FINAL POLLING; Wifi Clause, Standard Tier or Side Tier?

[Diana]

Let me make one thing clear.

ANY COMMENT ON ANOTHER PERSON'S VOTE WILL BE DELETED, AND PUNISHMENT SHALL BE GIVEN OUT

or something like that,

The poll is made public for a few reasons. This will be the FINAL POLL, so please keep it civil, and don't call out another person or a group of people.

This poll will be closed on September 7th, 2014 at 12 PM.

[Sapphire]

I vote side, because as said before, side tiers sometimes struggle to keep going, and the wifi crowd have proven dedicated enough to keep their side tier alive.

[Rosesong]

I find no wifi a bit more fun, tbh, but if wifi were a separate tier that'd be cool.

[Moony]

same argument people had last time for clear skies, saying it would get enuf activity smh,,, how well did that work out, eh?

gonna drop some stuff real quick,,,

'What's the point of implementing Wifi Clause if it's not going to be mandatory? It's like Clear Skies tier, no one used it just because it wasn't the mandatory tier. That will also be the case with Wifi Clause. I find much more battles with no preview than with Wifi just because Wifi clause is not mandatory. It is also because of the fact that not a lot of people even know about the implementation of Wifi Clause. The ladder is meant for competitive play, and most of the competent battlers here support the implementation of Wifi Clause as being mandatory because it's better than having no preview (read other thread). Those are my thoughts, I think it should definitely be mandatory. '

'There's not enough people just in AO to keep the ladder up and active. Without enough people, the tier's ladder will die and this will all be for nothing,,, And besides, shouldn't Wifi Clause be mandatory in the ladder as the ladder is for competitive playing? I think it was majorly agreed that Wifi Clause is more competitive than not having it (last thread)'

'Hazards in Wifi are just as good as hazards in No Preview, sr is on every single team in Wifi and spikes are still good, just not as commonly used. Wifi is more competitive than No Preview, there's a reason it's used in most competitive Pokemon battles (Smogon World Cup for an example), because you actually know the shit on the other person's team. If there's a Ditto in non preview and you set a mon and lose to that Ditto, is that competitive? I say no and a lot of people would likely agree. How are you supposed to know you shouldn't set up if you don't know there's a Ditto? You can't know if there's a Ditto in the back, and if there is, you can get swept by that Ditto you didn't even know was in the back. That's not competitive at all,,,'

'New people have actually left Reborn just because Wifi Clause wasn't the default on the ladder.'

sorry for tl;dr post, those are my thoughts on the wifi clause, moony be out here,,, coming thru,,, ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ

Edited September 1, 2014 by Moony

[Kamina]

i vote WIFI!!!!!!!! lgi !!!

[Dominator]

Wifir cause xxxPootisman123499pokemonmaster223xxx

[Reignited'Light]

Summarizing why I want Wifi Clause

1. Wifi clause has been a thing since Black/White which was like a 2009/2010 game? So it's been here for a while and it should be used.

2. I feel like with Wifi clause, it makes more of a prediction game then luck game.

That's it.

[Diana]

Wifi has been in the games as long as it's had Wifi battles; all the way back to Diamond and Pearl, IIRC.

[Kiozo]

Gonna post how I feel. Note; it was not finished yet, as I was typing it and got forcibly removed by life in the process and it was intended for last thread.

I'm in an extremely negative mood and don't feel like finishing it.

If you don't like it, I respect your opinion. But I don't respect any calling this out/etc. Main reason I'm posting it is for the sake of how people felt upon reading it in a side chat that we were having, and that people asked me to post it.

http://pastebin.com/Yt1NGs5d <- it's linked there. I can't copy and paste to forums, idk why.

So in short; yeah I didn't finish it before which is why there is but a single 't' at the end and you can get the drift.

[The Radiant Aeon]

Summarizing why I want Wifi Clause

1. Wifi clause has been a thing since Black/White which was like a 2009/2010 game? So it's been here for a while and it should be used.

2. I feel like with Wifi clause, it makes more of a prediction game then luck game.

That's it.

Basically this.

[Lil' Baby Rupe]

@Kiozo, you mention being at your "peak" in gen4, and continue to compare gen 6 to gen 4. I don't understand why you're doing this, because the entire game has changed since then,,,

Wifi was implemented into the game by GameFreak because the total amount of pokemon that can be used by players continues to increase vastly, meaning you can't prepare for threats as well. For example, I can prepare for talonflame by using a Rotom-W, however because there are so many new pokemon being created and so many different sets used that I wouldn't be able to rely on Rotom-W to counter Talonflame if no-preview was still a part of the actual game - if I need to use rotom for something else, for example Belly Drum Azumarill will be able to weaken rotom Rotom, then bam Talonflame revealed and you're screwed...

tl;dr gen 4 =/= gen 6, stop comparing, the game has changed,,,

Edited September 1, 2014 by Rupe

[Shanco]

@Kiozo, you mention being at your "peak" in gen4, and continue to compare gen 6 to gen 4. I don't understand why you're doing this, because the entire game has changed since then,,,

Wifi was implemented into the game by GameFreak because the total amount of pokemon that can be used by players continues to increase vastly, meaning you can't prepare for threats as well. For example, I can prepare for talonflame by using a Rotom-W, however because there are so many new pokemon being created and so many different sets used that I wouldn't be able to rely on Rotom-W to counter Talonflame if no-preview was still a part of the actual game - if I need to use rotom for something else, for example Belly Drum Azumarill will be able to weaken rotom Rotom, then bam Talonflame revealed and you're screwed...

tl;dr gen 4 =/= gen 6, stop comparing, the game has changed,,,

It seems you read the first few lines then stopped reading to rip a strip off him in complete disregard to everything else said. That's completely unfair.

In any case, I've made my opinion heard on the other thread, and I've also said it on skype. I will say however that I personally believe there's more harm than good done in making it mandatory. I won't say why for civility reasons.

[Kiozo]

The only comparison I made was that there was no Wifi Clause back then.

It's clear you didn't read the entirety of my post based off of that. So seriously. Don't try to call me out.

Anywho; If you're not prepared for threats in multiple ways, I don't think you'll win in either situation.

Edit: If you edit immediately, you don't see an "edited" line.

[Sapphire]

Wifi has been in the games as long as it's had Wifi battles; all the way back to Diamond and Pearl, IIRC.

Actually, it wasn't a thing then.

[Ikaru]

Irrelevant posts deleted.

[Sonikku]

I thought we already did something like this and it ended? Why did it resume? Anyway I'll vote for no wifi cause it makes sense to not predict the others entire team and what if people would just forfeit everytime they see something they don't like? Not fun indeed.

[Diana]

It ended in a tie between straight "yes" and "optional." This is the last poll to decide which is default.

[Void]

I'm not sure why people are saying rupe didn't read the entire thing, his posts covers basically everything kiozo said.

The lack of team preview was perfectly fine in gen 4, when there weren't as many big threats and ridiculously hard hitters. However, in gen 5 and especially gen 6, there are simply way too many overpowered and/or arguably broken pokemon that it's simply impossible to have balanced games without team preview. How exactly does one be 'prepared for threats in multiple ways' when there are so many threats and just 6 teamslots? I've peaked #1 on smogon/PO ladders in every gen from 4 to 6 and I have no clue how one does this in the current meta, would be nice if you could shed some light on this.

It's pretty much as rupe says, checks for threats in this current meta are so shaky that dealing with a threat will leave that check severely weakened. Lets say I run two checks for CB talonflame on my team, heatran and rotom-w. Either one of these two will get pretty worn down by 2 or more brave birds. Now, which one are you going to pick here to deal with it? It will all come down to luck in the end. If I pick Rotom-W and it gets too worn down, if my opponent has belly drum azumarill left that will sweep me. If he/she has something like sub SD mawile instead, then I lucked out if I chose Rotom-W to deal with talonflame, but tough luck if I picked heatran. At least with team preview, you can be smarter about what you let get worn down and what you sacrifice.

The thing is, the XY metagame of now is very much based on team matchups. Taking out team preview just makes this far worse. With team preview, a good player at least has the chance to play around the disadvantage. Without it, a bad matchup is almost an auto-loss, even if you are a far better player than your opponent. Non-wifi clause is fine for fun battles and stuff, but if you're talking about real competitive play (which I assume the ladder is supposed to be), wifi clause is a must for gens 5 and above.

[Chase]

Controversy aside, I'll explain my reasoning for not being in the wifi-clause crowd.

1. The part of the prediction game that is affected by the team preview doesn't exactly equate to skill. If you can look at someone's team and say "Oh, they have Klefki, so I'm going to lead with this" it immediately sets the tone for the battle and causes some leveraging - without any of the battle actually taking place.

2. You can't justifiably say that the wifi-clause makes the battlers feel more in control of the match. Even with it, you will still get randomly generated Critical hits, status effects, missed attacks, etc. Even if you want to make it a game where you get an immediate edge from predicting a lead pokemon, the prevailing part of the battle is always going to be Luck, generated by random numbers and other variables.

3. In established contests, it evens out the playing field for the less experienced battler. The meta-game, up until X and Y, was relatively unpopular on the handhelds themselves because it wasn't friendly for novice combatants, and when you are trying to increase your ranking and you are forced to give experienced opponents the ability to predict your lead, it usually results in enough of an edge for the better player to hold on throughout the match.

4. In rebuttal to the "It's been there since Black and White" argument, the competitive pokemon meta-game has existed since the first generation, requiring LINK CABLES of all things to even exist at all. Team preview wasn't a thing during those days.

5. While, no matter which way you slice the issue, the battle will always be influenced by some significant degree of luck, and I feel that, from the standpoint of the experienced battler, you should make your predictions later in the match to secure victory, and the team preview not being there doesn't rob one such battler such opportunity.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Hilda

[Void]

tl;dr - 'pokemon is already so luck based let's make it even more so'

Why should we even out the playing field for less experienced players? Of course better and more experienced players should have the edge in a competitive game, you can hardly call it competitive otherwise. As I said before, it's fine for fun battles, not for competitive ones.

Basically didn't address any of the points I made at all lol

[Chase]

Wouldn't the lack of the team preview make it MORE COMPETITIVE when battling someone that is supposed to be a pushover then?

It's not competitive to steamroll someone before you even choose a move.

I don't think you addressed any of mine, other than you don't give a rip about people that aren't as solid a combatant as you are.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Hilda

[Void]

It's more competitive when skill pays off. If it's too luck based there's less reason for someone to strive to get better, hence making it less competitive.

[Chase]

I clearly said in my post that there is still opportunity to make predictions without team preview. Having it be an aside clause would not deprive skilled players the ability to exhibit skillful technique. You don't HAVE to win a match on Turn 1.

[Void]

I also addressed all your points. 'pokemon is already so luck based let's make it even more so' doesn't make any sense of all and that's your points #2 and #5. point 4 is really irrelevant, and what I posted takes care of the rest.

EDIT: I've already gone into detail on why it makes the game too unreliant on skill, try and actually counter the points I made lol

Edited September 1, 2014 by Void

[Chase]

It's not more luck based if you have the so-called "skill" to dig yourself out of a bad matchup on the first turn. If you don't, then I can see why you would vote to make the wifi clause default.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Hilda