Pokémon Ethics: An Introspective Discussion

[Rot8er_ConeX]

I'm going to be reading this topic from time to time, but probably not contributing much.

My view is mostly what mde said.

On Breeding

I have to admit, I never thought about the ethics of breeding Pokemon (other than the stereotypical "Ditto is a whore" thoughts), and I have as such little to contribute to this facet of the discussion. I will say, however, to the person who mentioned IVs being physical traits of the Pokemon (low Speed IV = being lame, low Defense IV = having brittle bones) and Natures being actual characteristics of the Pokemon's personality (Gentle Gyarados, LOL)...thank you for coming up with a plausible explanation for what was perhaps the biggest hurdle in conceptualizing Pokemon stats.

On Battling

The anime - and some in-game dialogue - heavily implies that Pokemon battles are actually a way for all four parties (the two Trainers and the two Pokemon) to better understand each other. In that manner, they're more akin to a (very flashy, very intense) friendly debate - much like the one that we as a community are having now - than "cock fighting" in the real world.

In this context, it almost makes sense for the Champion of a region to also be the political leader - after all, through their battles with the Gym Leaders and Elite Four, they've come to an understanding on how the entire region thinks, and are therefore the one best suited to lead them - in a crisis, they would be the one best able to delegate their subordinates in a way that suits everyone's strengths to the maximum.

Since this is the case, catching and battling Pokemon is actually beneficial to the Pokemon as well as the human, and even gives an in-universe reason as to why a Trainer Pokemon gives more EXP than a Wild Pokemon that is otherwise identical - the Pokemon gains more understanding because it watches the synergy between its human opponent and its Pokeponet. A Pokemon can refuse to be caught, can refuse to battle, refuse to use a certain move, etc. - they are not slaves. They aren't quite pets, either. They are something entirely unique to the Pokemon universe, which is likely the reason the show never uses the word "pet". If, however, you asked me to pinpoint exactly what they are, I'd have to say that they're "friends". The anime uses the word "partner" quite a lot, as well.

On Dining

Yes, the section above does kinda make for some awkwardness when you start to think about the fact that people eat - since there aren't really any "non-Pokemon" animals, this means that people must be eating Pokemon.

However, I think Shel Silverstein's The Giving Tree actually shows a good refutation to this. The tree was willing to sacrifice much of itself with no physical repayment because the man was its friend.

In the Pokemon universe, Pokemon grow through bonds formed with Trainers. If there are no Trainers - no humans - then Pokemon won't grow. What do humans need to survive? Food.

The Pokemon ecosystem as a whole is probably more than willing to sacrifice a few members of itself so that the ecosystem as a whole can benefit from its connection - its friendship - with humanity.

[Cepheus]

On terms of Pokemon being slaves... I just had a thought regarding the 12th Movie (the Arceus one)

Let me recap the movie for a moment:

Ash and Co. come across ruins of an old city, and an decendant of Damos, the cities founder. Back in ancient times Arceus saved the people and "magical Creatues" from a meteor, and in return they helped him by gathering the plates.

As a token of Gratitude Arceus made the land vertile - allowing the people to found the city. Arceus gave them the Jewel of Life to continue the work even in its abscence.

Ash and Co. are sent back into these ancient times to give Arceus back the Jewel of Life, which it didn't get back because it was betrayed.

(now the important part!)

Back then - there were no Pokeballs! It were ancient times!

The people made the Pokemon wear harnesses to make them obey (with the only exception being Damos' Pichu).

Pokemon were made to work in the kitchen (notably here the Johto Starters), to do ALL the kitchen stuff themselves while being observed by a guard - a HUMAN guard. you know a human wouldn't have as much truble cutting radish as a Chikorita...

Pikachu, Pichu and Pliplup sneak into the kitchen and destroy their harnesses - granting those three freedom!

Later on we see Marcus' (the actual badguy) Heatran also wear an harness and obeying his orders, even when everything is getting destroyed... it is not until Pikachu destroys Heatrans harness that it turns against its master (granted - Heatran let the harness get destroyed)

also Ash explains to Damos what a Pokeball is, while in prison.

-----

So In ancient times - Pokemon were enslaved!

And now we have to think about this:

Pokeballs!

Yes - Pokeballs!

Whose idea was it to create these devices to CAPTURE a magical creature? - It even has a 'failsafe' to make it return into this ball at the masters will!

Why do Pokemons have to be in their Pokeballs while traveling with their master? - Example Pikachu! Pikachu is completely fine hanging around Ash the whole time! Why can't a Trainer have all his/her Pokemon out all the time?

Why do we need Pokeballs, when the Pokemon can travel besides us anyway? Why can't we just befriend them instead of CAPTURE them?

The only logical purpose I see for Pokeballs is for transportation of HUGE/BIG/HEAVY Pokemon - when they are injured and need help at a Pokemon-Center!

Pokemon when CAPTURED in a Pokeball are 'assigned' to that Pokeball and that trainer - so that they cannot be CAPTURED by other trainers, since other Pokeballs will just bounce of them, because they are already 'assigned' to another trainer.

If we wouldn't have any Pokeballs - we wouldn't need these 'anti-theft' measures, because there would be no way anyone could try to CAPTURE our Pokemon-friend with another Pokeball.

And even with those 'anti-theft' measures in play - Pokemon still got stolen.

Look at Team Rocket! They either just take the Pokeballs or put the Pokemon behind a cage where the "Return"-command doesn't reach them!

Pokeballs are just an advanced Slavery-tool! - like those Harnesses in the Ancient times were!

also with those Pokeballs I am, for what ever reason, only able to travel with 6 Pokemon-friends at a time While without Pokeballs I could befriend so many more and roam around with all of them!

[Ironbound]

Good to know that this thread is developing so nicely. It's a fine thing to discuss these things, and I'm glad, as stated, that we are talking about these things in the spirit of a true discussion: civilly.

As for Pokeballs being tools of enslavement- well, one can view them as such, or one can also view them as a device of convenience. It has been shown that a Pokémon can always run away or break its Pokeball, even, if it doesn't want to stay, so I'd rather not think that they are all one huge nexus of slavery.

As for the Arceus movie (tbh one of the worst movies ofball time, in my very frank opinion) it is riddled with so many plot holes and failed logical points that one could fill Snorlax's Belly with them. (It's GOD, lol, how can any of that happen to GOD?)

Anyways, the harness thingies might've been tools of subjugation, yes. But that was then, in a primitive age, when man did not yet himself evolve fully as a society. Compare it to our own history 500 or more years ago, when we enslaved each other! We didn't treat each other as equals, much less partner with them. This can be equated to the Pokémon relation as well: people did enslave them, but that changed over time to the present era.

[Damage]

This is a topic I hope to handle well in the story that I've been working on in the site. One thing that I don't really like is the idea of Pokéballs. Its bad enough forcing every mon to fight but also caging them up making them only come out when you feel. If they gotta listen to your every beck and call at least let them have as much fresh air (or in Reborn's case just air) as they please.

[Ironbound]

Excellent. We have our new topic of discussion, the ethics of Pokeballs.

Before any topic can be initiated, it is necessary to define the premise. What is a Pokeball?

We understand that Pokémon can be converted into an energy/plasma state and encapsulated in a device, be it a Pokeball or a PC. We do not know, having never been told, what happens to the Pokémon inside these devices.

This creates three possible theories:

1. A Pokémon is merely physically reduced in size inside a Pokeball, effectively just sitting in a cage but fully aware of its surroundings. This is shown in a few situations, as the Pokémon are implied to be aware of external stimuli and their trainers' responses. For instance, in Gen5, when both Tornadus and Thundurus need to be brought to the Abundant Shrine to summon Landorus, it is stated that the two are 'trembling in their Pokeballs'.

2. The Pokémon is transformed into data or energy and is insentient inside the device. The 'corrupted Pokeballs' are an example of this. Whether the Pokémon inside is aware of this corruption is questionable, but the Ralts event in Reborn supports that the Pokémon can resist and is therefore aware of the corruption of the device software.

3. The most optimistic theory is the 'Ideal Biome' theory, which supports that Pokémon are converted into energy/data, yes, but still retain a sentient physical form within the Pokeball, which simulates its ideal natural environment in a vast virtual field. So a stored Magnezone would be relaxing comfortably in a world of steel and electric power, which can feed it and support its constituition. Likewise, a stored Gyarados would be in a virtual sea, with simulated environs that sustain it in semi-suspended animation. Call it a combination of the above two premises.

However, Pokémon still get hungry, apparently, and can still suffer from a debilitating condition when stored, so there is still that fact.

Based on this, I'd like to initiate this topic. Fire away!

[TimTim]

I am in favor of 'Ideal Biome' theory, i don't know if you are a Trekkie(Star Trek fan), in the franchise, life comes in many forms, there are several non corporeal sentient species with consciousness, they have emotions, thoughts and basic instincts like any other corporeal beings do, i am inclined to think Pokemon as such when they are in the state of pokeball. Of course Star Trek is just a work of fiction, can't really be seen as a foundation to support this. Anyhow, i am still curious as to what's going on in Pokemon Center, that a few glows on the machine and pokemon are instantly healed? No feeding and drinking involved? How'd you explain the phenomenon? and Pokepuffs etc are merely as supplementary food, aren't even main food?

Edit: I just recalled for a sec there, game canon works differently than anime canon, there are real food for pokemon in anime however

[Ironbound]

We can assume that Pokeballs are inserted into a computer that can restore the data-dorm Pokémon inside to its full state. The 'few glows' you state are a cosmetic indicator of this restoration, which we see embodied in the physcial Pokémon as a healing of its injury/restoration of its power and energy. Since we assume the Law if Conservation of Energy to hold good, Pokémon in their energy/data state can be assumed to be fed and/or otherwise nourished when healed at a Pokémon Centre.

However, this satiation is unconscious and therefore not enjoyabke or experiential. That's why a Pokémon outside of its Pokeball likes to eat things, because the nourishment from Centre healing doesn't satisfy its taste buds. This is also why wild Pokemon eat berries and plants or other Pokémon like any animal, or photosynthesize if they are plant like (see the PMD series.) They can't have this healing done for them normally so they must sustain themselves in nature like any life form.

This raises three new questions:

1. What about healing while the player is sleeping in a bed? Is it assumable that Pokémon all instinctively use Rest or something and heal themselves?

2. What about those Pokémon who aren't exactly organic or who don't possess orifices. Magnezone, Starmie, Porygon-Z, and so on. They don't eat normally, but they are sentient beings that require nourishment. Is Pokeball healing their only good? How do they sustain themselves in the wild?

3. How do Pokémon Heal in the wild? Do they all again instinctively use Rest? Is PP a regenerative concept? Or do Pokémon simply reassimilate over time (again as in the Mystery Dungeon Series), and if so why don't they heal when they are within a Pokeball?

I have my theory, but I'd open this topic also for discussion. The Pokeball ethics topic is still open to anyone with a different opinion, or to any comments in general too.

[Cepheus]

This isn't exactly an answer to your points Viri - because this thought came to while trying to sleep...

I'll be refering to the Anime here.

Pokemon are slaves or prisoners - or at least are viewed as inferior by almost(!!) EVERYONE!

The best example comes in almost every second or third episode - while Ash and Co. are happily sitting at a table, eating delicious food - while all their Pokemon are cast to the side, sitting on the floor, eating their Poke-food (which seems to be always the same brown, squishy/crunchy... well... *Dog-Food*) from bowls on the ground... so essentially you could say they make their Pokemon eat from the ground itself!

Isn't that what we did Prisoners and slaves? - tossed them a bowl of whatever for them to eat from the ground.

Sure there are a few exceptions with Pokepuffs and what not as special 'treats', or they get a small taste of what the tasty human food is like - and sometimes Pikachu or other 'small' Pokemon sit ON the table!

However there is ONE special exception!

ONE Pokemon that is treated as equal - One Pokemon that sits at the Table with it's friends, eating the same food as they do - and even got the most 'tasty, human food' from the Ash and Co.

This one Pokemon is - Team Rockets Meowth!

Meowth will sit with Jesse and James and eat with them, share with them what little they got.

In the few occassion where Ash and Co. and Team Rocket work together - or just Meowth because it was seperated - They(Team R) AND Meowth were always offered that good food!

Never did they cast aside Meowth and said: "Here have some of that Pokefood!"

When Meowth was seperated from Jesse and James, it sometimes would deliberatley sit on the ground with the other Pokemon - of it's own will - to keep them Company - and maybe a bit of distrust of Ash an Co. (who knows)

Also - Meowth has NO POKEBALL!

It is always there... it is a wild one - still it pledged its allegiance with Team Rocket!

Never has someone tried to catch it either.

Why? - Because it can TALK!

It can Talk directly to everyone! - Therefore every human assumes it is on the same level as they are - they respect Meowth, in a way they don't even try to enslave it, because they know it would rebel against them.

Now imagine this:

Meowth leaves Team Rocket for good! acompanies Ash back to Pellet Town and meets with Prof. Oak!

Meowth could help him in so many ways with his research, just because it can talk and translate for him. (which Prof. Oak already wanted Meowth to do for him, when they first met)

Two things could happen:

1. Prof Oak would treat Meowth as an equal - giving it a room to sleep and to be by itself. - just on the premise that it can talk.

2. Prof Oak would want Meowth in a Pokeball to be HIS Pokemon. - How do you think Meowth would react? - I think it would be furious! yelling at him like "Don't you dare throw that thing at me Professor! I am my own! I have a RIGHT to be free! And if you can't respect that..."

Even though Meowth can barely fight, because it used up all its potential to learn the human language, it elevated itself above other Pokemon - only it posesses the ability to actually talk to humans (sure some very strong Psychic type can use telepathy) - but just this one thing - that it can communicate with people - makes it equal to them!

Hell for all we know Meowth could be a Trainer itself! - Give a few Pokeballs and let it catch its own Pokemon - it is intelligent enough to do so.

[Damage]

I think this argument about being able to talk makes a lot of sense. Powerful or not I don't think anyone would have tried to capture Slowking or Lugia (evil organizations not included) because they would be placed in the conversation with the intelligent being about servitude. If the Pokémon likes fighting thats one thing but this is assuming they ALL do which there is absolutely no way they do. Slakoth or Oddish do not have the same lust for battle that a Charizard does. I never thought the Pokéballs made sense as a game mechanic or as something to restrain the Pokémon. Also I think some thought is retained in the Pokéball as Misty's Psyduck and Jesse"s Wobbuffet would come out of their own volition. Comedic or not it wouldn't be able to call itself out (safely) if it didn't have some idea of what was going on. I'm actually hoping with the interest this topic has garnered that Sun and Moon will continue to touch on the Poké-bedience thing.

[Ironbound]

More and more points are being raised, I see. It makes me glad to see the thread used well.

As regards Pokéballs as a tool of enslavement, I already expressed my view that it needn't necessarily be that way, but I concede that that would well be what at least a significant number of people would see the relation as. There are many callous, vile or stupid trainers who don't understand their Pokémon or disregard their comfort, be it by harsh treatment or even by overprotective pampering or what have you.

As for the Pokémon-eating-poke-food, we know that they have a mostly different constituition from ours and as such maybe can't eat most of the things humans can, although maybe cupcakes, the odd sandwich and berry-products like poffins are edible. The fact that there exists a staple diet for them, just like many of us have a staple foodgrain, is not inherently a fact of slavery. In fact, many of the trainers in the anime specifically treat Pokémon as partners and friends, not as a lesser being, at least from what I remember from that thing.

As for why they eat off the ground- most of them are animal-shaped, even if they are more advanced and as sentient as a human. Most of them also don't fit on a small camping folding table, or fit in a dining room, or simply are unable to eat that way. Since most of them also don't have a table, plate, knife and fork in the wild, they don't mind eating from a bowl. The larger, bipedal or humanoid ones usually don't do this, because they can and are indeed given a place at man's side: look at Lucario, Mr.Mime, and anything that has fingers and arms and can sit at a table. They usually do when the situation allows.

Also, those Pokémon that can speak the human language telepathically are still treated the same way by mostl people as far as I can remember. Then again the anime is for kids, and the games are also for kids really, so if we base our judgment off of what people in our world are like, then the average Joe would probably even tell a telepathic Pokémon to go **** itself if they don't simply enslave it for their own gain first. This is mostly based on one's perspective.

Just saying, BTW, that assuming that a slakoth or an oddish doesn't want to battle is again not necessarily true. My Oddish wants to bathe in figurative blood, and my Charizard wants to dress up and perform in Contests. Whom am I to deny their pleasure if they concede to partner with me in a Pokeball and then participate with me in whatever interests them?

The points about Meowth and other talking Pokémon are undeniably interesting to note. What do you think?

Well, this thread has had a good run. In the interests of prudence, this discussion has reached a conclusion. Fresh discussions are always welcomed, but for now this thread can recede. I have no further points to discuss; others are always welcome if they so choose.

The thread is dormant. In future, unless it dies ultimately, more can be posted here.

Edited April 11, 2016 by Viridescent

[Rot8er_ConeX]

Playing devil's advocate here.

You bring up the fact that most small, animal shaped Pokemon cannot use a camping table the way humans can, and that's the reason that they eat from doggie bowls even though they are equals to humans.

If they really were seen as equals, wouldn't society have tried to build something that is similar in function to a camping table, but in such a way that animal-like Pokemon could use it? After all, in the real world, for the longest time left-handedness was seen as a defect, and everything was made to cater to right-handed people - scissors, computer mice, etc. Only recently do we ignore handedness, and now we have left-handed or hand-neutral scissors. Heck, notebooks are still bound on the left in such a manner that makes writing comfortably difficult for lefties (my fourth grade teacher let the lefties in our class write in their notebooks upside-down to solve this very issue).

Or something that's more personal to me: the ADA.

People with wheelchairs aren't going to be able to go up the stairs in front of old buildings. Do we just go "okay, you have to wait outside?" No, we build ramps.

You could make the argument that the smaller Pokemon are like children, and get to eat at the grown-up table when they grow up - i.e., evolve. But if that's the case, does that mean that Dedene is always a kid?

Edited April 10, 2016 by Rot8er_ConeX

[Ironbound]

I have nothing to say there, because I personally agreed with that premise of dog-bowl feeding, and I too was playing the devil's advocate the first time around just to try and find some kind of explanation. It seems we can agree on this as a defect that persists in today's Pokemon society, and is an indicator treating Pokemon as unfairly as lefties or ADA previously were.

So that is indeed a flaw, and a finding of this discussion. Perhaps I should make a list or master-summary of our findings.

But if that's the case, does that mean that Dedenne is always a kid?

I wouldn't know. Ask Michael! Edited April 10, 2016 by Viridescent

[doombotmecha]

I know that the discussion has kind of moved on but there's an interesting note from the Shadow Triad in Gen 5 II: In the scene where Hugh gets his purrloin back, the triad mentions that it won't listen to him and will still obey the commands of the triad until it is released from its pokeball. So, are pokemon just mind-controlled when they get captured by a ball?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

back on topic, what about pokemon that start small and stay small--like our favorite electric rodent's evolution, Raichu. Raichu's as big as it's gonna get and still doesn't have a body type conducive to sitting at a table or eating in an ordinary fashion--or at least, it doesn't do these things any better than pikachu.

In addition, what about pokemon who start big, like scyther? is scyther born as an adult? wild scyther can go their whole lives without ever getting the opportunity to evolve into scizor.

That just gave me an Idea: what if trade-evo pokemon are a lil weirded out by their new forms because they never saw those forms in the wild/never knew another pokemon in that form? Is a trade evo pokemon (TEP from here on out) unable to achieve maturity in the wild? additionally, where the heck do wild the Steelix in iron island and gen IV victory road come from?

Lastly: what kinds of effects on society do legendary-holding trainers have? how could anyone disagree with a ten-year old with Pokemon God on their side?

Edit: sorry Viridescent, didn't mean to edit out what you were responding to. for anyone coming later, I mentioned how the townsfolk in gen 2 were appalled by Rocket taking slowpoketails from the well outside town. I see what he meant, and I guess GF also hadn't settled on regenerator for the slows (mostly because it didn't exist yet)

Edited April 15, 2016 by doombotmecha

[Ironbound]

As for Hugh's Purrloin/Liepard, it may simply be because the Shadow Triad member has basically owned it for years. Loyalty is a thing. Unless released and expelled, it will continue to obey its owner, even if said owner stole it in the first place. It's more likely than mind control, because disobedience and voluntary escape/breakage of the Pokeball exist and have been shown.

And as for the slowpoketails in Gen2 and their remakes, the townsfolk's reaction is justifiable. Even if slowpoke tails regenerate painlessly over time, and even if it is a natural process for slowpokes to lose their tails as a part of their fishing, those specific Slowpokes in that well may be held sacred or otherwise respected by the locals.

Cows are edible, but one does feel outraged if a bunch of random Criminals come into one's village and kill their sacred cattle. This is a similar reaction: Those slowpokes are revered as rain-bringers, and the slowpoke well is respected. Team rocket's actions of taking the slowpoke tails is condemned because they are defiling a respected place, not because of the general act itself.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Viridescent

[Froiky]

I'm not sure what all's been discussed so far but I'd like to point out something about the reaction on whether competitively breeding Pokemon is considered inhumane. Breeding tons of "imperfect" Pokemon has its faults but casual players have their own offenses. I'll list a few:

- leaving a Pokemon in the daycare or using the experience share both seem to be forms of neglect. The trainer may intend their Pokemon to get strong without battling, but I would wager that if they were considered pets (or as partners) it would be painful for the trainer to treat them as such. Can you see your dog (or other pet) wearing a helmet to learn new tricks?

- there is little evidence of what benefit Pokemon get from battling other than experience. It is basically up to trainers and the league challenge that Pokemon are set to battle as much as they do. Granted, Pokemon would likely battle naturally. Given this there is no guarantee that a Pokemon will be captured by a good trainer.

- the 'gotta catch them all' slogan. Don't tell me you have time to care for 700 some creatures of various sizes and behaviors. Even if every Pokemon was evolved (or not if no evo) there would still be around 350 Pokemon to worry about. No one has time to properly care for all of them especially considering the power some hold, such as the legendaries.

- talking about legendaries who thinks kids (or anyone for that matter) should be allowed to catch and wield almighty forces of nature. I'm gonna leave that one there.

Sorry for the long rant pointing out some of the obvious parts of Pokemon. Nonetheless I hope this sparks some conversation.