Why we need a Clear Skies tier!

[Vex]

So basically if you're new to Reborn then you should know the tiers are a little different from the average server. For one, things like Swift Swim + Kingdra and Excadrill are still OU here, Shadow Tag is also. Anyway, Clear Skies is a tier where weather is banned completely. Weather is huge part of the current meta game and I know a LOT of people use it without much thought. The question is, why do people use weather? What makes your team better than the one without weather? There are actually many answers to this, I'll try and cover most of them.

So Mori, why do people use weather? The main response to this is, weather wins, the majority of battles between a weather team and a non-weather team, weather will come out on top. Why? Because having weather on your side gives the clear advantage from the off. The main fact that I'm sure most people who dislike weather and even smart people who use weather from time to time agree on, is that weather being summoned PERMANENTLY is absolutely ridiculous for the amount of extra advantages you gain from using it!

How? Think about Sand, it's taking 1/16 of your Pokemons health every turn unless they are Rock, Ground, Steel or have the ability Magic Guard, which most Sand users will have because they work so well with the team. Perfect for stalling isn't it? Your Pokemon will be taking damage every turn (same with hail) and their, let's say Gliscor will be sitting behind a sub. Slaps a toxic in your face and you miss the ice beam which otherwise would take out the sub and would, next turn, kill him. Sand Veil is one of the abilities which abuses weather, in my personal opinion, the most annoying out of all of them (same as the ability Snow Cloak in hail). Another thing to mention is the special defense boost Rock-types get in Sandstorm and this boost only applies to Pokemon that has Rock-type.Their Special Defense is increased by 50% while Sandstorm is active. As if they didn't have enough of an advantage already, right? While we are on the topic of Sand, Sand Rush the ability that doubles a Pokemons speed in a Sandstorm is a pretty scary thing to come across. While the most threatening Pokemon that learns Sand Rush is Excadrill which, as I mentioned, isn't banned here. There are a lot of things that counter Excadrill (mostly in the form of fighting priority) but that doesn't mean his massive attack coupled with the HUGE speed boost from Sand Rush won't sweep your team if your physical wall is dead and/or you have no remaining priority. Trust me, not many things can live a +2 STAB earthquake unless it's resisted, even when it is.. It's going to hurt you a lot.

Alright so Sand can be a little bit difficult to deal with, so what? What about Rain? Being the next form of weather that can be permanently summoned in this Gen in OU, it has different types of abilities but some with the same nature as in Sand. Swift Swim being the most discussed and I'm sure most hated ability out of them all, acts exactly the same as Sand Rush except for in rain, of course. Now unlike Sand Rush, where Excadrill was the only decent Pokemon given the ability (arguable, but for the most part true.) Swift Swim has,listing only final evolutions, Golduck, Poliwrath, Seaking, Omastar, Kabutops, Qwilfish, Mantine, Kingdra, Ludicolo, Armaldo, Huntail, Gorebyss, Relicanth, Floatzel, Luminion, Seismitoad, Carracosta and Beartic. With most of these Pokemon being able to abuse STAB water type moves in the rain. Which the rain ALSO boosts water-type moves by 50%! Not to mention decreasing the power of fire-type moves by 50% also. A clear advantage again, from the start of the match. Now out of all the abusers of rain, Kingdra is probably the most common and best at it's job. As I mentioned before, it's not banned here. With the ability of having a physical or special set and STAB water moves boosted by 50% because of rain. You can really see why it was banned, looking back at Excadrill, there are many clear counters. As for Kingdra? Not so much.. Being water/dragon-type it gives it only one weakness, being dragon. Taking in it's natural bulk with very respectable defenses it sure as hell can take a hit or two. But as it will naturally out speed everything and with the power it has, be it specs or Dragon Dancing, you won't get the chance. Rain Dish and Dry Skin are both abilities which are useful only in rain(aside from Dry Skin absorbing water moves), mainly for stalling as coupled with leftovers or recovery items you regain so much health. I hope I'm making my point stand out here?

What about Hail and Sun? Being the last two types of weather left, which can also be permanently summoned into battle from the start. I wouldn't say they are as threatening as Sand or Rain but they still give the advantage nonetheless. Sun probably being the more dominant of the two, has the ability Chlorophyll, exactly the same use as Sand Rush and Swift Swim except, naturally for sun. As the abusers of this ability are all grass types it doesn't have as much coverage or survivability. But the main threat would have to be Venusaur, having access to Growth boosting it's special attack and attack whilst having the speed boost is a fantastic sweeper and a right pain. Normally countered soundly by Heatran, resisting both it's stabs and normally Hidden Power - Fire. Except when it carries Earthquake, which I've found if running a physically defensive Heatran CAN sometimes live! But will normally KO and continue to sweep your team. Most of the other threats in the sun are very like Venusaur except not as great for sweeping. Like Sawsbuck who normally uses Life Orb and Double Edge it can die rather quick to recoil. Still the huge speed boost is very annoying and sometimes you can't do anything but watch your team get swept.. As for hail, I'd say it's a lot more about stalling. Giving the same nature as Sandstorm losing HP every turn unless you have the immunity Walrein can just substitute protect toxic stall you to a very frustrating death. Trust me, I've been there.. Snow Cloak, like Sand Veil boosts the evasion of said Pokemon in hail. So like Gliscor Froslass can set up and sub more than likely, because hax never goes well for most with evasion. You will miss the attack and they now have a free sub. Hurray.

Most of the current arguments for weather are "Weather actually takes skill and strategy to pull off!". Alright, tell me that without copy and pasting the same no.1 team from the Smogon ladder and win 9/10 of your matches with the single battle loss being to another weather team. I personally am sick of the Reborn ladder full of weather teams which are give a take a Pokemon, all the same. I think it's time for a Clear Skies tier so us non-weather abusers can battle without it being an instant loss. I've spoken to many different people on the server about their thoughts and opinions on weather, most of whom said they would prefer it to be banned to ubers where it belongs. It may sound rash, but without weather people would be able to be creative on the ladder without the only problem they come across being, "Oh no, I have to keep my Politoed alive so his Tyranitar can't come in and set up Sand so I lose!". Many new people coming into the Reborn server aren't happy with the tiers, it's happend quite a few times where someone will come into main chat and rant about how Excadrill isn't uber here. I think Reborn tiers being different are great and not going along with the others. But for those people who don't agree with Kingdra or Excadrill being OU, they won't need to worry about it if we had a Clear Skies tier, personally I'd spend most of time battling in there because of all the weather on the ladder, as mentioned. I know quite of number of people agree and would love the idea of a Clear Skies tier. If you're not prepared to get rid of weather completely, which would make many people happy, I know from speaking with them, please consider making it a tier for those of us who would enjoy it. I understand people will not agree with some of my points. And I'm all for reasoned arguments, so be my guest. Post below on your ideas and opinions and I'll get back to you. Thank you for your time and I hope I made my points clear. - Jim

[Yuki]

I like it cuz it gives the randoms who aren't fond of our OU allowing weather giants a tier to play in. Everybody wins, so

[Voctrode]

I don't even need to read all this to agree to it.

Clear skies has always needed to exist, as a tier and as an ability =(

[Yuki]

I don't even need to read all this to agree to it.

Clear skies has always needed to exist, as a tier and as an ability =(

Get that rayquaza airlock on your ou team >> <<

[Vex]

In all seriousness, Air Lock would be one the best abilities in OU right now because of the current meta.

[Bullet]

I think it's a very fine idea, one that has been addressed in the past, and I am mildly surprised it wasn't implemented previously. One small question: would manually starting weather(using the actual moves, Rain Dance, Sunny Day, etc.) be banned as well? I apologize if you did address this within the OP, I got lazy and just skimmed it.

[Vex]

Yes, ALL forms of weather is banned. I guess that's what makes it so appealing!

[Jelly]

Cloud Nine Golduck FTW. But seriously... WE NEED THIS!!!

[Eternal Edge]

Cloud Nine only works while it's in play, if I recall.

[Noivy]

So Mori, why do people use weather? The main response to this is, weather wins (?), the majority of battles between a weather team and a non-weather team, weather will come out on top. Why? Because having weather on your side gives the clear advantage from the off. The main fact that I'm sure most people who dislike weather and even smart people who use weather from time to time agree on, is that weather being summoned PERMANENTLY is absolutely ridiculous for the amount of extra advantages you gain from using it!

Im sorry, but as soon as you pulled this card, I REALLY lost a lot of seriousness in this thread. You're over estimating waaayyyy tooooo much here. Weather is suprisingly easy to counter. People just see the thing and instantly start over thinking when it's so suprisingly simple. If you saw the structure of these rarely used teams, you'd agree that it's easy.

But I DO like the idea of a nonweather tier. So I'll support this idea. But I seriously, SERIOUSLY don't like it when people say that "weather users always win". BECAUSE THEY DONT!

What about Hail and Sun? Being the last two types of weather left, which can also be permanently summoned into battle from the start. I wouldn't say they are as threatening as Sand or Rain

[FraRPetO]

too long, didn't read

but of course i agree

[Vex]

I respect your opinion, but sadly it is the truth. Weather does win, majority of the time weather will beat the non-weather. Simply because weather has extra boosts and active abilities over the non-weather user who has nothing but normal Pokemon.

[Swimming95]

I agree that we need a clear skies tier but for none of the reasons that you are suggesting. We should have it purely and only because it is yet another tier that can add to the overall experience.

I can tell you this though, your argument that weather beats our nonweather is complete and utter BS. The fact that you spent this much time talking about how weather is OP only shows that you lack the knowledge to be able to properly make a team and makes you no better than those who "abuse" it in your mind. All teams are able to be countered. Even my teams that do not use weather can still counter those that do, its all about knowing your team well enough.

The only thing I can tell you that you did correctly is say that a lot of people don't bother to actually make their team and just slap together the same 6 pokemon with the same 24 moves and that is annoying. Not that they are hard to beat.

[Vex]

I can tell you this though, your argument that weather beats our nonweather is complete and utter BS. The fact that you spent this much time talking about how weather is OP only shows that you lack the knowledge to be able to properly make a team and makes you no better than those who "abuse" it in your mind.

Maybe I did spend too much time on that, but it's a point that needs to be made Swim. It's not "utter BS" though. There is some valid opinions there and facts. I know perfectly well how to build a team, but what if I don't want to use the Pokemon that counter weather all the time, such as Gastrodon or Heatran and I just want to use the Pokemon I enjoy battling with? The main reason I dislike battling against weather the whole time. Having to switch out a Pokemon i enjoy using just because they can't take a specs rain boosted Hydro Pump.

[Swimming95]

Well, you could always invent new ways to use your faves? And in normal battles you would have to switch out if something else would overpower it so I don't understand that part of the argument.

Also, for example, my trick room team has nothing that directly counters weather yet can still beat weather based teams.

Try inventing your own sets that can both do what you want them to and abide to your interests and you will go far.

[Vex]

I should mention, when I said "switch out" I meant as in, switching a Pokemon out of my team for another. Like removing Honchkrow for Chansey.

[Amethyst]

I'm all for the tier regardless, but I have no idea how to actually implement it...

[Summer]

The truth is, seeing Reborn's unique tiers, more people flock to Reborn to abuse weather for laddering purposes.

Okay, no ill feelings towards weather, but I haven't seen anyone at the top of the ladder without weather. I feel that Clear Skies is the true tier to prove your capability in competitive Pokemon battling. I mean, if everyone who are considered the best use weather, then what is the point of originality in Teambuilding?

Just saying.

[Zen]

Well... Owen did suffer Bennett's yanmega despite running a Sun team...

Really, weather in the game is seasonal, just like actual weather - it comes and goes with varying team trends.

Eventually, the weather-users would probably get bored of it, too.

[Noivy]

DONT REMIND ME! >________>

[Zen]

DONT REMIND ME! >________>

Well, it IS proof that non-weather can still beat weather

Then there were others, like Savage getting walled by Shade's shedinja for goodness-knows how many times... Elias being that horrible, horrible troll when he felt like it... I'm sure you remember those

[Cloud]

...I kind of agree that Weather is being overestimated here a bit. While the tier would be pretty nice to have... just prepare for Weather better. I would provide a stronger, longer argument here, but that's all that I should need, honestly. If you don't want to play against Weather, set up a friendly match with your friends and just don't ladder. The ladder is filled with people that just want to get to the top so they use what seems to work best, and that's usually Weather. Therefore, if you just play with a friend that you know won't/is not us(e, ing) Weather, you'll get along much smoother.

[The Fush]

You mean... I can finally stop seeing Politoeds?

*Sparkly Eyes*

[Valkyria]

Having a clear skies tier is fine.

What isn't fine is whining about not being able to use the pokemon you enjoy using. When I read post #14 on the previous page, I thought to myself, how old is this guy - 10? Using your attachment to a favorite pokemon to argue why weather is unfair. Seriously? If you like Eevee, fine. If you want to use Eevee, nobody's stopping you. Complaining that Eevee is inferior to Gastrodon in the sand? L.M.F.A.O.

If you want to use your favorite obscure pokemon without getting stomped, there's the NU tier. Ladder there sometime. I wouldn't mind the free ratings.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Valkyria

[Phazer]

Weather forever. Rhymed.