Let's talk about re-tiering non-Megas...

[Fumble]

As many of you know, Smogon has something called "tiers". With the introduction of Mega Evolutions in gen 6, the tiers have adapted to them. However, something I noticed was that in some cases, Pokemon are tiered differently than their Mega Evolutions (i.e. Mega Gallade in BL and regular Gallade in BL3), whereas others are not (i.e. both Absol and Mega Absol in UU). The problem with the latter is that some Pokemon are not viable in higher tiers without their Mega, but are in lower tiers.

I was just wondering what your opinions on this are. What non-Mega Pokemon would you change the tier of and why?

Personally, one of the many Pokemon I would change is Lopunny. It is completely garbage in OU without its Mega, but in NU or maybe even in RU, with an amazing speed, it can definitely cripple some Pokemon. It gets Thunder Wave, Encore, and Switcheroo at its disposal (which can be combined with Klutz), along with Healing Wish or Heal Bell to be a cleric, and maybe even Agility OR Power-Up Punch with Baton Pass if you feel like doing that type of team. And of course, it would suffer competition from other trickster Pokemon like Prankster Meowstic or Trick Rotom, but at least it'll be used, since it has multiple moves that it could be used.

Also forgive me if I look like I don't know what I'm talking about, I'm not a great competitive player, but I at least understand the gist of how things work.

[Raindrop Valkyrie]

Actually... with that example... Lopunny was almost never used at all. It did have a small niche in it's support movepool and the fact that Klutz allowed it to change Switcheroo into some sort of disable ((whether appling a different Status like Burn or giving a choice item to something etc...))

But it still didn't see a huge amount of use in B and W or D/P/PT. I defintiely agree to some aprt that Basic mons should be separate from their Megas... and hell there already ones that are like this. ((Mega Houndoom is deattached from his regular form as well as Gallade.)) SO, I think they are working on some of them to figure out where they go. A lot of the ones stuck to their Mega though... are done so because their Mega does literally their job but better. ((Mega Manectric.)), there really is no reason to use Reg Manectric becuase it's Mega is basically jsut a better version of it entirely. Yes you could use Mane in a lower tier I suppose, but in game and in competitive without restrictions Mega Mane is always better. I think that is the mentality behind it.

[Fumble]

Actually... with that example... Lopunny was almost never used at all. It did have a small niche in it's support movepool and the fact that Klutz allowed it to change Switcheroo into some sort of disable ((whether appling a different Status like Burn or giving a choice item to something etc...))

But it still didn't see a huge amount of use in B and W or D/P/PT. I defintiely agree to some aprt that Basic mons should be separate from their Megas... and hell there already ones that are like this. ((Mega Houndoom is deattached from his regular form as well as Gallade.)) SO, I think they are working on some of them to figure out where they go. A lot of the ones stuck to their Mega though... are done so because their Mega does literally their job but better. ((Mega Manectric.)), there really is no reason to use Reg Manectric becuase it's Mega is basically jsut a better version of it entirely. Yes you could use Mane in a lower tier I suppose, but in game and in competitive without restrictions Mega Mane is always better. I think that is the mentality behind it.

Yeah, Lopunny would still be pretty outclassed even in NU, but at least it would find a home where people might use it.

I guess I can see that perspective. It wouldn't really make sense to use Manectric in a low tier rather than Mega Manectric in a higher tier (which I still don't like being in OU), unless you honestly only play low tier. But there are some cases which I think that the regular should be split from the Mega, still.

It's good that Smogon is working on separating them, though.

To be honest, I expect most of them going down to NU or maybe even PU, since most of them sucked without their Megas...

[Darvan Korematsu]

Yes I get that sometimes certain Pokemon are way better with their Megas, but I'll delve into some of what makes them good. Most appreciate either the stat boost or the change of ability in some cases. Sometimes this makes the Pokemon Uberly broken, like in the cases of Gengar, Salamence, Kangaskhan, Mawile, Lucario, and Blaziken. (Get it? Because they're in Uber tier).

Maybe not Salamence so much with ability, but everything else above in Ubers is factored into that tier because of their ability, at least partially.

I think the change in ability is really what can make or break a Mega Pokemon for the most part. For instance, if Mega Houndoom had a better ability than Solar Power, which is practically and utterly useless, it might see more play. Houndoom is probably the only real waste of a Mega Ability that I can think of. Most Megas usually have a better ability when compared to their base form.

Some have an amazing stat boost to back it up, and something to support it sometimes. Like in the cases of Lopunny, Medicham, Pinsir, Metagross, and Lucario, the first two can get a free turn with Fake Out, otherwise forcing a Protect, and the latter three can revenge kill with STAB moves, for an equally free turn to give them a much needed Speed boost.

Other Megas are great because of their combo pieces to their movesets. For instance, Kangaskhan, Slowbro, and Sableye. Kangaskhan can go into a Power-up Punch, which with Parental Bond turns it into a Swords Dance immune to Taunt. Slowbro can use Calm Mind, and Slack Off, which when paired with Shell Armor make it a practical wall, and scratching off any hopes of a lucky crit. Sableye, with Prankster and due to the game mechanics, can Mega Evolve AND get priority off of Prankster for that turn with Calm Mind or Will-o-Wisp and in turn screwing over with Magic Bounce.

Strictly speaking, this is what makes Megas more viable than their bases imo.

If I wanted a Mega moved to a different tier, I'd want Lucario back down to OU. A lot has changed since X/Y, and I get that it can have different sets and whatnot, but some of the new Megas of ORAS, particularly in OU, can run circles around both sets like nobody's business. (I speak for Lopunny, Metagross, and Slowbro from what I can think of currently, all of which have a way of walling or creeping around Lucario in some way). Lucario to me nowadays is still great, with those stats and ability, but it's outshined by other Megas imo, and it's ban in X/Y while righteous, was a one-way ticket aboard the HYEP TRAIN.

[AuthorReborn]

A lot of pokemon should certainly be separated from their megas so they can be used in different tiers where their non-mega assets can actually be utilized.

Mawile, Pinsir, and Kanga are all NU when non mega and two of them are Ubers and the other is one of the best Fighting killers in OU.

Charizard would likely be NU (as he was in Gen V) without his megas because while his stats aren't bad, there are other mons who can fill his role better without losing half their health on the switch in.

Non-mega Barack Abomasnow is quite worthless when his mega has every stat besides HP and Speed boosted, which actually serves to make the mega even better with how it can "out slow" most pokemon in Trick Room and always hit a Blizzard thanks to Snow Warning.

Let's be honest on this one: why would anyone use Beedrill in UU without his mega? His mega has Attack and Speed at base 150 and 145 respectively with the lovely Adaptability boost to make U-Turn into something which will deal massive damage. Regular Beedrill has Attack and Speed at 90 and 75 respectively. When other offensive threats have far higher attack/speed, such as Darm at 140/95 and Mienshao at 125/105, there is no reason to use regular Beedrill in UU. It should be in NU at best (as it was in BW).

That's all I have time to write for now.

[Raindrop Valkyrie]

Reg Bee would be bottom of PU if even used in that. Some mons reg forms are jsut.... well like Beedrill. They are suuuuper outclassed by nearly everything lol. What point is there to Beedrill? It has just terrible stats, no boosting moves other than like... Fell Stinger... it just doesn't have anything to warrant it's use.

[AuthorReborn]

Reg Bee would be bottom of PU if even used in that. Some mons reg forms are jsut.... well like Beedrill. They are suuuuper outclassed by nearly everything lol. What point is there to Beedrill? It has just terrible stats, no boosting moves other than like... Fell Stinger... it just doesn't have anything to warrant it's use.

The only conceivable usage of Normal Bee would be a choice band user in FU due to its decrnt speed tier, it could potentially get a sweep going if you band it into Fell Stinger. And that's only if you take out anything which resistd it. As it is so terrible, there is clearly no reason to have regular Beedrill in UU when it couldn't hurt anything in the tier.

[Fumble]

Audino would probably be in PU or maybe in FU, the tier that almost nobody plays. It's outclassed by its Mega in NU, since its job as a wall is done much better as Mega.

As for Absol, I'm unsure of. It might become RU like it was in gen 5, but with the new Fairy type, it might be dropped to NU. Still, I can see it being pretty useful in either tier, since its Attack and Speed are usable, so you can just put Play Rough, Sucker Punch/Knock Off, Swords Dance, Superpower, and/or maybe Fire Blast on it and let it wreak havoc.

[AuthorReborn]

Audino would probably be in PU or maybe in FU, the tier that almost nobody plays. It's outclassed by its Mega in NU, since its job as a wall is done much better as Mega.

As for Absol, I'm unsure of. It might become RU like it was in gen 5, but with the new Fairy type, it might be dropped to NU. Still, I can see it being pretty useful in either tier, since its Attack and Speed are usable, so you can just put Play Rough, Sucker Punch/Knock Off, Swords Dance, Superpower, and/or maybe Fire Blast on it and let it wreak havoc.

For Absol, I'd predict it to be RU when separated from its mega because STAB Knock Off is never a bad thing in the current metagame. Also you can always SD on a switch and then throw in a STAB Sucker Punch to deal respectable damage to most anything.

[Shadow Tack]

Audino would probably be in PU or maybe in FU, the tier that almost nobody plays. It's outclassed by its Mega in NU, since its job as a wall is done much better as Mega.

regular audino would stay in NU because it's a normal type mola.

Edited August 9, 2015 by blasterman4

[MellowSlinky]

I feel like non-Mega Manetric could probably be re-tiered to UU. Seems like a comparable option to Heliolisk in terms of stats and offers slightly different coverage options with Overheat vs Grass Knot/Hyper Voice

[Etesian]

I feel like non-Mega Manetric could probably be re-tiered to UU. Seems like a comparable option to Heliolisk in terms of stats and offers slightly different coverage options with Overheat vs Grass Knot/Hyper Voice

IMO, it should go even lower as Heliolisk outclasses it pretty hard. It has worse Speed and Sp.Atk (barely, but still), no Sp.Def (neither are supposed to be taking hits, but Heliolisk might actually survive a whack or two).

-Both have an ability that gives them an immunity, sure. But there's really 4 Electric types in UU: Galvantula both that outspeeds and is usually Sash so Overheat doesn't even kill; the standard LO Heliolisk outspeeds and has a 50% chance to OHKO with Hyper Voice if rocks aren't up; Mega Ampharos is Mega Ampharos; Mane can't scratch Rotom-Heat, it only inconveniences it if it's Choiced.

Meanwhile, Heliolisk's Dry Skin helps against Blastoise, Empoleon, SD Feraligatr, Milotic, Slowking and Tentacruel, while it completely shuts down Crocune and Vaporeon. And I guess it's neat if you've got a Mega 'pert around.

-When it comes to movepools, Mane only has STABs, Fire moves and Hidden Power. Fire only really helps with Mega Obama, Chesnaught, Doublade, Forretress, Heracross, Roserade, Manectric. Meanwhile, Heliolisk has the choice between 2 STABs, Surf, Grass Knot, Focus Blast and Dark Pulse.

[MellowSlinky]

IMO, it should go even lower as Heliolisk outclasses it pretty hard. It has worse Speed and Sp.Atk (barely, but still), no Sp.Def (neither are supposed to be taking hits, but Heliolisk might actually survive a whack or two).

TBH I've only really looked into OU in any detail, but it also seems like Jolteon would give it competition in RU so it could totally go even lower than UU

Edited September 24, 2015 by MellowSlinky

[Synchronoise]

iirc we're working on seperating the megas from their non-megas, it's just not a priority

Mostly the mons that are seperated are stuff in banlists, ie Gengar in OU vs M-Gar in Ubers, Mawile in NU vs M-Wile in Ubers, Gallade in RU vs M-Gallade in BL, the list goes on

[Chase]

With regards to Heliolisk - Heliolisk was bumped up because of it's arguably better defensive typing and it's ability Dry Skin. Normal provides a solid switch in against Ghost type attacks.

Heliolisk is also immune to Water thanks to Dry Skin.

Stat-wise, it and Jolteon are very similar - with Jolteon winning the Speed category and barely edging out Heliolisk in special attack power.

The reason Heliolisk is outright better is the amount of immunities it has are greater (2>1) - and Heliolisk has better coverage. Offensive Jolteon sets are often forced to run TWO electric type moves.

---

As far as re-tiering non-megas is concerned, there are a couple that -do- seem silly to me - like Manectric and Lopunny who have ridiculously low BSTs and without their megas wouldn't seem much effective at all in OverUsed.

For example, regardless of it's Mega or not, you know what a Mega Manectric/Manectric will want to do competitively. It will try to Volt Switch and/or go a coverage move and it will use it's speed to it's advantage. - and the choice is obvious which is better at that. Normal Mane has no advantages in OU over it's mega in that it's crippled by it's same narrow move-pool.

Lopunny is rendered to a bad Attack stat when not Mega, forcing it into using Klutz to trick things like Assault Vests onto support Pokemon at best in OU. You lose all of Mega Lopunny's offensive pressure and it's defenses are not ideal even WHEN Mega.

I would argue that there are still quite a few Pokemon that are not able to hang around in OU that are wrongfully relegated to the tier thanks to the unprecedented power of their Mega Evolutions.

Another one of those is Charizard - who takes 50% Damage from Stealth Rocks and would have a very narrow niche in OU at best thanks to Solar Power. The Pokemon fell from BL in Gen 3 all the way to NU in Gen 4. Gen 5 didn't raise the stakes much, only providing Charizard Solar Power to make it useable in sun teams in higher tiers.

If the thing isn't Mega evolving. It's not an OU pokemon.

[Deleted User]

I'm going to run through every Mega Evolution capable pokemon and list where I think they belong without their Mega.

Venusaur - RU

Before it's Mega, this things claim to fame was it's Chlorophyll ability. It's no longer as prominent with the weather wars being nerfed. It's typing with the addition of fairies is now much more beneficial.

Charizard - BL3

This thing does have a wide variety in the move pool, it does a lot of things good, but nothing great. The 4x weakness to stealth rocks REALLY hurts it's chances.

Blastoise - RU

This thing is still a pretty solid defensive spinner. It's got decent HP and two solid defenses both over 100. Not to mention water is only weak to grass and electric, two easy types to support with team building. With access to Scald, it could and Rapid Spin, it still can be useful in the ranks of RU if you ask me.

Alakazam - BL

Honestly, I think this thing was a bit too good for UU with it's focus sash, magic guard, speed, and coverage. It might not be the greatest in OU, but I think BL is just right.

Gengar - OU

Very versatile, still used in OU considerably. Great defensive typing, immune to 3 types.

Kangaskhan - NU

This thing has some interesting parts to it. Early Bird + Rest can allow it to wake up after only 1 full turn of being asleep. Run it bulky, throw in a sucker punch for priority and it's got a nice little niche. Good stat distribution, biggest issue is that it is fairly lacking in coverage and easily played around.

Pinsir - NU

I mean... literally this thing is outclassed by Heracross in just about every way, who is now UU. It only gets one useful stab move, X-Scizzor, which is meh.

Gyarados - OU

Very good, very versatile pokemon, can be offensive or defensive. Stall breaker, set up sweeper, you name it.

Aerodactyl - NU

It's got good speed...... I guess. It's fragile and has many type weaknesses. Not much room to set up to sweep and no useful abilities.

Mewtwo - Ubers

Next....

Ampharos - BL3

It can be a bulky pokemon with above average special attack, Electric only has one weakness. But it lacks coverage.

Scizor - OU

I don't think I need to explain this one.

Heracross - BL

I think UU for this thing is kinda underrating it. It's very flexible in it's abilities with great coverage. Not the fastest mon in the world, but it can be a great wall breaker.

Houndoom - RU

Right where it's at, seems like it fits.

Tyranitar - BL

It's been falling lately while Hippowdon has been on the rise. It's not a great defensive typing, and kind of slow. But it still has good attack and natural bulk. As well as good coverage.

Blaziken - Ubers

No... just no.

Gardevoir - RU

This thing doesn't get enough credit if you ask me. It might not like steel types, but you won't find too many in RU. It has a good typing, but it doesn't pack a huge punch and requires a turn or two to set up and be a serious threat in RU. It also has Will-O-Wisp

Mawile - NU

Absolutely pitiful stats, but good moves, good typing and two good abilities to choose from.

Aggron - RU

Dislike the typing, it's defense is still off the charts, and it has good attack, but it's not going to survive much on the special end.

Medicham - RU

Hey.... it's got Pure Power... a couple of priority moves, and not a bad type combo.

Manectric - NU

Nothing really special about it. It's incredibly similar to Zebstrika without beating the 110 speed tier, though it does hit harder in the special side.

Banette - PU

There's nothing much to like about Banette. It's Prankster ability helps it greatly, but otherwise...... I just can't find anything to do with this thing.

Absol - RU

It has good attack, Knock Off/Pursuit/Sucker Punch are always good stab moves and it also had access to Swords Dance and some good coverage, but it's frail and not very fast. Sword's Dance + Sucker Punch are going to be it's claim to fame.

Garchomp - OU

Great mon, nuff said.

Lucario - UU

Great movepool and it's versatile. ESpeed it always nice. Abilities are ok, but this thing can do some damage.

Abomasnow - RU

I'm getting tired of writing things here so I'm just going to give the rankings now.

Beedrill - PU

Pidgeot - PU

Slowbro - OU

Steelix - NU

Sceptile - NU

Swampert - BL2

Sableye - BL

Sharpedo - RU

Camerupt - BL4

Altaria - NU

Glalie - BL4

Salamence - BL

Metagross - BL2

Latios - OU

Latias - OU

Rayquaza - Ubers

Lopunny - NU

Gallade - RU

Audino - PU

Diancie - UU

[Synchronoise]

With regards to Heliolisk - Heliolisk was bumped up because of it's arguably better defensive typing and it's ability Dry Skin. Normal provides a solid switch in against Ghost type attacks.

Heliolisk is also immune to Water thanks to Dry Skin.

Stat-wise, it and Jolteon are very similar - with Jolteon winning the Speed category and barely edging out Heliolisk in special attack power.

The reason Heliolisk is outright better is the amount of immunities it has are greater (2>1) - and Heliolisk has better coverage. Offensive Jolteon sets are often forced to run TWO electric type moves.

Just want to address something, Jolteon isn't forced to run two electric moves. If you really wanted to, you could opt to run T-Bolt/HP Ice/Shadow Ball/Signal Beam and still have a great time. Jolteon typically runs two electric moves because Volt Switch is an amazing utility move to have, and there are times where you want to choose to either grab momentum, or stay in and fire T-Bolts

It's similar to Keldeo running Scald+Hydro Pump in the same set. There are times when you don't want to risk a miss and scald is more than enough damage, and there are times when you need the extra oomph to KO a mon

[Fumble]

So Nick is planning on doing something along the lines of this, although in more detail, so I'm just going to lock this thread. Thanks for discussing, and be sure to check out his when he makes it!