Is Red really a Champion in Gen 2?

[Wolfox]

BEFORE YOU VOTE, toss all bias you have for or against Red aside and forget about the events of Gen 1 for a sec. This is strictly a question about Gen 2 Red. NOT Gen 1 Red. If you are unable to separate the two I request you do not vote.

 

It's been a while since I've tried opening a can of worms that should just remain closed. So let's go with one again. Is Red really a champion in Gen 2? As I said above, I want you to remove all bias you have for Red and to only think of Gen 2 Red. because while Gen 1 red is badass (according to most. I don't really see it), we're not talking about him. "But He's one and the same" I don't care. We're talking Gen 2 Red. Not gen 1 Red.

 

And for my vote: No. Red is a HIDDEN BOSS in Gen 2. Not a Champion. If we're gonna count hidden bosses as Champs then Cynthia is one in gen 5, Steven one in Emerald and so on and so forth. Red is the same as Cynthia and Steven in these situations, so why would any of them be considered a Champion?

[Guest Relinquished]

Of course he is. Highest leveled pokemon (compared to elite four/lance), last accessible area in the game... Also, Lance had never been the champion and was in fact beaten by Blue first, in gen 1, then Red. Since he lost already since previous generation, even if by title only he seems to be the champ in 2, doesn't exactly hold any weight, significance, etc. Lance = placeholder

[Wolfox]

2 minutes ago, GS BALL said:

Of course he is. Highest leveled pokemon (compared to elite four/lance), last accessible area in the game... Also, Lance had never been the champion and was in fact beaten by Blue first, in gen 1, then Red. Since he lost already since previous generation, even if by title only he seems to be the champ in 2, doesn't exactly hold any weight, significance, etc. Lance = placeholder

the highest level mon argument is kinda false IMO. Considering Cynthia in Gen 5 has the same levels as Alder, and considering her a champ in gen 5 is wrong. high-level mons doesn't instantly make you the champion

[Guest Relinquished]

1 hour ago, Wolfox said:

the highest level mon argument is kinda false IMO. Considering Cynthia in Gen 5 has the same levels as Alder, and considering her a champ in gen 5 is wrong. high-level mons doesn't instantly make you the champion

Gen 2/4 was way before cross-generation cameos became a thing, though...

[Zarc]

In my opinion , speaking of Red , we cannot really talk about him in gen 2 without mentionning gen 1 first. But if someone start pokemon at gen 2 games , and even if we had to completely forget gen 1 events , there are still somes mention of Red in gen 2 games saying that he defeated team rocket , beated the league and become the champion. 

 

So , for me it's a yes. 

[Wolfox]

1 minute ago, GS BALL said:

Gen 2 was way before cross-generation cameos became a thing, though...

which excuses it because? Gen 2 started the hidden boss trainer trend with Red, so why would Red be counted a Champion while being a hidden boss while Cynthia isn't?

[Guest Relinquished]

1 hour ago, Wolfox said:

which excuses it because? Gen 2 started the hidden boss trainer trend with Red, so why would Red be counted a Champion while being a hidden boss while Cynthia isn't?

Ok! Because in canon (game-wise), Red is gen 1 player and DID become the champion? Then he simply set off for journey and training? Without losing (the title) to Lance in battle? I insist to "Lance = Placeholder". With strong emphasis to the word "Placeholder"!

[Wolfox]

Who says Red didn't just give up his title the way Alder did to Iris? is Iris just a Placeholder while Alder still reigns as Champion? No

[Guest Relinquished]

1 hour ago, Wolfox said:

Who says Red didn't just give up his title the way Alder did to Iris? is Iris just a Placeholder while Alder still reigns as Champion? No

Red doesn't give anything, not even a single spoken word, lol. It's just impossible. Lance is "Placeholder" for another reason, though... He is defeated very shortly after, once again, by gen 2 player (Gold). Couldn't be more temporary, more placeholder, more... Dare i say that word... "Insignificant"?

 

Yet, bulbapedia lists both as champions. Although i am not very fond of mister placeholder being next to Red, i am willing to reach as compromise, that middle ground solution.

[Zarc]

Depend of the meaning of " champion " , if you say league master , then no Red clearly isn't the gen 2 league master. But he is a champion (.) because he did beat the league.

 

 

And it's a question of in games mentioning in my opinion. Someone who will start pokemon at gen 5 will probably don't know that Cynthia is actually the gen 4 league master , so just a simple ending boss. 

[Lord Drakyle]

I'm gonna change the course of the iewing a bit, Red is NOT the Champion, rather he simply either rejected to hold the position or just does not want any responsibility tied with it, another possibility is he went into training and gave up the title, it would make no sense for Will, Karen and Koga all to become part of the Elite 4 and Lance to act as a Placeholder with no mention of it, he clearly states you are the New Champion, maybe Red WAS a champion but it can be greatly inferred from the fact Lance refers to you as the new champion that he no longer holds the title, if he was only a placeholder he could not grant you the title of being Champion as the 'real Champion' would remain undefeated and would simply let you enter the Hall of Fame records, the battle against Red is simply a battle against someone who has done everything you done first the only competition left between the two of you is who is stronger.

[Zarc]

it's simple , to me : Red isn't THE champion , he is A champion. 

[Lord Drakyle]

3 minutes ago, Zarc said:

it's simple , to me : Red isn't THE champion , he is A champion. 

I find that highly unlikely, Johto and Kanto seem to share an Elite 4, for Red to be a Champion who still holds the title of being a Champion would require him to be Champion of another League but at the time of the game, there is only that one league.

[Ojama Yellow]

red isnt a champion anymore. every region only has one champion, otherwise the title just wouldnt make any sense. so while he is a former champion, he isnt really a champion in gen II. same thing with alder in bw2, really.

 

he is, however, a legendary trainer that is stronger than the champion. again, this is nothing we havent seen before (emerald steven etc). being the strongest trainer doesnt necessarily equal being the champion, though.

[Zarc]

Red in gen 2 can easily be compared to each protagonists we play in a common pokemon game. On each games , we have to beat every champions and then beat the league , but do we really become the champion ? I find this question interesting. 

 

 

On the paper , yes. We become the new league master ( " congratulations to the new league master " ) 

 

 

BUT

 

 

We are doing exactly the same thing as Red , it mean we don't stay at the league and assuming our position as league master , no. Like Red , we are doing our life , catching news mons , legendaries etc. Proof is : each times we restart the league , we have to beat the previous champion all the times. So basically nothing changed.

 

That's why i enjoyed the way gen 7 was made , cause at the end we are clearly the league master and challengers are coming to defeat us. 

[Guest Relinquished]

2 hours ago, Ojama Yellow said:

red isnt a champion anymore. every region only has one champion, otherwise the title just wouldnt make any sense. so while he is a former champion, he isnt really a champion in gen II. same thing with alder in bw2, really.

 

he is, however, a legendary trainer that is stronger than the champion. again, this is nothing we havent seen before (emerald steven etc). being the strongest trainer doesnt necessarily equal being the champion, though.

You might want to reconsider. Steven was champion in Ruby Sapphire, Wallace in Emerald. Also, it is about a generation's champion, not a region's...