Shandera Tier Review

[Noivy]

Look, This is clearly going nowhere, but still Im going to say something.
If you ban one thing, the visitors will hunger for more.

And we dont want to be like smogon

Lets just keep it, besides, thats what pokemon with volt swith and U-turn are for.

[Dragonz996]

Honestly I find this a great topic, I get to see opinions of others about Shadow Tag Chandelure(except for Mew, Mafia and Cyrus's posts that got deleted)

[Amethyst]

Deleted for being completely off topic, mind.

[Kimiko]

Mastershaper: Well thank you for the post, and I try to at least have some number base on the side to know what the over all statistics maybe for a given point.

You mention 2 points, but that's not the ideal basis I have seeing shandy.

See you looked at it nicely but narrowed the scope just a tid bit, and from that you lost the 3rd point in that series or the one I would see as the 3rd point.

Shandy is a revenge killer, say it took out a pokemon one you figure eh alright it's down. But what...If that pokemon was your one way of stopping something else on their team and you didn't realize it till it was to late. As I pointed out it's about Punching holes for others to exploit, by taking down something you may not known of being needed to them it was and they can play that game with out it being a problem now. Leading to kills and a possible win for them because of it.


Priority is a nice thing, it can be very deadly if used in the right situations, but in the Shandera situation...Priority really doesn't mean much.

Priority Attacks.
Quick Attack = Immune to it.
Extreme Speed = Immune to it.
Mach Punch = Immune to it.
Vacuum wave = Immune to it.

Sucker Punch = Weak against it, but limited user base and thus easily foreseen.

Dugtrio, well a halfway experienced player wouldn't bring it in on dug as that's a basic staple move for dugtrio.

Toxicroak, Same issue as above they don't run them with out it really as that's one way they are even remotely able to deal with things such as Espeon or Gengar, and etc.

Conkeldurr, Timid nature overheat does vs.
252/0 Adamant Leftovers Roobushin : 85% - 100.2% (possible OHKO with SR)

Meaning 252 HP conkeldurr, running modest instead of that you'll get a OHKO.


Gallade/dusknoir/shedinja with Shadow Sneak (limited usage, but respectable nonetheless).

Now these ones, they don't always pack it...But that would be a risk play

Gallade would be the large one to worry about over all...

Duskinor if you pack a toxic heal gliscor that can be your ace in the hole against him or anyone else.

Shed, boy I haven't seen him in a long time but most standard sets run, S-Dance, Sucker Punch, Shadow Sneak, X-Scissor.
Which means you wouldn't be wise to bring it against him, and as you mentioned SR being Shandy limiter, well same applies here, same with weather.

[quote]Even a cacturne, shiftry, or bisharp could rip chandelure a new one (again, they are uncommon, but shiftry seems to be a tad popular in sun teams of late, at least on PO and the PBC. Cacturne has appeared in sand quite a bit, too).[/quote]
Ah Cacturne one of my friends and my own favorite grass type pokemon, it's also dark type, slow and known for sucker punch. Wouldn't bring it against it.

Bisharp is the same slow, and known for sucker punch.

Shiftry is dark type but most may not know it has sucker punch, but you normally run them in sun teams anyway.

You say it's risky...But depending on what team-mates it has it may not be all that risky, if you can build one up right knowing what it's majority weak to and work around that aspect...You can make sure even that switch wont mean a massive hurt, unless something like a crit were to appear.

The human element works on both ways it can be hurtful or it can make shandy a massive force of crippling power.


Bullet

[quote]The number of Pokemon that can truly kill it reliably are incredibly slim. Pursuit users, Dugtrio, and uhhh. That's it, really.[/quote]
Pursuit, I'll give you that it is a way to rid your self of shandera, but out of the 1st 25 top rated on the server while that data isn't conclusive to real time use but for lack of better options using it here. Out of that top 25, 2 pokemon have pursuit and can use it effectively in their move sets.

One of which isn't a threat, simply because it has a MASSIVE weakness to one it's stab and that means it may not get it the 1st time around allowing for 2 KO's.

Which is 1/3 of your team, may seem like not much but that can mean the game. Because a -2 Overheat will still OHKO scizor, in fact a -6 Overheat will still OHKO scizor. While you have a 3/4 shot at getting it on one of those moves it's still kinda iffy because if you do go in on overheat it may have SR damage on it...Thinking that a BP may scare it out because of a possible chance for kill and go pursuit....Well...It might cost you. It's plausible and workable with scizor but it's also got risk factor.

The only other option used viably in OU with pursuit is T-Tar, which case this would be the one solid 100% check for it if you're running pursuit tar. It's not a bad set though people may not want to run it just because....

But that takes us to, having to have something on a team to able to stand on an average footing. Meaning if you don't have it, you're already out the door bad because of it. I've noticed that it's mentioned well the regulars don't have a problem, that's nice...But new people are who become regulars possibly, giving them a sub level of merit is kinda iffy, they may not have this set put up or run a rain team which may lead to them being out a lot more then someone who was forced to adapt solely because Shandera is running around.

Dugtrio, Does arena Trap and shadow tag cancel out? If so then it's just a switch out if not then you finally have a revenge for Shandy works depending on it's set and so forth.


Stealth Rocks/Spikes are a big power limiter for him, I believe it's 4 or 5 entries after SR is up, which then allows Priority stab or non stab to possibly take effect if they have it and it works against him. But as you mentioned it's not exactly always going to be there with spinners and etc.

Also you are right the actual % usage isn't listed so you can't 100% see, but a smaller option could be to have a poll up on who uses shandera on their teams. It wont be 100% again but it can get a basic general idea of what might be actually like. As well Kudos to you for being the post so far with the most backing to it in a manor of speaking.



Neo
Really now? Since when was I complaining? If I recall correctly I'm Debating a valid point on which should something be banned or not.

As well I refer you to my comment in the reply to Bullets post, me being a non reg means little, in fact it puts me in a better spot to actually see how little you would use these ones brought up so far against it, anywhere else because they are the one things for it. With out them the game changes.

No one had an issue? Well if not one had an issue I'd be the 1st thread on here period about Shandera and from replies to this it seems I am not, which thus says there has been some. As well there are people who are for banning it and some who are neutral, and of course those who are against it.

So you're also saying that because it's been in there so long, you've had to make team that have counters for it solely based because it exists and has it's ability as well as potential to rape portions of teams allowing an easy win for the said person? Because that sounds like grounds for being a little broken.

As for it stance...One person can change the world...We have seen this plenty of times in history, so what does me being one person have to do with it? If my numbers and data are correct?


Owen
Well I like the simplicity of your post, and it's direct to the point catch.

But I have to reply with basically just this, What else would be banned? Nothing else really poses a broken threat. The only thing that smogon currently does different would be drizzle and swift swim. Banning one pokemon doesn't exactly make anyone think they can get more, in fact if shandy got banned I think it would open the play up a little more if anything and you'd see more things expand. But I don't really see a call for something to be banned beyond this one.

As for U-Turn and Volt Switch, Yes they do work so does baton pass...Issue with them is you HAVE to be faster for them to work.


Winter
I'm not calling for you do be smogon, nor do I want it to be smogon. I'm just calling for a review and possible ban of a single pokemon based on actual number merit as well as usage and the abilities it has set forth for it by centralizing it's self.


Dragonz
Well thank you, for the open mindedness that comes with wanting to see what people have to say to various subjects

[Neo]

[color="#9932CC"]You forgot one surprisingly common priority move *cough* aqua jet *cough. Also in response to your response: There are obvious reasons as to why this discussion hasn't been brought up. The big reason is that the majority of us have enough experience working around Chandy (since its not banned and all). From what I've seen you only bring up one set of Chandy, which implies that it is the only one people use. That is like banning Kingdra due to rain, or Garchomp because of sand, hell even banning Excadrill due to it being ridiculous in Sand. It makes absolutely no sense to ban a Pokemon solely because of how it functions with one set up.


Here is the most used set Chandelure @ Focus Sash Lv. 100 -- Shadow Tag
Nature: Timid - EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd (90.0 %)[Fighting]
Nature: Modest - EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd (6.0 %)[Ice]
Nature: Modest - EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd (4.0 %)[Rock]
Hidden Power
Shadow Ball
Heat Wave
Energy Ball
# 2 - 11.78 % (43 battles) So uh, uber where?
[/rant][/color]

[Mashew]

I understand the point of this topic, I really do. I also see why you would feel this way and that is a strong passion of yours. But we made the Reborn tier lists not just the auth and all but ALL members made it. If the members had a problem with Chandelure it'd be uber and done with. I thank you for showing us all of this and stating a valid argument but as some of the others said. It is an endless topic but I highly doubt this will change where Chandy is in the Reborn tiers.

[Rodaku]

from my point, the chandelure is just like a revenge killer, like other revenge killers it needs its signature to make it unique
look at the... green... snake... starter thing... (sorry, bad with names) unlike shady who keeps you there and kills you there, he comes out and you can choose to try to have a fighting chance or run and let it start to get crazy with its leaf storming boosts of happiness
the chandelure can only function if there is one pokemon, but looking at the OU list, most pokemon by the looks can easily handle it, we have tons of sand... tons of water, tons of that stuff, he can only be used to limit the other revenge killer or sweepers it can somewhat handle, that is to say, it knows it will kill it
true chandelure kills when it comes in cause it knows you are either your not fast enough or it knows all your moves making it know it can easily come in and beat you up, true it can say hi and then bye but then again, its to afraid to come back. ive battled a bit here a lots of times and i have barely seen that thing come into play in a long time, even if it did, chances are i would beat it up cause i run gallade as a sweeper, most teams now a days have priority moves by the looks of it and if you can trick your opponent to thinking all you have is a simple choice item, its not that hard to get rid of it. basically thou, chandelure is just a revenge killer, and a good one at that, but... flaws come with flaws, and that being only one good set to use, making it predictable if you see it, stats come and stats go, it may be strong, it may be fast, but it doesn't have anything to use to outspeed priority plus by the looks of your priority you gave are kinda not that much seen, mach punch and extreme speed yes.. but the other to... nah, most ive ever seen was maybe shadow sneak or sucker punch. sucker punch is easy to get chandelure with BUT it can easily predict that pokemon and run if it see's a dark type, bisharp and shiftrey and cacturn thou are easy baits for chandelure to come out and play, thou if cacturn is predictable with sucker punch... then yea. shadow sneak on the other hand seems like great bait thou since ghosts types are weak to ghost types in general, heck even gallade has it, a ever Larger lure since its a psycic/fighting giving it a want to come out if you are having that as your lead. anyways chandelure... i haven't seen that thing since everyone was hipped over the new generation but hey, we have our own oppinions, but opinions are opinions... if you try to change something with that its not gonna work, if you wanna prove chandelure your gonna have to do more then just give numbers and stats. and on that note, if we banned that thing, then it will be forever lost since it cant do anything in ubers rank, i mean look at them, most of them resist him the only one being shaymin but thats about it, seriously, you have to think at it in two perspectives, first what it would be in one rank, then in the other