Some theories I've made

[PartyCover]

I've made quite a few theories on the Pokemon Rejuvenation subreddit, unfortunately my account has been suspended from the site with no reason provided. That's life I'm afraid. (I'm guessing someone with the same IP or similar broke some reddit rules)

I compiled much of what I've made if anyone wants to read over them and some of the timelines I've made.

 

General Theories I've made.docx

 

Also available at: https://filebin.net/ha9fymn40yreww7g

 

I do love the Rejuvenation subreddit, so if I make another account, I probably won't reveal it to everyone but a few because of how easy it'd be for someone to report it.

Edited May 27 by PartyCover
Accesibility

[KrisTimelineGuy]

Makes no sense why you were kicked off Reddit. Their enforcement need some work to put it mildly. So someone broke rules from your IP? Unfortunately (from an enforcement perspective), a lot of IPs for end users are dynamic. But maybe they could have looked into that before throwing you (and another cool person) off the site.

 

Here's hoping your account will be restored, so we can have you back on the sub.

[dudeguyman]

Ugh, why docx instead of md.tar.gz!? I had to install Libreoffice just to read the thing: you can't just `cat | less` that thing! Anyway, back to topic:

(It's a thread about theories, all of the following is 13.5 spoiler, duh)

Yes, if we have to take the evidence at face value, most likely Vitus is the one who is hunting the envoys. I wouldn't say it's definitive, for several reasons:

- "#####" matches "Vitus" instead of "Indriad": iirc, "Vitus" is his family man persona and "Indriad" is the Yveltal host, and there are plenty of 5-letters names, especially within the Theolias ("Maria", "Melia", "Alice", "Allen"), which could all have access to Yveltal, add time interdenominational traveling shenanigans and it could really be any Theolia.
- We have no strong reason to believe that who killed Taelia and Nora is also the one who's hunting envoys in general.
- Nymiera and Admin might simply trying to make you believe it's Vitus: if it was him, what was the point of censoring the document? You already know who Vitus is and that he's never up to something good. I wouldn't put it past them, because they both have an history of being manipulative.
- It's definitely not as simple as "Vitus, who wants to bring death, is killing all the envoys, who want protect life": we know for a fact that Nymiera, who is supposed to be the one promoting life, has strategically lead people to their death.
- I have a feeling that Vitus being the one hunting the envoys is just too straightforward and in your face.

For Anju, we know for a fact that she was kidnapped by Vitus and he did something to her: it's what shown to us in the Terajuma arc, and it's further reinforced by what happened to Alice during Karma Files. What we don't know for certain is if the Anju in Chapter 3 is the same as the main story's Anju: it could be either way. I don't think we have definitive evidence that Karma erased Adrest, if anything, aren't we told that Karma can't really interfere inside the Zeight by the documents left by Adrest? It might have very well been Variya or someone else at that tier of power.

For interceptors, Madam X is most likely a Theolia rather than an interceptor, because Yveltal. Spacea and Tiema were interceptors, keyword were, they're no longer after ascending, not that it really matters now. Vitus and Nymiera are not interceptors, they are different things entirely. An Interceptor is just someone with free will, it's someone who has a very specific set of traits, so not every (demi-)god in Rejuv is an interceptor, even if they have free will, for example we know for a fact that Melia is not an interceptor: she lacks at least one of the Interceptor Perks, that being native access to the Zeight, it has been granted to her by the MC. And regarding the chess game, it happens before the timeline split, and happens in the same way regardless of your karma and renegade points, in other words, it's a bit naive to conclude that the MC is a piece in the white board but not in the black, they might be a piece in both, or neither.

[PartyCover]

3 hours ago, dudeguyman said:

Ugh, why docx instead of md.tar.gz!? I had to install Libreoffice just to read the thing: you can't just `cat | less` that thing! Anyway, back to topic:

(It's a thread about theories, all of the following is 13.5 spoiler, duh)

Yes, if we have to take the evidence at face value, most likely Vitus is the one who is hunting the envoys. I wouldn't say it's definitive, for several reasons:

- "#####" matches "Vitus" instead of "Indriad": iirc, "Vitus" is his family man persona and "Indriad" is the Yveltal host, and there are plenty of 5-letters names, especially within the Theolias ("Maria", "Melia", "Alice", "Allen"), which could all have access to Yveltal, add time interdenominational traveling shenanigans and it could really be any Theolia.
- We have no strong reason to believe that who killed Taelia and Nora is also the one who's hunting envoys in general.
- Nymiera and Admin might simply trying to make you believe it's Vitus: if it was him, what was the point of censoring the document? You already know who Vitus is and that he's never up to something good. I wouldn't put it past them, because they both have an history of being manipulative.
- It's definitely not as simple as "Vitus, who wants to bring death, is killing all the envoys, who want protect life": we know for a fact that Nymiera, who is supposed to be the one promoting life, has strategically lead people to their death.
- I have a feeling that Vitus being the one hunting the envoys is just too straightforward and in your face.

For Anju, we know for a fact that she was kidnapped by Vitus and he did something to her: it's what shown to us in the Terajuma arc, and it's further reinforced by what happened to Alice during Karma Files. What we don't know for certain is if the Anju in Chapter 3 is the same as the main story's Anju: it could be either way. I don't think we have definitive evidence that Karma erased Adrest, if anything, aren't we told that Karma can't really interfere inside the Zeight by the documents left by Adrest? It might have very well been Variya or someone else at that tier of power.

For interceptors, Madam X is most likely a Theolia rather than an interceptor, because Yveltal. Spacea and Tiema were interceptors, keyword were, they're no longer after ascending, not that it really matters now. Vitus and Nymiera are not interceptors, they are different things entirely. An Interceptor is just someone with free will, it's someone who has a very specific set of traits, so not every (demi-)god in Rejuv is an interceptor, even if they have free will, for example we know for a fact that Melia is not an interceptor: she lacks at least one of the Interceptor Perks, that being native access to the Zeight, it has been granted to her by the MC. And regarding the chess game, it happens before the timeline split, and happens in the same way regardless of your karma and renegade points, in other words, it's a bit naive to conclude that the MC is a piece in the white board but not in the black, they might be a piece in both, or neither.

 

I don't think you've read the document properly.

 

Quote

- "#####" matches "Vitus" instead of "Indriad": iirc, "Vitus" is his family man persona and "Indriad" is the Yveltal host, and there are plenty of 5-letters names, especially within the Theolias ("Maria", "Melia", "Alice", "Allen"), which could all have access to Yveltal, add time interdenominational traveling shenanigans and it could really be any Theolia.

- Firstly, whoever is "hunting" the Envoys, needs a motive. There's no reason whatsoever any of the Theolia's would actively hunt the Envoys, there's absolutely nothing there which benefits them (that we know of atleast). It'd be far too out of character too, given they're generally good hearted people. Unless Rejuvenation pulls a really weird "HAHA I WAS EVIL ALL ALONG" move, this ship isn't sailing, especially now that we have some more emotional moments with the trio. The only other logical option here would be Clear or Madame X.

- Next we have Nymiera's quote to the young Vivian. "Your hardships wont end here. There are people on the surface who know about the envoys. The moment you steep foot out this protected chamber -- You will be hunted". 

- We also know from the book one of the Envoys died at "Age 41" before being hunted. If it were a Time Traveller why not kill them as soon as you get the chance, you'd have a ridiculous amount of chances so realistically they shouldn't be able to live that long.

- In fact, with Time travel you could realistically keep rewinding and find the sanctuary, and come up with some way to destroy the terminal entirely.

- Likewise another Envoy died from Natural causes. If anyone else is hunting the Envoys and they're using time travel, they would have been able to go back in time if they missed killing them the first time. To add to this even more assuming they could time travel this mean they could would have plenty of chances to identify who the Envoy is in advance and where they were located, allowing them to hence go back in time and swiftly execute them. Hunting them wouldn't be an issue. This would strongly imply keeping that Envoy alive was an intentional choice, or there wasn't a reason to kill them, strength of the Envoy wouldn't be an issue, as you'd be able to travel back to their weakest points. Likewise each Envoy is stronger than the last, so if you can kill the Envoys who are stronger, why not this one?
 

I think it's far more likely that somebody who is timeless, like Vitus, is hunting the Envoys. This would explain the differences in the ages of deaths, and why not all the Envoy's were killed. Vitus is BY FAR the most logical reason.

 

Quote

- We have no strong reason to believe that who killed Taelia and Nora is also the one who's hunting envoys in general.

 

- Though we know this person has an Yveltal.

- We also know this person has male pronouns, per Clear's dialogue and isn't affiliated with her.

- I don't know about you but this screams Vitus, the only person who could have access to Yveltal (being the host of it), and has a valid motive to kill "the maiden of Recarnation", after Storm-9 was reduced drastically due to Vivian's sacrifice. We also know Vitus is active at this time.

- As a further bit of evidence, the Radio Taelia Karate Chops in half says "We're coming for you next babe! Watch out Taelia" with Sirius being the speaker at that time. Sure we know that was an illusion set by Clear, but I see it as a slight nod to that

 

Quote

- Nymiera and Admin might simply trying to make you believe it's Vitus: if it was him, what was the point of censoring the document? You already know who Vitus is and that he's never up to something good. I wouldn't put it past them, because they both have an history of being manipulative.

- It's definitely not as simple as "Vitus, who wants to bring death, is killing all the envoys, who want protect life": we know for a fact that Nymiera, who is supposed to be the one promoting life, has strategically lead people to their death.

- I wouldn't put it past Nymiera and Admin to do so, but I don't see this happening. Firstly, if they wanted to make us "believe" it'd be far easier to simply put Vitus's name down, rather than risking the player incorrectly assuming it's somebody else, or not bother figuring out who it is at all. Secondly, we're not even sure Nymiera is aware we've seen Vitus other than in Hiyoshi. I don't even think Vitus's name was mentioned whilst the Player and her were in the same room.
- Nymiera is DEFINITELY fighting for peace, I don't think there's any denying that, though she believes in a more "One sacrifice for the Million" kind of thing, so I'm not sure what you're trying to reason in that sentence.

- Admin's quote was in it's exact form "Death itself is the natural enemy of the Envoys. A being who seeks death grows weary at one trying to prevent it." and this is in response to "Who is hunting the Envoys". This also supports my previous point. Why not just say it was Vitus if Nymiera and Admin wanted to make the player believe it was him? Why risk the possibility the player makes an incorrect assumption?

- As for your point on it not being "that simple", I very much think it is. To express things with an analogy, suppose your playing a game of basketball, wouldn't it be very reasonable for someone who's indifferent to death as Vitus is, to simply kill the other players who are working to prevent you from winning.

 

Quote

- I have a feeling that Vitus being the one hunting the envoys is just too straightforward and in your face.

- Not really? You need to piece some things together to make that deduction. If anything you can argue the same with Madame X, Clear or anyone else who can time travel. Not everything has to be so complicated either.

 

Quote

For Anju, we know for a fact that she was kidnapped by Vitus and he did something to her: it's what shown to us in the Terajuma arc, and it's further reinforced by what happened to Alice during Karma Files. What we don't know for certain is if the Anju in Chapter 3 is the same as the main story's Anju: it could be either way. I don't think we have definitive evidence that Karma erased Adrest, if anything, aren't we told that Karma can't really interfere inside the Zeight by the documents left by Adrest? It might have very well been Variya or someone else at that tier of power.

- I agree with the point on Anju, I think I clarified the possibility Ch3 is indeed a different dimension. As for Karma erasing Adrest, I don't recall that dialogue about not interfering with Zeight? I think you're confusing this with Karma not being able to decide the Interceptors fate but having the ability to "manipulate and guide" the Interceptor. Karma is the obvious canditate to me for erasing Adrest, the little laugh plays the moment the scene changes after all. The eyes are everywhere, black or white depending on the route and the number of characters matches up. It could be someone else but I have doubts.

 

4 hours ago, dudeguyman said:

For interceptors, Madam X is most likely a Theolia rather than an interceptor, because Yveltal. Spacea and Tiema were interceptors, keyword were, they're no longer after ascending, not that it really matters now. Vitus and Nymiera are not interceptors, they are different things entirely. An Interceptor is just someone with free will, it's someone who has a very specific set of traits, so not every (demi-)god in Rejuv is an interceptor, even if they have free will, for example we know for a fact that Melia is not an interceptor: she lacks at least one of the Interceptor Perks, that being native access to the Zeight, it has been granted to her by the MC. And regarding the chess game, it happens before the timeline split, and happens in the same way regardless of your karma and renegade points, in other words, it's a bit naive to conclude that the MC is a piece in the white board but not in the black, they might be a piece in both, or neither.

 

- "because Yveltal"?, I'm not sure what you mean by that, but considering how the map she communicates to us in after the Kugearen Explosion is titled "Zeight". If she were bound by fate, Karma (unless it has limitations), could simply nerf her to oblivion, and she is implied to be the "Interloper" and escaped to our timeline. I'm willing to bet she isn't bound by Karma. There's probably more in that document.
- As for Spacea and Tiempa, it depends on how you intepret "Ascend", for all we know when they said "were interceptors", they meant the typical person who intercepts fate, choosing either good and evil and then "ascended" to become one which solely interferes for "good".

- I get the impression you didn't read what I wrote about this. It's a bit naive to just read off from the list and reply "they're different things entirely" without looking at any of the reasoning

- "An Interceptor is just someone with free will, it's someone who has a very specific set of traits, so not every (demi-)god in Rejuv is an interceptor, even if they have free will, for example we know for a fact that Melia is not an interceptor: she lacks at least one of the Interceptor Perks, that being native access to the Zeight, it has been granted to her by the MC." I know???? You do realise I split things into orders of modality right? Furthermore Interceptor != Native Access to Zeight. V is an interceptor but she wasn't made one by Variya, she became one when she "entered into this world". She either became one at birth since there were no present interceptors and Karma is required to have one, or is literally not from that world, which I guess would support the Cosmog we see. If you aren't actually from the world, I don't see why you'd have access to Zeight.

- "it's a bit naive to conclude that the MC is a piece in the white board but not in the black, they might be a piece in both, or neither." That would suggest the MC would be fighting against themself, or it would suggest that the MC isn't fighting anything, both of which don't seem very logical. You're also failing to take into account the fact that the MC defaults to Paragon even if they satisfy the Bad Ending Points threshold needed for Renegade, UNLESS they make a concious decision to side with Kieran and Clear, it'd make sense for them to be on that side of the board. TO add even further, the New World Chessboard was created with the Puppet Master's understanding of the world, she doesn't know we would be choosing a path of destruction, she'd clearly have tried to stop us if she did. You're also thinking of this as if it way too literally. There's nothing stopping pieces from switching sides.

[dudeguyman]

18 hours ago, PartyCover said:

- Firstly, whoever is "hunting" the Envoys, needs a motive. There's no reason whatsoever any of the Theolia's would actively hunt the Envoys, there's absolutely nothing there which benefits them (that we know of atleast). It'd be far too out of character too, given they're generally good hearted people. Unless Rejuvenation pulls a really weird "HAHA I WAS EVIL ALL ALONG" move, this ship isn't sailing, especially now that we have some more emotional moments with the trio. The only other logical option here would be Clear or Madame X.

Have you played Renegade? M2 is literally evil Melia from a parallel timeline, Melanie from the Doomed Timeline is also another evil Melia from a parallel timeline. Who can say there's not an E2 or an A2 or an M2 bis around? And Madam X also has an Yveltal she calls "Father", just like Melanie.

 

18 hours ago, PartyCover said:

- We also know from the book one of the Envoys died at "Age 41" before being hunted. If it were a Time Traveller why not kill them as soon as you get the chance, you'd have a ridiculous amount of chances so realistically they shouldn't be able to live that long.

- In fact, with Time travel you could realistically keep rewinding and find the sanctuary, and come up with some way to destroy the terminal entirely.

- Likewise another Envoy died from Natural causes. If anyone else is hunting the Envoys and they're using time travel, they would have been able to go back in time if they missed killing them the first time. To add to this even more assuming they could time travel this mean they could would have plenty of chances to identify who the Envoy is in advance and where they were located, allowing them to hence go back in time and swiftly execute them. Hunting them wouldn't be an issue. This would strongly imply keeping that Envoy alive was an intentional choice, or there wasn't a reason to kill them, strength of the Envoy wouldn't be an issue, as you'd be able to travel back to their weakest points. Likewise each Envoy is stronger than the last, so if you can kill the Envoys who are stronger, why not this one?

MC and Melia are also time travelers, why can't they just save Vivian, then? Because you can't go around saving/killing random people at random times and expect the timeline to go the way you need to, the same reason applies to both who fights for the future and who fights for oblivion. Also, just like Nymiera, Indriad has existed since the dawn of the world, at some point he must have had enough free time to figure out where the envoys come from.

 

18 hours ago, PartyCover said:

- Though we know this person has an Yveltal.

- We also know this person has male pronouns, per Clear's dialogue and isn't affiliated with her.

- I don't know about you but this screams Vitus, the only person who could have access to Yveltal (being the host of it), and has a valid motive to kill "the maiden of Recarnation", after Storm-9 was reduced drastically due to Vivian's sacrifice. We also know Vitus is active at this time.

- As a further bit of evidence, the Radio Taelia Karate Chops in half says "We're coming for you next babe! Watch out Taelia" with Sirius being the speaker at that time. Sure we know that was an illusion set by Clear, but I see it as a slight nod to that

Assuming you're correct and Vitus did in fact kill Taelia and Nora, he got the wrong target. How is someone capable of making a pocket dimension on a whim also not capable of finding a way to figure out which of two people is an envoy if he spent a good chunk of his life fighting them? How did it not occur to him to wait a couple minutes to confirm the kill, knowing that if he got the wrong target he'd instantly reincarnate? Why didn't he come back to finish the job as soon as he got the news that Kenneth somehow still has a daughter or Nora's age? How much can we even trust Kenneth's memory of the whole thing, since Clear didn't even bother showing her hand on Taelia's final words? That just doesn't add up. The only real conclusion is that, whoever raided Kenneth didn't do it with the goal of killing Taelia, but with the one of Aelita to be born.

 

 

18 hours ago, PartyCover said:

- As a further bit of evidence, the Radio Taelia Karate Chops in half says "We're coming for you next babe! Watch out Taelia" with Sirius being the speaker at that time. Sure we know that was an illusion set by Clear, but I see it as a slight nod to that

It's Clear we're talking about, deception and acting are her thing. "Sirious" doesn't have to mean literally Vitus the guy, it can be literally Yveltal but controlled by someone else, or it can be just a figure for death.

 

18 hours ago, PartyCover said:

- I wouldn't put it past Nymiera and Admin to do so, but I don't see this happening. Firstly, if they wanted to make us "believe" it'd be far easier to simply put Vitus's name down, rather than risking the player incorrectly assuming it's somebody else, or not bother figuring out who it is at all. Secondly, we're not even sure Nymiera is aware we've seen Vitus other than in Hiyoshi. I don't even think Vitus's name was mentioned whilst the Player and her were in the same room.

- Admin's quote was in it's exact form "Death itself is the natural enemy of the Envoys. A being who seeks death grows weary at one trying to prevent it." and this is in response to "Who is hunting the Envoys". This also supports my previous point. Why not just say it was Vitus if Nymiera and Admin wanted to make the player believe it was him? Why risk the possibility the player makes an incorrect assumption?

Giving you cherry picked and manipulated evidence so that you "get to" the predetermined conclusion is something sociopaths do all the time. If they were being genuine, they could have simply not censored the name, yet they went out of their way to do it. Conveniently forgetting to mention a name is still negligence, but censoring out of records is active sabotage. If they're not sure if MC knows who VItus is, that's one more reason to actually say the damn name. Also, what Nymiera definitely knows is that MC is well acquainted with some people who are named "Theolia", it's completely unreasonable for them to at last not expect the MC to at least have hared that name in passing.

 

18 hours ago, PartyCover said:

- Nymiera is DEFINITELY fighting for peace, I don't think there's any denying that, though she believes in a more "One sacrifice for the Million" kind of thing, so I'm not sure what you're trying to reason in that sentence.

Nymiera, as the host of Xerneas, is fighting for life, not peace. Even in the official Pokémon games both life and death led to the Ultimate Weapon, just in different timelines.

 

18 hours ago, PartyCover said:

- As for your point on it not being "that simple", I very much think it is. To express things with an analogy, suppose your playing a game of basketball, wouldn't it be very reasonable for someone who's indifferent to death as Vitus is, to simply kill the other players who are working to prevent you from winning.

- Not really? You need to piece some things together to make that deduction. If anything you can argue the same with Madame X, Clear or anyone else who can time travel. Not everything has to be so complicated either.

No, it's not that simple: if you want to win a game of basketball and you're indifferent to killing, you still won't kill your opponents because there would no longer be a basketball game to win. What is simple is a two pieces jigsaw puzzle, eerily simple.

 

18 hours ago, PartyCover said:

- "because Yveltal"?, I'm not sure what you mean by that, but considering how the map she communicates to us in after the Kugearen Explosion is titled "Zeight". If she were bound by fate, Karma (unless it has limitations), could simply nerf her to oblivion, and she is implied to be the "Interloper" and escaped to our timeline. I'm willing to bet she isn't bound by Karma. There's probably more in that document.

Madam X calls her Yveltal "fahter", just like Melanie. If Madam X is not a Theolia, it has to be a red herring, not by Madam X, who has an history of being genuine as long as she's not in the middle to a fight to the dead, however cryptic her words may be at times, but directly from the writers. Let's say Madam X is an interceptor, but Karma needs Team Xen to not be a thing. Karma can simply manipulate the people around Madam X so that there's never a Nastasia, there's never a Geara, there's never a Neved, there's never a Zetta, and there are no grunts, there would simply not be a Team Xen. What does it mean? That Team Xen either exists because Karma needs it to, or because a force that's at least Karma's equal does, something like Variya or the World Shatterer, an singular interceptor can't do it.

 

18 hours ago, PartyCover said:

- As for Spacea and Tiempa, it depends on how you intepret "Ascend", for all we know when they said "were interceptors", they meant the typical person who intercepts fate, choosing either good and evil and then "ascended" to become one which solely interferes for "good".

They literally say that their role is to follow the will of the Interceptor, in a dialog between in other, they fight the MC only because MC tries to kill them.

 

18 hours ago, PartyCover said:

- I get the impression you didn't read what I wrote about this. It's a bit naive to just read off from the list and reply "they're different things entirely" without looking at any of the reasoning

I did read it, and it really feels like the reasoning is "big character, must be an Interceptor", if there's more it was well hidden.

 

18 hours ago, PartyCover said:

- "An Interceptor is just someone with free will, it's someone who has a very specific set of traits, so not every (demi-)god in Rejuv is an interceptor, even if they have free will, for example we know for a fact that Melia is not an interceptor: she lacks at least one of the Interceptor Perks, that being native access to the Zeight, it has been granted to her by the MC." I know???? You do realise I split things into orders of modality right? Furthermore Interceptor != Native Access to Zeight. V is an interceptor but she wasn't made one by Variya, she became one when she "entered into this world". She either became one at birth since there were no present interceptors and Karma is required to have one, or is literally not from that world, which I guess would support the Cosmog we see. If you aren't actually from the world, I don't see why you'd have access to Zeight.

Native access to the Zeight is inherent to the interceptor, period. It doesn't matter if you're an interceptor from another timeline, because the Zeight connects all of them, otherwise it couldn't allow interceptor to access the data of parallel versions of themselves, and it doesn't matter if you became an interceptor by means other than a contract with Variya, you still get the entirety of the Interceptor Perks, which are accessed via the Zeight. I agree that native access to the Zeight isn't the same as being an interceptor: there are entities other than interceptors which also have native access to the Zeight, especially very high up in the deity food chain. Just because we don't witness V, Clear, and Kieran interact with the Zeight, it doesn't mean it never happened or that it couldn't happen.

 

18 hours ago, PartyCover said:

- "it's a bit naive to conclude that the MC is a piece in the white board but not in the black, they might be a piece in both, or neither." That would suggest the MC would be fighting against themself, or it would suggest that the MC isn't fighting anything, both of which don't seem very logical. You're also failing to take into account the fact that the MC defaults to Paragon even if they satisfy the Bad Ending Points threshold needed for Renegade, UNLESS they make a concious decision to side with Kieran and Clear, it'd make sense for them to be on that side of the board. TO add even further, the New World Chessboard was created with the Puppet Master's understanding of the world, she doesn't know we would be choosing a path of destruction, she'd clearly have tried to stop us if she did. You're also thinking of this as if it way too literally. There's nothing stopping pieces from switching sides.

We do not know the extent the everything the Puppet Master knows of, but part of it is that the world has been reset by the MC, possibly countless times (Zetta asks you questions that you'll only learn the answer of in later chapters to verify MC is the true, true, doubly true interceptor), and it's common sense that if you're stuck in a time loop you'll eventually try everything, even siding with your enemies. "The cycle will be broken", given this context, can very easily refer to the time loop, and thus Renegade MC. MC is playing on both side because the win condition, for the MC, is not to beat a side, it's to produce the board state that will exit the time loop.

[PartyCover]

4 hours ago, dudeguyman said:

Have you played Renegade? M2 is literally evil Melia from a parallel timeline, Melanie from the Doomed Timeline is also another evil Melia from a parallel timeline. Who can say there's not an E2 or an A2 or an M2 bis around? And Madam X also has an Yveltal she calls "Father", just like Melanie.

 

Firstly, it obviously can't be Erin since she has female pronouns, Allen is realistically the only canditate, she says "Father, I have lost" but that doesn't neccesarily mean she meant the Yveltal. She didn't even have to refer to anyone in the room, it could be a "Mum I'm sorry" trope before someone shoots themselves. As for another "evil version" running around introducing new characters this late into the game seems incredibly unlikely.

 

4 hours ago, dudeguyman said:

MC and Melia are also time travelers, why can't they just save Vivian, then? Because you can't go around saving/killing random people at random times and expect the timeline to go the way you need to, the same reason applies to both who fights for the future and who fights for oblivion. Also, just like Nymiera, Indriad has existed since the dawn of the world, at some point he must have had enough free time to figure out where the envoys come from.

 

 

Not sure what the first sentence is suppose to say, if anything the butterfly effects with killling Envoys in the past and the potential for their future to be wiped too (unless they had amulets or something) only reinforces my point. As for "Indriad has existed since the dawn of the world, at some point he must have had enough free time to figure out where the envoys come from.". Given one only shows up every hundred years, and the Great Pokemon War occured 3000 years ago, ATLEAST 30 Envoys have showed up, that's ATLEAST 30 chances. Thats a lot less then any time traveller would have, a time traveler that could have foresight as I mentioned too.

4 hours ago, dudeguyman said:

Assuming you're correct and Vitus did in fact kill Taelia and Nora, he got the wrong target. How is someone capable of making a pocket dimension on a whim also not capable of finding a way to figure out which of two people is an envoy if he spent a good chunk of his life fighting them? How did it not occur to him to wait a couple minutes to confirm the kill, knowing that if he got the wrong target he'd instantly reincarnate? Why didn't he come back to finish the job as soon as he got the news that Kenneth somehow still has a daughter or Nora's age? How much can we even trust Kenneth's memory of the whole thing, since Clear didn't even bother showing her hand on Taelia's final words? That just doesn't add up. The only real conclusion is that, whoever raided Kenneth didn't do it with the goal of killing Taelia, but with the one of Aelita to be born.

 

How is someone as Eternal as Nymiera, that many people would probably help, incapable of finding out a way to defeat Vitus? How is someone as Eternal as Vitus, not able to account for the possibility the Kugearen Bomb would be intercepted? How is someone as Eternal as Vitus, incapable of simply creating another one? Let's assume it was some "evil time-travelling Theolia" like you've imagined, why couldn't they just rewind time or use the Archetype to identify them. Why not use Yveltal do absorb them both like Vitus failed to do.

As for why he didn't "finish the Job", given Vitus hasn't been seen in his own body for years, perhaps he couldn.t

As for how can we trust Kenneth's memory, whilst the story is shown from the perspective of Kenneth and we do see his illusions, we see the point Clear rewinded time too, the illusion voice from the Radio Kenneth didn't hear.

 

4 hours ago, dudeguyman said:

It's Clear we're talking about, deception and acting are her thing. "Sirious" doesn't have to mean literally Vitus the guy, it can be literally Yveltal but controlled by someone else, or it can be just a figure for death.

 

Finish the Dufaux quest. Sirius is Vitus. Period. As for the point in general, I did say it was weak evidence.

 

4 hours ago, dudeguyman said:

Giving you cherry picked and manipulated evidence so that you "get to" the predetermined conclusion is something sociopaths do all the time. If they were being genuine, they could have simply not censored the name, yet they went out of their way to do it. Conveniently forgetting to mention a name is still negligence, but censoring out of records is active sabotage. If they're not sure if MC knows who VItus is, that's one more reason to actually say the damn name. Also, what Nymiera definitely knows is that MC is well acquainted with some people who are named "Theolia", it's completely unreasonable for them to at last not expect the MC to at least have hared that name in passing.

 

I had a feeling you'd start insulting me sooner or later, all over what, because someone over the internet you've never met disagrees with you about a Pokemon Game? Didn't I even go ahead to aknowledge that there was still a possibility it was a time traveller, but it'd be way to complicated? And please, go right ahead and point out my "manipulated evidence" I'd love to see it. This just seems like a sad attempt at Ad Hominem. If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it.

 

"That's one more reason to say the damn name". Exactly, so if they really did want to trick the Interceptor (like you said), why not just give another name entirely? Why bother risking the possibility of them making a mistake?

 

"Also, what Nymiera definitely knows is that MC is well acquainted with some people who are named "Theolia", it's completely unreasonable for them to at last not expect the MC to at least have hared that name in passing." The only person who I can possibly think of with the last name "Theolia" that Nymiera mentioned is Maria, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think she was mentioned. Likewise that's a LAST NAME, there's no evidence I'm aware of supporting the possibility Nymiera knows the MC is aware of Vitus being a Theolia, nor that the MC knows who the rest of the people who share "Theolia" as a last name are.

4 hours ago, dudeguyman said:

Nymiera, as the host of Xerneas, is fighting for life, not peace. Even in the official Pokémon games both life and death led to the Ultimate Weapon, just in different timelines.

 

Guess what maximises life? Peace. Guess what Nymiera's wish was when she used the Archetype all those years ago? For Peace. Guess what "I thought you settled down" and Nymiera's whole monologue implies she's fighting for. Peace.
 

4 hours ago, dudeguyman said:

No, it's not that simple: if you want to win a game of basketball and you're indifferent to killing, you still won't kill your opponents because there would no longer be a basketball game to win.

 

That's not the point, that analogy is purely expressive. Besides, the rules of basketball don't apply here. The whole idea is there are teams (not neccesarily two) and an objective, killing your opponents is far easier than avoiding them and making strategies to deal with the.

4 hours ago, dudeguyman said:

What is simple is a two pieces jigsaw puzzle, eerily simple.

Like I said, not everything in this game has to be so complicated. Just like how Rune, the mysterious missing girl, turned out to be the puppet master. Or how Neved hated Kenneth simply because of a comment Keta said criticising his own life choices and Neved's.

 

4 hours ago, dudeguyman said:

Madam X calls her Yveltal "fahter", just like Melanie. If Madam X is not a Theolia, it has to be a red herring, not by Madam X, who has an history of being genuine as long as she's not in the middle to a fight to the dead, however cryptic her words may be at times, but directly from the writers.

 

See the previous point about "Father"

I'm not sure why your now bringing up "a history of being [so and so]" when your contesting Nymiera's history of fighting for peace.

4 hours ago, dudeguyman said:

Let's say Madam X is an interceptor, but Karma needs Team Xen to not be a thing. Karma can simply manipulate the people around Madam X so that there's never a Nastasia, there's never a Geara, there's never a Neved, there's never a Zetta, and there are no grunts, there would simply not be a Team Xen. What does it mean? That Team Xen either exists because Karma needs it to, or because a force that's at least Karma's equal does, something like Variya or the World Shatterer, an singular interceptor can't do it.

It's debatable whether or not Karma can see the future. Given they would have been able to realise, for instance, the attempt to kill Renegade MC with Karma Beast Talon failed. Your also failing to take into the account the fact the "Interceptor Effect" could be true. I mean can you think of why it can't be true? Even if I'm pretty sure Madame X, Clear and Kieran, along with someone else are all represented by Interceptor Pieces on the New Game Chessboard

 

4 hours ago, dudeguyman said:

They literally say that their role is to follow the will of the Interceptor, in a dialog between in other, they fight the MC only because MC tries to kill them.

 

And they also serve to fufill "her magesty" Variya's wishes. 

 

4 hours ago, dudeguyman said:

I did read it, and it really feels like the reasoning is "big character, must be an Interceptor", if there's more it was well hidden.

 

 

I think I made it pretty plain what my reasoning was, I feel like much of your reasoning is "Too simple, must be something else".

 

4 hours ago, dudeguyman said:

Native access to the Zeight is inherent to the interceptor, period. It doesn't matter if you're an interceptor from another timeline, because the Zeight connects all of them, otherwise it couldn't allow interceptor to access the data of parallel versions of themselves, and it doesn't matter if you became an interceptor by means other than a contract with Variya, you still get the entirety of the Interceptor Perks, which are accessed via the Zeight. I agree that native access to the Zeight isn't the same as being an interceptor: there are entities other than interceptors which also have native access to the Zeight, especially very high up in the deity food chain. Just because we don't witness V, Clear, and Kieran interact with the Zeight, it doesn't mean it never happened or that it couldn't happen.

 

"Native access to the Zeight is inherent to the interceptor, period. It doesn't matter if you're an interceptor from another timeline, because the Zeight connects all of them, otherwise it couldn't allow interceptor to access the data of parallel versions of themselves". I can totally agree with this, sure. Though once again: I don't see if your somebody from outside the reach of Karma, suppose the Moonbase, I don't see why you'd have native access to Zeight. After all you're not tied to the system in any way whatsoever.

 

4 hours ago, dudeguyman said:

We do not know the extent the everything the Puppet Master knows of, but part of it is that the world has been reset by the MC, possibly countless times (Zetta asks you questions that you'll only learn the answer of in later chapters to verify MC is the true, true, doubly true interceptor), and it's common sense that if you're stuck in a time loop you'll eventually try everything, even siding with your enemies. "The cycle will be broken", given this context, can very easily refer to the time loop, and thus Renegade MC. MC is playing on both side because the win condition, for the MC, is not to beat a side, it's to produce the board state that will exit the time loop.

 

Fair point.

 

Back to my point before, I think this discussion is getting out of hand. I think we should just agree to disagree and call it quits. You can have your opinion and I'll have mine.

Edited May 28 by PartyCover

[dudeguyman]

6 minutes ago, PartyCover said:

I had a feeling you'd start insulting me sooner or later, all over what, because someone over the internet you've never met disagrees with you about a Pokemon Game? Didn't I even go ahead to aknowledge that there was still a possibility it was a time traveller, but it'd be way to complicated? And please, go right ahead and point out my "manipulated evidence" I'd love to see it. This just seems like a sad attempt at Ad Hominem.

Before this spirals out of control, when I'm talking about negligence and sabotage, I'm not accusing you, I'm accusing Nymiera and Admin. I'm saying that, if they simply did not mention Vitus, that would be negligence, but their act of deleting names from the records is an act on sabotage.

[PartyCover]

2 minutes ago, dudeguyman said:

Before this spirals out of control, when I'm talking about negligence and sabotage, I'm not accusing you, I'm accusing Nymiera and Admin. I'm saying that, if they simply did not mention Vitus, that would be negligence, but their act of deleting names from the records is an act on sabotage.

Either way I think we should end it here

[dudeguyman]

Sure, allow me one tiny thing because I just don't the point god across: "Sirius" is an alias for Vitus, no doubt about it, but in that message, I think Clear used it less in a literal way and more in a "The Grim Reaper is coming! Mwahaha!" way.