Clouds and Puddles

I'm in, but please change it to no weather

Hey Chemical, and congrats on #1! This is probably my favorite rain team...ever! I like it even more than my own. So far, I can't really see a weakness...which is impressive considering the offensive nature of your team. I actually think that this is the only team that I've lost to when playing competitively, so nice job!

AZUMARILL!

Hey there rupe! I really like Ditto on your team. Not only does it (along with Heatran) provide some insurance against Kingdra, but it also takes the place of any phasing that you might need. Really original team! I hope you have lots of fun with it

Yeah Rupe i think you need to revise your checks list. Also, Neo, is there any reason why Manaphy can "easily deal with Rotom-W and Keldeo"? If you're going to contribute to this argument, please support your statements. Otherwise, your comments are pretty much spam. Swimming: Is Manaphy overpowered in OU? Keep in mind that many of the common counters for rain teams (Rotom-W, Celebi (Most sets do not take +40% from Ice Beam), Keldeo, Ferrothorn, etc) also serve as counters for Manaphy.

@Swimming95 Those are actually very good points (also i was unaware that Manaphy could learn energy ball, but a 252 SPATK Manaphy would only do Damage: 160 - 190 of 323 HP or 49% - 58% to 0 HP 0 SPDEF Keldeo, which is the least bulky of the offensive water types that I listed and outspeeds Manaphy with Secret Sword or Calm Mind, which would do around 50%). Also, I'm not saying that Rain isn't good, i'm just saying that it doesn't outclass any other weathers. To address your concern about the ladder not being representative of the reborn's competitive battlers, I would say that I agree- the top 10 of the ladder is not a great sample of the entirety of reborn's competition. However, every ladderer does possess what the other non-laddering battlers lack, which is experience in dealing with the metagame's threats and weathers. In addition, Shaymin with seed flare is VERY viable. With LO, it 2 hit koes 252 hp 252 spdef sassy Tyrannitar in the sand. But other than that, I would agree with most of your other points. However, although they do clarify some areas that I may have missed, I missed your stance on the topic question. So, what I would like to ask you is this: Is Manaphy overpowered in OU? Keep in mind that many of the common counters for rain teams (Rotom-W, Celebi (Most sets do not take +40% from Ice Beam), Keldeo, Ferrothorn, etc) also serve as counters for Manaphy.

One more misconception I want to clear up: Rain is not the most dominant weather. In fact, it's actually far behind of Sand and is on the same level of Sun in terms of the ladder. Of the top 10 current players on the ladder, there are only two rain (one being myself) and two sun (one being myself) users as opposed to the six sand users.

I think this is an excellent idea, and here's why. Manaphy is part of the (100 in every stat) 600 overall base stat club, which also includes pokemon such as Shaymin, Celebi, Mew, Jirachi, and Victini. Notice a trend here? Manaphy is the only one of these pokemon that is banned from the OU tier. Manaphy is similar to some of these pokemon (Nasty Plot Celebi, Sub+CM Jirachi, and and stat-boosting Mew sets) in its niche in the metagame as a set up sweeper. Manaphy is usually used for its trait, Hydration, and move, Tail Glow. Together, with or without rain support, Manaphy can max out its special attack in just two turns while not fearing any status ailments (in the rain). But surprisingly, even with this, Manaphy is not overpowered. Why Manaphy is not overpowered: Movepool: While Manaphy possesses Tail Glow, its offensive movepool is actually extremely limited. Surf/Scald, Ice Beam, and Hidden Power are its only plausible attacking moves. This means that is countered by many Water-type pokemon such as Rotom-W or Keldeo. Base Stats: Like I briefly mentioned above, Manaphy shares the same stats with quite a few other pokemon, all of which are not banned from OU. Base 100 stats in every category means that Manaphy is moderately bulky, moderately powerful, and moderately fast which together form a moderately ‘good’ pokemon rather than one that is overly so. Effect on the Metagame: - Manaphy is most powerful as a set up sweeper. In fact, it is so much more potent as a set up sweeper than in any other of its other potential roles that its moveset should always be relatively obvious. This makes it easy for experienced battlers to predict and work around it. - Manaphy’s Tail Glow + Hydration combnation, although extremely powerful, is not at all overpowered. In fact, one only needs to look as far as Manaphy’s fellow base 600 siblings to see many other powerful ability and move combinations. For example, Victini has access to a 180 power/95 accuracy, STAB boosted move that will never miss because of its ability, Victory Star (which, under the sun and/or with a choice band, will OHKO even resisted pokemon such as Jellicent, Tentacruel, Vaporeon, etc.). Shaymin has a stab 120 base power/85 accuracy move in Seed Flare that has a 40% chance of SHARPLY lowering the opponent’s special defense, while having arguably the best ability in the game in Natural Cure! - Manaphy is easily checked. Rotom-W, Keldeo, Kingdra, and any other hard-hitting water types are great counters to it. Balance: Some of you may question, “Well rain teams are already powerful enough, why introduce yet another pokemon to it?” Well, the reason Manaphy would not make rain teams even more powerful would be because it has such an awful offensive movepool. Ice Beam and Surf, while powerful special attacks, are already so widespread in the rain game that another yet another pokemon with that combination of moves would be redundant. Kingdra, Ludicolo, and Keldeo are just a few other pokemon that serve the same role as manaphy (set up/late game sweeper) and have the same moveset (surf/hydro pump + ice beam/hp ice). Also, Manaphy shares the same type as Politoed, which would only decrease a rain team’s synergy by providing yet another pokemon that has the strengths and weaknesses of a water type. In addition, Manaphy would actually introduce balance to the weather-metagame by providing rain with a much-needed powerful set up sweeper. Like the balance between fast, hard hitting pokemon in Rain, Sand, and Sun in Kingdra/Swift Swimmers, Excadrill/Sand Rushers, and Venusaur/Chlorophyll Users, Manaphy would be introduced as a set-up pokemon in rain that is parallel to Sand’s Garchomp and Sun’s Blaziken. Conclusion: Moving Manaphy to OU would introduce balance to the metagame rather than take it away because 1) it is not overpowered and 2) it fills a role in rain teams that would make it a competitor to sun+sand teams

NEW TOPIC: Throughout all this talk of bans and unbans, we all know what the most broken thing in OU is. Weather. Too often have Politoed, Tyrannitars, and Hippowdons completely wreck teams with their broken and widely abused weather sweepers (kingdra, ludicolo, excadrill, etc) and secondary effects (150% Water moves, 50% fire moves, 1/16 damage per turn, +1 spdef to rock types). Now just imagine all that, ended, with the introduction of just one pokemon into OU. I'm talking about Groudon. He's going to be able to balance the other two weathers by making sun teams feasible again. He can counter a lot of sand abusers and starters, and fares better against politoed and co. than ninetales does. However, don't mistake it for being broken just because it's a legendary. Physical sets are walled by skarmory, gliscor, and gyarados. Mixed sets are walled by latias, latios, dragonite, chansey, and most other bulky pokemon. In addition, it's got a horrendous speed stat that will be taken advantage of by ice, grass, and water pokemon. Scarfed Breloom will walk all over it. And its ability, drought, powers up fire moves by 150%! As Groudon doesn't resist fire type attacks, all specially attacking fire pokemon like Chandelure or Charizard can serve as additional checks.

@Ikaru: Yes, Kyurem-B/W have a massive base 170 atk/spatk and have lots of defense and hp. However, these stats come with the price of bad typing, no boosting moves, and a weak movepool. For example, Kyurem B is unbanned on Beta at the moment because other than outrage, it lacks powerful STAB moves. It is also weak to stealth rocks, toxic spikes, bullet punch, and mach punch. It also has no moves that can threaten steel types. Because of these things, it is easily countered. On the other hand, Kyurem-W has access to powerful STAB moves such as Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulsea and Blizzard/Ice Beam. In addition to those things, it can counter steel and rock types with Fusion Flare, Earth Power, and Focus Blast. Still, it really has no place in Ubers (along with Kyurem- and is again easily countered by priority moves and faster pokemon (Kingdra, Excadrill, Terrakion, Keldeo, Latios, and Salamence to name a few). Although both pokemon are capable of tearing holes in opposing teams with their great offensive stats, they cannot do so at a level that would place them in Ubers.

What do you guys think of this? Shaymin-S, Manaphy, Kyurem-B, and Kyurem-W to OU.

Kyurem-B and Kyurem-W should be moved down to OU

i wanna do it

Actually, Chandelure is pretty weak against the two main weathers, Rain and Sand. Tyrannitar is a pretty big no-no for Chandelure, as is Politoed. Politoed with 252 hp and no sp def investment takes only 52% from Chandelure's energy ball. If you really want a hard weather-starter-counter, i would suggest Virizion, or even E-belt Deoxys-S. This is actually very situational. Chandelure takes 25% from stealth rocks, but i've never had to switch in my Chandelure more than 2 times to get it's job done. My #2 and #3 spot on the OU rankings (now #3 and #4) can attest to this. Again, Chandelure only needs one or two switches to fulfill its role in the match. Cute wynaut . But seriously, focus sashing all of these pokemon is just not feasible, at ALL. To do this, you would have to clear the field of all hazards, which, requires a rapid spinner/magic bouncer and predictions. You actually adressed this point yourself when you were talking about Chandelure: Banning shadow tag from OU will increase the variety of gameplay

i guess it could work with maybe xatu and politoed as the 5th and 6th team members? It would take a HELL of a lot of predicting though. Also, huge Chandelure weakness. But then again, not much isn't weak to it.

Are you talking about me? I remember there was a span of battles where someone would constantly spam Zalgo characters at me and my opponent. I don't think i've laddered from 1300-1500 in 2 hours before, though, so i don't know. Anyways, there seems to be less Zalgo attacks now . And the way to get to 1600 is to abuse shadow tag chandelure. Seriously guys, it's broken! There's a discussion about its place right now at http://www.pokemonreborn.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2341&st=20

alright, cool. How about OU?

Chandelure isn't overpowered. At least, not with Flash Fire as its ability. What distinguishes Chandelure (and sometimes Gothitelle) from the rest of the metagame is not its base 145 special attack, nor is it its offensive typing and powerful movepool. What makes Chandelure so good is its ability, Shadow Tag. With this ability, it's able to trap and kill everything from Skarmory ang Gliscor to Keldeo and Dragonite. The reason that this is overpowered is because it gives your opponent no options...a Chandelure switched in on a Skarmory means that the Skarmory is doomed. As a result, sweepers (that would ordinarily be walled by certain pokemon) can’t be stopped. For example, what are the most common counters to Excadrill? Skarmory and Gliscor come to mind, as does Breloom, to an extent. Now let's say that you face an opponent who is using a sand team that features Excadrill. Your internal dialogue will somewhat reflect this: "Oooh he/she's got an Excadrill, I need to prevent that thing from setting up and sweeping. Good thing I've included Gliscor! Excadrill can't touch Gliscor, not even with a Swords Dance." *Switches in Gliscor, uses Earthquake as opponent switches into something that resists/checks Gliscor* "Mission accomplished! Excadrill is nothing more than an empty threat at this point! Whenever it threatens my team, I can just switch in Gliscor" *Later on in the match...* "Oh look, another physical attacker. I better switch into my Gliscor to handle it!" *Opponent switches into Chandelure* "Chandelure? With a base 145 special attack, I don't want my Gliscor to take ANY hits from that! I'll switch out to a pokemon that can better absorb its hits, in the typical ebb and flow battle style of pokemon. Oh wait, why can't I switch? I've been trapped, haven't I? Well, this sucks..." *Chandelure uses Hidden Power Ice! Gliscor fainted!* "Well I guess I'll have to be more cautious about that from now on, I can't get trapped anym-" *Excadrill sweep* "..." Sound familiar? Often, a pokemon on your team that is critical to stopping an opponent’s sweep such as Gliscor to an Excadrill, Amoonguss to a Breloom, or even Skarmory to a Dragonite is nullified because of Chandelure. Stall and defensive teams cease to function properly because Chandelure can single out, trap, and KO at least a single member, which is incredibly detrimental the team’s synergy. It can single handedly eliminate a wall, a weather starter, a sweeper, and almost anything in between. Many of you have said that Chandelure is weak to hazards, pursuit users trap it, or that shed shell can be insurance against it. Let’s talk about this. Hazards Chandelure takes 25% from Stealth Rock and is hit by spikes and toxic spikes. This may lead many to think that it is “weak” to hazards. But if you think about it, it’s really not, and here’s why. Chandelure is not going to function as a pivot in your team, which means that it’s not going to be switched into often. This is because it lacks the bulkiness and the typing to absorb hits from the metagame. Chandelure’s niche in a team is as a revenge killer and pokemon assassin. Ideally, Chandelure should trap and eliminate a pokemon every time it switches in. Essentially, Chandelure takes substantial damage from hazards, but the damage doesn’t really matter. After four or five switches in, you should have already taken out the opponent’s most threatening pokemon and set yourself up for a simple sweep. Pursuit Trapping The only pokemon that I can think of that would use Pursuit in today’s metagame are Scizor, Tyrannitar, and Weaville. And although Scizor and Weaville can only Pursuit trap choiced Chandelure’s that are not locked into a fire move, Tyrannitar sufficiently acts like a wall. However, although encountering a Tyrannitar with a Chandelure almost always foreshadows it’s demise, the only feasible way a Tyrannitar could encounter the Chandelure would be as a revenge kill. This means that Chandelure is trapped only after it has already eliminated at least one of the opponent’s pokemon…which is often enough to guarantee a victory, as demonstrated by the Gliscor/Excadrill example. Shed Shell Okay, Shed Shell DOES ensure that your pokemon can encounter Chandelure and leave safely! Now I look forward to you using Shed Shell Politoed, Shed Shell Amoonguss, Shed Shell Gliscor, Shed Shell Dragonite, Shed Shell Keldeo, Shed Shell Skarmory, Shed Shell Forretress, Shed Shell Ferrothorn, Shed Shell Scizor…Do you really need me to keep going? The point is, it’s not feasible to equip Shed Shell on every single pokemon that Chandelure is a threat to (that means almost all of them). Conclusion Now do you see? Chandelure itself isn’t unstoppable, it simply makes the team unstoppable…with disregard to even a flawless series of predictions on the Opponent’s part. This is why it should be banished to Ubers, along with Gothitelle (which serves the same function, albeit a weaker alternative). How will this affect league? It won’t. At least not significantly. Not everyone uses a Chandelure, and for those who do, just switch its ability to Flash Fire! P.S Before you post your rebuttals and counterarguments, think of the other Ubers, especially Reshiram, Kyurem-B, Kyurem-W, Darkrai, and Shaymin-S. How would your arguing points apply to these pokemon? What makes them Ubers material?

Ladder based events? I'm very excited! Have you developed a timetable for when these events will start?