Proposition of Manaphy being moved down to OU.

[FraRPetO]

Not everyone uses Rotom-W or Celebi

...or do we all?

[Noivy]

If you people have ever seen Manaphy in the hands of Amy, tne you'd know just how nasty it is. OOOOOH LOOOK IT HAS 100 BASE STATS SO IT MUST BE JIRACHI OU LEVEL!

No.

Tailglow. Calm Mind. Acid Armor. Restration. Baton Pass. Manaphy is a devastating package almost as unpredictable as Mew. If it doesnt't pass, it will kick your ass. And second, why are you people looking at the standard 252SpAtt/252Speed/4HP? I've noticed that Amy's Manaphy can tank 2 super efective hits, unboosted, before resting.

In fact, I think Amy's is a 252 HP and some division in defenses, so that it can get a Calm Mind up, Rest, then it will start pounding.

OH and one more thing. PLEASE for the love of god propose these things when tiers are actually open for discussion. It makes it look like you're farming R$

[Yuki]

tl'dr'd most of the thread but food for thought-- is lacking hydration the only thing that moved Mew down to OU?

It also has base 100 across the board, no fancy rain-ability to speak of, though. What made it's move-down so controversial, though, was the fact that it had access to every TM/HM and thus could potentially be hella scary. Couldn't, in the same sense, it be argued that Manaphy is also POTENTIALLY hella scary?

[Swimming95]

Mew is only OU here? I thought it was lower than that.. the problem with mew is that while it can do almost anything...it suffers from "anything it can do, others can do better" syndrome.

Also, pretty sure manaphy can NOT learn baton pass...unless you mean baton passed to but that isn't too good of a comment as a lot of pokemon are awesome when baton passed to

[Shanco]

Mew is only OU here? I thought it was lower than that.. the problem with mew is that while it can do almost anything...it suffers from "anything it can do, others can do better" syndrome.

Also, pretty sure manaphy can NOT learn baton pass...unless you mean baton passed to but that isn't too good of a comment as a lot of pokemon are awesome when baton passed to.

You're right on all fronts - Mew is not OU here. (It's BL.) Also Manaphy, like I might have stated before, can not learn Baton Pass - Only Volbeat can pass a Tail Glow.

Manaphy can't learn Baton Pass. Only Volbeat can pass Tail Glow.

So I DID say that. *sigh*

But that's besides the point.

What I'm saying is that a Water Pokemon with 100 base across that can support itself (on top of nice coverage) does not deserve a second thought about getting some light in OU. If we really need a bulky Hydrator, then we have numerous choices like Vaporeon and Gorebyss.

Edited November 2, 2012 by rc52

[Godot]

Just looked at its movepool...

No it cannot learn baton pass... but it can learn:

Surf

Scald

Ice Beam

Hidden Power

Signal Beam

Psychic

Shadow Ball

Energy Ball

Grass Knot

Rest

Acid Armor

Tail Glow

Calm Mind

Aqua Ring

Heart Swap

Heal Bell

[Skeleton]

Lolno (Manaphy) @ Leftovers

Trait: Hydration

EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef

Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)

- Tail Glow

- Rest

- Surf

- Hidden Power [Fighting]

That is my Manaphy that I use in ubers, and it kicks ass. Even though I have misplaced EVs, I guess. And I don't use the best attacks.

But, if you think it should be moved to OU, go on, and don't forget to move all the ubers to OU, too.

Just wait until you see rain teams with it. Wait until your shit gets wrecked. Then go whine about it.

Anyways I am done here.

[Lil' Baby Rupe]

Heya; back with another comment.

Just wanted to clear something up; Manaphy can not learn Baton Pass. Please actually have some idea of what Manaphy's movepool contains and what it can do before commenting.

Acid Armor on Manaphy is wasting it's potential. If this was the common set for Manaphy it would be laughed at. Sacrificing either Calm Mind or a necessary coverage move for Acid Armor limits Manaphy too much.

Also, practically any choice user with Super Effective attacks beats Manaphy 1v1.

Thundurus-T

Thundurus-T (M) @ Choice Scarf

Trait: Volt Absorb

EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd

Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)

- Thunder

- Volt Switch

- Hidden Power [ice]

- Focus Blast

Simply spamming Thunder beats any varient of Manaphy, does it so much easier against sets running energy ball and even a pathetic Hidden Power [Fire].

Switching into Manaphy on any move is fine with him, CM sets lack the power to kill him even after +1-+2 with Ice Beam, and he can at least 2HKO with Thunder.

Tail Glow sets run no HP EVs so Thunder's a flat out OHKO.

Thundurus (Thundurus) (M) @ Life Orb

Trait: Prankster

EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd

Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)

- Thunder

- Volt Switch

- Hidden Power [ice]

- Taunt

Another commonly found Pokemon on Reborn OU, Thundurus can either Taunt Manaphy, completely shutting it down, or get a guaranteed 2HKO, Possible OHKO on Manaphy sets, while not even getting killed himself.

Rotom-W @ Choice Scarf

Trait: Levitate

EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd

Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)

- Hydro Pump

- Volt Switch

- Trick

- Hidden Power [ice]

Rotom-W is another incredibly common pokemon found on many OU teams because it's so easy to use. The scarf set can wall all Manaphy's attacks, resisting his stab, Ice beam and taking neautral damage from Energy Ball. Rotom can be used to pick off weakened Manaphy or use his Trick to give Manaphy a choice scarf, severely limiting his sweeping, supporting and survivability abilities. Practically any trick user can successfully cripple Manaphy.

Kingdra (M) @ Choice Specs

Trait: Swift Swim

EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd

Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)

- Dragon Pulse

- Ice Beam

- Surf

- Draco Meteor

In fact, many bulky water pokemon can be used as a counter to Manaphy in OU, Kingdra has the bulk to wall any of Manaphy's sets while he fires off incredibly powerful Draco Meteors. This is very effective in beating Manaphy 1v1, OHKO'ing the most common offensive set. Kingdra quad resists any so called HP [Fire] sets, Ice Beam and Surf, and is neutral to Energy ball.

The Dragon Dance Kingdra set works practically the same, except he can set up 1-2 Dragon Dances before being in the danger zone. Outrage from this beast deals with Manaphy effectively.

Ludicolo (M) @ Life Orb

Trait: Swift Swim

EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd

Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)

- Giga Drain

- Ice Beam

- Surf

- Rain Dance/ Focus Blast

Ludicolo laughs at Manaphy, great typing and special defence allow him to wall any attack Manaphy has and regain health with a STAB Giga Drain.

Excadrill (F) @ Life Orb

Trait: Sand Rush

EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd

Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)

- Earthquake

- Rapid Spin

- Rock Slide

- X-Scissor

A free switch-in in the sand with excadrill spells the doom of Manaphy. In Excadrills home territory it out speeds Manaphy and threatens to OHKO with his amazingly high attack.

Other things that have already been discussed: Celebi and Ferrothorn. Coupled with Ludicolo, this gives me the impression that many bulky grass types can also effectively wall Manaphy while hitting back with powerful STAB SE attacks.

One last thing: You take away this pokemon's beneficial weather and it's sweeping ability is severely limited.

Does that not remind you of something?

EDIT: Also, to the person who put forward the preposterous idea of me making this thread for "$R", how stupid are you? I have no reason to use any "$R", I'm not interested in updating my Forum Profile at all. Thanks for your input though?

Edit: Removed confusing typo with Thundurus/Thundurus-T

Edited November 2, 2012 by Rupe

[Mako]

I will state that we have a 1 week trial period. If Manaphy sweeps shit too much then move it up to Ubers. If it however doesn't perform hugely well then keep it in OU.

It seems the only logical thing to do here, instead of playing theorymon I say we road test it on the actual game.

Just my two cents though of course.

Edited November 2, 2012 by Mako

[Lil' Baby Rupe]

I will state that we have a 1 week trial period. If Manaphy sweeps shit too much then move it up to Ubers. If it however doesn't perform hugely well then keep it in OU.

It seems the only logical thing to do here, instead of playing theorymon I say we road test it on the actual game.

Just my two cents though of course.

I very much like this idea.

[Swimming95]

You have two thundurus's...

I agree that that is a good counter... the prankster variant is nice though isn't *as* effective if manaphy already has a calm mind up but thats pretty moot right now.

Something I don't love about your position is that most of those "counters" involve a scarf as they hurt you as much as it helps you. You are locked into one move and they are highly predictable to spot. Plus, you need an assured OHKO in that case to be of much use.

Acid armor is very viable and it would make manaphy pretty good: rest, scald, acid armor, calm mind is a nice stall set imho as it would shut down both special and physical attackers, plus scald does damage is boosted by calm mind and rain and stab.

Rotom isn't neutral against grass... not sure where that came from, and ok... scarfs might break manaphy but they are a pretty big double edge sword

Excadrill certainly doesn't get the free switch in you think, excadrill needs sand as much as manaphy needs rain. However, excadrill is much frailer, slower (in neutral weather) and probably won't OHKO manaphy before it dies.

Bulky waters are much more of a check than a counter. Manaphy can learn energy ball and it is a common variant and bulky waters don't know as many effective moves against manaphy thus making them unable to counter well.

Kingdra is meh, draco meteor is less of a counter than outrage is due to the sp. attack drop and that manaphy often runs calm mind.

Ludicolo might work as a counter... but primarly, I owuld love to find non weather counters and resist the urge to counter weather with more weather. Out of the pokemon you have listed, only thundurus-T keeps its counter status.

As far as I know on here, we don;t have much of a stats to use which would be really nice if we wanted a trial. Personally, I definitely think that manaphy would be too powerful to try as a trial. Plus, trials aren't usually as good of indicators imho...

[Ikaru]

I still don't understand how making Rain stronger introduces balance any more than it just makes the game more weather-centric, but since

it isn't about how manaphy fares in ubers, only about how it fares in OU

is basically my only argument here, if everyone is so sure that it won't be a bad idea I guess we could try it; I like Manaphy so I wouldn't really be opposed.

[Hyouka]

You also have to keep in mind that some things in OU are used in ubers for their job because they might do it better than some of the ubers. Like you can bring thundurus to an ubers team to stop manaphy but you don't need to bring manaphy down to OU because it is stopped by thundurus.

[Hedron]

Enough of the Acid Armor; If Manaphy has Tail Glow and Rest then it would only have 1 attack, making it useless. If it doesn't have either tail glow or rest then it still isn't a problem because it can't either heal or boost.

Anyway, Surf / HP Fighting Manaphy is walled by Jellicent

Energy Ball? Well, then it's walled by Celebi.

There are a lot of counters to manaphy in OU. It completely has to rely on it's own capabilities with tail glow since it can't use baton pass. If that's the only argument you're going to make, let's go ahead and make Volbeat uber too :]

Anyway, what is the difference between Manaphy and Mew? Sure, Manaphy has restdration with tail glow, but Mew can actually pass out boosts, plus there are way more sets on Mew and they both have the same stats. Scarf, Lefties, E-Belt, Banded, Specs, LO... there are countless items for Mew, which calls for countless sets.

I think most people don't recognize that their tiers aren't perfect, and it would be much better for the consensus of people if they actually changed them from time to time. All the tier changes they actually make are completely arbitrary and don't change the game at all.

[Kamina]

All i am hearing is qq if this pokemon gets implemented into ou than we will have to adjust to new playstyles. you want to know what counters a manaphy il give you it. Any pokemon with a higher base speed and can do more than half of manaphies max hp is a counter to it. Dragons and grass counter manaphy if it is the scald, energyball kind. Water pokes counter manaphy if it is the scald ice beam combo.

You have two thundurus's...

I agree that that is a good counter... the prankster variant is nice though isn't *as* effective if manaphy already has a calm mind up but thats pretty moot right now.

Something I don't love about your position is that most of those "counters" involve a scarf as they hurt you as much as it helps you. You are locked into one move and they are highly predictable to spot. Plus, you need an assured OHKO in that case to be of much use.

Acid armor is very viable and it would make manaphy pretty good: rest, scald, acid armor, calm mind is a nice stall set imho as it would shut down both special and physical attackers, plus scald does damage is boosted by calm mind and rain and stab.

Rotom isn't neutral against grass... not sure where that came from, and ok... scarfs might break manaphy but they are a pretty big double edge sword

Excadrill certainly doesn't get the free switch in you think, excadrill needs sand as much as manaphy needs rain. However, excadrill is much frailer, slower (in neutral weather) and probably won't OHKO manaphy before it dies.

Bulky waters are much more of a check than a counter. Manaphy can learn energy ball and it is a common variant and bulky waters don't know as many effective moves against manaphy thus making them unable to counter well.

Kingdra is meh, draco meteor is less of a counter than outrage is due to the sp. attack drop and that manaphy often runs calm mind.

Ludicolo might work as a counter... but primarly, I owuld love to find non weather counters and resist the urge to counter weather with more weather. Out of the pokemon you have listed, only thundurus-T keeps its counter status.

As far as I know on here, we don;t have much of a stats to use which would be really nice if we wanted a trial. Personally, I definitely think that manaphy would be too powerful to try as a trial. Plus, trials aren't usually as good of indicators imho...

first almost every team has atlest 1 scarfer and another pokemon that has a base speed that is higher than manaphies

if you going to teach manaphy acid armor and calm mind scald and rest well than its easily going to be countered by all the people teaching their pokemon haze right?

okay the thing about rotom. every time someone says that a pokemon counters manaphy you act as if manaphy will magically be able to learn 5 moves. if Manaphy gets energy ball than it is prone to grass and dragon types pokemon. It cannot learn ice beam / scold and energy ball with out giving up calm mind/tail glow which will make its attack significantly weaker or rest which would prevent it from recovering

Also trials are a lot better at indicating if a pokemon is op than creating hypothetical situations.

Edited November 2, 2012 by ♥Double Team♥