FINAL POLLING; Wifi Clause, Standard Tier or Side Tier?

[Dark Desire]

I clearly said in my post that there is still opportunity to make predictions without team preview. Having it be an aside clause would not deprive skilled players the ability to exhibit skillful technique. You don't HAVE to win a match on Turn 1.

You're basically guessing before you can really predict in wifi though, and no preview gives people the excuse to run gimmicky things like leading with scarf zoroark or other things to bait and counter certain leads

[Void]

Again, I've already gone into huge detail on why it is less skill based, while you are just asserting "oh it's not as luck based if you have the skill".

[Chase]

Here's the ideal skilled player, guys.

1. A skilled player doesn't have to win turn 1.

2. A skilled player will be able to shut down gimmick teams.

3. A skilled player wins matches on predictions made later on in the match.

4. A skilled player preserves his or her pokemon, meaning the margin of victory is wider and the doubt of the victor's skill is unquestioned.

[Chase]

The reason I'm putting it on the skill of the player is because the wifi clause doesn't change the fact that the match is still going to be luck based! The degree may not be the same, but you aren't really replacing those recovered degrees with actual "skill". Skill is exemplified best IN the battle, not before the first turn!

Edited September 1, 2014 by Hilda

[Void]

Ahhh the authority on what a skilled player is coming through here. You've undoubtedly witnessed many skilled players in action while playing here on reborn.

I'm really not sure what you mean by 'winning turn 1' here, you can get a favourable lead matchup through prediction and that gives you an edge but hardly the game.

'Preserving your pokemon' - again, I'VE ALREADY COVERED THIS WITH THE EXAMPLE I GAVE WITH THE HEATRAN AND ROTOM.

The aim of any competitive pokemon community is to eliminate as much luck from the game as possible. It's still going to be a thing, but less so is always better. If you aren't replacing those degrees of luck with skill, then tell me, what are we replacing it with?

Edited September 1, 2014 by Void

[slant]

Battles aren't won or lost on turn 1. Sure you can mispredict and have an unfavorable matchup but it is not the end of the world. Yes, selecting your first pokemon does turn into a guessing game, but it is a far lesser evil than not knowing your opponent's team, which definitely will make or break the match.

[Chase]

@ Slant - I'm not going to bother arguing against the control a player has when knowing the opponents team later on in the match. That's one of the positives of team preview. Again, however, having a brain that can memorize your opponent's pokemon (or a cell phone camera that can do it for you) doesn't exactly equate to skill either. All that does is clear the fog a sizable bit more than not knowing your opponents team at all. In the end, you still have to deal with the Pokemon on the other side of the field, and all six of them to win. I'm certain there are those with enough ability to dig themselves out of late game holes just as much as there are those who can overcome early obstacles.

@ Void - What I mean by winning turn one is this: Your lead pokemon has a matchup advantage, and will be able to set up it's hazards or it's stats while taking little to no damage at all, while possibly drawing a switch. I understood and was merely reiterating what you said about your scenario with Rotom and Heatran. I dunno why you think my initial post was in response to yours. I would have used a quote from you or put your name in it or something.

Here's the crux of the issue. The options you can vote for are as follows: A, You make the WiFi Clause default, or B, you give people the OPTION.

What's the problem with having a choice? You get the ability to WiFi Clause either way.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Hilda

[slant]

because people only ladder on the default tier. if you don't make wifi clause default nobody will ladder on it.

[Void]

Of course you will have a slight advantage at the start there, which is your reward for winning the initial mind games.

I didn't think that your initial post was a response to mine. However, it's rather redundant to make a post that includes points that a previous post has already countered, which is what that post did.

The options clearly say: A. Default, B. Side tier. It's already optional as it is, this is simply to decide the default tier for the ladder (there has to be one, right?)

Edited September 1, 2014 by Void

[Chase]

Then THATS where the problem lies. There should be separate ladders. Why deny someone the choice to -try- and ladder with a bit more variables (such as entire teams) in the unknown?

I understand that this is a vote on a fix that is probably much easier to do than to address the actual problem, but I can't bring myself to vote in a manner to deprive anyone of an opportunity to battle as they see fit.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Hilda

[Void]

There will be separate ladders... we're talking about the 'default' tier, as in the tier your team will automatically load into when you log in.

[Lobos]

Laddering- "a series of usually ascending steps or stages."[/size]
Competitive- "inclined, desiring, or suited to compete"[/size]
Luck- "the events or circumstances that operate for or against an individual" "[/size] favoring chance"[/size]

The definitions above give clear and concise idea about what laddering competitive is without luck factoring in. Laddering, as clearly shown, is the climbing through the "steps," which is referedto as ranking. The competitive scene means a desire to compete for laddering. Never have I heard of wanting to competitively participate in any competition and hope to win by luck. It is what separates those who truly want to advance and not.

By not implementing Wi-Fi you want to "luck" out in a battle. Wi-Fi is meant ot give equal access for both opponents to make changes and adapt to the opponents team. By not having Wi-Fi these "luck" based battles will continue to infect the ladders with people who can battle and people who can't. It's literally no different than "Ghosting", "Sniping"... why? Because it's based of an edge that is not given to any party. It's the exact reason why there's a problem with Swagger, Baton Pass. You can't possibly put people who have no motivation behind the competition side of laddering with those who want it. This is comparable with saltwater; the water is ladder and salt is people who wish to win based off of "luck." In the end I spit saltwater out because it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth similarly with what my experience with people who claim that luck is fun when I devote time to prove myself among the populace of how good I am.

Here a perfect example of what happens when you put me without Wi-Fi battle.

http://pastebin.com/ctiT0HYJ

Notice how in the very beginning I lost my Infernape because I had no idea of what was happening? Exactly because I was unprepared.

So now the moral of the story. The battle proves my point as to why it should be implemented because it's based off of luck and not skill.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Lobos

[Chase]

If there WILL be entirely separate ladders, why are we having vote(s) over the default ladder?

All it takes is a topic on PO saying "Hey, guy, make sure you decide on which ladder conditions suit your fancy and get on the RIGHT LADDER. It doesn't MATTER what the default is!

Talk about unnecessary conflict earlier....

[Void]

Many people will just get on and ladder on whatever they're loaded on, so it's a fairly big thing.

As said before, many of the non-default tiers have died out.

[Shamitako]

And we're back to taking potshots, wonderful

Hilda, there will be separate ladders, but it's expected that the one that isn't the default will die off relatively quickly because randoms with Red teams won't play on it

Thus, whichever one ends up being default, at least in most people's minds, will essentially be the only one around anywhales

[Sparky]

This may seem out of place, but the non-default tiers only died out, because nobody is willing to experiment with them, except a small minority. Myself included have garnered a liking towards Little Cup, but as stated by Void, it died out, since people only ladder with the default tier.

[Chase]

Okay, so laziness is the reason we're having a vote to change the default ladder?

I mean we're better off tearing down old ladders, and raising public awareness if your worried about preserving your precious WiFi clause ladder. Just because people wont go through the effort to change the ladder to the WiFi one doesn't mean it really needs to be voted on.

The biggest issue that we're facing is that, according to the last vote, a sizable amount of people DON'T want the WiFi clause to be on the default ladder, which has caused this royal mess of multiple reforendums and squabbling, when the effort probably should have been spent on raising awareness on the other ladders.

[Void]

Well, the default tier as of now is wifi, so I suppose the non-wifi group should be raising public awareness to preserve their precious non-wifi ladder.

In any case, the fact of the matter is, in the past non-default tiers have died out, so default tier is an important thing. If you think it doesn't matter or that you can raise enough awareness to circumvent this problem, that's fine, but we're going to need a default anyway so there's no reason not to have a vote.

[Commander]

Okay, so laziness is the reason we're having a vote to change the default ladder?

I mean we're better off tearing down old ladders, and raising public awareness if your worried about preserving your precious WiFi clause ladder. Just because people wont go through the effort to change the ladder to the WiFi one doesn't mean it really needs to be voted on.

I can honestly say I'm indifferent to the wi-fi clause. Unless you're running a bad team, it won't affect your overall performance that much. I prefer not having the Wi-fi clause on because it makes the average trainer way too predictable. This is coming from a guy who hasn't done a whole lot of competitive battling.

Edited September 1, 2014 by commander218

[Chase]

I wouldn't exactly be counting a 15-10 vote as conclusive, even though this is the "final" vote to begin with.

It -shouldn't- matter if you take the steps to direct different types of battlers to ladders they need to be in. For what it's worth, I don't understand why the Wi-Fi clause wouldn't already be in effect, but I don't think asking the community here for a vote is exactly the smartest thing to do in order to resolve it.

[Void]

I wouldn't exactly be counting a 15-10 vote as conclusive, even though this is the "final" vote to begin with.

It -shouldn't- matter if you take the steps to direct different types of battlers to ladders they need to be in. For what it's worth, I don't understand why the Wi-Fi clause wouldn't already be in effect, but I don't think asking the community here for a vote is exactly the smartest thing to do in order to resolve it.

You misunderstand me. What I mean is as of now, if you log in on the server and click find battle in Ubers/OU/UU/RU/NU, if you find a battle it will be wifi. Meaning it is currently the default.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Void

[Wes]

I wouldn't exactly be counting a 15-10 vote as conclusive, even though this is the "final" vote to begin with.

Majority Rule is a thing and that's the entire point of a voting process. If that's not conclusive, I don't know what you would consider to be so.

It -shouldn't- matter if you take the steps to direct different types of battlers to ladders they need to be in. For what it's worth, I don't understand why the Wi-Fi clause wouldn't already be in effect, but I don't think asking the community here for a vote is exactly the smartest thing to do in order to resolve it.

It's something that affects the community, so why not ask the community how they feel? I mean sure most people don't actually know what they're talking about and in the previous thread didn't even understand the differences between the voting choices in some cases, but it's still something that needs to be discussed as a community so that the community it affects is made aware of the changes that could possibly/probably happen.

Comments in bold.

[Magus]

I voted default tier, I stand by what I said last time, it has been in since gen 5 as default when battling, and we should have it as default while laddering in gen 6.

[Swimming95]

I vote side tier for the same reasons as the other thread. But as I also said in the other thread, this is just for laddering so idc

[Dark Desire]

The biggest issue that we're facing is that, according to the last vote, a sizable amount of people DON'T want the WiFi clause to be on the default ladder, which has caused this royal mess of multiple reforendums and squabbling, when the effort probably should have been spent on raising awareness on the other ladders.

only like 4 people from the last poll didn't want wifi, the majority either wanted it on ladder or on ladder and one or the other as a side tier