Shandera Tier Review

[Kimiko]

Shandera(Chandelure) a pokemon of great ability, often debated on where it should be in OU or Ubers. Following the trend of the major tiers people most have flat out just banned it. While here in Reborn it has been left in OU, it's power is great yes but is it broken in it's own way? That is what I intend to show.

A counter(Counter Defined as something that can switch in take a hit, or two if needed, and return fire KO'ing the poke it was sent against.) Is something shandera has not, While this works with many pokemon Shandera has a nifty little thing known as Shadow Tag. The ability Negates anyway to own a counter to it as switching is physically impossible. This results in the Direct ability to Revenge Kill just about anything in the OU meta game or in fact not even Revenge Kill but stop something from doing anything else.

The ways to limit it's power thus far in OU is one of two ways one is kinda iffy as it only cuts part of it's power

The 1st option being Stealth Rocks, which limit's it's use to 4/5 times coming in and out, a viable way of putting a dent in it's power and use.

The 2nd option would be a Rain Team, and from that you limit it's fire power and cut a vital part of it's power, but it still holds shadow ball and a decent chunk of power with that.

Shandera Runs two basic ways for speed + Power
Modest + Scarf for more attack, and less speed netting you 427 Sp.atk and 388 Speed(This being the version I will be doing all damage calculations with.)

And

Timid + Scarf for more speed, and less attack netting you 389 sp.atk and 426 Speed.


In the OU meta game listed by the Reborn Tiers listed from the link the Sever you have these numbered pokes in the Base defense listed(IE you have 12 pokemon with sp.def over base 100)

Over base 100: 12
Base 100: 7
Base 95: 6
Base 90: 6
Base 85: 5
base 80: 6
Below base 80: 14


This next part is damage calculation based on Base Defenses list being Base 100 to base 80, All calculations will be done with X1 resist to Fire/Ghost

Base 100
Over Heat: 271-321
Fire Blast: 234-276
Shadow Ball: 186-219

Base 95
Over Heat: 285-336
Fire Blast: 244-288
Shadow Ball: 193-228

Base 90
Over Heat: 297-351
Fire Blast: 255-301
Shadow Ball: 202-238

Base 85
Over Heat: 328-387
Fire Blast: 280-331
Shadow Ball: 222-262

Base 80
Over Heat: 328-387
Fire Blast: 280-331
Shadow Ball: 222-262


Using Base 100 Sp.def as the basis, Using Shadow Ball you can OHKO up to a Base of 48 HP No EV investment.

Using Base 100 Sp.def as the basis, Using Over Heat you can OHKO up to a Base of 94 HP No EV investment

More Calculations and numbers to follow in various edits if require(Ie how many have X base HP in OU)

[Yuki]

Christ.

You're a pro.

[Cyrus]

Counter=Scarfchomp

[Yuki]

Cyrus, that's one single pokemon with one single item...
A counter is something that lots of people would use in situations not involving Chandelure, but able to beat it. Also, Chandelure can switch out from scarfchomp.

[Kimiko]

[quote name='Slut' timestamp='1310102555' post='17420']
Cyrus, that's one single pokemon with one single item...
A counter is something that lots of people would use in situations not involving Chandelure, but able to beat it. Also, Chandelure can switch out from scarfchomp.
[/quote]
Was about to say that XD


But also again it's NOT a "Counter", it barely fits a Check.

But since Shandera comes down to come in Hit and kill, and leave after, a Scarf Chomp doesn't mean to much it.

While a handful of people use Scarf chomp most would be wary of using it against chomp with out knowing it's set 1st, I know I wouldn't Dare bring it in on chomp if I didn't know what type it was.

Being that finding that out isn't to hard because while chomp has nice base speed, you can have someone speedier on your team or a scarfer of your own if it outspeeds then you know better to bring it in against it.

[Amethyst]

This is even better planned out than I thought; well done.

However, to start, I'd like to contest your definition of a Counter.
[quote]Defined as something that can switch in take a hit, or two if needed, and return fire KO'ing the poke it was sent against.[/quote]
Firstly, return-fire KOing implies offense over defense. I honestly don't think you meant to exclude stall tactics with this wording, but the connotations of return-fire seem to lie more with offense. Just clearing up that stalling them out would also be successfully countering the Pokemon. Correct me if I'm wrong, there.

That's an aside though.
The part I take issue with is "can switch in."
As you say, Shadow Tag obviously prohibits [i]anything[/i] from switching in. However, if we then go by your definition, Shadow Tag Gothitelle would also be considered a Pokemon that has no counters, because nothing can switch into it. Yet, I think there are few people who suppose that Gothitelle should be ubers. Again, if you disagree, please say so.
Therefore, we must distinguish between Gothitelle and Chandelure. The obvious answer? The great offensive capability. Granted. But in making that distinction, it stands to reason that your definition of a counter is either unsatisfactory, or that a Pokemon having no counters is not reason enough to ban it to Ubers.


On a completely different tangent however, I'll contest what even I've said here: [quote] Shadow Tag obviously prohibits [i]anything[/i] from switching in. [/quote]
Though I phrased in that way for the sake of simplicity, that is actually a very inaccurate statement. Shadow Tag prevents nothing from switching in, but [i]most things[/i] from switching out. Shed Shell users and other Shadow Tag users can freely switch out, also meaning that under those circumstances [i]anything[/i] can switch in, and that opens up a whoooooole range of what could be a counter.
Moreover, the ability Arena Trap has the same effect on a smaller scale. Only ungrounded Pokemon are unaffect. Even beside that, Magnet Pull does the same to steel types, meaning that if a Magnet Pull Magnezone is sent out against your Skarmory, at that time the Magnezone, by your definition would effectively have no counters.
To take it even further, the moves Mean Look, Block, and Spider Web all also would induce a counter-less status on that Pokemon when used, and even [i]further than that[/i] things like Whirlpool, Fire Spin, Clamp, and WRAP.
All of this is just as conditional as Shadow Tag is.
For these reasons, I lean towards the former option in my above-stated logical fork-in-the-road: That the definition is flawed.

Before getting any further, I'll allow you to answer to this point.

[Yuki]

Just like to put in that you can Baton Pass, U-Turn, and Volt Switch against any of these abilities

[Geo]

WTF Is tis... Any Ame you can't put Gothictelle and Shandera on the same boat. Gothic bitch hardly poses a threat with Shadow tag while Shandera come, kills and play pussy. In usefulness scale of 1-3 I'll give Shandera 3 Gothic bitch 2 Wobbuffet 1. We know it faith is uber after Shadow tag comes out offically in the metagame but as wut I observe in other server they seperated Shadowtag into Uber and Normal Shandy as OU but however "You can't just ban ability cause other pokemon have it. Only the simulator can seperate but however this is not the case in the real metagame." hence why its going into ubers.

@ Hark: They all run Choice scarf + Shadow tag, Flash Fire and Trick room is hardly used. If they fear they are going to be outsped They'll just run into something that Resist or immune to your switching tactics and force you to switch out. Baton pass is a safe option but Shandera is mainly scarf, and why the fuck will they need to switch into an attack with Shadow tag, Fire flash + Balloon and Flame charge is something that'll make it immune to 2 types and give it moar chances to switch til the balloon pop. Most carry Fire Blast/Flamethower over Over heat so they can get moar kills, so wut ever you baton pass into, It either gotta resist and threaten or can take the hit. Going by they all are scarf logic nothing is fast enough to baton pass from it other then Ninjask.

(shadow tag + Balloon screws over Garchomp locked into EQ so heh Shandera get to Flame charge to +6 Mid game to late game Or AcidMindCharge. Your fucked~)

Shed shell.. Don't it seem ridiculous to have use an item in order to fool a single pokemon, not the whole team but just Shandera.

Also Kimiko.... So many damn numbers @.@ seriously LOL.

[Yuki]

Ame's putting them in the same boat because it was worded in a way that they could be.

And only half of them run scarf in my experience, but whether or not it was scarfed wasn't my point, the point was to bring up another way to get around shadow tag.

[Kimiko]

[quote name='Amethyst' timestamp='1310109277' post='17432']
This is even better planned out than I thought; well done.

However, to start, I'd like to contest your definition of a Counter.

Firstly, return-fire KOing implies offense over defense. I honestly don't think you meant to exclude stall tactics with this wording, but the connotations of return-fire seem to lie more with offense. Just clearing up that stalling them out would also be successfully countering the Pokemon. Correct me if I'm wrong, there.

That's an aside though.
The part I take issue with is "can switch in."
As you say, Shadow Tag obviously prohibits [i]anything[/i] from switching in. However, if we then go by your definition, Shadow Tag Gothitelle would also be considered a Pokemon that has no counters, because nothing can switch into it. Yet, I think there are few people who suppose that Gothitelle should be ubers. Again, if you disagree, please say so.
Therefore, we must distinguish between Gothitelle and Chandelure. The obvious answer? The great offensive capability. Granted. But in making that distinction, it stands to reason that your definition of a counter is either unsatisfactory, or that a Pokemon having no counters is not reason enough to ban it to Ubers.


On a completely different tangent however, I'll contest what even I've said here:
Though I phrased in that way for the sake of simplicity, that is actually a very inaccurate statement. Shadow Tag prevents nothing from switching in, but [i]most things[/i] from switching out. Shed Shell users and other Shadow Tag users can freely switch out, also meaning that under those circumstances [i]anything[/i] can switch in, and that opens up a whoooooole range of what could be a counter.
Moreover, the ability Arena Trap has the same effect on a smaller scale. Only ungrounded Pokemon are unaffect. Even beside that, Magnet Pull does the same to steel types, meaning that if a Magnet Pull Magnezone is sent out against your Skarmory, at that time the Magnezone, by your definition would effectively have no counters.
To take it even further, the moves Mean Look, Block, and Spider Web all also would induce a counter-less status on that Pokemon when used, and even [i]further than that[/i] things like Whirlpool, Fire Spin, Clamp, and WRAP.
All of this is just as conditional as Shadow Tag is.
For these reasons, I lean towards the former option in my above-stated logical fork-in-the-road: That the definition is flawed.

Before getting any further, I'll allow you to answer to this point.
[/quote]
Well to start off Stall is Viable, but the poke in question isn't one to stay in, to be stalled out. Which is why I left it to that stall is a form of variant context that could be used to KO it. But as it stands shandera mainly going scarfed and such wont have stall to worry about as a whole.


Ah, well I was waiting for someone to bring Gothitelle into the picture as there lies a difference between the two pokemon and their uses.

Look at Stats alone.

Shandera
Speed Base 80
Sp.atk Base 145

Gothitelle
Speed Base 65
Sp.atk Base 95

That alone shows a small light on why Shandera is a better option to use over Goth.

As well Being what it is Gothitelee can be good, but with out power to actually come in and KO or enough to set up before they take you out leaves the lack luster issue.

I HAVE seen it used in a various manor where it can be a threat to someone in they may sweep your team the big difference is the likely hood of that isn't to great.

It doesn't have counters either, but it's uses are far from the same. Shandera lies in a Revenge killer or stopping something you need such as say skarm or something.

The OTHER Difference between the two is the Stab basis.

Shandera Gets Ghost/Fire, a very potent in the OU meta as it can counter a good chunk of things that come along or hit them for neutral and still hit hard.

Gothitelle on the other hand only has one stab being Psychic which, well...We have a variety of other users with more speed and power or more bulk and as well as power, Two noted Espeon and Renuiclus(sp).

Shadow Tag is a nasty ability but it can be harmless depending on the wielder, Much like Wobbuffet he can be great or he can suck depending on who you are facing if they have set up or are mix...you can be in trouble and it can turn out useless and encore can try and help but it's luck based then.


While it not having counters isn't a total reason it's part of the grand total reason, It has power + no counters.

While Gothitelle has not counters but has no real power either.

Also to note it's not the whole pokemon, it's just Shandera + Shadow Tag in which I'm saying should be Uber.
Flash Fire Shandera is not broken but can still be potent to a point.

Now onto the 2nd half of such.

You talk of Shed Shell, which is an item to be held...So you're saying that this is a counter, when you have to hold an item for just ONE pokemon you MAY see in the OU metagame? That would be a forced thing...For a Select chance, which has been proven in the past to also be a reason for it to be bumped to ubers. As it requires you have this basically to play on a basic even footing. Also, you have to freely give up an item slot on your team for something that could do that. As well...It means if you lose that one who has it early and they don't bring it in till late game....Or not against that one the "counter" would be ineffective no?

Also you talk of Arena trap, I don't know my self since i've never tested that theory if shadow tag + Arena trap allow you to switch out, if it does then you're lucky enough to have what? One Pokemon who has the ability, a pokemon who isn't really used in OU because it's nice...But doesn't hold much of a candle to others of similar qualities, and if you HAVE to have to counter shandy...That's 1/6 of your team given to just being able to counter ONE pokemon out of all the OU's. Plus even with it's speed...You'd have to scarf Dugtrio to counter Shandy's speed. Which there in even FURTHER limits it's ability to do much at all in the OU range.


Steel Electric for mag....X4 weakness to Ground Yes it's a GREAT Scizor/Skarm/Ferro counter..It's EVIL to them i mean beyond reason.
I my self have used this combo before to establish a basis of being able to get rid of it, and some others if lucky.

The difference is again a speed factor here Mag is Base 60 speed, and if you want it to counter steel types you need HP fire. Which allows other to mess with it, this one is Similar but it's still not a candle holder. Why is simply Less speed, and Selective type grabbing only blocks steels. Shadow tag does not discriminate in terms of typing it stops all. As it DOES have counters because unless it's a steel type, you can freely switch giving it a vast number of things to toss at who aren't steel.

Onto Trap Moves.
Always had fun watching people use these....Normally don't work to well in the long run unless you get lucky or you have REALLY planned out for any contingency in OU which I don't believe is possible.

Spider Web: Two Pokemon learn it, neither are OU, one is NU the other NU/UU.

Ariados, Don't really need to say much for the poor little guy Bug/Posion bad typing. Bad stats...Move pool could use work.

Galvantula, Now he is the speed demon of trap moves, Problem though not enough bulk. He really doesn't have what he needs to be any threat with Spider Web. Plus if I recall right he doesn't have baton pass....So it's a 100% free hit on you if they stick in...If they switch it didn't really do anything now did it?


Mean Look
Now this move...I've seen it more then once in baton pass based teams...it can be valuable to them or it can be 100% useless It's all how the team functions and who it's up against in the long run. Now these boys...Who have mean look accessible to them a lot of them have the BULK...But no speed which may prove handy

The thing being here once again is Switching, if you have speed and no bulk you die to a hit.

You have bulk but no speed they switch into something that can deal with you and it makes your mean look kinda iffy...Unless you pack BP which can make it a little better.

But I've only seen Mean Look work Once in a stall battle, and now and then work in a baton pass based team.

So while they may SEEM to have the same powers as Shadow tag, the principles are not the same quality based.


Shadow Tag works with out using a turn, with out using a move slot, with out anyone having to do anything.
It's like Ditto's Imposter ability just auto works, no nothing needed before or after or during.

The closest you brought up was magnet pull which again is a close one but extremely selective on it's uses.

I look forward to your next post in what you left out as well as rebuttal for any of the given points, been a long while since I had a challenge before me, and I have to say I'm enjoying this one.

Also since you challenged it by it's wording could you suggest a better one for me then as I did this in a bit of a hurry, had one whole thing bigger then the current post...But Chrome Errored...And Deleted it....So I had to redo it with out 100% the same info. So some help would be lovely, thank you in advance.

[Geo]

Inb4 tis get how many post as the Shandera thread did in PO
Inb4 struggle and rage and trollin
Inb4 Mafia being a bro
Inb4 Ame tells me something about theses Inb4s

[Kimiko]

[quote name='Geo' timestamp='1310113274' post='17445']
Inb4 tis get how many post as the Shandera thread did in PO
Inb4 struggle and rage and trollin
Inb4 Mafia being a bro
Inb4 Ame tells me something about theses Inb4s
[/quote]
Lol, well thank you for these Wonderful Inb4's.

I use them my self while battling and they normally come true.

[Cyrus]

Chansey trolls the FUCK out of Chandy.
Same can be said with Blissey.

[Kimiko]

[quote name='Cyrus' timestamp='1310113671' post='17448']
Chansey trolls the FUCK out of Chandy.
Same can be said with Blissey.
[/quote]
Okay...Why would you bring that in on either on them? So it DOESN'T troll them...

It's like saying why would you bring in a kingdra on a garchomp who is using outrage.

[Amethyst]

I think that on the whole you've missed my point. I know that none of the specific examples I listed, Magnet Pull, Mean Look, etc, have any real gravity. I was simply drawing out the slippery slope to illustrate that something like Shadow Tag is not black and white- that nothing can switch in/out. Things can switch in circumstantially, meaning by your definition, it can still be countered. If you want to account for those circumstances in the consideration of what is worthy of a ban and what isn't then your definition becomes much more complex, round-about and generally muddled.
Hence my suggestion to change that definition's premise.

I also acknowledge Gothitelle poses little threat to the general metagame. Again, I only brought it into this for you to make the distinction that Shadow Tag is not the defining factor alone, and therefore that the issue was not with what could or could not switch in or out of it.

Because to me it seems like you've tried to slip out of discussing what can actually counter it by focusing instead on the circumstances in which the match up occurs. That is a matter of how the Pokemon are used, not what they are themselves. To make my meaning clear...
You argue that anything sent in to KO Chandelure is effectively useless, because Chandelure will simply run away. Correct, it will, assuming the player is intelligent and able to maneuver in such away. That's what it does. That's how it's supposed to work.
Is that unfair?
It's no different than any other Pokemon. You've just KO'd something with Machamp. Your opponent sends in Alakazam. You gonna stay in with Machamp, or switch to something that can handle the hit? Assuming you have something to do so, it's common sense to switch.
So I don't really see how it matters that Chandelure can just run away. In fact, if you can predict that, then the battle can still shift in your favor.

However, that's an aside again.
You finally did reach my main point at the end of your post... Redefining a Counter.
We're making a distinction between the normal denotation, and the connotations as applied to this metagame.
The most relevant denotations read:
[quote]1. To meet or return (a blow) by another blow.
2. To move or act in opposition to; oppose.
3. To offer in response:[/quote]
The fact is, this is a very difficult question to answer. The metagame as a whole would be much more settled if an answer could be easily decided on, but nothing is going to be quite adequate. I can't even say... something to the effect of, "A counter is a Pokemon capable of KOing another Pokemon" because [i]everything[/i] is circumstantial. The aforementioned Alakazam is not capable of countering an average Machamp at low health thanks to Bullet Punch. Does it no longer apply? It's even more difficult to set up a vacuum in which these things can be tested because to do so is in itself a fallacy. For instance, to say, if both are at full health, can X KO Y? Or, in a 1v1 setting can X KO Y. Those circumstance will seldom occur in a typical battle, and are therefore diminished in utility.
The only accurate thing to do is examine their place in a full team. The problem is in order to accurately analyse this, you would, paradoxically, have to have an 100% understanding of all possibilities and outcomes in a metagame, which is not only unreasonable, but very probably inhuman.
And thus is created this big rats nest of a strategy game we're all trying to figure out by playing it.

And yet, therein is the key, I think, for this case: Chandelure's place in a team itself. Although it may be good, very good, at taking down individual Pokemon itself, perhaps only because it is most often only placed into circumstances where it is able to do so, it does not take whole teams out, or over centralise them.
If there was any doubt about this Reborn's battling environment itself should belay it. I cannot recall a time where a regular here has reported that they consistently have trouble dealing with Chandelure across a variety of teams, and very rarely that Chandelure breaks even one of theirs. Occasionally we get, "yeah, this team is very Chandelure-weak." But then, every team has its threats. Is it breaking our metagame? Not at all.

I view Chandelure as a check to stall teams, largely, and some other peripheral situations. Just like Ditto is a check to set up. We know to play these games with the fact in mind that, "Oh, if I dance up to +6, Ditto could come in and wipe me out."
An example provided by Geo previously: We send in Scizor, and know that the opponent may switch from Tyranitar to Chandelure. Use Night Slash instead of Bullet Punch. Simple. It's the game. Play smart.
I do concede this... Chandelure tips the scales. It's easy and simple to use, with great utility. It makes it easy for a player to control the flow of a battle. But not impossible for a skilled opponent to deal with. Often not even difficult.

[Guest Mafia]

Pursuit tar
rain teams
heatran
stealth rock
Spikes
Weavil
Set up sweepers after a overheat
pursuit cb scizors on a none fire move
roar or WW with sr up
Calm minders
sucker punchers
aqua jet
Charlie Sheen
Chendurlur is a one trick pony, its always scarfed, has ST and it spams its stabs. Its annoying like any top tier ou but since we have less bans on this server we have more ways to deal with him.

[Kimiko]

Well as I said recreation of my post, had to work with what I could remember if you'd like to chime in on exactly what you might like to call a viable definition for a counter then I'll put that instead.

As well while you have given a few examples of things that work around the un-ability to switch, you didn't give counters to it. You gave possible checks.

will never win you games single-handedly, but he punches large holes in teams that his 5 compadres can easily exploit. That's the key factor of Shandy, I never said it can win one alone that's not it's job, it's job is to make holes and deal with something you may not have been able to take normally.

As well I'll also give it does over centralize things as you have to have X and Y for it, while it's not enough for it alone to banned it does give it cause to look at it heavily.

Something to note as well not counting shandy it's self out of the top 20 OU's left he is strong against.

12 He can hit super effectively, out of the 20, as well.

Giving a tad bit of prior damage most he can KO on his own, adding into that factor of usability.

The biggest check is still rain, but if it takes an entire style of play to beat out one poke that's a bit much.

As well shandy can be used in Sun and Sand Teams, which allow for rain to not be to much of an issue.

Side note data here, forgot...I had some numbers stashed away on a flash drive about this XD

Anyway the difference from those above and these this is timid meaning loss of power, which some of those which don't KO might KO if you run Modest.

But yeah....It's helpful to see damage from it really.

[spoiler]252 Timid Choice Scarf Shandera Overheat

vs. 4/0 Timid Choice Scarf Shandera : 51.5% - 60.7% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/196 Sassy Leftovers Nattorei : 192% - 226.1% (OHKO)
vs. 252/0 Adamant Leftovers Roobushin : 85% - 100.2% (possible OHKO with SR)
vs. 252/0 Timid Choice Scarf Ditto : 147.3% - 174% (OHKO)
vs. 4/0 Jolly Doryuuzu : 194.5% - 229.3% (OHKO)
vs. 40/0 Adamant Leftovers Blaziken : 53.1% - 62.7% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Jolly Choice Scarf Tyranitar : 36% - 42.7% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/196 Sassy Leftovers Politoed : 24.2% - 28.9% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Life Orb Breloom : 286.3% - 337.4% (OHKO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Leftovers Jarooda : 177.4% - 209.6% (OHKO)
vs. 0/4 Timid Leftovers Espeon : 95.2% - 112.2% (OHKO with SR)
vs. 4/0 Jolly Choice Scarf Garchomp : 39.7% - 46.9% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Leftovers Kingdra : 21.9% - 26% (doesn't KO)
vs. 248/0 Adamant Choice Band Scizor : 347.5% - 410.5% (OHKO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Leftovers Urugamosu : 76% - 89.7% (OHKO with SR)
vs. 4/0 Timid Choice Scarf Sazandora : 41.4% - 48.8% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/252 Calm Leftovers Burungeru : 21.3% - 25.2% (doesn't KO)
vs. 192/0 Timid Leftovers Zapdos : 73.4% - 86.4% (possible OHKO with SR)
vs. 252/0 Impish Life Orb Dragonite : 31.9% - 37.8% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Choice Scarf Heatran : 0% - 0% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/4 Impish Leftovers Hippowdon : 76.7% - 90.7% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Life Orb Ninetales : 42.7% - 50.7% (doesn't KO)
vs. 72/0 Timid Life Orb Genosekuto : 344.2% - 406.6% (OHKO)
vs. 4/0 Jolly Leftovers Gyarados : 37% - 44% (doesn't KO)
vs. Jolly Lum Berry Ononokusu : 56.3% - 66.6% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Focus Sash Cloyster : 191.7% - 225.6% (OHKO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Life Orb Starmie : 54.2% - 64.1% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Leftovers Kerudio : 41.7% - 49.1% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Timid Leftovers Erufuun : 193.2% - 228.4% (OHKO)
vs. 188/68 Bold Leftovers Vaporeon : 26.8% - 31.7% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Life Orb Gengar : 119.5% - 141.2% (OHKO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Life Orb Zoroaaku : 143.1% - 168.7% (OHKO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Life Orb Borutorosu : 99.3% - 117.3% (OHKO with SR)
vs. 252/4 Hardy Leftovers Forretress : 421.5% - 496% (OHKO)
vs. Naive Life Orb Salamence : 49.8% - 58.9% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Jolly Choice Scarf Randorosu : 93.1% - 110% (OHKO with SR)
vs. 252/0 Impish Leftovers Skarmory : 198.2% - 234.1% (OHKO)
vs. 252/0 Jolly Toxic Orb Gliscor : 88.4% - 104.5% (OHKO with SR)
vs. 252/252 Careful Leftovers Zuruzukin : 48.5% - 57.5% (doesn't KO)
vs. Jolly Life Orb Infernape : 56.3% - 66.2% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/4 Bold Leftovers Blissey : 26.9% - 31.7% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Quiet Life Orb Rankurusu : 67.2% - 79.2% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Choice Specs Latios : 37.7% - 44.7% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/128 Bold Porygon2 : 61% - 71.7% (doesn't KO)
vs. 244/0 Adamant Occa Berry Metagross : 74.9% - 88.1% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/128 Careful Leftovers Jirachi : 98.5% - 116.3% (OHKO with SR)
vs. 4/0 Modest Life Orb Ludicolo : 81.5% - 96.7% (possible OHKO with SR)
vs. 252/136 Calm Leftovers Tentacruel : 23.6% - 28% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Life Orb Lucario : 234.8% - 277.3% (OHKO)
vs. 4/0 Jolly Life Orb Kojondo : 137.9% - 162.5% (OHKO)
vs. 128/0 Adamant Leftovers Machamp : 80.7% - 95.2% (possible OHKO with SR)
vs. Modest Leftovers Suicune : 32.3% - 37.8% (doesn't KO)
vs. 240/52 Relaxed Leftovers Swampert : 31.7% - 37.4% (doesn't KO)
vs. Naughty Life Orb Venusaur : 183.4% - 215.9% (OHKO)
vs. 252/68 Bold Leftovers Togekiss : 55.3% - 65.2% (doesn't KO)
vs. 0/4 Timid Leftovers Alakazam : 112.4% - 132.7% (OHKO)
vs. 252/252 Careful Leftovers Sableye : 77% - 90.8% (possible OHKO with SR)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Choice Scarf Hihidaruma : 56.8% - 67% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Bold Leftovers Rotom-W : 38.5% - 45.4% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Timid Focus Sash Smeargle : 148.1% - 174.2% (OHKO)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Choice Band Mamoswine : 103.3% - 122.7% (OHKO)
vs. Adamant Leftovers Goruggo : 93.4% - 110.3% (possible OHKO with SR)
vs. 4/0 Jolly Life Orb Terakion : 41.7% - 49.1% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Bold Chansey : 33.7% - 39.8% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Jolly Electivire : 97.6% - 115.1% (OHKO with SR)
vs. 4/0 Timid Choice Specs Jolteon : 95.2% - 112.5% (OHKO with SR)
vs. Hasty Choice Scarf Abomasnow : 355.1% - 418.7% (OHKO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Focus Sash Azelf : 113.4% - 133.9% (OHKO)
vs. 192/0 Modest Focus Sash Deoxys-S : 93.8% - 110.4% (OHKO with SR)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Life Orb Arcanine : 0% - 0% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Choice Specs Denchura : 266% - 313.5% (OHKO)
vs. Jolly Life Orb Chirachiino : 128.9% - 151.9% (OHKO)
vs. Adamant Focus Sash Weavile : 202.8% - 239.1% (OHKO)
vs. 0/4 Timid Choice Scarf Charizard : 47.5% - 55.9% (possible OHKO with SR)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Choice Scarf Warubiaru : 99.7% - 117.8% (OHKO with SR)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Life Orb Kabutops : 31.3% - 37% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/120 Bold Leftovers Desukan : 65.9% - 78.1% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Jolly Focus Sash Aerodactyl : 51.7% - 61.3% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Impish Leftovers Donphan : 97.7% - 115.1% (OHKO with SR)
vs. 4/0 Timid Life Orb Nidoking : 103% - 121.7% (OHKO)
vs. Adamant Choice Scarf Staraptor : 138.3% - 163% (OHKO)
vs. 12/0 Modest Petaya Berry Empoleon : 78.8% - 92.9% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Life Orb Feraligatr : 46.2% - 54.8% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/56 Impish Leftovers Celebi : 115.8% - 136.6% (OHKO)
vs. 252/96 Relaxed Leftovers Bronzong : 118.9% - 140.2% (OHKO)
vs. 252/4 Bold Leftovers Slowbro : 37.6% - 44.4% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/100 Bold Leftovers Milotic : 23.9% - 28.2% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Bold Leftovers Latias : 27.2% - 32.1% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Choice Scarf Magnezone : 192.2% - 226.2% (OHKO)
vs. 188/216 Careful Leftovers Snorlax : 17.1% - 20.3% (doesn't KO)
vs. Timid Life Orb Bikutini : 36.1% - 42.8% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Modest Leftovers Shibirudon : 79.7% - 94.1% (possible OHKO with SR)
vs. 4/0 Modest Choice Specs Agirudaa : 248.3% - 292.7% (OHKO)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Choice Scarf Flygon : 49.3% - 58.3% (doesn't KO)
vs. 0/4 Timid BrightPowder Froslass : 235.6% - 277.6% (OHKO)
vs. 252/0 Adamant Life Orb Hitmontop : 75.3% - 88.8% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Jolly Life Orb Meloetta : 58.8% - 69.3% (doesn't KO)
vs. Hasty Choice Scarf Aianto : 687.9% - 812.5% (OHKO)
vs. Naive Life Orb Kyuremu : 76.7% - 90.5% (OHKO with SR)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Choice Scarf Heracross : 171.5% - 202.6% (OHKO)[/spoiler]

[spoiler]252 Timid Choice Scarf Shandera Shadow Ball

vs. 4/0 Timid Choice Scarf Shandera : 119.1% - 140.5% (OHKO)
vs. 252/196 Sassy Leftovers Nattorei : 13.6% - 16.2% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Adamant Leftovers Roobushin : 48.8% - 57.5% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Timid Choice Scarf Ditto : 0% - 0% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Jolly Doryuuzu : 27.9% - 32.9% (doesn't KO)
vs. 40/0 Adamant Leftovers Blaziken : 61.1% - 72.3% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Jolly Choice Scarf Tyranitar : 20.8% - 24.6% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/196 Sassy Leftovers Politoed : 28.1% - 33.1% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Life Orb Breloom : 81.7% - 96.6% (possible OHKO with SR)
vs. 4/0 Timid Leftovers Jarooda : 50.7% - 59.9% (doesn't KO)
vs. 0/4 Timid Leftovers Espeon : 109.2% - 129.2% (OHKO)
vs. 4/0 Jolly Choice Scarf Garchomp : 45.3% - 53.6% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Leftovers Kingdra : 50.7% - 59.9% (doesn't KO)
vs. 248/0 Adamant Choice Band Scizor : 24.8% - 29.4% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Leftovers Urugamosu : 43.6% - 51.9% (possible OHKO with SR)
vs. 4/0 Timid Choice Scarf Sazandora : 23.9% - 28.2% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/252 Calm Leftovers Burungeru : 49.5% - 58.4% (doesn't KO)
vs. 192/0 Timid Leftovers Zapdos : 42.3% - 49.9% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Impish Life Orb Dragonite : 36.8% - 43.5% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Choice Scarf Heatran : 20.7% - 24.7% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/4 Impish Leftovers Hippowdon : 44.3% - 52.1% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Life Orb Ninetales : 49.3% - 58.3% (doesn't KO)
vs. 72/0 Timid Life Orb Genosekuto : 24.6% - 28.9% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Jolly Leftovers Gyarados : 42.8% - 50.6% (doesn't KO)
vs. Jolly Lum Berry Ononokusu : 64.8% - 76.8% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Focus Sash Cloyster : 109.5% - 129.3% (OHKO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Life Orb Starmie : 123.7% - 146.6% (OHKO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Leftovers Kerudio : 48.1% - 56.8% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Timid Leftovers Erufuun : 55.6% - 65.7% (doesn't KO)
vs. 188/68 Bold Leftovers Vaporeon : 30.8% - 36.4% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Life Orb Gengar : 137.4% - 162.6% (OHKO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Life Orb Zoroaaku : 40.8% - 48.1% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Life Orb Borutorosu : 57% - 67.3% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/4 Hardy Leftovers Forretress : 29.9% - 35.6% (doesn't KO)
vs. Naive Life Orb Salamence : 57.4% - 68% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Jolly Choice Scarf Randorosu : 53.4% - 63.1% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Impish Leftovers Skarmory : 28.4% - 33.5% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Jolly Toxic Orb Gliscor : 50.8% - 60.2% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/252 Careful Leftovers Zuruzukin : 13.8% - 16.5% (doesn't KO)
vs. Jolly Life Orb Infernape : 63.8% - 75.8% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/4 Bold Leftovers Blissey : 0% - 0% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Quiet Life Orb Rankurusu : 76.4% - 90.6% (possible OHKO with SR)
vs. 4/0 Timid Choice Specs Latios : 87.4% - 103.3% (possible OHKO with SR)
vs. 252/128 Bold Porygon2 : 0% - 0% (doesn't KO)
vs. 244/0 Adamant Occa Berry Metagross : 43.1% - 50.8% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/128 Careful Leftovers Jirachi : 28.2% - 33.2% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Modest Life Orb Ludicolo : 47% - 55.6% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/136 Calm Leftovers Tentacruel : 27.2% - 32.1% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Life Orb Lucario : 33.7% - 39.7% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Jolly Life Orb Kojondo : 78.7% - 93% (doesn't KO)
vs. 128/0 Adamant Leftovers Machamp : 45.9% - 54.4% (doesn't KO)
vs. Modest Leftovers Suicune : 37.2% - 44% (doesn't KO)
vs. 240/52 Relaxed Leftovers Swampert : 36.7% - 43.4% (doesn't KO)
vs. Naughty Life Orb Venusaur : 52.8% - 62.1% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/68 Bold Leftovers Togekiss : 0% - 0% (doesn't KO)
vs. 0/4 Timid Leftovers Alakazam : 129.1% - 153% (OHKO)
vs. 252/252 Careful Leftovers Sableye : 44.1% - 52% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Choice Scarf Hihidaruma : 65.1% - 77% (possible OHKO with SR)
vs. 252/0 Bold Leftovers Rotom-W : 44.4% - 52.3% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Timid Focus Sash Smeargle : 0% - 0% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Choice Band Mamoswine : 59.1% - 69.9% (doesn't KO)
vs. Adamant Leftovers Goruggo : 107.2% - 126.6% (OHKO)
vs. 4/0 Jolly Life Orb Terakion : 48.1% - 56.8% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Bold Chansey : 0% - 0% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Jolly Electivire : 55.5% - 65.8% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Choice Specs Jolteon : 54.4% - 64.3% (doesn't KO)
vs. Hasty Choice Scarf Abomasnow : 50.5% - 59.8% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Focus Sash Azelf : 130.1% - 154.1% (OHKO)
vs. 192/0 Modest Focus Sash Deoxys-S : 108% - 127.3% (OHKO)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Life Orb Arcanine : 53.1% - 62.7% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Choice Specs Denchura : 75.9% - 89.7% (OHKO with SR)
vs. Jolly Life Orb Chirachiino : 0% - 0% (doesn't KO)
vs. Adamant Focus Sash Weavile : 28.8% - 34.2% (doesn't KO)
vs. 0/4 Timid Choice Scarf Charizard : 54.5% - 64.6% (OHKO with SR)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Choice Scarf Warubiaru : 28.6% - 33.7% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Life Orb Kabutops : 72.5% - 85.9% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/120 Bold Leftovers Desukan : 75.6% - 90% (possible OHKO with SR)
vs. 4/0 Jolly Focus Sash Aerodactyl : 59.6% - 70.5% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Impish Leftovers Donphan : 55.7% - 65.9% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Life Orb Nidoking : 59.2% - 70.1% (doesn't KO)
vs. Adamant Choice Scarf Staraptor : 0% - 0% (doesn't KO)
vs. 12/0 Modest Petaya Berry Empoleon : 22.4% - 26.6% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Life Orb Feraligatr : 53.2% - 62.8% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/56 Impish Leftovers Celebi : 66.8% - 78.7% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/96 Relaxed Leftovers Bronzong : 33.7% - 40.2% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/4 Bold Leftovers Slowbro : 85.8% - 102% (possible OHKO with SR)
vs. 252/100 Bold Leftovers Milotic : 27.7% - 32.7% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Bold Leftovers Latias : 62.6% - 74.2% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Choice Scarf Magnezone : 27.7% - 32.6% (doesn't KO)
vs. 188/216 Careful Leftovers Snorlax : 0% - 0% (doesn't KO)
vs. Timid Life Orb Bikutini : 83.3% - 98.5% (OHKO with SR)
vs. 252/0 Modest Leftovers Shibirudon : 45.7% - 54% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Modest Choice Specs Agirudaa : 70.9% - 83.8% (possible OHKO with SR)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Choice Scarf Flygon : 56.6% - 66.9% (doesn't KO)
vs. 0/4 Timid BrightPowder Froslass : 134.5% - 158.7% (OHKO)
vs. 252/0 Adamant Life Orb Hitmontop : 43.4% - 51.3% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Jolly Life Orb Meloetta : 0% - 0% (doesn't KO)
vs. Hasty Choice Scarf Aianto : 49.4% - 58.4% (doesn't KO)
vs. Naive Life Orb Kyuremu : 44% - 52.2% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Choice Scarf Heracross : 49% - 57.9% (doesn't KO)
[/spoiler]
[spoiler]
252 Timid Choice Scarf Shandera Energy Ball

vs. 4/0 Timid Choice Scarf Shandera : 19.8% - 23.3% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/196 Sassy Leftovers Nattorei : 4.5% - 5.4% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Adamant Leftovers Roobushin : 32.6% - 38.4% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Timid Choice Scarf Ditto : 56.7% - 66.7% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Jolly Doryuuzu : 37.3% - 43.9% (doesn't KO)
vs. 40/0 Adamant Leftovers Blaziken : 20.3% - 24.1% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Jolly Choice Scarf Tyranitar : 55.6% - 65.5% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/196 Sassy Leftovers Politoed : 37.5% - 44.3% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Life Orb Breloom : 27.1% - 32.1% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Leftovers Jarooda : 16.8% - 19.9% (doesn't KO)
vs. 0/4 Timid Leftovers Espeon : 36.5% - 43.2% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Jolly Choice Scarf Garchomp : 30.2% - 35.8% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Leftovers Kingdra : 33.9% - 40.1% (doesn't KO)
vs. 248/0 Adamant Choice Band Scizor : 8.2% - 9.6% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Leftovers Urugamosu : 7.1% - 8.7% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Choice Scarf Sazandora : 16% - 18.7% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/252 Calm Leftovers Burungeru : 33.2% - 39.1% (doesn't KO)
vs. 192/0 Timid Leftovers Zapdos : 14.1% - 16.5% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Impish Life Orb Dragonite : 6% - 7.3% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Choice Scarf Heatran : 6.8% - 8% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/4 Impish Leftovers Hippowdon : 59% - 69.5% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Life Orb Ninetales : 16.3% - 19.4% (doesn't KO)
vs. 72/0 Timid Life Orb Genosekuto : 8% - 9.6% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Jolly Leftovers Gyarados : 28.6% - 33.7% (doesn't KO)
vs. Jolly Lum Berry Ononokusu : 21.5% - 25.6% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Focus Sash Cloyster : 146.3% - 172.7% (OHKO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Life Orb Starmie : 82.4% - 97.7% (possible OHKO with SR)
vs. 4/0 Timid Leftovers Kerudio : 64.2% - 75.9% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Timid Leftovers Erufuun : 18.5% - 21.9% (doesn't KO)
vs. 188/68 Bold Leftovers Vaporeon : 41.1% - 48.7% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Life Orb Gengar : 22.9% - 27.1% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Life Orb Zoroaaku : 54.6% - 64.5% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Life Orb Borutorosu : 19% - 22.3% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/4 Hardy Leftovers Forretress : 9.9% - 11.9% (doesn't KO)
vs. Naive Life Orb Salamence : 9.4% - 11.2% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Jolly Choice Scarf Randorosu : 35.6% - 42.2% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Impish Leftovers Skarmory : 9.3% - 11.1% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Jolly Toxic Orb Gliscor : 33.9% - 40.1% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/252 Careful Leftovers Zuruzukin : 18.6% - 22.2% (doesn't KO)
vs. Jolly Life Orb Infernape : 21.2% - 25.3% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/4 Bold Leftovers Blissey : 10.2% - 12.2% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Quiet Life Orb Rankurusu : 25.5% - 30.2% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Choice Specs Latios : 14.6% - 17.2% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/128 Bold Porygon2 : 23.3% - 27.5% (doesn't KO)
vs. 244/0 Adamant Occa Berry Metagross : 14.4% - 16.9% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/128 Careful Leftovers Jirachi : 9.4% - 11.1% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Modest Life Orb Ludicolo : 31.5% - 37.1% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/136 Calm Leftovers Tentacruel : 18.1% - 21.4% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Life Orb Lucario : 22.3% - 26.6% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Jolly Life Orb Kojondo : 52.6% - 62.1% (doesn't KO)
vs. 128/0 Adamant Leftovers Machamp : 30.6% - 36.3% (doesn't KO)
vs. Modest Leftovers Suicune : 49.9% - 58.7% (doesn't KO)
vs. 240/52 Relaxed Leftovers Swampert : 97.8% - 115.7% (OHKO with SR)
vs. Naughty Life Orb Venusaur : 8.6% - 10.3% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/68 Bold Leftovers Togekiss : 10.4% - 12.6% (doesn't KO)
vs. 0/4 Timid Leftovers Alakazam : 43% - 51% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/252 Careful Leftovers Sableye : 29.6% - 34.9% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Choice Scarf Hihidaruma : 21.6% - 25.6% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Bold Leftovers Rotom-W : 59.2% - 69.7% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Timid Focus Sash Smeargle : 56.4% - 66.6% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Choice Band Mamoswine : 79% - 93.4% (possible OHKO with SR)
vs. Adamant Leftovers Goruggo : 71.5% - 84.6% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Jolly Life Orb Terakion : 64.2% - 75.9% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Bold Chansey : 12.9% - 15.3% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Jolly Electivire : 37% - 43.8% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Choice Specs Jolteon : 36.4% - 43% (doesn't KO)
vs. Hasty Choice Scarf Abomasnow : 16.8% - 19.9% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Focus Sash Azelf : 43.5% - 51.4% (doesn't KO)
vs. 192/0 Modest Focus Sash Deoxys-S : 36% - 42.6% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Life Orb Arcanine : 17.7% - 20.8% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Choice Specs Denchura : 25.2% - 29.8% (doesn't KO)
vs. Jolly Life Orb Chirachiino : 49.1% - 58.1% (doesn't KO)
vs. Adamant Focus Sash Weavile : 38.4% - 45.6% (doesn't KO)
vs. 0/4 Timid Choice Scarf Charizard : 9.1% - 10.8% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Choice Scarf Warubiaru : 76.5% - 90.4% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Life Orb Kabutops : 193.9% - 229% (OHKO)
vs. 252/120 Bold Leftovers Desukan : 25.3% - 30% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Jolly Focus Sash Aerodactyl : 39.7% - 47% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Impish Leftovers Donphan : 74.5% - 88% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Life Orb Nidoking : 39.5% - 46.7% (doesn't KO)
vs. Adamant Choice Scarf Staraptor : 26.4% - 31.2% (doesn't KO)
vs. 12/0 Modest Petaya Berry Empoleon : 30.1% - 35.6% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Life Orb Feraligatr : 71.2% - 84% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/56 Impish Leftovers Celebi : 11.1% - 13.1% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/96 Relaxed Leftovers Bronzong : 11.2% - 13.3% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/4 Bold Leftovers Slowbro : 57.4% - 68% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/100 Bold Leftovers Milotic : 37.1% - 43.7% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Bold Leftovers Latias : 10.4% - 12.4% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Choice Scarf Magnezone : 18.4% - 21.6% (doesn't KO)
vs. 188/216 Careful Leftovers Snorlax : 13% - 15.4% (doesn't KO)
vs. Timid Life Orb Bikutini : 13.8% - 16.4% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Modest Leftovers Shibirudon : 30.5% - 36.1% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Modest Choice Specs Agirudaa : 23.5% - 27.8% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Choice Scarf Flygon : 37.7% - 44.7% (doesn't KO)
vs. 0/4 Timid BrightPowder Froslass : 44.8% - 53% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Adamant Life Orb Hitmontop : 28.9% - 34.2% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Jolly Life Orb Meloetta : 22.5% - 26.6% (doesn't KO)
vs. Hasty Choice Scarf Aianto : 16.3% - 19.5% (doesn't KO)
vs. Naive Life Orb Kyuremu : 14.6% - 17.4% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Choice Scarf Heracross : 16.2% - 19.2% (doesn't KO)
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]
252 Timid Choice Scarf Shandera Hidden Power

vs. 4/0 Timid Choice Scarf Shandera : 17.2% - 20.2% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/196 Sassy Leftovers Nattorei : 15.9% - 19% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Adamant Leftovers Roobushin : 28.5% - 33.6% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Timid Choice Scarf Ditto : 49.3% - 58.3% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Jolly Doryuuzu : 32.6% - 38.4% (doesn't KO)
vs. 40/0 Adamant Leftovers Blaziken : 17.7% - 20.9% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Jolly Choice Scarf Tyranitar : 24.3% - 28.7% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/196 Sassy Leftovers Politoed : 8.1% - 9.6% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Life Orb Breloom : 95.4% - 113% (OHKO with SR)
vs. 4/0 Timid Leftovers Jarooda : 59.6% - 70.5% (doesn't KO)
vs. 0/4 Timid Leftovers Espeon : 31.7% - 37.6% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Jolly Choice Scarf Garchomp : 107.3% - 126.3% (OHKO)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Leftovers Kingdra : 29.5% - 34.9% (doesn't KO)
vs. 248/0 Adamant Choice Band Scizor : 14.6% - 17.2% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Leftovers Urugamosu : 12.5% - 15.1% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Choice Scarf Sazandora : 55.2% - 65.6% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/252 Calm Leftovers Burungeru : 7.2% - 8.4% (doesn't KO)
vs. 192/0 Timid Leftovers Zapdos : 48.8% - 58% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Impish Life Orb Dragonite : 86% - 101.6% (OHKO with SR)
vs. 4/0 Timid Choice Scarf Heatran : 5.9% - 7.1% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/4 Impish Leftovers Hippowdon : 51.4% - 61% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Life Orb Ninetales : 14.2% - 17% (doesn't KO)
vs. 72/0 Timid Life Orb Genosekuto : 14.3% - 16.9% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Jolly Leftovers Gyarados : 24.7% - 29.5% (doesn't KO)
vs. Jolly Lum Berry Ononokusu : 75.8% - 89.4% (possible OHKO with SR)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Focus Sash Cloyster : 15.7% - 18.6% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Life Orb Starmie : 18.3% - 21.4% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Leftovers Kerudio : 13.9% - 16.4% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Timid Leftovers Erufuun : 64.8% - 76.5% (doesn't KO)
vs. 188/68 Bold Leftovers Vaporeon : 8.9% - 10.7% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Life Orb Gengar : 40.1% - 47.3% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Life Orb Zoroaaku : 47.7% - 56.5% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Life Orb Borutorosu : 66.7% - 78.7% (possible OHKO with SR)
vs. 252/4 Hardy Leftovers Forretress : 17.5% - 20.6% (doesn't KO)
vs. Naive Life Orb Salamence : 134.1% - 158.3% (OHKO)
vs. 4/0 Jolly Choice Scarf Randorosu : 125% - 147.5% (OHKO)
vs. 252/0 Impish Leftovers Skarmory : 32.9% - 38.9% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Jolly Toxic Orb Gliscor : 118.6% - 140.1% (OHKO)
vs. 252/252 Careful Leftovers Zuruzukin : 16.5% - 19.5% (doesn't KO)
vs. Jolly Life Orb Infernape : 18.8% - 22.2% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/4 Bold Leftovers Blissey : 9% - 10.6% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Quiet Life Orb Rankurusu : 22.6% - 26.7% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Choice Specs Latios : 51% - 60.3% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/128 Bold Porygon2 : 20.3% - 24.1% (doesn't KO)
vs. 244/0 Adamant Occa Berry Metagross : 12.4% - 14.6% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/128 Careful Leftovers Jirachi : 8.2% - 9.7% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Modest Life Orb Ludicolo : 27.2% - 32.5% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/136 Calm Leftovers Tentacruel : 8% - 9.3% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Life Orb Lucario : 19.5% - 23% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Jolly Life Orb Kojondo : 46% - 54.4% (doesn't KO)
vs. 128/0 Adamant Leftovers Machamp : 27.2% - 32% (doesn't KO)
vs. Modest Leftovers Suicune : 10.6% - 12.6% (doesn't KO)
vs. 240/52 Relaxed Leftovers Swampert : 20.9% - 24.9% (doesn't KO)
vs. Naughty Life Orb Venusaur : 61.1% - 72.4% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/68 Bold Leftovers Togekiss : 36.9% - 43.9% (doesn't KO)
vs. 0/4 Timid Leftovers Alakazam : 37.8% - 44.6% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/252 Careful Leftovers Sableye : 26% - 30.6% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Choice Scarf Hihidaruma : 19% - 22.4% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Bold Leftovers Rotom-W : 12.8% - 15.1% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Timid Focus Sash Smeargle : 49.4% - 58.3% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Choice Band Mamoswine : 17.1% - 20.4% (doesn't KO)
vs. Adamant Leftovers Goruggo : 62.7% - 74% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Jolly Life Orb Terakion : 27.8% - 33% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Bold Chansey : 11.2% - 13.4% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Jolly Electivire : 32.9% - 38.7% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Choice Specs Jolteon : 32% - 37.9% (doesn't KO)
vs. Hasty Choice Scarf Abomasnow : 29.9% - 35.2% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Focus Sash Azelf : 38% - 44.9% (doesn't KO)
vs. 192/0 Modest Focus Sash Deoxys-S : 31.1% - 37% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Life Orb Arcanine : 15.5% - 18.3% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Choice Specs Denchura : 44.3% - 52.5% (doesn't KO)
vs. Jolly Life Orb Chirachiino : 43% - 50.9% (doesn't KO)
vs. Adamant Focus Sash Weavile : 17.1% - 19.9% (doesn't KO)
vs. 0/4 Timid Choice Scarf Charizard : 31.6% - 37.7% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Choice Scarf Warubiaru : 66.9% - 78.9% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Life Orb Kabutops : 21% - 24.8% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/120 Bold Leftovers Desukan : 22.2% - 26.3% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Jolly Focus Sash Aerodactyl : 69.5% - 82.1% (possible OHKO with SR)
vs. 252/0 Impish Leftovers Donphan : 65.1% - 77.1% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Life Orb Nidoking : 69.1% - 81.6% (doesn't KO)
vs. Adamant Choice Scarf Staraptor : 92.6% - 109.3% (OHKO with SR)
vs. 12/0 Modest Petaya Berry Empoleon : 6.4% - 7.7% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Life Orb Feraligatr : 15.4% - 18.3% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/56 Impish Leftovers Celebi : 39.1% - 46% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/96 Relaxed Leftovers Bronzong : 10.1% - 11.8% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/4 Bold Leftovers Slowbro : 12.7% - 15% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/100 Bold Leftovers Milotic : 7.9% - 9.4% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Bold Leftovers Latias : 36.8% - 43.4% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Timid Choice Scarf Magnezone : 16% - 18.8% (doesn't KO)
vs. 188/216 Careful Leftovers Snorlax : 5.7% - 6.9% (doesn't KO)
vs. Timid Life Orb Bikutini : 12% - 14.4% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Modest Leftovers Shibirudon : 26.7% - 31.6% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Modest Choice Specs Agirudaa : 41.4% - 49% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Choice Scarf Flygon : 132.5% - 156.3% (OHKO)
vs. 0/4 Timid BrightPowder Froslass : 19.6% - 23.1% (doesn't KO)
vs. 252/0 Adamant Life Orb Hitmontop : 25.3% - 29.9% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Jolly Life Orb Meloetta : 19.9% - 23.4% (doesn't KO)
vs. Hasty Choice Scarf Aianto : 28.8% - 33.9% (doesn't KO)
vs. Naive Life Orb Kyuremu : 25.8% - 30.4% (doesn't KO)
vs. 4/0 Adamant Choice Scarf Heracross : 28.8% - 34.1% (doesn't KO)
[/spoiler]


As well I can go run numbers for all listed above for modest as well if liked to show a pattern of power based on it's ability + Stats it can leave a wake being more then someone might notice.

You mention Regulars yes, but if you look at the point from seeing it constantly and everyone having it....You might start to build anticipating it because it's that centralized. While I hold an outlook that isn't seeing it around and while my rain team deals with it being it's rain, some of my others notably are having more difficultly with it because it's that kind of power


For the example of Scizor, Simply yes Shandy could take a BP....But why risk it? you more then likely have someone else who can deal with scizor such as a Gliscor, go to what is likely to be the best ideal check to see what happens 1st rather than just flat out possible loss of something.

Side note here as well, you mention it's not hard for a skilled player to deal with one, well isn't that also true of OU vs Uber? If you're skilled enough to a degree above the other player you may just beat them on a normal basis much like how NU can beat OU. There is some level that it's not always that way. But that's a little off topic beat.


Mafia:
Pursuit tar...Viable yes, but not the most common tar used, here maybe it is more common due to it having to be because of shandy. But that would mean that having pursuit would make...a centralized part of it having to deal with it. Which begs a look at and possible kick upward.

Rain Teams biggest thing is right here, they stop the fire side of him dead cold and if you don't run a weather your self well it can make it half as well as it should be.

Heatran yes it can be a nice check for it...But why would you bring it in on heatran, and unless you can switch into heatran...It proves as little of a problem.

SR, the 2nd noted thing I mentioned at the start for limitation of it's powers.

Spikes they are like SR but not used as much is the thing.

Weavile, to slow and if you say sash, weather, prior damage etc. Gotta scarf it to be faster.

Set up yes that is the most common thing to do afterward but depending on what is setting up it may not pose a threat to that team. It's a situational one here.

Pursuit Scizor, Goes back to having to run that for...Shandy. Key point being having to run it.

Roar, or WW only works when you have sub up or some kind of sash/sturdy but it's still kinda eh because they break the sub and you give them a random one can work or back fire.

CM, wouldn't bring it out on it unless you knew that could KO at the time as a physical hit would work better on a CM'er no?

Sucker Punchers, Not the most common move and easily spotted to who has the move so easy to watch for.

Aqua Jet...Really? Because no one in their right mind would send it against someone with AJ.

It may be a one trick pony but it can do what it does WELL and leave holes in teams you may have 100% needed other wise you'd lose.

[MasterShaper]

Hmm, another chandelure thread - at least this time the OP included stats instead of ranting aimlessly XD

Seriously, I view chandelure with Shadow Tag very simplistically - if it gets a revenge kill on one of my team members, and that one kill could cost me the match, there are only two real reasons for such an incident:

1 - The revenge-killed pokemon was actually the centerpiece of my team (unlikely, since most teams tend to have more than one sweeper - even if the man sweeper is down, the backup sweepers typically should be able to handle a chandelure. If you tell me that you only have ONE attacker that can hit a ghost or fire pokemon... I pity you if you ever take on Shade, Cal, or Amaria).

2 - I goofed up my team construction severely (if a team is THAT reliant on ONE pokemon to hold its own, there's definitely a problem with it).

Now, chandelure has respectable defenses. Problem is, priority absolutely rapes it if the attacker has STAB and a decent attack stat behind it. Some common examples could be:

- Dugtrio with Sucker Punch (also traps the chandelure).
- Toxicroak with Sucker Punch (with or without rain, works either way).
- Conkeldurr with Payback (I'm iffy on this one, but unless chandelure has Psychic to whack it with, it might survive to strike back).
- Gallade/dusknoir/shedinja with Shadow Sneak (limited usage, but respectable nonetheless).

Even a cacturne, shiftry, or bisharp could rip chandelure a new one (again, they are uncommon, but shiftry seems to be a tad popular in sun teams of late, at least on PO and the PBC. Cacturne has appeared in sand quite a bit, too).

I'm going to assume that most players wouldn't lead with a chandelure unless they somehow knew what their opponent was going to run (read - Shade XD). So it's probably reasonable to assume that by the time chandelure reveals its presence, you'd have seen at least some of its teammates - which obviously makes its escapes a risky affair for the unfortunate soul that gets sent out to take the hit in its place.

One case I recall clearly on this server is that of Titania vs. Saya - Titania's lucario was against Saya's tyranitar with a +2 SAtk boost (Nasty Plot), but hit the tyranitar with a Shadow Ball instead of Aura Sphere (that would have killed the tyranitar). This may have cost Titania the lucario, but her reasons for it were quite clear - she expected the scarfed chandelure to come in and get cozy with Flamethrower/Overheat (can't recall which it had) while the Aura Sphere hit nothing.

Entry hazards aside, switching a pokemon in to protect a chandelure and vice-versa could easily go bad, given that most players are capable of prediction to an extent. Not knowing your opponent's moveset and team works both ways.

ANYWAY. The point I'm trying to make is that maybe, just maybe, there is no need for a counter to chandelure (and from that, no dire need for it to be made uber). OU has enough pokemon in it for chandelure to get consistently beaten, Shadow Tag or not. You could bring in all the calculations and stats you want to, which is fine, but at the end of the day, the numbers only go so far - the human element will ultimately determine the outcome of matches (probability accounts for a significant bit of it also, but that's a topic for another day).

Just my humble opinion - have yourself a good day

[Amethyst]

[quote name='Kimiko' timestamp='1310121112' post='17457']
Well as I said recreation of my post, had to work with what I could remember if you'd like to chime in on exactly what you might like to call a viable definition for a counter then I'll put that instead.

As well while you have given a few examples of things that work around the un-ability to switch, you didn't give counters to it.[/quote]
And how could I without defining it? Although I also don't have a stellar definition myself, it's not my responsibility in this rhetoric to provide one. The burden of proof lies on he who makes the claim, or she in this case.
Moreover, failing to define and defend a definition as such your argument based on the premise of its counters is logically moot.

[quote]he punches large holes in teams that his 5 compadres can easily exploit. That's the key factor of Shandy, I never said it can win one alone that's not it's job, it's job is to make holes and deal with something you may not have been able to take normally.[/quote]
We agree on this much.
[quote]
As well I'll also give it does over centralize things as you have to have X and Y for it, while it's not enough for it alone to banned it does give it cause to look at it heavily.
[/quote]
And so here we are, not banning it and looking at it heavily! But I'm not sure what the purpose of this line is. On one hand you've just conceded your entire aim... On the other hand you're still saying that it over-centralises things... Which is contradictory in itself. The statements that it "over-centralises" and yet "is not enough alone for it to be banned" directly contradict each other if we're going to assume that over-centralisation is cause enough for a ban. Perhaps this simply a grammatical miscommunication though.

[quote]
The biggest check is still rain, but if it takes an entire style of play to beat out one poke that's a bit much.
[/quote]
Rain itself is far from necessary in order to beat Chandelure. All of the water types on my team can actually take a Chandelure very easily, even without rain. Even more, Whimsicott can easily deal with it if it has a sub up when Chandelure comes in, and even if not, assuming Overheat, I still stand a chance, if by the chance of misses, or the special attack drops. Again, that's without rain. Now I know that not every team is going to have four water types. But my point is that just about any decent one is going to be able to break Chandelure, rain or not (maybe not in sun, but that's to be expected.)
Is Chandelure going to run away? Definitely.
In Sharpedo's case, that means getting the first Speed Boost. For Vaporeon and Politoed, Scald could burn whatever comes in- or Vaporeon/Kingdra could set up. It's very easy to predict the switch and turn that into forward momentum. Again, I'm only speaking from experience, and considering the various parts of my team individually, not assuming they're with each other. These are typical water types, and I see little reason that other waters shouldn't be able to handle it as well.

The bulk of your last post is organised data and logical counter-arguments regarding Counters (could the wording get anymore confusing?). However, all of it is largely irrelevant to the main course of discussion until you can connect a lack of counters to necessitating a ban. And that of course, requires an operative definition.

Otherwise, it's just evidence that it's good:
[quote]
It may be a one trick pony but it can do what it does WELL and leave holes in teams you may have 100% needed other wise you'd lose.
[/quote]
Not necessarily ban-worthy.

[Hyouka]

[quote name='MasterShaper' timestamp='1310128393' post='17465']
Entry hazards aside, switching a pokemon in to protect a chandelure and vice-versa could easily go bad, given that most players are capable of prediction to an extent. Not knowing your opponent's moveset and team works both ways.

ANYWAY. The point I'm trying to make is that maybe, just maybe, there is no need for a counter to chandelure (and from that, no dire need for it to be made uber). OU has enough pokemon in it for chandelure to get consistently beaten, Shadow Tag or not. You could bring in all the calculations and stats you want to, which is fine, but at the end of the day, the numbers only go so far - the human element will ultimately determine the outcome of matches (probability accounts for a significant bit of it also, but that's a topic for another day).

Just my humble opinion - have yourself a good day
[/quote]
I think that is all the reason we need for this to stay ou
[s]ThatandIusebulkywithflashfire[/s]

[Bullet]

LolChandelure
Anyways, as the topic in question is Shadow Tag Chandera, the possiblity of other abilities will be dismissed in this post.

Well, first of all, one thing. Chandelure is incredibly simple. Come in, KO, switch out. ANY assumptions that the fact that you can bring in a Pokemon to resist its chosen move after it gets a kill, and thus it is not Uber worthy, is incredibly silly. The point is, Chandlure can repeatedly switch in, kill certain Pokemon, and you can't do anything about it. The number of Pokemon that can truly kill it reliably are incredibly slim. Pursuit users, Dugtrio, and uhhh. That's it, really. The fact of the matter is, a Chandelure user has 5 other Pokemon. You can't expect them to just sacrifice Chandelure with the logic that "oh it killed something, it has done its job thus I can let it die". The sole reason it should even be considered for Ubers, is that it [i]doesn't[/i] just kill one Pokemon, it kills, switches out, and kills more later. That's the entire point, what can you do to prevent this? Well, hazards play quite the role. Being a Fire type, Chandelure will take a whopping 25% upon entry if Stealth Rock is up. Spikes, Toxic, Sandstorm, etc. can further weather it down. But, you [i]can't[/i] expect to have hazards up consistently. The fact of the matter is, what can you do about it? Pursuit Tyranitar is undoubtedly a superb option for killing it, but I wholly understand some people just don't want to use certain Pokemon for the sake of one Pokemon. So, what warrants banning? Overcentralization. If the majority of teams need to build accordingly for the sake of one particular Pokemon, then that's a clear signal for banning. Course, there's the problem with banning, we're [i]humans[/i]. No matter the result, there will be those who agree and those who disagree. It's simply [i]impossible[/i] to satisfy both groups. So we can only decide to the best of our judgment, because there is no "correct" answer. Anyways, back to my argument. Well, what defines overcentralization? It's fairly obvious that my example of the majority of teams adding counters is quite the exxageration; if such was true, we wouldn't be having such a discussion. Looking at the Reborn usage staistics, Chandelure is #9 in usage. But does that tell us anything? No. Reborn statistics hardly define the literal metagame of Reborn, the fact is Unrated battles simply would be more accurate. That's the reason Smogon statistics work, the ladder [i]is[/i] the metagame. But here, it's anything but. So what am i trying to say? Well, I'm solidifying my argument that you [i]can't[/i] be sure, ever. As mentioned prior, there is no correct decision. You [i]can't[/i] see if there's truly overcentralization to push for a ban, Reborn tiers are pretty much theorymon I'll admit. With that said, I'll be neutral for the time being.

[Geo]

Now I'm going to be an smart ass/asshole here abit. Shandera is annoying with Shadowfag, I personally think its OU without it and uber with it. This Disscussion is just going back and forward like PO, PBC and Mysidia's. Why can't we just seperate the real Shandy from its dream world fake, Infact this why Wifi and Dream world exist as tiers to seperate Shandera and other illegal dream abilities + Unreleased pokemon for the time being. This is like the 3rd disccussion that had something to do with this thing, everyone keep implying ban when scripts can always be edit to seperate, remove or add since PO is a simulator. If your haunting Official gameplay and not babyfied Tiers you can always go on other servers.



Ban! Ban!? BAN!!!! "who look she trying to get it ban" Infact who said anything about banning to make you think that she's trying to get it ban, only "you" dats all kthnxbye keep the "we" "us" and the "community" bullshit to yourself and the peers who support you. Its just the simple explaination of why Shadowtag is gay and why its annoying.
With a shit ton of numbers @.@. Infact I like Bullet explanation abit better and glad we can agree on the tiers here.

Anyway, If I was a mod I would just close this topic cause it's just going to go back and foward constantly and especially since tis is Reborn where nothing change no matter how much proof you have or argue a vaild point.

[Neo]

[color="#9932CC"]The point really is, why are we even egging this on when someone who isn't a regular complaining. Seriously the tiers are set, and we are comfortable if you don't like them the exit button is at the corner of your screen.[/color]

[Bullet]

The metagame changes. People discover new sets. Specific Pokemon see an increase in usage. There's no such thing as tiers being "set". They are and always will be imperfect; our goal in modifying tiers is to make them as close to perfect as possible. It doesn't matter whether someone is a "regular" or not, anyone can give their input if they feel like it, and if [i]you[/i] don't like their input, don't reply.

[Neo]

[color="#9932CC"]The thing is no one has had an issue with Chandy not being banned up until now. Have you ever considered that the reason no one complains is because we have all learned to deal with it. We've all figured out how to make it so Chandy isn't too big of an issue. Now to stop everything, and actually consider banning the thing because one person complains is ridiculous. [/color]