Baton pass and Swagger? ~Voting Ends June 25th~

[Shamitako]

OMG Aqua yes

Exactly

If we're taking it out because of luck, then I really have a problem with that

EDIT: Also, Swagger has a %10 miss chance. Which doesn't sound like a lot, but if you're missing approx 1/10, then you're likely to miss at least once at a key point in a battle. The odds are never actually 50/50 (I was actually gonna say this yesterday but it got too ranty XD) And the snap-out chance is actually fairly high. While yes it's still luck based, the odds are generally in the opponents favor, except when T-Wave is also in effect. And T-Wave has two entire types that block it (Plus Sand is the only weather I've seen still being run fairly often)

Edited June 13, 2014 by MasterWeavile898

[Reignited'Light]

OMG Aqua yes

Exactly

If we're taking it out because of luck, then I really have a problem with that

EDIT: Also, Swagger has a %10 miss chance. Which doesn't sound like a lot, but if you're missing approx 1/10, then you're likely to miss at least once at a key point in a battle. The odds are never actually 50/50 (I was actually gonna say this yesterday but it got too ranty XD) And the snap-out chance is actually fairly high. While yes it's still luck based, the odds are generally in the opponents favor, except when T-Wave is also in effect. And T-Wave has two entire types that block it (Plus Sand is the only weather I've seen still being run fairly often)

Well we are not trying to ban it because of luck. If we are, we might as well not be playing pokemon then. It's about the manipulable odds that are being abused.

Swagger does have a 10% miss true. But by the time you miss, you'll be behind a sub with a paralyzed opponent.

SO when you add everything up, the odds are of hitting through the Confusion AND the Paralysis are so little. To about a 25% chance of breaking out. Which is VERY bad. Also Pokemon is about the Player's skill. And spamming Swagger and Subsituting takes very little skill if not, none at all. You're relying on a luck based strategy whether the opponent will hit itself or not. Or being Paralyzed for that matter.

(Though there are a small select few of moves that manipulate the odds of "Hax" such as Focus Energy, it serves little purpose other than the infamous Kingdra Sniper Focus Energy and Scope Lens combo.

[Joker]

No matter how you look at it, Swagger IS completely luck based, there is absolutely NO skill involved with that move. I don't care how much you want to delude yourself in thinking otherwise. It does not take skill to predict a switch with Swagger, because that is gonna happen since you're spamming the move.(not to mention that prediction isn't a skill, it's more based on experience with the game). It is a 50/50 chance for the opponent to hit themselves, that's how confusion works.

Moving on. Luck has no counter, none. You cannot say you can counter a 50/50 chance. You can prevent the move with things like Magic Bounce and Own Tempo, but that's not countering luck, that's countering Swagger. We're getting that confused. It is a luck abusing move, not luck itself. If it lands you can't do anything but hope you are the lucky one.(With the exception of Own Tempo).

OMG Aqua yes

Exactly

If we're taking it out because of luck, then I really have a problem with that

EDIT: Also, Swagger has a %10 miss chance. Which doesn't sound like a lot, but if you're missing approx 1/10, then you're likely to miss at least once at a key point in a battle. The odds are never actually 50/50 (I was actually gonna say this yesterday but it got too ranty XD) And the snap-out chance is actually fairly high. While yes it's still luck based, the odds are generally in the opponents favor, except when T-Wave is also in effect. And T-Wave has two entire types that block it (Plus Sand is the only weather I've seen still being run fairly often)

Regarding your edit: 10% miss chance is not a lot, so it missing would be unlucky for the user, and lucky for the opponent. Which means it would still take luck to avoid confusion. The 50/50 only applies when Swagger hits and confuses the target. So yes, it's always 50/50.

The amount of times that has been said here...gosh

It's not even a coin flip, first off in a literal sense, only with swagger on the first turn of being confused, after that you have the better chance. And then you get paralysed which makes the odds harder for you. I for one like probability and don't think it should be banned for that one reason.

Does it take out strategy? Yes, but not for the person who started it all and there is some sort of strategy in the mind games you have to play with others in it, like predicting if they're going to switch out and what not, because there are many ways around it, although it is still all based on chance for that way around it, such as a ground type that can OHKO it with the swag boost

As for BP, it's a nice thing really, your pokemon powering up to support each other. However it does become really bothersome and the only real way it can get "unbeatable" is if you set them completely set up and then pass it all onto Espeon. There are very few ways to actually deal with it because you do have to hope for a crit at times, which still can't be enough. And so either you hope to get a taunt in before that happens or have something with belly drum on stand by...inb4 burn and no one really likes belly drum.

So limiting BP to two or three pokemon would be best and if there are three then there shouldn't be Espeon, not sure if you can really do that but that's how I see it

Any physical OU ground type(and some that are not ground types) can OHKO Klefki without +2, and common knowledge would tell you to bring in something that can hit back with SE damage. What you're forgetting is that thing also has Substitute and can just spam that until you hit yourself.

Anyway. Despite all that, Swagger by itself wouldn't be bad. A lot of people here use Klefki as their example, and while I tried to avoid that, it is the the main reason. There are many factors in why Prankster+Swagger wasn't a thing in 5th. Weather is the biggest, namely Sand. If Sableye(which was the only good Prankster then) was used, it had Will-O-Wisp to support the team. The reason was for things like Excadrill, Landorus, Tyranitar, etc. Will-O-Wisp, as you can imagine, would completely contradict the point of Swagger. So it was not used. Now that weather has been nerfed and we have another good Prankster Pokemon(with great typing I might add) you can see its rise in popularity.

As I mentioned above, Swagger by itself wouldn't be bad. So, I believe that if we do have a ban, it should be a complex ban, banning Prankster+Swagger. Klefki will still have use, as will Sableye, and even Whimsicott. Anyone that still wants to use Swagger still can, and it will be easier to deal with.

Voting has started. What we should focus on is how we'll go about banning if the votes lean towards a ban.

As for Baton Pass, I've only seen it from Slant and DD. It was seen last gen too. I don't have much to say on that one, and voting has started anyway, so it hardly matters now.

[Cowtao]

I think after reading everyone's decisions and votes I think I have a generally summary.

I think it's pretty huge that Baton Pass needs to be nerfed. Though it can be stopped, the ways you can stop it are extremely niche and have little to no use outside Reborn's meta. It's not impossible to beat and there can be a few holes that some pokemon can punch through, but more often to not, it's a giant win button.

Swagger has a lot of arguments. I'll be honest, this was surprisingly a lot more civil than I thought and almost all of you had very good points. I think the decision to ban Swagger entirely now seems like an unpopular decision. Perhaps we can discuss ways to nerf it instead. I am fully prepared to admit that swagger isn't always broken. There are actually a lot more ways to stop it than I thought there was. But I am sticking to my own viewpoint as well, Swagger is annoying.. There are a lot more ways to stop a SwagPlay user than there is for BP, but there is still so much going for SwagPlay that it's a little too overpowered.

If everyone is comfortable, I think it's high tide we discuss ways we can nerf SwagPlay and BP to a meta we can be proud of. Unless there is any more to discuss that hasn't already been mentioned, I would like for this to be handled quickly so everyone can be happy.

[Swimming95]

As much as I really really don't think either should be banned... if we do have to go down that route, lets list the options. Please let me know if there is any complex ban I am forgetting.

SWAGGER:

1) Ban Swagger

2) Ban Swagger + Prankster

3) Ban Klefki+Swagger+Prankser

4) Don't ban Swagger?

BP:

1) Ban BP

2) Ban more than 3 Pokemon with BP

3) Ban more than 3 Pokemon with BP and a Magic Bounce User

4) Ban more than X Pokemon with BP (X to be filled in by a different number that the community agrees on)

5) Don't ban BP?

The use of this post is for when the next poll is made so we are all on the same page as to what needs to be voted on

[SJMistery]

i say 2 and 2, BP is viable with just 3 pokemon and a good amount of skill (quick smashpass being the most obvious way), plus , and swagger without priority is easily blocked by a Substitute.

[Kamina]

Tbh when I made the poll I was not sure whether a complex ban was an option with reborn tiers. If it is possible, only getting rid of prankster + swagger is preferable. I am not able to get on laptop anytime soon but if you are to update the polls it seems like the majority already wants something done with swagger and Bp so option 4 should be eliminated for swagger and option 5 should be eliminated for baton pass.

[Swimming95]

Complex bans mean that I have to spend a bit of time and script in the ban... THINK OF THE SWIMMING95 (SAY NO TO BANNING) I also can't update the poll as I am not a forum mod, someone else needs to do so. I guess those options seem good?

[Cowtao]

I can edit the poll I think. I think an option we haven't discussed is banning BP with Magic Bounce and Speed Boost.

From seeing some things on the reborn ladder, quickpass is deadly as hell. You would get the benefit of nerfing BP and potentially fix the issues between Blaziken and Scolipede.

[Kamina]

Yea please do update the poll. As for other complex bans on baton pass you could also have a ban on bp+magic bounce+speed boost.

[Ikaru]

Given the poll results are in favor of banning both I've updated it with the options Swim listed previously

For reference:

EDIT: actually, maybe we should include something about Swagger and Foul Play (and, maybe pushing it, Prankster as well) together? That seems to be one of the bigger things

[Kamina]

Thanks ikaru! Yea if people can think of other idea which they think is popular they can list it and when I come back I can update the list. Since people can delete vote it should be fine

[chuckles]

Swagger can be a problem because pokemon with Prankster will spam it, making sure that any pokemon you have is constantly confused. Since i don't regularly run pokemon with Own Tempo, this has been consistently annoying (probably because my luck is ridiculously terrible) so i think it should at least not be allowed on pokemon with Prankster, because unless you have extreme speed, magic bounce, or own tempo, you're pretty much guaranteed to become confused. When combined with Foul Play, it's devastating, because even if a pokemon is a special attacker, with a low attack stat, it will be raised more and more, and then destroyed. It really does become a game of luck at that point.

Baton Pass, on the other hand, is fairly easy to counter, mainly because it really requires a lot of set up, and a sweeper can simply take out the baton pass pokemon. The most common baton pass pokemon seems to be Ninjask, which is really quite fragile. Even if you don't take out the pokemon before it passes some stat boosts, you can switch in a tank holding a Red Card (that's a viable solution to a wide variety of problems) or simply set up as the passer is setting up as well, and destroy the pokemon upon switch-in. I could go on. Baton Passing as a strategy can be very effective, especially when passing boosts onto a pokemon that cannot boost itself in that way. All in all though, it's fairly easy to counter in general, if you can be prepared for it.

[Cowtao]

I think a disclaimer should be out that we are at the brainstorming stage and that these aren't the final options. >>;

For reference we could add in remove Foul play, Remove Swagger or Foul Play, Removing SB with Baton Pass.

[Ikaru]

This is no longer about whether or not they're counterable or banworthy, and on that note, any further posts in that vein will be deleted. This has gone well so far, please don't derail it now.

I added an "Other" option to both so people can pick that and explain; if anyone wants to change their vote to that, they can, but if you do so, or any future votes are chosen, please elaborate or it'll probably be disregarded.

[Shamitako]

I think that limiting BP to three Pokes is fine. It doesn't totally ruin it as a strategy (As you could still run Scolipede/Espeon/Smeargle) But it severely limits it, and allows for someone who's chain has been broken to still battle, instead of being forced to quit

[Kiozo]

Voted other on BP because if there's literally anything that will throw BP down a notch all you need to do is Ban Magic Bounce + BP. Once that happens, they have no resistance to things like Taunt and Roar. Speed Boost doesn't effect Roar at all, Prankster Taunt's will still go first, yada ya. Baton Pass is already iffy without Magic Bouncing, limiting it to 3 BP on a team means you literally might as well consider it as Smeargle/Ninjask leads and call BP a gimmick again.

[Cowtao]

Speed Boost somewhat matters as the pokemon given Speed Boost have ways of disposing Xatu, Espeon, and Mega-Absol such as Scolipede's Megahorn and Blaziken's High Jump Kick/Shadow Claw

[Shamitako]

Speed boost is also one of the main uses of BP

I have a friend that runs a Ninjask lead into a Belly Drum Azumarill. And lemme tell ya, that thing wrecks shit if played right. But it's not unbeatable either, in fact, I beat it my first try with my Greninja (back when I was using that as a Toxic Spikes lead, bet you can't guess what the main thing that let me kill it was )

Also, I didn't think any of those three were threats to BP?

[Cowtao]

Alright, here's the gist for y'all.

I am gonna be hosting up a little meeting for anybody concerned with this topic and we are gonna talk about every option in detail to figuring out which are viable options and unhealthy options for Reborn's Meta. We might also possibly include new options if discussed so keep a look out for that. When the meeting is over, the final choice list will be picked and then everybody will vote on it.

The meeting will be tomorrow at 7:00 / 7:30 depending on the time schedule. Be there or be square.

[Dark Desire]

The meeting will be tomorrow at 7:00 / 7:30 depending on the time schedule. Be there or be square.

should i assume those are EST times?

[Cowtao]

Yeah, standard EST time.

[Chevaleresse]

eastern standard time time?

[Cowtao]

Yeah eastern standard time. >>; I already kinda got asked that.

Meeting is gonna be in a few minutes or a half-hour if we need to pick up more stranglers.

[Cowtao]

Alright y'all! This is the final list of options and the final voting process. After June 25th the votes will tallied up and our Squattle will handle the coding bit. Thank you all for participating in the meeting.

Exercise that democracy!

EDIT: The thread is unlocked for purely voting purposes. Any comments after this one will be deleted.

June 25th Edit: WELP. The voting is finally over! The winners and the options that will be edited into Reborn will be to ban Swagger entirely and to limit Baton Pass to two pokemon.