We need to implement evasion clause in Ladder!

[Kamina]

Sorry Kamina, but:

1: As said before, there's no evasion clause on the current PO.

2: Complaining about evasion being to do with luck is basically bashing on crits, added effects (e.g bite's flinch), the list goes on. Plus, evasion, being an "epitome" of luck, bakafires on itself because if YOU use it, there's a chance you're gonna blow it too. The person setting up evasion might be the one in anger over "luck" in the end.

1: If you ban minimize and double team than you have successfully implemented an evasion clause.

2. I have stated this earlier and that is that i know there are other hax but getting rid of evasion just makes it so that there is less hax in pokemon. Moves that cause flinch and/or reduce stats or crits will always be a part of the game and it is impossible to modify them so i do not worry much about them.

Also if a person abuses evasion than he/she is relying on it to win. I would never use evasion because it is not a very reliable way to win but with that in mind there are a lot of people who continue to utilize it. And unless you have haze or perfect accuracy moves you must rely on luck to win. And the only viable perfect accuracy moves in OU are thunder, hurricane and aura sphere.

stilll ly

Edited November 1, 2012 by Kamina

[Neo]

Then run something to stop it. Note that you're one of the few people complaining about it. Everyone else has probably learned to deal with it. It's a part of battling, if you can't deal with it Beta is only a couple slots above on the registry.

[Kamina]

Then run something to stop it. Note that you're one of the few people complaining about it. Everyone else has probably learned to deal with it. It's a part of battling, if you can't deal with it Beta is only a couple slots above on the registry.

Actually most of the people who commented do not competitively play. (besides rupe and ryan c)

Most of there arguments are theory crafted.

Having a pokemon to haze for evasion only is not practical at all when team building.

especially when there are not that many good pokemon in OU that learn haze in the first place.

[Mashew]

I've seen a lot of people use Coil on the ladder. THat completey tells Evasion F*** you.

[Neo]

Actually most of the people who commented do not competitively play. (besides rupe and ryan c)

Most of there arguments are theory crafted.

Having a pokemon to haze for evasion only is not practical at all when team building.

especially when there are not that many good pokemon in OU that learn haze in the first place.

You're making assumptions. If you think that having a Pokemon with Haze/Coil/Clear Smog in a metagame where everyone wants to try to set up is not practical, then maybe you shouldn't be laddering.

Amoonguss (M) @ Leftovers

Trait: Regenerator

EVs: 252 HP / 48 Def / 208 SDef

Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)

- Spore

- Clear Smog

- Giga Drain

- Hidden Power [ice]

There ya go.

[Zen]

Just some of my usual Haze pokemon - most of which are common ones on the ladder:

- Amoonguss (standard set as shown above)

- Crobat (the fastest Haze user - my usual)

- Weezing (bulky as crap)

- Murkrow (arguably the best as it has Prankster)

- Honchkrow (lovely to use with Superpower - raises defense back up)

- Cofagrigus (and can jam contact moves)

- Cryogonal (and has Frost Breath, which does the job for some non-evasive set-ups)

- Gengar (probably the second-fastest Haze user)

- Haunter (if I want to have a fast yet utility ghost)

- Xatu (with Magic Bounce also)

- Milotic (goes well with Dragon Tail)

- Chandelure (kind of a waste on chandelure, but it's an option)

Perhaps laddering has become too... skewed, I guess. To the point that Haze appears to be a waste.

[Kamina]

You're making assumptions. If you think that having a Pokemon with Haze/Coil/Clear Smog in a metagame where everyone wants to try to set up is not practical, then maybe you shouldn't be laddering.

Amoonguss (M) @ Leftovers

Trait: Regenerator

EVs: 252 HP / 48 Def / 208 SDef

Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)

- Spore

- Clear Smog

- Giga Drain

- Hidden Power [ice]

There ya go.

Because Clear Smog is so good at countering evasion when it never hits?

Also it is not a meta game shift, only a minority of people actually choose to abuse evasion because of its unreliability.

adding in pokemon to counter a specific team that is uncommon is unpractical.

Also all the pokemon that can learn coil are not that good in OU. (arbok, serperior [usually run contrary] and electross)

Just some of my usual Haze pokemon - most of which are common ones on the ladder:

- Amoonguss (standard set as shown above)

- Crobat (the fastest Haze user - my usual)

- Weezing (bulky as crap)

- Murkrow (arguably the best as it has Prankster)

- Honchkrow (lovely to use with Superpower - raises defense back up)

- Cofagrigus (and can jam contact moves)

- Cryogonal (and has Frost Breath, which does the job for some non-evasive set-ups)

- Gengar (probably the second-fastest Haze user)

- Haunter (if I want to have a fast yet utility ghost)

- Xatu (with Magic Bounce also)

- Milotic (goes well with Dragon Tail)

- Chandelure (kind of a waste on chandelure, but it's an option)

Perhaps laddering has become too... skewed, I guess. To the point that Haze appears to be a waste.

-Bulky crobat does not tank well in OU with all the hp ice

-Weezing is not a good defensive wall because it lacks reliable recovery unlike other OU walls

- a Murkrow used only for only haze is unfeasible

- Wasting a turn on houchcrow to regain its lost defenses after superpower is also not practical

- Confag has same problem as Weezing

-Gengar is a special attacker and wasting one of its movepool for haze is a waste

- Xatu might work but in return you will probably have to give up a move like u turn or heat wave which is vital to Xatu

- Milotic how does haze go well with dragontail ?

- Chand the only good ones are scarfed and locking on to haze is not a good idea especially since it is not bulky. Non Scarf chandy with haze is a wasted opportunity to set up on chancies and ferothorns.

None of them are really feasible in OU. The only real hazer in OU is Politoed and making every team a rain team is ridiculous.

Edited November 2, 2012 by Kamina

[Hedron]

This is one of the things I hate about some people on Reborn; They assume that the tiers they have right now are perfect in every way and nobody is willing to change. The mods are completely unresponsive about tier suggestions. There is a fine line between "creative tiers" and breaking the tier altogether.

inb4 someone tells me to go somewhere else

[Mashew]

This is one of the things I hate about some people on Reborn; They assume that the tiers they have right now are perfect in every way and nobody is willing to change. The mods are completely unresponsive about tier suggestions. There is a fine line between "creative tiers" and breaking the tier altogether.

inb4 someone tells me to go somewhere else

If this was true then why would we have tier discussions/tier changes every season? We didn't "break the tier" they are creative and they are a staple here at reborn. And you well.. inb4'd it.

[Ikaru]

This is one of the things I hate about some people on Reborn; They assume that the tiers they have right now are perfect in every way and nobody is willing to change. The mods are completely unresponsive about tier suggestions. There is a fine line between "creative tiers" and breaking the tier altogether.

inb4 someone tells me to go somewhere else

I'll be the first to say I don't necessarily approve of the "if you don't like it, get out" thing, but in response to something like this I wouldn't call it so far out of line; we're very much not "completely unresponsive," (seen here, here, and if I could find the ones before those without putting in far more effort than I'd like to, they'd be here as well) and are aware it isn't perfect- by definition, any metagame anywhere cannot be "perfect."

Our rule 5 on the server, put into simpler terms, is basically "to each their own." As Ame put it in the FAQ-

People are encouraged to think for themselves which Pokemon are best to use or might be "overpowered" rather than allowing any server, including Reborn, to think for them. The fact that Reborn uses a custom tiering system is simply the manifestation of our own independent thought.

(seen here)

I for one don't run anything anyone would consider overpowered, but that's not because it's overpowered; I just choose not to. In the same vein, anyone else is allowed to use whatever they choose to, and evasion is no exception. If you find it that game-breaking, none of us will stop you from using it as well if winning is such a big deal to you.

[slant]

I completely agree with Kamina. I think we can all agree that ideally, a skilled player should beat an unskilled player 100% of the time. The further we move from this ideal, the more flawed the game is. We already have to deal with bs like flinches and crits; adding evasion clause just makes things even worse since it shifts the focus of the game towards luck and away from skill. This is meant to be a game of strategy, not of luck.

Some other random points that I'd like to refute:

Luck is an element of any game. If they want to increase the odds in their favor, then fine by me. Either I adapt or lose.

This is not true. The epitome of strategy games are chess and go; both games have no luck factor, making it purely a contest of skill.

If you think that having a Pokemon with Haze/Coil/Clear Smog in a metagame where everyone wants to try to set up is not practical, then maybe you shouldn't be laddering..

Plenty of people have this attitude that evasion shouldn't be a problem since there are ways to prepare for it. Kamina already did a good job explaining why these methods are unrealiable or infeasible, but this is completely missing the point - we should not have to prepare for evasion. Of course we're prepared for the opponent trying to set up, but evasion is a different thing entirely. Nobody wants to put the fate of their match in the hands of a RNG, and I think as a goal we should be minimizing the impact of luck wherever possible.

Also suggesting that Kamina shouldn't be laddering is kind of silly.

Edited November 2, 2012 by slant

[Neo]

So you shouldn't have to prepare for a part of the game? Well, shit. I'm going to stop worrying about Jirachi, Whimsicott, Muk, and every other Pokemon I deem too haxxy for me to play with.

[Hedron]

So you shouldn't have to prepare for a part of the game? Well, shit. I'm going to stop worrying about Jirachi, Whimsicott, Muk, and every other Pokemon I deem too haxxy for me to play with.

If this server is in a world where Muk is haxxy, then there are some problems here

[slant]

So you shouldn't have to prepare for a part of the game? Well, shit. I'm going to stop worrying about Jirachi, Whimsicott, Muk, and every other Pokemon I deem too haxxy for me to play with.

You're not understanding what I'm trying to say. With evasion clause, many below average players will use it and win games that they otherwise wouldn't against better players which we can agree should not happen. Put another way, evasion is the exact opposite of what "strategy" is - it is eliminating strategy and hoping that the RNG works out in your favor. It's a matter of principle - after all, why should a shittier opponent win even 1 out of 100 matches due to pure luck when you have no option to prevent it from happening?

I have no problem with RELIABLE ways to win. This includes flinch hax, and whatever Whimsicott does (I don't really see how this is related). Between Jirachi's flinch and paralysis the opponent has close to 80% chance not to attack which is reliable in my book. I'd also say something about Whimsicott and Muk but to be honest I don't know where you're going with this. If you beat me with reliable methods then congratulations, you deserve the win. On the other hand, evasion gives a 50% chance of a miss after one double team. This is not reliable by any means, this is the opponent leaving the match up to the RNG, not a test of skill.

Edited November 2, 2012 by slant

[Conor]

Okay, I'm just going to throw this out there. a minority of the people who have commented on this thread are in favor of the idea of banning evasion. No matter your argument, Majority wins. if that should change than the auth would have no choice but to review your argument and make an informed decision As for an argument against it now, I think the banning of evasion would lead to the banning of many other things, thus ceating a generic tier system that Reborn strives so hard not to have. if you were to ban evasion, of course the next thing to be changed is moody becoming banned as well. since certain abilities are being banned now, there's no doubt in my mind that abilities like Contrary and Speed Boost would soon be banned. following that would be abilities like swift swim and sand rush being banned when being used with their perspective weathers. Its a vicious cycle, and i think that if we were to start banning things, that as stated by kamina above are "uncommon", it wouldn't be hard for us to eventualy be okay with banning anything that seems to difficult to prepare for. This is why there is no perfect pokemon team, because there is always going to be some strategy that you can't prepare for on any team. if you start taking away things that aren't able to be countered viabley, than whats the point of playing. is It really fun to win every single time, or is the fun in that every single match has a possibility of being won or lost?

[Swimming95]

I definitely agree with what you said conor though ask that we not bring in the sampling bias of only considering those who post.

When you are building your team, you need to be ready for anything and everything and if you cannot understand the strengths and weaknesses of your team, then I am sorry but you are not that good of a teambuilder in my eyes.

A skilled player should NOT be able to beat an unskilled player 100% of the time, anyone can beat anyone and imho it is proven pretty often. The metagame thrives on the combination of luck and skill and the fact that you cannot prepare for everything. You can make this analogy to chess but it is a tiny bit more obtuse and doesn't really help in this situation... we are not playing chess but if you want, I wouldn't mind playing some games

Luck is just as much a challenge for both sides and evasion is not reliable. you look at it as hitting isn't reliable? think it of guarenteed missing isn't reliable. Or you could try not letting an opponent set up... thats always good

[Kamina]

Okay, I'm just going to throw this out there. a minority of the people who have commented on this thread are in favor of the idea of banning evasion. No matter your argument, Majority wins. if that should change than the auth would have no choice but to review your argument and make an informed decision As for an argument against it now, I think the banning of evasion would lead to the banning of many other things, thus ceating a generic tier system that Reborn strives so hard not to have. if you were to ban evasion, of course the next thing to be changed is moody becoming banned as well. since certain abilities are being banned now, there's no doubt in my mind that abilities like Contrary and Speed Boost would soon be banned. following that would be abilities like swift swim and sand rush being banned when being used with their perspective weathers. Its a vicious cycle, and i think that if we were to start banning things, that as stated by kamina above are "uncommon", it wouldn't be hard for us to eventualy be okay with banning anything that seems to difficult to prepare for. This is why there is no perfect pokemon team, because there is always going to be some strategy that you can't prepare for on any team. if you start taking away things that aren't able to be countered viabley, than whats the point of playing. is It really fun to win every single time, or is the fun in that every single match has a possibility of being won or lost?

I already mentioned in the beginning of my post how getting rid of evasion will not be a slippery slope. At most i will be able to get rid of moody but that is the only other ability that has anything to do with evasiveness. Also just because the majority of the people with reborn accounts believes that evasion is a good thing does not mean that the people who actually ladder in reborn think the same way. in fact most people who actually competitively ladder think evasion is a joke. Yes there is no perfect team but why should we give more reason for a battle be to dictated by luck. THis has been the theme of my thread the whole time. There is not perfect team and there never will be even with the expulsion of double team and minimize.

[Neo]

So what I'm taking from this is:

You're "qq"ing over the fact that you can't ladder without knowing you're going to hit all the time. Next you're speaking for everyone on the ladder without knowing who ladders. In other words; This thread is nothing but a tantrum. A tantrum that's being thrown because "He's not playing fair, mommy!" "I'm supposed to win!"

Well get over it. You can bring forth all the opinions you want, you've still yet to make even the slightest convincing argument. Show me the percentage of games won by Evasion. Show me that it just can't be stopped. Show me that it's making a significant impact on the metagame. Until you can do this, you have no argument.

[Kamina]

So what I'm taking from this is:

You're "qq"ing over the fact that you can't ladder without knowing you're going to hit all the time. Next you're speaking for everyone on the ladder without knowing who ladders. In other words; This thread is nothing but a tantrum. A tantrum that's being thrown because "He's not playing fair, mommy!" "I'm supposed to win!"

Well get over it. You can bring forth all the opinions you want, you've still yet to make even the slightest convincing argument. Show me the percentage of games won by Evasion. Show me that it just can't be stopped. Show me that it's making a significant impact on the metagame. Until you can do this, you have no argument.

L OL

did you not read a single thing that i wrote in the top about how unviable it is to have haze in OU or perfect accuracy moves for that matter?

not to be critical or anything but this is what i am typically getting form your responses:

I do not actually ladder my self but i feel compelled to tell other people to either adapt or leave because they do not agree with my out dated principles. Oh also when i cant actually come up with a counter to what he is saying i will just write random shit like how a gen 2 Elite four leaders and strategies has something to do with gen 5 competitive scene and how jirachi, whimsicott and a fucking muk is just as hard to counter as a poke spamming double team

If you think that i have only been giving opinions than you are dead wrong. Do me a favor and scroll up and read all of my post. kthxbai.

Edited November 2, 2012 by Kamina

[Neo]

Excuse me for not making my sarcasm far more blunt for you.

If you actually knew shit from shinola, then you'd know that I ladder quite fuckin' often. Secondly you're calling not only my principles, but everyone who has disagreed with you's principles "outdated". Well who the fuck elected you king shit of the metagame? Please tell me how I'm supposed to play because you can't do something simple like Phaze or use Haze/CS. Please come and tell me that I obviously know nothing about battling having battled since Gen II competitively.

Where are your facts and figures, huh? Where's the hard data that says that Evasion is detriment to the ladder? I love how you completely ignored that point because you can't fuckin' answer it. This thread is almost as sad as Rotomfan's due to the fact that you can't come up with any argument better than "I can't hit it"

Having haze is sooooooooooo unviable, right? Why is it that Dodrio uses it all the time with damn good success rates? Why is it a very well-known strategy? Well shit, all those people who use it must suck, especially if certain Pokemon are given roles to solely do that. What a bunch of dumbasses, right?

With every post all you're proving is that you're a mediocre battler who can't hand something as simple as DT.

[Kamina]

Ya I am calling your principles outdated and I have given sufficient evidence to back it up. Also I will be glad to point out that you obviously know nothing about the battling because you think gen 2 has relavence in gen 5. Now lol at the fact that you say I have no facts and figures as if I had the power to watch all the games in reborn that have to do with evasion and record them. And haze is unviable because even though dodrio was good he was never able to make it to the top like I have 3 times already. (ATM I am second place in ou ladder right now. I wonder where you are?) Also thanks for the new signature and name. I like

Actually i do know how to read and il give you some examples of how you tried to relate second gen with the current metagame.

"How did you ever get past Koga in G/S/C if you're complaining about evasion. It's a part of the game. Either learn to deal with it, or don't play at all."

"If it takes no skill, then it should take relatively low skill to beat it. It's like the stall battles of Gen II. Yes it didn't take skills to do it, but it didn't take much skill to beat it. Once you figure out how to deal with evasion, it will never be a problem again."

And even if i gave you statistics i am sure you would than say that they were made up even though really it doesn't matter how many people abuse it the fact that they do is enough to warrant a ban because it really is shitting on the meta-game.

:/ and i am done with you until you can actually provide viable counters to deal with Evasion without making it shit compared to other teams

[Neo]

I stated that I've been battling since then, can you read?

Secondly you're going to say that you can't acquire figures on Evasion, yet you ladder. Are you unable to record the number of your ladder battles that involve the use of Evasion? Are you unable to do simple math?

I'm done with you until you can present an argument based on facts.

[Ikaru]

Yes, actually, you are done, and at this rate, everyone is.

Everything that could be said has been said.