Are gym leaders insane?

[Derax]

Regarding the point about Charlotte being a gym leader whilst in the orphanage, wasn't Cal supposed to be the fire type gym leader before it was entrusted to Charlotte? Also, if Laura was originally *spoilers* a member of the Elite 4, how could she have kept her position whilst under Sigmund's 'ahem' care? Just some food for thought.

[Tomas Elliot]

Sigmund was actually supposed to let them battle, but he didn't. Noel's gym arena was in the orphanage. If you talk to the machine outside it in E15, Ame says she didn't know Sigmund wasn't allowing battles.

I didn't know this, as I haven't played Ep 15. This actually addresses one of the most problematic aspects of the issue, as we now know it was a setup by Sigmund, so yeah, thank you for pointing it out. While some of my points still stand (and what Derax said only adds to them), it is good to see that Ame IS addressing the issue. I can only hope for more light to be cast in the future.

And Az your Giovanni comparison is still irrelevant, as the whole "replacement gym leader" thing exists exclusively in Reborn, not in canon games. So yeah, I was criticizing how Reborn would introduce a system and then blatantly disrespect it, but what ICSW said does address the issue, so all is fine.

I still find it difficult to swallow that orphaned children and ghosts would land the job in the first place, but yay for progress. I sure hope that details on how, when and why they were chosen will be revealed in future episodes.

[Masquerain]

On the matter of Reborn gym leaders.... I have always seen it merely like this:

In the very beginning of the game, we see a scene of Ame and a special forces team presumably torching a meteor alive. I believe the gym leaders they have are allowed to be what they are because the entire region, as already mentioned, is a dystopia, everything has long stopped functioning as it normally should and they are fine having strong people around, even if they may be a tad dysfunctional . There is also the matter of Ame not being aware that Sigmund does whatever he does, and given that, nobody had the authority to stop him from taking custody of kids under the apparent laws existing there. Shade might be a weird ghost being, but he isn't bad. He was chosen for a reason beyond how creepy he looks. In-game Ame was already proven to not be all-knowing so it's also normal that she does not know of the leaders being secret meteors or of their personal issues. All that stuff in mind, I have no issues with the Reborn setting and leaders.. My bigger issue is trying to imagine another challenger who isn't you going to collect badges and finding that half the leaders are either dead, on the run, or nowhere to be found. How would that even work- But ofc, the game never considers other challengers who aren't the mc or their friends/rivals

[Ice Cream Sand Witch]

My bigger issue is trying to imagine another challenger who isn't you going to collect badges and finding that half the leaders are either dead, on the run, or nowhere to be found. How would that even work- But ofc, the game never considers other challengers who aren't the mc or their friends/rivals

In E15, there's actually an NPC in the Grand Hall that says she's been trying to contact a leader (Noel) for weeks but his caretaker isn't letting him battle.

[Masquerain]

In E15, there's actually an NPC in the Grand Hall that says she's been trying to contact a leader (Noel) for weeks but his caretaker isn't letting him battle.

I know that, I read all of them. It did help the holes but it's still somewhat of an issue. Charlotte and noel have been unable to battle for a while it seems, Luna was nowhere near her gym, Shelly is also on the run .. Imagine a random challenger trying to collect badges after you.. woops? Where's everyone and why is there no reserve?

[Damage]

Sorry if my quote isn't perfect but...

Upon unmasking Corey

Corey- You just had to do this in front of the girl...

Heather-Dad?.. I knew you were a a jerk but I didn't think you were evil Flies away*

Chief- Corey but the gym trainers are among reborn's most trusted "Citizens"

If the police are calling them citizens then how are they responsible for things the police can't control. Also back to the argument that because they're good with pokemon that means they handle pokemon related issues is like saying the NRA should be put on issues of domestic violence too because they have sharpshooters and are well versed in gun knowledge. Someone can't be responsible for certain things unless the responsibility is specifically placed on them. I agree leaders should be involved but if they were hired for competition then it isn't fair to say they're responsible.

[Tomas Elliot]

I know that, I read all of them. It did help the holes but it's still somewhat of an issue. Charlotte and noel have been unable to battle for a while it seems, Luna was nowhere near her gym, Shelly is also on the run .. Imagine a random challenger trying to collect badges after you.. woops? Where's everyone and why is there no reserve?

This is pretty much the crux of my own pet peeve as well. Basically, the game makes it clear that there is a system in effect, a system of which there is NO MENTION in canon games (meaning, Ame spontaneously decided to include it, nobody forced her), and then it blatantly disrespects it. Why introducing a system if you were going to disrespect it anyway?

And again, I would like to stress the fact that "Reborn is a dystopian story" is NOT a valid in-universe justification as to why something is or isn't done, simply because the fourth wall exists. If the in-game Ame was asked why, when and on what basis she decided to appoint Noel as a gym leader, she could not reply "because Reborn is a dystopian story" because she, being a character of the story, is not supposed to BE AWARE of being the character of a dystopian story.

I therefore stand by my point: I fully expect later episodes to provide satisfying in-universe explanation as to why/when/how Shade and the orphaned kids got their respective positions, as well as why they got to keep them despite their respective situations calling for the reserve system to be enforced. For completeness' sake if nothing else. Although I do appreciate the fact that, as ICSW pointed out, steps in this direction have already been made as of Ep 15.

Sorry if my quote isn't perfect but...

Upon unmasking Corey

Corey- You just had to do this in front of the girl...

Heather-Dad?.. I knew you were a a jerk but I didn't think you were evil Flies away*

Chief- Corey but the gym trainers are among reborn's most trusted "Citizens"

If the police are calling them citizens then how are they responsible for things the police can't control. Also back to the argument that because they're good with pokemon that means they handle pokemon related issues is like saying the NRA should be put on issues of domestic violence too because they have sharpshooters and are well versed in gun knowledge. Someone can't be responsible for certain things unless the responsibility is specifically placed on them. I agree leaders should be involved but if they were hired for competition then it isn't fair to say they're responsible.

Again Damage, your perspective is wrong. In the Pokemon world, society has always been shown to be a peaceful, somewhat childish dystopia that the most experienced at Pokemon battling (I.E. the gym leaders) can easily keep under control. Sure, crime syndacates are born here and there, but they aren't THAT dangerous, considering that a primary school kid is perfectly capable of thwarting their plans single-handedly.

Reborn deconstructs this notion. So yeah, the situation you are talking about is a contraddiction, but the fact of the matter is, Ame purposedly worded it as a contraddiction to expose the childishness of the way society is depicted in canon games. That is what "deconstructing" means.

And as far as the "responsible" part goes, again, it is the reverse: imagine a group of 100 people. They are all expert battlers. Of those 100 people, who are all equally skilled at Pokemon, the 8 who prove to be the most responsible are chosen to be gym leaders. This is how it should work in theory, although there are exceptions and, again, Reborn purposedly deconstructs the notion (although it goes too far at times, as detailed in my earlier posts).

[Masquerain]

I think we likely will not receive explanation for these things because the gym leaders are gym leaders due to the fact that the real people behind the characters were gym leaders in the reborn online league

[not-a-spoon]

And as far as the "responsible" part goes, again, it is the reverse: imagine a group of 100 people. They are all expert battlers. Of those 100 people, who are all equally skilled at Pokemon, the 8 who prove to be the most responsible are chosen to be gym leaders. This is how it should work in theory, although there are exceptions and, again, Reborn purposedly deconstructs the notion (although it goes too far at times, as detailed in my earlier posts).

Which sounds great and all, but still does not really adress the fact the Reborn tries to implement some very mature and responsible storytelling on the one hand, but at the same time still hands out gymleader titles to little children. This remains conflicting to me. The way I perceive it through the games is that being a gymleader is a title that comes with sometimes rather large expectations and responsibilities. Its in my opinion by definition not the kind of responsibility you hand out to little children.

You also dont ask an 8 year old to run a local community centre. Or an actual gym.

[Damage]

And as far as the "responsible" part goes, again, it is the reverse: imagine a group of 100 people. They are all expert battlers. Of those 100 people, who are all equally skilled at Pokemon, the 8 who prove to be the most responsible are chosen to be gym leaders. This is how it should work in theory, although there are exceptions and, again, Reborn purposedly deconstructs the notion (although it goes too far at times, as detailed in my earlier posts).

I don't know the world the show has created or the manga for that matter but being chosen for the league which at the end of the day is a competition doesn't necessarily make you responsible. Unless of course they were told at that time they are in fact responsible for parts of the region. If that's the case then I have no argument but the only ones who know the levels of responsibility would be Ame, the champion, E4 and the leaders. The leaders have been shown to protect in the cases of Julia and Florinia mainly. But otherwise I don't want to place the burden on a character that never accepted it. Example being I don't think Shelly at any point in time was told should dangerous individuals attack your town you need to take them down otherwise she wouldn't have ran from the cops. In fact why would any gym leader run from the cops if their jurisdiction was lower than an insane orphanage runner. Why would they be locked in an orphanage if their rank dictated they could take care of themselves?

[Chase]

I don't know how long this has exactly been in game - but the orphanage leaders are expected to conduct their battles in-house (during the orphanage raid, there is a room that is identified as an arena and ever since Ame replaced the Gym Guy with the monitor that she uses to help you herself - Ame herself will say that she will "talk with [Dr. Connal] later" about the situation through one such monitor outside of the orphanage arena's door.)

To answer your questioning of the Orphanage leaders - the Orphanage is the site of their Gym - and the player technically busts them out of said Gym - which so happens to be mismanaged by Dr. Connal. (i.e. having you examined by his lackeys only to tell you the leaders aren't taking challenges during the first time you enter the Orphanage.) --- This means then - that the orphans don't have to be able to leave the orphanage at all in order to be worthy of their gym leader title.

I -do- see what you're saying about potential overkill for the sake of story telling - but I don't think she is being shortsighted so much as she is prioritizing one over the other the same way Game Freak does in reverse.

On the flip-slide, you don't see anything in the original series that suggests that Gym Leaders must hold their official league matches in their gyms other than the leaders - if encountered first outside of their gym - returning to their post before battling the player. If it's only a trend produced by the dialogue. In fact (due to circumstance) we actually -do- hold a gym battle outside of an official gym in that Blaine in Gen II is battling out of the Seafoam Islands (i think) due to Cinnabar Island's eruption.

Perhaps, the badge is just a symbolic form of word-of-mouth that a player has indeed beaten so-and-so, rather than THE indicator that a player has beaten so-and-so. Only void in Reborn and the original games if A - the gym leader refuses to acknowledge the victory, or B - if the gym leader dies.

[Masquerain]

I don't know how long this has exactly been in game - but the orphanage leaders are expected to conduct their battles in-house (during the orphanage raid, there is a room that is identified as an arena and ever since Ame replaced the Gym Guy with the monitor that she uses to help you herself - Ame herself will say that she will "talk with [Dr. Connal] later" about the situation through one such monitor outside of the orphanage arena's door.)

To answer your questioning of the Orphanage leaders - the Orphanage is the site of their Gym - and the player technically busts them out of said Gym - which so happens to be mismanaged by Dr. Connal. (i.e. having you examined by his lackeys only to tell you the leaders aren't taking challenges during the first time you enter the Orphanage.) --- This means then - that the orphans don't have to be able to leave the orphanage at all in order to be worthy of their gym leader title.

I -do- see what you're saying about potential overkill for the sake of story telling - but I don't think she is being shortsighted so much as she is prioritizing one over the other the same way Game Freak does in reverse.

On the flip-slide, you don't see anything in the original series that suggests that Gym Leaders must hold their official league matches in their gyms other than the leaders - if encountered first outside of their gym - returning to their post before battling the player. If it's only a trend produced by the dialogue. In fact (due to circumstance) we actually -do- hold a gym battle outside of an official gym in that Blaine in Gen II is battling out of the Seafoam Islands (i think) due to Cinnabar Island's eruption.

Perhaps, the badge is just a symbolic form of word-of-mouth that a player has indeed beaten so-and-so, rather than THE indicator that a player has beaten so-and-so. Only void in Reborn and the original games if A - the gym leader refuses to acknowledge the victory, or B - if the gym leader dies.

Charlotte has her gym in calcenon though.. Only Noel supposedly has his in the orphanage..the rest are higher positions than a gym leader