Autumn 2012 Tier Discussion

[Amethyst]

So from that other topic I've gotten a list of things we're going to look at shifting this season. This topic will be used for discussing only those things. If something was dis-included from the other topic it's probably for one of these reasons:

--There's a large amount of controversy around it

--It would dramatically alter the metagame

--It was voted on for the opposite movement in our previous tier revision

--There isn't currently evidence to support its practicality

I'm not saying that some of those things can't be looked at, but now is not the time, being that we're already behind schedule, and trying to do this quickly (totally my fault, but let's just go with it. >>)

This topic will be open for a few days and then we'll go to voting

Listed are the Pokemon, their suggested movement, and the arguments for them.

Zapdos OU->BL

Outclassed by Thundurus in OU

Machamp OU->BL

Outclassed by Conkeldurr in OU. Although it is still a potent attacker, it no longer sees much use. Note that our BL is about equivalent to the 4th Gen OU. It can also counter the currently BL Blissey

Tornadus-T UU->OU

Strong defenses, good move pool, Regenerator, makes for a potent offensive stall, especially in such a low tier.

Rotom-H UU->BL

In Sun, it's extremely potent (note Vulpix is allowed as low as LU, so Sun is available in UU) with the boosted STAB Overheat being able to KO nearly anything.

Tornadus-I UU->BL

High stats, decent move pool- able to run over most of the tiers competition unchecked currently.

Sawk LU->UU

Strong Attack/STAB + Sturdy nearly guarantees it getting a KO in every battle in LU.

Mienshao OU-> BL

Mienshao has fallen off in popularity since the early OU. It isn't bulky enough to really abuse Regenerator. There are better leads, and the free health to give to Life Orb doesn't make that much of a difference.

Dusclops UU-> BL

Eviolite makes it a very potent tank with access to Pain Split, Will-O-Wisp and other good stalling moves. Its defenses can peak at over 500 making it very difficult for lower tier pokemon to KO

Sableye BL->OU

Prankster Will-O-Wisp/Recover/other strong utility moves make this a nightmare to face in BL.

Amoongus UU->BL

Regenerator + a ton of HP + Clear Smog to counter set up + Spore make this a highly utile, bulky stalling Pokemon, able to counter a deceptive number of threats.

Exploud LU->NU

Out classed by other Pokemon in LU. Mediocre stats give it few advantages.

Simisear LU->NU

Similarly outclassed by other LU Pokemon- very little going for it.

Haunter NU->LU

High Speed/Sp.A make it a deadly threat in NU. It has interesting utility combos as well (Sub/Disbale, for instance)

Rotom-F UU->LU

Weak to rocks and with a poor typing the Ice Rotom has little presence in UU.

Rotom-S UU->LU

Weak to rocks and with little strength behind it, Flying Rotom also has little presence in UU.

Blissey BL->OU

Although outclassed by Chansey, it still serves as a stronger special wall and actually has the Sp.A to cause damage outside of Seismic Toss/Toxic

Cobalion UU->BL

Strong typing and STAB but plays a somewhat different role than Lucario. It's difficult for UU Pokemon to KO it effectively.

[aeirow]

I'd actually reject moving Zapdos to BL. While most Thunderous' use a Choice scarf Thunder, Zapdos can do the same thing with Lightning Rod and still have access to Heat Wave, HP Ice, and Volt Switch as well. I wouldn't count him out of OU just yet.

Edit 1: With a speed boosting nature, Zapdos can reach a top speed of 490, which is faster than anything without a Scarf and no Speed Boosts. After one Lightning Rod, without a Sp.Atk boosting nature, his Sp. Atk reaches 523. Really just phenomenal to use on any team, bar Sand. He could run a pseudo STAB Heat Wave in Sun as well as STAB Volt Switch.

Edit 2: On the other side of things with a Boosted Special Attack and unboosted Speed, Zapdos, with the +1 boost from Lightning Rod gets his Sp. Atk to 574 with 447 Speed. So both unboosted by neutral natures, Zapdos' has, at lowest, if you're using this, 349 Sp. Atk and 298 Speed. These are also just offensive capabilities. We all know and love the sub roost Zapdos. Even outside of Rain, he can produce his own stall rain, has access to Roost, Substitute, Thunder Wave, Tailwind, Roar, Agility, Baton Pass, Light Screen, Protect, Rest, and Sleep Talk. Phasing abilities and set-up abilities may be outclassed by specific pokemon, but he's still very capable in OU.

[Wild Monkey]

Sounds good!

[Shanco]

I would disagree, Aeirow. Thundurus has access to Prankster + Volt Absorb. No matter how you use Zapdos, Unless we're talking about spamming Heat Wave, Thundurus can do it better. It's got Nasty Plot, too, so...yeah.

But I brought up the things about Sawk and Cobalion and I stand behind them. Sawk gets Sturdy + STAB Close Combat. Truly unique. As far as I understand, the only non-Rock, non-Steel pokemon with the ability. And as for Cobalion really anything is possible, going beyond the cliché Swords Dance set. Being unpredictable is a needed commodity in BL, since few Pokemon in the tier are capable of running decent sets outside of what they're known to do.

[aeirow]

I would disagree, Aeirow. Thundurus has access to Prankster + Volt Absorb. No matter how you use Zapdos, Unless we're talking about spamming Heat Wave, Thundurus can do it better. It's got Nasty Plot, too, so...yeah.

Thunderus can do it better. I have no doubt about it. I just don't see the reasoning that Zapdos is being moved down. Just because it is outclassed by one pokemon in OU, doesn't mean it doesn't have other uses in OU. In my personal opinion, Zapdos, if he is moved down to BL, is going to wreck that tier. Plus, he gets Defiant and Prankster, so he's going to eat a Thunder with neutral damage. That's gonna KO him and nothings gonna stop it. I'm not arguing for Zapdos to take Thunderus' spot, it's just Zapdos has way more than one set that Thunderus can't compete with. Thunderus can't do Zapdos' defensive sets. Thunderus can't eat Electric type attacks with no worries. And Thunderus sure as hell can't really do much outside of Rain. He's a ridiculous threat in rain, but he's mediocre at best outside of it.

Just did a few tests, and Thunderus takes, on average, around 76% damage from a STAB Ice Shard from Weavile, while Zapdos takes an average of about 64% from the same Weavile. I also tested a Fake Out to Ice Shard used by Weavile on the both of them. Both use the same IV distribution of 252 Speed and 252 Sp. Atk. Weavile delt about 26% damage using Fake Out and KO'd Thunderus with the following Ice Shard. But against Zapdos, Weavile delt 20% Damage from Fake Out and only 60% damage from Ice Shard. Zapdos counter attacked with an unboosted Thunder and obviously KO'd Weavile.

[Swimming95]

I agree with Aierow. Zapdos's versatility is what allows it to still shine in OU. It can run scarf, defensive, specially defensive or offensive and even subroost. Its movepool is huge and this is what makes it an OU threat.

[slant]

Zapdos should stay in OU. Thundurus-T is extremely offensive, while I see Zapdos used more in a support role. It can toxic, roar, substitute, roost, for stalling. A strong thunder backed by possibly a lightningrod boost is just icing on the cake. In my opinion these two pokemon occupy completely different niches.

[Ringabel]

Queen of bee pokemon still in NeverUsed~. Dang it!

[Lobos]

Seems legit...

I'm still not too sure on the moving Meinshao from OU to BL thing. Meinshao can still run the whole Life Orb+ Regeneration thing, but it really makes a great check to sand teams. With decent speed and attack stat it can run a Choice Band or Scarf effectively. EX: Choice Scarf+ High Jump Kick(STAB)+ Reckless= Bye bye To Tyranitar, most common Steel Types, and anything else that doesn't resist it(Almost at least)

[Amethyst]

@ Lobos, very true. It does still have the power to function well in OU, as do many lower-tiered things. The real question is, however, if it's too strong for BL, where sand isn't even half the issue?

[Kamina]

how about ditto in NU. it keeps cheesy strategies that raise evasiveness and moody in check and it can only transform into Pokemon in that specific tier. DITTO FOR NU!

Edited September 24, 2012 by Kamina

[The Fush]

...just putting this out there, but put Rotom-S in NU. It has a horrible movepool, has some rather deadly weaknesses... and has levitate DESPITE BEING FLYING TYPE.

Gosh I don't know what they were thinking when they made it, but Mr. Freezer Rotm (who is a whole lot more COOL (seewhatIdidthere)), can do more than the fanguy does.

[Amethyst]

how about ditto in NU. it keeps cheesy strategies that raise evasiveness and moody in check and it can only transform into Pokemon in that specific tier. DITTO FOR NU!

We went over this last time and it was decided/voted against. And like I said, keep discussion here to whats on that list. :X

[Kiozo]

Soumlike, do I have to reiterate my issues that I saw based on the last thread or what ._.

This is moving too fast. You're asking for multiple changes to multiple tiers in the metagame, with a heavy emphasis on only having small amounts of support behind the actual move itself. I don't know what your definition of "behind" might be, but a true metagame is always moving and rotating to change depending on what is currently happening. Of course, I don't expect people to know the entire metagame, but, whenever you move a pokemon to a different tier, you change things, and those changes will reveal themselves in new threats, new pokemon being questioned, etc. You might not need to move something that was questioned because something else was moved, or you might change something because something else was moved. It's all too variable dependent.

If something was dis-included from the other topic it's probably for one of these reasons:

--It would dramatically alter the metagame

I propose that you do not change the metagame in x amount of days by such a large amount of pokemon, because that most likely will dramatically alter the metagame for those people that are still involved in it.

[Edit because I wasn't finished:] What i do propose is that you try to do a couple of things that more than one person actually would see value in discussing, because I don't think some of the things here are in the same light as some potentially dangerous threats, only that these were brought up due to certain peoples attention to the thread.

[aeirow]

Soumlike, do I have to reiterate my issues that I saw based on the last thread or what ._.

This is moving too fast. You're asking for multiple changes to multiple tiers in the metagame, with a heavy emphasis on only having small amounts of support behind the actual move itself. I don't know what your definition of "behind" might be, but a true metagame is always moving and rotating to change depending on what is currently happening. Of course, I don't expect people to know the entire metagame, but, whenever you move a pokemon to a different tier, you change things, and those changes will reveal themselves in new threats, new pokemon being questioned, etc. You might not need to move something that was questioned because something else was moved, or you might change something because something else was moved. It's all too variable dependent.

I propose that you do not change the metagame in x amount of days by such a large amount of pokemon, because that most likely will dramatically alter the metagame for those people that are still involved in it.

[Edit because I wasn't finished:] What i do propose is that you try to do a couple of things that more than one person actually would see value in discussing, because I don't think some of the things here are in the same light as some potentially dangerous threats, only that these were brought up due to certain peoples attention to the thread.

I don't see a problem with the way things are moving. People either get the ideas completely shut down, or they are backed by a majority of people. The metagame here doesn't move much because we've basically solved the problem of things being overpowered. Once pokemon come out, their stats do not change. Most of them have usable movesets, which do not change. Of course, you can try new things out, if they work, cool. Most of the time, a small tweak to a pokemon's moveset or an item is not going to change the entire metagame. Since new pokemon are not being released every month, the metagame does not move or rotate. It only changes when a new set of pokemon come out and the only new pokemon that came out with B/W2 were the alternate forms for the Kami Trio, Keldo, and Kyurem. Therefore, All we’re really doing is balancing what we did last year and just tweaking it and making it flow better. I don’t think discussing moving 17 pokemon to different tiers is going to be a huge change to the metagame. The pokemon that are chosen right now couldn’t dramatically alter any of the tiers because there is such a vast amount of pokemon in every tier to hold checks and balances for. If someone sees a problem with something that was or wasn’t announced to be changed, they will speak up. If they don’t, too bad for them, they’ve had plenty of opportunity to see this and voice their opinion.

[Duster]

Great job Ame, I agree with all of these

[Dark Desire]

Kay, so Mienshao should stay OU due to the fact of its access to reckless and HJK, providing it with a band OHKO's everything not resistant to fighting moves. Also, Zapdos should defintially stay OU, i agree with slant that it's more diverse with it being able to subroost making it more bulky and it also having the capitabilies of being offensive due to lightningrod. But i agree with everything else which is changing~

[Kiozo]

I think I have to cut the post up so I can respond. Responses in red.

I don't see a problem with the way things are moving. People either get the ideas completely shut down, or they are backed by a majority of people.

Nitpicking, I know, but reactions aren't that clear cut 100% of the time. In the last thread, very few changes were even commented on, which I stated in the last thread as well.

The metagame here doesn't move much because we've basically solved the problem of things being overpowered. Once pokemon come out, their stats do not change. Most of them have usable movesets, which do not change. Of course, you can try new things out, if they work, cool. Most of the time, a small tweak to a pokemon's moveset or an item is not going to change the entire metagame.

A couple of points that I'll address together. Firstly, I hear people complain all the damn time about things being overpowered, so I know that not everyone agrees with you and that even some that might are potentially being contradictory. Second, I never said that the meta rotates based on stat changes. But, however, I DID point out that usable movesets do change and will alter the meta, to varying degrees.

Take Gliscor: when the meta was new, everyone was freaking out about how much of a "troll stall" Gliscor was, and how it was the perfect compliment to a lot of teams because it "stops everything in it's path", in the meta at the time. All of a sudden, when a few smart people thought about it, they ran moves like HP Ice on things that would otherwise never run it, like, Mienshao, and the way Gliscor was conceived was completely different. Why? Because a small and previously seemingly inferior moveset change, one that any Pokemon can do, was actually proving to beat out a staller that otherwise was claimed to stop everything in it's path. [Keep in mind that obvious counters to a Gliscor are obvious, but I'm basing this off of what people say about Gliscor when they say "everything", as of early B/W meta.]

Since new pokemon are not being released every month, the metagame does not move or rotate. It only changes when a new set of pokemon come out and the only new pokemon that came out with B/W2 were the alternate forms for the Kami Trio, Keldo, and Kyurem. Therefore, All we’re really doing is balancing what we did last year and just tweaking it and making it flow better.

To counterpoint: take the Rain and Sand teams [i'd include other weathers, but I'm not going to get too redundant here; just using the most notable]. Originally, they were found to be an end all to teams that could "only be beaten if the other team had a weather core as well". People often were not planning on how to beat said teams without using the weather, and found countering them intrinsically difficult. The metagame was centered around weather; and through it, people started having to rely on weather to deal with it, or find out solutions. When people did buckle down to find them, certain Pokemon saw a great use together on teams that didn't rely on weather as a strategy; most noticeable for me, the stall combination of Gliscor and Jellicent. This common method of walling brought on what I stated previously.

During both of these points, the metagame actually changed quite a lot. When people find that one method is too good, they find something to beat it. When people find something wasn't as good as it used to be, they scrap it for something else. This is the change that I mean.

I don’t think discussing moving 17 pokemon to different tiers is going to be a huge change to the metagame. The pokemon that are chosen right now couldn’t dramatically alter any of the tiers because there is such a vast amount of pokemon in every tier to hold checks and balances for. If someone sees a problem with something that was or wasn’t announced to be changed, they will speak up. If they don’t, too bad for them, they’ve had plenty of opportunity to see this and voice their opinion.

This holds two issues I have. First, when you say something is "overpowered", usually, everyone acknowledges that there are indeed counters to said Pokemon; but it's not enough to make the difference. Of course when you look at a tier of 30 Pokemon or more, something is going to provide a check at the very least. But that still doesn't mean that they are appropriated for that tier.

The other issue is that you said "if someone doesn't speak up, too bad", which is more of a personal thing, than overall discussion based. To me, it's not 'too bad' if something should be brought up that isn't, it's a loss for everyone involved; because as someone who cares about the intrinsic value of our community, I wish for this to be the best place it can be, and I'm not satisfied with saying "Sucks to be you" when someone has an issue, just because they don't find the same timing you do. I find that wrong.

[Amethyst]

Going ahead and closing this, opening the voting shortly.

@ Kio, I think, since we're talking about a total overhaul of how we even handle tiers, this is probably something we as staff should go over first. Then we can start making more appropriate changes for next time. You have very valid points, and it's my fault that they aren't being adequately addressed, but rather than bringing things to a screeching halt presently, I don't think it's going to be catastrophic if we finish before we revisit how we're handling them as a whole. Talk to me on the server about it, or maybe just open a topic in staff.