Reborn Tiers and Metagame

[Neo]

If weather is a prominent as you say, then why wouldn't an experienced battler just switch in their own weather and put a cap on Excadrill? Secondly, Excadrill may be fast, but any fighting type with priority (or something with aqua jet) is going to completely screw Drill over. More often than not they 2HKO him. (Even though anyone with half a brain would switch out)

As for things like Kingdra, you're forgetting something. Kingdra has more or less always been good and Swift Swim just gave him a little boost. The only really useless pokemon that becomes a monster with weather that I can think of is Quilfish. His attack matches that of Kingdra, and with Swift Swim he's able to speed-tie if I'm correct. Otherwise, I'd have to say that weather just takes already usable pokemon, and makes them even more usable.

(Also, not ever sand team has those ;; Look at mine)

[Noivy]

When it comes to weather teams, you have to adjust your team so that it can handle multiple weathers. Good Weather users do this too. (I can see some of you snickering about the prospect of "Good Weather users") For example, you have a team that is very vulnerable to rain. Take my current League team for example. 2/3's of is weak to water. Thats going to fuck me over, right? Maybe. There are some good anti weather leads. Like the following. Which I save for rain teams.

Here.

GW Typ E (Chandelure) (M) @ Grass Gem

Trait: Shadow Tag

EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd

Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)

- Shadow Ball

- Flamethrower

- Energy Ball

- Clear Smog

Unless the Politoed is scarfed, it is not ever going to out speed this unless the GW Type E has a modest nature, In which case Politoed only out speeds this by an honest case of 2. But then again, I dont see scarfed Toads. So not really worried. Lock in the kill, and completely destroy it.

So what I have here is a non-weather dependant counter to a weather.

And in my normal OU team (Which is ANOTHER sun team) I have this.

M24 Chaffee (Raikou) @ Life Orb/Choice Scarf

Trait: Pressure

EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd

Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)

- Thunder

- Aura Sphere

- Weather Ball

- Hidden Power [ice]

Thunder for rain teams. Aura Sphere for sand teams. Weather Ball for an unplesant suprise for other Sun teams. Hell. Weather ball wreaks other weathers well too! What I have here is a versitle counter for a whole range of foes. This build is something I always put on a team. It's just that good.

Being a good battler (even modestly) means that you have a basic understanding of how other teams work. You have to memorize what certian combinations lead up to.

[Clouds and Puddles]

Chandelure isn't overpowered. At least, not with Flash Fire as its ability. What distinguishes Chandelure (and sometimes Gothitelle) from the rest of the metagame is not its base 145 special attack, nor is it its offensive typing and powerful movepool. What makes Chandelure so good is its ability, Shadow Tag. With this ability, it's able to trap and kill everything from Skarmory ang Gliscor to Keldeo and Dragonite. The reason that this is overpowered is because it gives your opponent no options...a Chandelure switched in on a Skarmory means that the Skarmory is doomed. As a result, sweepers (that would ordinarily be walled by certain pokemon) can’t be stopped.

For example, what are the most common counters to Excadrill? Skarmory and Gliscor come to mind, as does Breloom, to an extent.

Now let's say that you face an opponent who is using a sand team that features Excadrill. Your internal dialogue will somewhat reflect this:

"Oooh he/she's got an Excadrill, I need to prevent that thing from setting up and sweeping. Good thing I've included Gliscor! Excadrill can't touch Gliscor, not even with a Swords Dance."

*Switches in Gliscor, uses Earthquake as opponent switches into something that resists/checks Gliscor*

"Mission accomplished! Excadrill is nothing more than an empty threat at this point! Whenever it threatens my team, I can just switch in Gliscor"

*Later on in the match...*

"Oh look, another physical attacker. I better switch into my Gliscor to handle it!"

*Opponent switches into Chandelure*

"Chandelure? With a base 145 special attack, I don't want my Gliscor to take ANY hits from that! I'll switch out to a pokemon that can better absorb its hits, in the typical ebb and flow battle style of pokemon. Oh wait, why can't I switch? I've been trapped, haven't I? Well, this sucks..."

*Chandelure uses Hidden Power Ice! Gliscor fainted!*

"Well I guess I'll have to be more cautious about that from now on, I can't get trapped anym-"

*Excadrill sweep*

"..."

Sound familiar? Often, a pokemon on your team that is critical to stopping an opponent’s sweep such as Gliscor to an Excadrill, Amoonguss to a Breloom, or even Skarmory to a Dragonite is nullified because of Chandelure.

Stall and defensive teams cease to function properly because Chandelure can single out, trap, and KO at least a single member, which is incredibly detrimental the team’s synergy. It can single handedly eliminate a wall, a weather starter, a sweeper, and almost anything in between.

Many of you have said that Chandelure is weak to hazards, pursuit users trap it, or that shed shell can be insurance against it. Let’s talk about this.

Hazards

Chandelure takes 25% from Stealth Rock and is hit by spikes and toxic spikes. This may lead many to think that it is “weak” to hazards. But if you think about it, it’s really not, and here’s why. Chandelure is not going to function as a pivot in your team, which means that it’s not going to be switched into often. This is because it lacks the bulkiness and the typing to absorb hits from the metagame. Chandelure’s niche in a team is as a revenge killer and pokemon assassin. Ideally, Chandelure should trap and eliminate a pokemon every time it switches in. Essentially, Chandelure takes substantial damage from hazards, but the damage doesn’t really matter. After four or five switches in, you should have already taken out the opponent’s most threatening pokemon and set yourself up for a simple sweep.

Pursuit Trapping

The only pokemon that I can think of that would use Pursuit in today’s metagame are Scizor, Tyrannitar, and Weaville. And although Scizor and Weaville can only Pursuit trap choiced Chandelure’s that are not locked into a fire move, Tyrannitar sufficiently acts like a wall. However, although encountering a Tyrannitar with a Chandelure almost always foreshadows it’s demise, the only feasible way a Tyrannitar could encounter the Chandelure would be as a revenge kill. This means that Chandelure is trapped only after it has already eliminated at least one of the opponent’s pokemon…which is often enough to guarantee a victory, as demonstrated by the Gliscor/Excadrill example.

Shed Shell

Okay, Shed Shell DOES ensure that your pokemon can encounter Chandelure and leave safely! Now I look forward to you using Shed Shell Politoed, Shed Shell Amoonguss, Shed Shell Gliscor, Shed Shell Dragonite, Shed Shell Keldeo, Shed Shell Skarmory, Shed Shell Forretress, Shed Shell Ferrothorn, Shed Shell Scizor…Do you really need me to keep going? The point is, it’s not feasible to equip Shed Shell on every single pokemon that Chandelure is a threat to (that means almost all of them).

Conclusion

Now do you see? Chandelure itself isn’t unstoppable, it simply makes the team unstoppable…with disregard to even a flawless series of predictions on the Opponent’s part. This is why it should be banished to Ubers, along with Gothitelle (which serves the same function, albeit a weaker alternative).

How will this affect league?

It won’t. At least not significantly. Not everyone uses a Chandelure, and for those who do, just switch its ability to Flash Fire!

P.S Before you post your rebuttals and counterarguments, think of the other Ubers, especially Reshiram, Kyurem-B, Kyurem-W, Darkrai, and Shaymin-S. How would your arguing points apply to these pokemon? What makes them Ubers material?

[Noivy]

Editing here because nothing else to say- non-legendary Ubers are still allowed in the league; GG used Wobbuffet back when it was still uber, as an example

~Ikaru

Shadow Tag will stay where it is in the league. PERIOD.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Listar Iostone

[Clouds and Puddles]

alright, cool. How about OU?

[Skeleton]

I'm laughing at this whole Chandelure discussion. Okaybye. >>

[Cloud]

New topic.

Scrotom + Therian core.

Scizor + Rotom-W + Thundurus-T + Tornadus-T

Availability to double U-Turn and double Volt Switch. Thundurus' Volt Absorb and Scizor/Rotom's typings remove all weaknesses from Tornadus-T. Tornadus-T can hit 375 Speed (even with HP Ice, I have a method of getting it there, if you're curious, just ask) which outspeeds Alakazam and Dugtrio. Thundurus' Modest SpAtk evens with Chandelure at 427. In Rain, Hurricane on Tornadus and Thunder on Thundurus make them unstoppable.

Discuss.

[Bullet]

Stealth Rock seems pretty crippling

[Clouds and Puddles]

i guess it could work with maybe xatu and politoed as the 5th and 6th team members? It would take a HELL of a lot of predicting though. Also, huge Chandelure weakness. But then again, not much isn't weak to it.

[Eternal Edge]

For example, what are the most common counters to Excadrill? Skarmory and Gliscor come to mind, as does Breloom, to an extent.

Now let's say that you face an opponent who is using a sand team that features Excadrill. Your internal dialogue will somewhat reflect this:

"Oooh he/she's got an Excadrill, I need to prevent that thing from setting up and sweeping. Good thing I've included Gliscor! Excadrill can't touch Gliscor, not even with a Swords Dance."

*Switches in Gliscor, uses Earthquake as opponent switches into something that resists/checks Gliscor*

"Mission accomplished! Excadrill is nothing more than an empty threat at this point! Whenever it threatens my team, I can just switch in Gliscor"

*Later on in the match...*

"Oh look, another physical attacker. I better switch into my Gliscor to handle it!"

*Opponent switches into Chandelure*

"Chandelure? With a base 145 special attack, I don't want my Gliscor to take ANY hits from that! I'll switch out to a pokemon that can better absorb its hits, in the typical ebb and flow battle style of pokemon. Oh wait, why can't I switch? I've been trapped, haven't I? Well, this sucks..."

*Chandelure uses Hidden Power Ice! Gliscor fainted!*

"Well I guess I'll have to be more cautious about that from now on, I can't get trapped anym-"

*Excadrill sweep*

"..."

Sound familiar? Often, a pokemon on your team that is critical to stopping an opponent’s sweep such as Gliscor to an Excadrill, Amoonguss to a Breloom, or even Skarmory to a Dragonite is nullified because of Chandelure.

Stall and defensive teams cease to function properly because Chandelure can single out, trap, and KO at least a single member, which is incredibly detrimental the team’s synergy. It can single handedly eliminate a wall, a weather starter, a sweeper, and almost anything in between.

This to me sounds like just a way to give Weather an advantage in the same way that Chandy give advantage to whatever it's facing.

So I need to carry some sort of wall to counteract weather starters? Maybe even two or three considering there are multiple weather types and a wall such as Ferrothorn won't work against Sun like it does against Rain and Sand. I'd have to have 2 pokemon ready to counter their weather rather than 1 doing the job overall, taking up less space on my team?

Hazards

Chandelure takes 25% from Stealth Rock and is hit by spikes and toxic spikes. This may lead many to think that it is “weak” to hazards. But if you think about it, it’s really not, and here’s why. Chandelure is not going to function as a pivot in your team, which means that it’s not going to be switched into often. This is because it lacks the bulkiness and the typing to absorb hits from the metagame. Chandelure’s niche in a team is as a revenge killer and pokemon assassin. Ideally, Chandelure should trap and eliminate a pokemon every time it switches in. Essentially, Chandelure takes substantial damage from hazards, but the damage doesn’t really matter. After four or five switches in, you should have already taken out the opponent’s most threatening pokemon and set yourself up for a simple sweep.

Yes. Hazards are it's bane, wanna know why? Because 'ideally' doesn't work when actually fighting. Recently I've noticed a trend of people carrying switch moves on Pokemon which could force Chandy into a position of being forced into battle and taking a good portion of it's HP with it. Then, what about switching to kill a Hazard setter then I guess? It still requires Chandy to take initial damage of seeing that your opponent carried the Hazard set up (most pokemon I've seen have a set for hazards and a regular offensive/defensive set). The only way to truely avoid this would be switching in a spinner first, which can easily be predicted and countered, or leading with a Magic Bouncer.

Pursuit Trapping

The only pokemon that I can think of that would use Pursuit in today’s metagame are Scizor, Tyrannitar, and Weaville. And although Scizor and Weaville can only Pursuit trap choiced Chandelure’s that are not locked into a fire move, Tyrannitar sufficiently acts like a wall. However, although encountering a Tyrannitar with a Chandelure almost always foreshadows it’s demise, the only feasible way a Tyrannitar could encounter the Chandelure would be as a revenge kill. This means that Chandelure is trapped only after it has already eliminated at least one of the opponent’s pokemon…which is often enough to guarantee a victory, as demonstrated by the Gliscor/Excadrill example.

If Chandy is such a big threat on the metagame, why not have these Pokemon carry a focus sash (I think that's the one) in order to be able to directly counter Chandy? As it is they're pretty weak already to anything that Chandy could do so it wouldn't effect preformance all that much I think.

-----

That's just coutner arguments.

Aside from that, I don't think I'd have a problem from banning Shadow Tag from OU, but it can definantly stay in League because more often than not the elader battles are Double and Triple anyways, so it's more than likely that Chandy will die easily.

[Clouds and Puddles]

So I need to carry some sort of wall to counteract weather starters? Maybe even two or three considering there are multiple weather types and a wall such as Ferrothorn won't work against Sun like it does against Rain and Sand. I'd have to have 2 pokemon ready to counter their weather rather than 1 doing the job overall, taking up less space on my team?

Actually, Chandelure is pretty weak against the two main weathers, Rain and Sand. Tyrannitar is a pretty big no-no for Chandelure, as is Politoed. Politoed with 252 hp and no sp def investment takes only 52% from Chandelure's energy ball. If you really want a hard weather-starter-counter, i would suggest Virizion, or even E-belt Deoxys-S.

Yes. Hazards are it's bane, wanna know why? Because 'ideally' doesn't work when actually fighting. Recently I've noticed a trend of people carrying switch moves on Pokemon which could force Chandy into a position of being forced into battle and taking a good portion of it's HP with it. Then, what about switching to kill a Hazard setter then I guess? It still requires Chandy to take initial damage of seeing that your opponent carried the Hazard set up (most pokemon I've seen have a set for hazards and a regular offensive/defensive set). The only way to truely avoid this would be switching in a spinner first, which can easily be predicted and countered, or leading with a Magic Bouncer.

This is actually very situational. Chandelure takes 25% from stealth rocks, but i've never had to switch in my Chandelure more than 2 times to get it's job done. My #2 and #3 spot on the OU rankings (now #3 and #4) can attest to this. Again, Chandelure only needs one or two switches to fulfill its role in the match.

If Chandy is such a big threat on the metagame, why not have these Pokemon carry a focus sash (I think that's the one) in order to be able to directly counter Chandy? As it is they're pretty weak already to anything that Chandy could do so it wouldn't effect preformance all that much I think.

Cute wynaut . But seriously, focus sashing all of these pokemon is just not feasible, at ALL. To do this, you would have to clear the field of all hazards, which, requires a rapid spinner/magic bouncer and predictions. You actually adressed this point yourself when you were talking about Chandelure:

The only way to truely avoid this would be switching in a spinner first, which can easily be predicted and countered, or leading with a Magic Bouncer

Aside from that, I don't think I'd have a problem from banning Shadow Tag from OU, but it can definantly stay in League because more often than not the elader battles are Double and Triple anyways, so it's more than likely that Chandy will die easily.

Banning shadow tag from OU will increase the variety of gameplay

[Cloud]

New topic.

Scrotom + Therian core.

Scizor + Rotom-W + Thundurus-T + Tornadus-T

Availability to double U-Turn and double Volt Switch. Thundurus' Volt Absorb and Scizor/Rotom's typings remove all weaknesses from Tornadus-T. Tornadus-T can hit 375 Speed (even with HP Ice, I have a method of getting it there, if you're curious, just ask) which outspeeds Alakazam and Dugtrio. Thundurus' Modest SpAtk evens with Chandelure at 427. In Rain, Hurricane on Tornadus and Thunder on Thundurus make them unstoppable.

Discuss.

Stealth Rock seems pretty crippling

Donphan is often used as a lead.

[Clouds and Puddles]

NEW TOPIC:

Throughout all this talk of bans and unbans, we all know what the most broken thing in OU is. Weather. Too often have Politoed, Tyrannitars, and Hippowdons completely wreck teams with their broken and widely abused weather sweepers (kingdra, ludicolo, excadrill, etc) and secondary effects (150% Water moves, 50% fire moves, 1/16 damage per turn, +1 spdef to rock types). Now just imagine all that, ended, with the introduction of just one pokemon into OU. I'm talking about Groudon. He's going to be able to balance the other two weathers by making sun teams feasible again. He can counter a lot of sand abusers and starters, and fares better against politoed and co. than ninetales does. However, don't mistake it for being broken just because it's a legendary. Physical sets are walled by skarmory, gliscor, and gyarados. Mixed sets are walled by latias, latios, dragonite, chansey, and most other bulky pokemon. In addition, it's got a horrendous speed stat that will be taken advantage of by ice, grass, and water pokemon. Scarfed Breloom will walk all over it. And its ability, drought, powers up fire moves by 150%! As Groudon doesn't resist fire type attacks, all specially attacking fire pokemon like Chandelure or Charizard can serve as additional checks.

[Swimming95]

So... no offense, its not that hard to counter weather. This is even without having access to weather of my own. Groudon is both too bulky and too strong physically to be moved down to OU. Gyarados doesn't counter groudon at all. It has access to rock polish which a lot of sets use and is fast enough to use it well considering that base 90 isn't terrible, not good but certainly not bad. You cannot say that water is a good counter to groudon because of sun diminishing its effects in addition to him having the bulk to, in many situations, stay in and sweep against ice and grasses. Also, he isn't going to make sun teams any more feasible than a ninetails would in many ways... One pokemon does not a weather team make.

I don't know the best way to say it but most of the people who gripe about weather teams are unable to teambuild well themselves. Weather is easily counterable if people give good thought and put in effort into their teambuilding. Do not simply write off weather as being op without actually attempting to counter it.

[Noivy]

Pfffffffffffft. I can tell your from hoards of experience that Ninetales is plenty good enough. The big advantage to sun teams: They arnt just restricted to one type of Pokemon. Rain primarily benefits Water Types. Exeptions being Armaldo and some Steel types. Sand benefits Rock Steel and Ground the most. Hail only supports Ice.

Sun on the other hand, can easily support a wider range of types. You might be thinking Im crazy, but it's true. I have ran Sunny Day Dark, Psychic, even a sun Electric team. Want examples? Zapdos gets Heat Wave. Umbreon, Cresselia get Moonlight which recovers a massive 2/3rds of their HP in sun. Houndoom in sunny day effects can wreck havoc on lower tiers. Aggron can pull off a powerful Fire Punch and even Fire Blast in Sun. Manectric gets FUCKING OVERHEAT and FLAMETHROWER. Anything that has a good hitting fire move, Moonlight/Morning Sun, Solar Power, and many other things that I dont care to list, because quite frankly, it's infinate.

Leave Groudon in Ubers.

[Kamina]

Evasion?

Forces people to use rain team to viably counter in OU.

Taunt---------> Can be evaded and/or bped to espeon which almost every evasion team has

Perish song --------> Taunted or baton passed to Mr.Mime

magical leaf/ariel ace -------> never going to help outside evasion and probably wont even break a sub

Aura Sphere------------> Bp to drifblim

Haze ---------> can be taunted and not many viable pokemon in OU which can learn it without effecting their usefulness

Coil------> no OU poke learn it (except serp which is only OU because of contrary)

Hone claw ------> drifblim used clear smog (sadface)

No gaurd ---------> only OU pokemon to learn it is machamp

inb4 run odor sleuth

[Shanco]

Are we still having this argument?
*puts a gun to his head*

[Kamina]

well it was never resolved

[Neo]

Evasion?

Forces people to use rain team to viably counter in OU.

Perish song --------> Taunted or baton passed to Mr.Mime

Aura Sphere------------> Bp to drifblim

Hone claw ------> drifblim used clear smog (sadface)

First: How often do you even see a team built specifically for evasion?

If your answer even involves crep, then you might as well not even type it.

Secondly, every argument you've had has been based around viability in OU, yet you have the audacity to use Drifblim and Mr. Mime as examples.

Come back when you can actually make an argument and can stick to the one you're making.

[Kamina]

I just listed those because people usually say that if you want to counter evasion use the moves above.

As for drifblim and mr mime they are an essential part of bp team as drifblim is the only bper with minimize and mr.mime is the only bper with soundproof

So far the only teams that can make it to the top are rain teams (CB t-tar only for creps team) since they have access to strong perfect accuracy moves and politoed with haze isn't that un viable.

And it doesn't matter how many people abuse evasion the fact that people can means that you always have to be prepared for it weather it be crep or some random person who feels like abusing it.

As for you last statement i would appreciate it if there be no flaming just an honest discussion

[Neo]

The number of people using it is a BIG issue. It obviously isn't over-centralizing the metagame if a grand total for 2 people are using it. As for your second point: You're assuming the only teams that can make it to the top are rain based because the ones at the top are rain. I'm more than certain that if someone were determined to get their sand (or non weather) team to the top, they could.

[The Fush]

I just listed those because people usually say that if you want to counter evasion use the moves above.

As for drifblim and mr mime they are an essential part of bp team as drifblim is the only bper with minimize and mr.mime is the only bper with soundproof

So far the only teams that can make it to the top are rain teams (CB t-tar only for creps team) since they have access to strong perfect accuracy moves and politoed with haze isn't that un viable.

And it doesn't matter how many people abuse evasion the fact that people can means that you always have to be prepared for it weather it be crep or some random person who feels like abusing it.

As for you last statement i would appreciate it if there be no flaming just an honest discussion

Something I've noticed is that evasion seems to be pretty bad if Baton Pass isn't involved.

The fact that evasion teams can be abused at any time doesn't mean much, because Crep is the only person I've seen on PO who uses a team fully dedicated to baton pass. Heck, evasion is just ONE part of his baton pass team. He forfeits if he's unable to set up evasion, proving that his strategy is one of the most luck reliant on PO.

And this is just one person (and his fan).

While I'm at it, many pokemon that aren't in the OU tier can still perform well in it; the reason they aren't in that tier is because of something or some mechanic that is common in that tier. Provided that you play your cards right, quite a lot of things are usable in OU (although some more effective than others).

I'll give an example of a pokemon on my old league team; Absol. This pokemon has a high attack stat coupled with good physical moves. There are many things in OU it can take out, but the reason why it isn't in OU, or even BL, is because of pokemon that either outclass it or counter it.

In this case, evasion seems to need baton pass to work. Doesn't that mean you can formulate a strategy against baton pass and it'll cause evasion to be, generally, less effective? It's like how you get an Espeon on your team to counter Spore and Entry Hazards. I just think the issue of Evasion has been argued about for the longest time, and there needs to be more optimistic views on it.

[Kamina]

The number of people using it is a BIG issue. It obviously isn't over-centralizing the metagame if a grand total for 2 people are using it. As for your second point: You're assuming the only teams that can make it to the top are rain based because the ones at the top are rain. I'm more than certain that if someone were determined to get their sand (or non weather) team to the top, they could.

You lose to crep once you have points in the 1400 that is an automatic -30 points right there. I would argue that because not a lot of people use it makes it much more of a problem to build counters to it because its just unpractical unless you use rain. Of course someone can make it to the top using sand, they would just have to rely on luck every time they faced Evasion.

@Baka you said it yourself the reason why pokemon are not OU is because they are outclassed or are walled by a majority of the pokemon. the only way agaist bp is to taunt but it does not have perfect percent accuracy and can be magic bounced

[The Fush]

@Baka you said it yourself the reason why pokemon are not OU is because they are outclassed or are walled by a majority of the pokemon. the only way agaist bp is to taunt but it does not have perfect percent accuracy and can be magic bounced

There's a reason why prediction and strategy are used in the game; it's not impossible to predict a baton pass, and formulating a strategy against it with what you have is no pressing task either. This is especially evident on crep's team: he usually starts of with boosting evasion, and then baton pass. Using what you have, formulate an idea against it; that's the basics. I know it sounds a bit strange, but if you keep in mind baton pass in battles it's far from impossible.

Then you have pokemon anyway. There are plenty of taunt leads such as Azelf. Here you could:

• Consider getting a taunt lead that is competent but not usually known for having taunt. While it was in LU, I once had a taunt Archeops, and it was highly effective against Valkryia.
• Get a pokemon that commonly has taunt and either jump straight to the taunt or predict the use of Espeon/Xatu and react otherwise.

Keep in mind that Magic Bounce-ish things are the only thing blocking a strategy not involving direct damage against Crep. If Magic Bounce is the sole thing that can stray away taunt and the such, then plan against it! And if it doesn't turn out to be as common as I say, then taunt can be used with, if not perfect, a high chance of success.

While I'm at it on taunt, it goes vice versa. While they can predict you having taunt on your lead because it's common, the same thing applies when knowing they have magic bounce and the such. Also, keep in mind that crep is one person, with only 1 or 2 teams, so the same logic will be used every time, and from then on, the world is your oyster.

Learn from your losses, I guess.

[Noivy]

Click on this and once that is done, click on this.

If PO itself didnt want evasion, they would have not put it in in the first god damned place.

I also like how you're bitching about this because of ONLY one person who uses these tactics. Seriously, you're really making yourself look like a baby.

Also, so what if you lose 30 points on the fucking ladder. There's nothing preventing you from doing it again. It just means you have to get them back. Seriously, your tantrums over this are worse than mine on WoT.