Kamina Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Pokemon is most fun when it involves more skill and less hax as possible. Evasion is the epitome of hax in that the user relies on misses to win the game. Now i know what most of you conservative reborners are thinking " We have had this since the beginning and it is what separates us from other servers" Just because you have been using the same clauses from the start does not mean that they are without flaw. Also the argument that we will be going down a slippery slope if we implement evasion into ladder is absurd. Evasion has absolutely nothing to do with swift swim or exadrills for that matter so we will still remain distant from other servers. Now that i have countered your main talking points, I would like to have a nice discussion about evasion below. P.S. Might add some of my frustrated logs with crep in the distant future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 How did you ever get past Koga in G/S/C if you're complaining about evasion. It's a part of the game. Either learn to deal with it, or don't play at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamina Posted November 1, 2012 Author Share Posted November 1, 2012 my starter was typhlosion so i was usually able to one shot all of his pokemon. Also i do understand that hax is part of the game but is not -what most people would agree- enjoyable at all. all i am trying to do is reduce the amount of hax in this server to make laddering more enjoyable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanco Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Yeah, this is kind of a shaky topic, it seems. As it stands, there's no way evasion clause is going to be implemented on the ladder, mainly because no such clause exists, but for other reasons as well. So...the meta is not going to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mashew Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 My main question is how would we be able to do this since Pokemon Online v2 doesn't have an evasion clause? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 To be honest, competitive play is about the joy you get after winning. Hence the competition. To want to make it more "enjoyable" by removing a piece of it takes away from the win, and the experience as a whole. I'd rather know I won against a +6 evasion sand veil Gligar, then sweeping a team because every attack hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil' Baby Rupe Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 This is what evasion does to people. :[ Battle between embrace the hax! and crep started! Tier: OverUsed Mode: Singles Variation: +50, -30 Rule: Rated Rule: Sleep Clause Rule: Freeze Clause Rule: Species Clause embrace the hax! sent out Ninjask! crep sent out Zapdos! The foe's Zapdos is exerting its Pressure! [AO]Kamina is watching the battle. 「AS」Leader Apollo is watching the battle. 「AS」Leader Apollo: hmm Start of turn 1 Ninjask used Substitute! Ninjask made a substitute! The foe's Zapdos used Agility! The foe's Zapdos's Speed sharply rose! Ninjask's Speed Boost increases its speed! Ninjask's Speed rose! Start of turn 2 Ninjask used Toxic! The attack of Ninjask missed! The foe's Zapdos used Roar! Smeargle was dragged out! Smeargle's Moody sharply raises its Evasion! Smeargle's Moody lowers its Sp. Def.! Start of turn 3 The foe's Zapdos used Baton Pass! crep called Zapdos back! crep sent out Espeon! Smeargle used Spore! Smeargle's Spore was bounced back by Magic Mirror! Smeargle fell asleep! Smeargle's Moody sharply raises its Attack! Smeargle's Moody lowers its Defense! [AO]Kamina: bp vs bp Start of turn 4 embrace the hax! called Smeargle back! embrace the hax! sent out Drifblim! The foe's Espeon used Baton Pass! crep called Espeon back! crep sent out Drifblim! Start of turn 5 The foe's Drifblim used Substitute! The foe's Drifblim made a substitute! Drifblim used Minimize! Drifblim's Evasion sharply rose! The foe's Drifblim restored a little HP using its Leftovers! Start of turn 6 The foe's Drifblim used Minimize! The foe's Drifblim's Evasion sharply rose! Drifblim used Minimize! Drifblim's Evasion sharply rose! The foe's Drifblim restored a little HP using its Leftovers! Start of turn 7 The foe's Drifblim used Minimize! The foe's Drifblim's Evasion sharply rose! Drifblim used Minimize! Drifblim's Evasion sharply rose! The foe's Drifblim restored a little HP using its Leftovers! Start of turn 8 The foe's Drifblim used Minimize! The foe's Drifblim's Evasion sharply rose! Drifblim used Substitute! Drifblim made a substitute! The foe's Drifblim restored a little HP using its Leftovers! Drifblim restored a little HP using its Leftovers! Start of turn 9 The foe's Drifblim used Baton Pass! crep called Drifblim back! crep sent out Mew! Drifblim used Amnesia! Drifblim's Sp. Def. sharply rose! Drifblim restored a little HP using its Leftovers! Start of turn 10 The foe's Mew used Amnesia! The foe's Mew's Sp. Def. sharply rose! Drifblim used Amnesia! Drifblim's Sp. Def. sharply rose! Drifblim restored a little HP using its Leftovers! Start of turn 11 The foe's Mew used Amnesia! The foe's Mew's Sp. Def. sharply rose! Drifblim used Amnesia! Drifblim's Sp. Def. sharply rose! Drifblim restored a little HP using its Leftovers! Start of turn 12 The foe's Mew used Barrier! The foe's Mew's Defense sharply rose! Drifblim used Baton Pass! embrace the hax! called Drifblim back! embrace the hax! sent out Scizor! 「AS」Leader Apollo: gg Start of turn 13 The foe's Mew used Baton Pass! crep called Mew back! crep sent out Smeargle! Scizor used Iron Defense! Scizor's Defense sharply rose! Start of turn 14 The foe's Smeargle used Ingrain! The foe's Smeargle planted its roots! Scizor used Iron Defense! Scizor's Defense sharply rose! Start of turn 15 The foe's Smeargle used Baton Pass! crep called Smeargle back! crep sent out Zapdos! Scizor used Iron Defense! Scizor's Defense sharply rose! Start of turn 16 Scizor used Baton Pass! embrace the hax! called Scizor back! embrace the hax! sent out Espeon! The foe's Zapdos used Roar! The attack of the foe's Zapdos missed! Start of turn 17 The foe's Zapdos used Agility! The foe's Zapdos's Speed sharply rose! Espeon used Calm Mind! Espeon's Sp. Att. rose! Start of turn 18 The foe's Zapdos used Agility! The foe's Zapdos's Speed sharply rose! Espeon used Calm Mind! Espeon's Sp. Att. rose! Start of turn 19 The foe's Zapdos used Baton Pass! crep called Zapdos back! crep sent out Mew! Espeon used Calm Mind! Espeon's Sp. Att. rose! Start of turn 20 The foe's Mew used Amnesia! The foe's Mew's Sp. Def. sharply rose! Espeon used Calm Mind! Espeon's Sp. Att. rose! Start of turn 21 The foe's Mew used Barrier! The foe's Mew's Defense sharply rose! Espeon used Stored Power! The attack of Espeon missed! Start of turn 22 The foe's Mew used Baton Pass! crep called Mew back! crep sent out Mr. Mime! Espeon used Calm Mind! Espeon's Sp. Att. rose! Start of turn 23 The foe's Mr. Mime used Nasty Plot! The foe's Mr. Mime's Sp. Att. sharply rose! Espeon used Calm Mind! Espeon's Sp. Att. rose! Start of turn 24 The foe's Mr. Mime used Nasty Plot! The foe's Mr. Mime's Sp. Att. sharply rose! Espeon used Baton Pass! embrace the hax! called Espeon back! embrace the hax! sent out Ninjask! Start of turn 25 The foe's Mr. Mime used Baton Pass! crep called Mr. Mime back! crep sent out Drifblim! Ninjask used Toxic! The attack of Ninjask missed! The foe's Drifblim restored a little HP using its Leftovers! Ninjask's Speed Boost increases its speed! Ninjask's Speed rose! Start of turn 26 Ninjask used Protect! Ninjask protected itself! The foe's Drifblim used Clear Smog! Ninjask protected itself! Ninjask's Speed Boost increases its speed! Ninjask's Speed rose! Start of turn 27 The foe's Drifblim used Clear Smog! Ninjask's substitute took the damage! Ninjask used Toxic! The foe's Drifblim's substitute blocked Toxic! Ninjask's Speed Boost increases its speed! Ninjask's Speed rose! Start of turn 28 Ninjask used Protect! Ninjask protected itself! The foe's Drifblim used Clear Smog! Ninjask protected itself! Ninjask's Speed Boost increases its speed! Ninjask's Speed rose! Start of turn 29 Ninjask used Toxic! The attack of Ninjask missed! The foe's Drifblim used Clear Smog! Ninjask's substitute took the damage! Ninjask's Speed Boost increases its speed! Ninjask's Speed rose! embrace the hax!: WHY ARE HIS ATTACKS HITTING embrace the hax!: this is embrace the hax!: not supposed to happen embrace the hax!: :[ Start of turn 30 Ninjask used Protect! Ninjask protected itself! The foe's Drifblim used Clear Smog! Ninjask protected itself! Ninjask's Speed Boost increases its speed! Ninjask's Speed rose! Start of turn 31 Ninjask used Toxic! The attack of Ninjask missed! The foe's Drifblim used Clear Smog! A critical hit! Ninjask's substitute faded! Ninjask's Speed Boost increases its speed! Start of turn 32 Ninjask used Substitute! Ninjask made a substitute! The foe's Drifblim used Clear Smog! Ninjask's substitute took the damage! Ninjask's Speed Boost increases its speed! Start of turn 33 Ninjask used Baton Pass! embrace the hax! called Ninjask back! embrace the hax! sent out Espeon! The foe's Drifblim used Clear Smog! Espeon's substitute took the damage! Start of turn 34 Espeon used Baton Pass! embrace the hax! called Espeon back! embrace the hax! sent out Mr. Mime! The foe's Drifblim used Clear Smog! Mr. Mime's substitute faded! Start of turn 35 Mr. Mime used Substitute! Mr. Mime made a substitute! The foe's Drifblim used Clear Smog! Mr. Mime's substitute took the damage! Mr. Mime restored a little HP using its Leftovers! Start of turn 36 Mr. Mime used Thunderbolt! The attack of Mr. Mime missed! The foe's Drifblim used Clear Smog! Mr. Mime's substitute took the damage! Mr. Mime restored a little HP using its Leftovers! Start of turn 37 Mr. Mime used Thunderbolt! It's super effective! The foe's Drifblim's substitute faded! The foe's Drifblim used Baton Pass! crep called Drifblim back! crep sent out Mr. Mime! Mr. Mime restored a little HP using its Leftovers! Start of turn 38 Mr. Mime used Thunderbolt! The attack of Mr. Mime missed! The foe's Mr. Mime used Nasty Plot! The foe's Mr. Mime's Sp. Att. sharply rose! Mr. Mime restored a little HP using its Leftovers! Start of turn 39 Mr. Mime used Thunderbolt! The attack of Mr. Mime missed! The foe's Mr. Mime used Baton Pass! crep called Mr. Mime back! crep sent out Drifblim! Mr. Mime restored a little HP using its Leftovers! Start of turn 40 Mr. Mime used Thunderbolt! It's super effective! The foe's Drifblim lost 35% of its health! 「AS」Leader Apollo: The foe's Drifblim used Substitute! The foe's Drifblim made a substitute! The foe's Drifblim restored a little HP using its Leftovers! The foe's Drifblim absorbed nutrients with its roots! Start of turn 41 Mr. Mime used Thunderbolt! The attack of Mr. Mime missed! The foe's Drifblim used Clear Smog! Mr. Mime's substitute faded! The foe's Drifblim restored a little HP using its Leftovers! The foe's Drifblim absorbed nutrients with its roots! Start of turn 42 Mr. Mime used Substitute! Mr. Mime made a substitute! The foe's Drifblim used Clear Smog! Mr. Mime's substitute took the damage! Mr. Mime restored a little HP using its Leftovers! The foe's Drifblim restored a little HP using its Leftovers! The foe's Drifblim absorbed nutrients with its roots! Start of turn 43 Mr. Mime used Baton Pass! embrace the hax! called Mr. Mime back! embrace the hax! sent out Scizor! The foe's Drifblim used Baton Pass! crep called Drifblim back! crep sent out Zapdos! Start of turn 44 Scizor used Baton Pass! embrace the hax! called Scizor back! embrace the hax! sent out Espeon! The foe's Zapdos used Roar! The attack of the foe's Zapdos missed! Start of turn 45 Espeon used Stored Power! A critical hit! The foe's Zapdos's substitute faded! The foe's Zapdos used Baton Pass! crep called Zapdos back! crep sent out Drifblim! The foe's Drifblim restored a little HP using its Leftovers! The foe's Drifblim absorbed nutrients with its roots! Start of turn 46 Espeon used Stored Power! The foe's Drifblim lost 88% of its health! The foe's Drifblim fainted! crep forfeited against embrace the hax!! The window was disabled due to one of the players closing the battle window. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Why didn't you phaze with Roar and prevent the setup? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil' Baby Rupe Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 (edited) Because by the time I've sent my phazer in he will already be at +2, and then on the turn of the roar/whirlwind/d-tail, etc he will be able to get another one (+4), and from there it's just going to miss practically every time. Edit: Also, following your logic, I will need to carry a phazer on every single one of my teams in order to "beat" evasion, which can severely limit your teambuilding if you want to go for a more offensive route. Edited November 1, 2012 by Rupe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamina Posted November 1, 2012 Author Share Posted November 1, 2012 To be honest, competitive play is about the joy you get after winning. Hence the competition. To want to make it more "enjoyable" by removing a piece of it takes away from the win, and the experience as a whole. I'd rather know I won against a +6 evasion sand veil Gligar, then sweeping a team because every attack hit. You seem to be turning a blind eye to the people that lose from such strategies. Tell me candidly if you would really prefer to lose to someone because you kept missing their pokemon or to someone else who beat you without any hax. Also there is not skill at all if you keep spamming minimize or double team and the opponent is unable to hit the pokemon or more importantly to phaze it. There are really only two moves which counter this and that is haze and parish song and parish song is negated by baton pass teams which usually abuse evasion clause in the first place. Forcing all teams to carry haze or forcing them to win by luck is ludacris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Luck is an element of any game. If they want to increase the odds in their favor, then fine by me. Either I adapt or lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil' Baby Rupe Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 How on earth can you adapt to a +6 evasion? I don't even understand how magical leaf or swift is going to help you out of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noivy Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 I dont care about this issue. I've had a habit of putting moves with 100% Acc, Such as Aura Sphere, Aerial Ace, Thunder in Rain etc. The again, a lot of people dont care about those moves so lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamina Posted November 1, 2012 Author Share Posted November 1, 2012 I dont care about this issue. I've had a habit of putting moves with 100% Acc, Such as Aura Sphere, Aerial Ace, Thunder in Rain etc. The again, a lot of people dont care about those moves so lol. Aura sphere is learned only by lucario and togakiss and aerial ace base power is laughable. Thunder and Hurricane in the rain and Blizzard in the snow can also counter evasion but why must they be the only options to counter it. also in lower leagues where there is no aurasphere or perma rain, how to you expect to counter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noivy Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Lucario and Togekiss eh...? ... Wrong. One other Pokemon gets it that isnt uber. I think. Could be more, but there is most certainly one more. Check that, make it two. Want a hint? One is a Fighting type, and one is on my favorite sun team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanco Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 (edited) How on earth can you adapt to a +6 evasion? I don't even understand how magical leaf or swift is going to help you out of that. The best thing to do is not let it happen in the first place. Adapt and conquer. It's the same guy every time, right? I learned that Weavile and Scrafty counter every Minimize user going save Muk and Qwilfish, who never show up in OU anyway save Monotype teams. In the spoiler below is the list of Pokemon that are capable of using Minimize: Clefairy Clefable Grimer Muk Chansey (Whoever puts Minimize on Chansey...is an ass.) Blissey Staryu Starmie Qwilfish Drifloon Drifblim (usual perpretrator) Litwick Lampent Chandelure NOTE: On a side note, Weavile counters that guy's entire team. Edited November 1, 2012 by rc52 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanco Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 (edited) Aura sphere is learned only by lucario and togakiss Mew, Mienshao, and Raikou can also learn Aura Sphere, with special attack stats of 100, 95, and 115 respectively. Raikou, though, can't have both it and Volt Absorb. Edited November 1, 2012 by rc52 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamina Posted November 1, 2012 Author Share Posted November 1, 2012 Mianshoo is a physical attacker and raikou almost always carries volt absorb. But really that is all beside the point. What I am tring to get across is that evasion has little to no counters and abusing it takes no skill. I have told this many times already but most teams that abuse evasion also utilize baton pass and unless you have haze or rain with thunder/hurricane you will have to rely on luck to counter or other low base perfect accuracy moves which would never benefit you team unless you played against someone who abuses evasion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 If it takes no skill, then it should take relatively low skill to beat it. It's like the stall battles of Gen II. Yes it didn't take skills to do it, but it didn't take much skill to beat it. Once you figure out how to deal with evasion, it will never be a problem again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eternal Edge Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 What are moves that always hit? What are moves that negate stat changes? What are abilities that ignore stat changes? Oh wait...this isn't jeopardy.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyouka Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 All I'm getting from most of this is "waaaaah something is stopping me from winning. QQ sadfaic" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swimming95 Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Same, also I run aerial ace >.> Either way, evasion is a gimmick... it takes luck to use and in the long run, is not as viable of a strategy as you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mczipo Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Edge if this was jeopardy it would go, What is aura sphere? A move that never misses, something along those lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Haze, Haze, and more Haze! Seriously, with all the setting-up going on currently, I'm surprised so few people run Haze. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fush Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Sorry Kamina, but: 1: As said before, there's no evasion clause on the current PO. 2: Complaining about evasion being to do with luck is basically bashing on crits, added effects (e.g bite's flinch), the list goes on. Plus, evasion, being an "epitome" of luck, bakafires on itself because if YOU use it, there's a chance you're gonna blow it too. The person setting up evasion might be the one in anger over "luck" in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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