessible is precisely how became the Reborn you know today. This is just furthering that.

I get you've been here for a while which Is why I'll point out that you should know exactly how much this place has changed in that time. That being said, the server isn't immune to change and I know you're rarely on, unless you want to prove otherwise. That being said, I don't think you know how things are and you should maybe take a look around sometime. Get a better grasp of the server dynamic.

Yes, this place remaining accessible is important but I'm now wondering whether or not the steps being taken to accomplish this is having diminishing returns at the cost of putting other members out. The community is growing faster and faster, do the floodgates need to be opened this extra inch when it causes as much strife with one minority as it did with another? I think I feel safe in saying that if people didn't enjoy toeing the R7 line themselves then most were probably ambivalent about it. These steps didn't have to be taken, this community isn't a group of mindless monkeys, if one asks politely for someone to stop ina serious manner, then nine times out of ten, the jokes will stop. These rules didn't need to be and were just a spark to what is now a fair amount of unrest in the community.

[Shamitako]

Fam, I've been here for just about five years. I know how it works. Y'all not being able to hold a conversation ain't a good enough reason to include people in sexual conversation without them indicating whether they want to or not. Keepin' this place accessible is precisely how became the Reborn you know today. This is just furthering that.

But, conversation--especially on this type of topic--is a spontaneous thing, it's not something you can force

We're not all out banning sexual jokes, but please do keep them tame, anything overt will end up in a warning from an auth, and should not be dominating main as stated

Most importantly, please think before you make a joke about someone in chat, it's been a problem where people's requests of not being a target of these have not been respected

I can understand the issue of people being made uncomfortable when an innuendo is directed their way, and that's something that should be dealt with

Good shit, y'all. Including folks in your sexual conversation when they haven't given indication that they're willing to participate is sus. Backchannels historically haven't had rules, so y'all ain't hurtin' for places to talk.

But we've had this same discussion over and over and over and over and over with League of Legends. And it's been proven on multiple occasions that attempting to move a spontaneous discussion to a backchannel will kill it 90% of the time

Saying "people don't want to be a part of this, take it to a backchannel" never works, ever

The biggest problem I find with this is the whole "11 and 12 year olds accessing our forum" deal, because you'd need to take a moment to actually think. DO these kids even know what we're implying? Odds are they're probably not since most around that age take what they see at face value. Plus most of those who make the jokes are old/mature/intelligent to wrap our head around it because we know what a metaphor is.

They do, I've worked with enough 8 to 13 year olds to know that unless their parents shelter them like turtles, they're going to get innuendos. That's why they find Cain just as funny as everyone else

[Arkhi]

Fam, I've been here for just about five years. I know how it works. Y'all not being able to hold a conversation ain't a good enough reason to include people in sexual conversation without them indicating whether they want to or not. Keepin' this place accessible is precisely how became the Reborn you know today. This is just furthering that.

I imagine Dobby is more so saying frequent activity on the server brought about the change. Given that the rules, warnings, punishments, enforcement, enforcers, statutes, and more have been changed, edited, re-edited, or whatever else have also changed frequently over five years, the circumstances will follow suit. A tree isn't more knowledgeable than a man simply because it's lived longer- not that this can be broken down so simply.

An important takeaway following this change is underrepresentation of users, particularly those who were accepting of the lax enforcement of R7 on the server. We've heard more cases of users having issues with loose enforcement of R7 than users who enjoy it the way it was. If there's a change Reborn ought to implement, make yourselves heard. I won't speak on the fellow Staff's accounts, but I will hear suggestions that someone feels should be implemented- we've even got a thread for it.

[Neo]

I get you've been here for a while which Is why I'll point out that you should know exactly how much this place has changed in that time. That being said, the server isn't immune to change and I know you're rarely on, unless you want to prove otherwise. That being said, I don't think you know how things are and you should maybe take a look around sometime. Get a better grasp of the server dynamic.

Yes, this place remaining accessible is important but I'm now wondering whether or not the steps being taken to accomplish this is having diminishing returns at the cost of putting other members out. The community is growing faster and faster, do the floodgates need to be opened this extra inch when it causes as much strife with one minority as it did with another? I think I feel safe in saying that if people didn't enjoy toeing the R7 line themselves then most were probably ambivalent about it. These steps didn't have to be taken, this community isn't a group of mindless monkeys, if one asks politely for someone to stop ina serious manner, then nine times out of ten, the jokes will stop. These rules didn't need to be and were just a spark to what is now a fair amount of unrest in the community.

Fam, I know how this shit works because I've seen all kinds of server with all kinds of different stages of activity. The same trends appear throughout. Unpuff that chest.

That second argument you're making here is entirely invalid. Wanna know why? Because very similar changes and restrictions made Reborn into the place that you ended up sticking around at. Trust me when I say nobody bitched more about changes than I did. I just fuckin' know better now. I remember when rule 7 didn't exist in its current form. I remember when the shit y'all do now wouldn't have even drawn a side eye. We're a website that ultimately is centered around a children's game series. It's not gonna kill any of the older users to not talk like middle school kids (with how y'all talk about anything sexual) in main.

[Shamitako]

An important takeaway following this change is underrepresentation of users, particularly those who were accepting of the lax enforcement of R7 on the server. We've heard more cases of users having issues with loose enforcement of R7 than users who enjoy it the way it was. If there's a change Reborn ought to implement, make yourselves heard. I won't speak on the fellow Staff's accounts, but I will hear suggestions that someone feels should be implemented- we've even got a thread for it.

Well, when things are lax, the people who don't like things lax will complain. Now that things aren't so lax, the people who like things lax may still be needing time to notice. I wouldn't even know about this if I hadn't randomly looked at people arguing about it in main earlier, since I never look at the Grand Hall anymore

Honestly, this doesn't even effect me--I gave up on main back when Hori left. But, like you said, make your voice heard. I disagree with this, so I'm speaking out against it. And I'll keep doing so until there's a rule made against it (At which point I will leave because ruling against my ability to have an opinion is stupid)

At the very least, you should have tried handling the cases you had more clearly before deciding a change like this needed to be made. As Dobby said, people will generally stop with their innuendos if asked clearly and directly

[Felicity]

Fam, I know how this shit works because I've seen all kinds of server with all kinds of different stages of activity. The same trends appear throughout. Unpuff that chest.

That second argument you're making here is entirely invalid. Wanna know why? Because very similar changes and restrictions made Reborn into the place that you ended up sticking around at. Trust me when I say nobody bitched more about changes than I did. I just fuckin' know better now. I remember when rule 7 didn't exist in its current form. I remember when the shit y'all do now wouldn't have even drawn a side eye. We're a website that ultimately is centered around a children's game series. It's not gonna kill any of the older users to not talk like middle school kids (with how y'all talk about anything sexual) in main.

I'm not particularly eager to take that at face value considering you can't speak about the reborn server as it is now. Every place is different, some similar sure, but still different. Saying it was the same elsewhere may not be true when you don't know what the server is like now.

Same goes for the rest of your argument. It may have been the case that changes worked in the past but that isn't necessarily gonna happen again

So maybe try listening to someone who is more up to date on the server than assuming five years means you've seen all the world.

[Neo]

I'm not particularly eager to take that at face value considering you can't speak about the reborn server as it is now. Every place is different, some similar sure, but still different. Saying it was the same elsewhere may not be true when you don't know what the server is like now.

Same goes for the rest of your argument. It may have been the case that changes worked in the past but that isn't necessarily gonna happen again

So maybe try listening to someone who is more up to date on the server than assuming five years means you've seen all the world.

I pop in every few days, fam. You're really not getting what I'm saying if that's all you're taking from what I'm saying.

Having this kind of conversation in the main lobby, where all manner of people can see and are thrown into whether they want to participate is wrong. It's really that simple. Then there's the fact that again, we're based around a children's game. Ame's game may be darker than usual, but that doesn't take away from what Pokemon's audience is. I think we can all agree that kids have no business in conversations of a sexual nature. Which means, as a community we've got to take measures to ensure that they don't see it. It's really that simple. You wouldn't say that type of shit in public, consider main as you being out in public.

[Shamitako]

I think we can all agree that kids have no business in conversations of a sexual nature. Which means, as a community we've got to take measures to ensure that they don't see it.

So, we're attempting to remove innuendo from the main chat so that kids who come here because of the game aren't put off by the sexual innuendo

I cannot be the only one who sees the irony in this