5th Gen Threats

[Amethyst]

Now that it's officially out, what Pokemon seem to be the most dangerous- in your experiences?

I'd add some myself, but I... really haven't battled much.

[Ikaru]

Ditto.

[Ninpen]

Uninteresting thread so far is uninteresting...

[Ikaru]

I only say what I did in speaking for the rest of us; It's become heavily apparent that Ditto's an issue to some of us.

While I haven't personally had any issues with it, I can see from others such as N8 battling, it's a big problem. A Blaziken perfectly set up with +6 attack and +4 speed, sweeping with Reversal, suddenly is met by a Ditto; That Blaziken can expect to be effortlessly made into KFC within the next turn.

[code]Dream World-only Ability:
Eccentric
When Ditto is sent out, it uses Transform against one of the opponent's Pokemon right away.[/code]

^ This ability also copies stat boosts, so, if Ditto was to have a Choice Scarf (which it always will), you pretty much are guaranteed a KO on whatever's out at the moment.

[AZKnight]

Dear lord, that is a bit terrifying. I guess Ditto will no longer be [i]just [/i]a sex slave.

Cloyster w/ Life Orb
Ability: Skill Link - Moves that hit 2-5 times will always hit 5 times.
Move: Shell Break - It breaks its own shell and lowers its Defence and Special Defence, but its Attack, Sp. Attack and Speed sharply rise.
Move: Icicle Spear- Attacks the foe by firing 2 to 5 icicles in a row. Base Power 25 (Used to be 10)

Cloyster uses the move Shell Break and suddenly it has +2 Speed and +2 Attack. Then it can use Icicle Spear to hit 5 times for 125 base power and it gets STAB. Here is the breakdown of damage:

Cloyster Damage Calcs:
+2 Adamant LO Icicle Spear (25 BP STAB x 5 hits) vs.

252/252 Impish Skarmory = 80.8% - 98.8% (OHKO with Rocks)
252/252 Impish Swampert = 89.1% - 106.4%
252/252 Impish Hippowdon = 145.2% - 173.8%
252/252 Relaxed Nattorei = 81% - 95.2%
252/252 Bold Cresselia = 67.6% - 81.1%
252/252 Impish Uxie = 80.5% - 94.6%
252/252 Impish Poliwrath = 46.9% - 54.7%
252/252 Impish Giratina = 119% - 142.9%
252/252 Impish Groudon = 136.1% - 163.4%
252/252 Bold Suicune = 37.1% - 44.6% (possible 2HKO with Rocks)
252/252 Impish Deoxys-D = 80.6% - 95.4%
0/0 Shanderaa = 97.7% - 114.9%
0/0 Kerudio = 78.9% - 92.9%
0/24 Empoleon = 40.6% - 48.7% (incredible considering it 4x resists)
4/0 Kyogre = 74.6% - 87.7%


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Shanderaa
Dream World Ability: Shadow Tag

It has proven to be a lethal ability on Wobbuffet and it could be even worse with Shanderaa. If someone that is Choiced attacks with a Fighting move, then you can just switch it in and set up max Calm Minds. Then once you're all set, unleash hell with +6 Special Attack. It can also learn Substitute of course and if it weren't for standard rules, you could also see if with Double Team. Say hello to rape.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Jalorda (Grass Starter)
Dream World Ability: Perversity - It reverses changes to its stats

It has access to the move Leaf Storm which is a 140 bp Grass type Special Attack. Now normally this move will also lower the Special Attack of the user 2 stages, but because of Perversity it will actually raise its Special Attack to +2. So every time it attacks it only gets stronger.

[Amethyst]

After some battles on Beta, my opinions of some of the more popular Pokemon.
Note my team, which in some regards may skew my responses:

BellyDrum Politoed
EntryHazard Nattorei
SpeedBoost Sharpedo
Sub/DD Kingdra
Resdration Vaporeon
LifeOrb Starmie



[b]Ditto-[/b] Often works well. Very popular. Annoying, but not anywhere near broken enough to get to Ubers. Ditto loved to switch in on Sharpedo and of course, Kingdra- but in either case Nattorei or Vaporeon could force it out. Thanks to Aqua Jet, Sharpedo could also take on its own dittoclones if they were dumb/weak enough.

[b]Cloyster-[/b] Mentioned here; not popular. Only saw one, in fact, and Vaporeon walled it entirely. It Shell Broke some more to get ready to take it out, but at that point its defenses were low enough to allow it to be surfed down to death instantly.

[b]Chandellier-[/b] Saw a good number, but they mostly stayed in the background, away from my rain team. They loved to come in on Nattorei though- either calm mind up or fire blast off the get-go. In the former case, I could set up with hazards in the time, or rush to my next pokemon by making Nattorei explode itself. Regardless, Aqua Jet from Sharpedo spelled death for these things.

[b]Jaroda-[/b] Thiiiiiiiis bitch. Note I only have two ice moves on my team, and if Sharpedo isn't SpeedBoosted already Jaroda seems to be faster than that or Starmie. Even a +2 Leaf Storm is basically a KO on anything on my team except Nattorei- who can only hope to explode with enough force to allow Kingdra's Outrage to take it out. If Jaroda runs Sub or Screens, both of which I've seen, it's all over for me. Never saw it attack with anything but Leaf Storm though. Something with Herbivore might counter.

[b]Doryzuu-[/b] The rumoured atomic bomb of Gen V... I didn't see it that much. In fact, I only saw two sand teams at all- much more rain. It doesn't like Sharpedo's Aqua Jet. That said, it still took me down once (not a sweep, it was 1v1 at the end) outside of sand with a scarf. Hm...

[b]Ononukusu-[/b] Monstrous power- Took a good 66% out of +6 Def Vaporeon with +1 or 2, I forget which. But This Thing v Vaporeon was a double KO- it killed itself with life orb. Still, all of the others I saw were easily taken down by Kingdra.

[b]Sazandora-[/b] Sometimes I didn't even need Kingdra for this- and it seldom did anything terribly helpful. Saw a few, they tried, they failed.

[b]Nattorei-[/b] Ugh. They say these things walk all over rain teams. They don't. They are annoying though- in most cases I switched into my own and see who got bored and switched out first- Sharpedo's Earthquake or... Something, would deal with this later. Definitely not a good solution, but I really didn't have any great trouble with them.

[b]Burungeru-[/b] A common wall... But not a great one. I didn't see any Nattorei/Burungeru cores, to my surprise- but for the most part, Burungeru itself caused me little trouble. A Crunch, a Thunder- often two- and it was down.

[b]Sharpedo-[/b] To my surprise I only saw one enemy shark (and no Blaziken to match), oddly, as a lead. My shark plays revenge kill, and aqua jet got the better of the opposing one after it was weakened. Not a huge problem. On my side, Sharpedo has been a beast. Aqua Jet makes it a revenge killer, and the subsequent boost turns it into a sweeper.

[b]Breloom-[/b] Technician Breloom proves to be... much stronger than I had imagined. Mach Punch/SD is powerful enough alone, but Spore doesn't help. I was able to kill it through Aqua Jet, but if it chose to use Mach Punch, I don't know if Sharpedo would have outsped it. Surprising few of them.

[b]Roopushin-[/b] With that bulk and monstrous attack, I knew this thing would be a nightmare. Its ability to check Doryzuu should have made it a popular nightmare. It was not. I saw it only twice- both times it did next to nothing useful. Mach Punch isn't enjoyable, but it wasn't a nuisance.

[b]Rotom-[/b] For my purposes, Rotom losing its ghost type was not a welcome change. Yet, the Rotom-W's I've seen (none else yet) have all made good use of that change with a STAB Hydro Pump now flying out. Ouch. They've not been easy to deal with- Outrage has been the best, so far...

[b]Kyruemu-[/b] I'm told this Ice Dragon has a massive 680 Base Stat total. From how difficult to fight it was when I saw it, I'd believe it. Difficult to fight, but not well used. I'm told that it lacks moves to make use of its numbers, and although it did take out half my team, I got the impression that it was flailing around as it did so. Not a huge worry- just another thing for ubernoobers to abuse.

[b]Zoroark-[/b] Alright, I only saw one, disguised as a Dusclops (not Noir...) but it messed my shit up. Dark Pulse, Nasty Plot, Focus Blast, Flamethrower took out half my team before I figured out what was going on. I feel stupid for that. But I'm proud of it. I want to hug it.

[b]Zuruzukin-[/b] Oh god, Derpface. Bulk Up/Dragon Dance, Dragon Tail, Drain Punch- Lots of D's. Here's two more- Deadly. This thing, though built like a wall, swept me. Gamefreak seems to think it's Dragon? I was not expecting the phaze. Healing through Drain Punch is very effective. It also likes to run payback sometimes... Haven't compensated for this yet- it takes any non-fighting attack well, it seems, and I lack those.

Missing 4th Gen Threats (OU 4th Gen Pokemon that I did not see at all):
Skarmory
Blissey
Jolteon
SporeLoom
Heatran
Snorlax
Dragonite
Weaville
Zapdos
Togekiss
Gyarados
Smeargle

Mind, this is only a few hours of battles- just initial impressions of the new metagame.

On my end:
Bellydrum Politoed as a lead: Beat most enemy Politoed- could usually take out at least one opposing pokemon if it got set up. Solid lead, but Dittobait.
Nattorei: Excellent at getting entry hazards up, but not much of anything else. Chandellierbait.
SpeedBoost Sharpedo: Tied with Kingdra for my MVP. This has been beast. More dittobait though.
Sub/DD Kingdra: Tied with Sharpedo for MVP. As excellent as in 4th gen, but with the addition of unending rain. ...dittobait...
Hydration Vaporeon: Epic stall/wall/tank/whatever you need it to be. I am throughly impressed. Acid Armor+Rest is difficult to beat. Can take on most ditto.
Life Orb Starmie: By far my least valuable player. Didn't have the utility, speed or power it did in 4th gen. Sadly, the Star's probably going to go.

.02

[Bullet]

Urugamosu: Though it's weak to Stealth Rocks, it's a real pain if it sets up. With just one Butterfly Dance, its Special Attack and Speed rocket, the former which can be further boosted by Flame Dance. Heck, I swept a Rain team with it, in Rain.

Roopushin: Huge attack, Fighting type, and, decent bulk. Burning it just makes things worse if it packs Guts, and Mach Punch can get pretty powerful.

Jaroda: Yeah, this thing is deadly. With Perversity, Lead Storm is a powerful STAB move..... that doubles your attack. And of course, it has a sweeper's dream, somewhat good defenses and lots of speed.

Sazandora: Meet the new Mixmence. This thing is terrifying, with decent speed, just below Mence and above Ononokusu, and huge base attack. It can actually take an Ice attack without Yache, thanks to being only x2 weak.

Ononokusu: Oh hai, 147 base atttack. Oh hai, super powerful Outrage. Yep, that's what Ononokusu does best. While I prefer a bulky dancer myself, if it's packing all attack and speed, you better hope you have a good counter... or a scarfed Ditto ><.

Ditto: Suppose I might as well say it. Ditto now pretty much makes you really be afraid to set up, in fear of the opponent bringing in the same sweeper, with the same boosts, and KOing your team.

Borutorosu: Evil, evil thing. Maybe it's because my attacks seem to miss around it, but it's pretty scary. After one Nasty Plot, its attacks get deadly, after 2, hope you have something faster(or once again, a scarfed Ditto ><).

[Amethyst]

Oh, how could I forget those two?

[b]Urugumosu-[/b] Never caused me any problems at all- mind the fact I usually have Rocks up, and I have an Aqua Jet ready to revenge kill at any time. But this thing doesn't scare me.

[b]Voltolos-[/b] Bullet, you can't be faster than this thing. Because of Mischievous Heart, it can always Thunder Wave off the get-go, and proceed to sweep its slower opponent. This thing definitely tore me up because I'd forgotten about that.

[Ikaru]

[quote]Jaroda- Thiiiiiiiis bitch. Note I only have two ice moves on my team, and if Sharpedo isn't SpeedBoosted already Jaroda seems to be faster than that or Starmie. Even a +2 Leaf Storm is basically a KO on anything on my team except Nattorei- who can only hope to explode with enough force to allow Kingdra's Outrage to take it out. If Jaroda runs Sub or Screens, both of which I've seen, it's all over for me. Never saw it attack with anything but Leaf Storm though. Something with Herbivore might counter.[/quote]

Zeburaika has worked once for me, the only time I've had the chance to try it, using Nitro Charge. Without the ability to use Leaf Storm, Jaroda's little more than a nuisance.

[N8theGr8]

That Ditto. As much as I hate it, he really deserves it.

I mean, how would [i]YOU[/i] feel if you were NU EVERY generation...since you were released? Not to mention, you've been around since 1st gen, where just about every other Pokemon was at least decent at some point. And finally, Ditto gets to shine. Recently, I've learned that the biggest counter to Ditto is Paralyze, mainly Borotorosu, who can easily threaten Ditto with a priority Thunder Wave, or Nasty Plot if he switches and proceed to sweep. Another great way to take Ditto out is with Shadow Tag Scarf Chandelier. If Ditto's using a Fighting or Normal move, this makes matters even easier. However, you must be careful to not come in and kill yourself! Other than that...Ditto's a bitch to take out. Little beats your already set up Pokemon WITH a scarf.

Oh, and after Ditto's Paralyzed, he's useless. Now to say another that I haven't seen listed:

[b]ZOROARK[/b]

Oh, Illusion. Talk about a living hell. You're forced to mind games into whether to attack thinking it's Zoroark, or fleeing in case it's a counter. Granted, Zoro's disguise is near useless after turn 1, but that's really all he needs to set up and go...except for Ditto, that is. >_<

Other than that, Zoroark's got some pretty nice things going for him. Access to awesome offensive stats, Agility, Nasty Plot, AND Swords Dance are all just amazing. Running them according to who you're pretending to be might buy you an extra turn. But obviously, Illusion and the mind games it brings with it are going to be HELLISH. And another...

[b]BLAZIKEN[/b]

Had to list him. What's that, Infernape? You're faster? Not with motherfucking SPEED BOOST you aren't. Yeah, after he sets up, the only possible thing to stop Blaziken is a Ditto, again, just like every other Pokemon that sets up ever. And...while we're on the topic of fire types...

[b]MOTHRA[/b]

Dunno his actual name, but man oh MAN is he a beast. Get rid of Stealth Rock, set up a butterfly dance, and proceed to sweep. Again, Ditto stops him, but it's a bit harder if you run Flame Dance, Bug Buzz, and HP Ice because he resists all but the latter, and the +1 Special Defense allows him to live when he's at 100% health. Mothra can set up another Butterfly dance and be able to kill Ditto. Oh, and one I was surprised to not see...

[b]SALAMENCE/GYARADOS/WARUBIARU[/b]

Notice something? Yeah, they all have Overconfidence/EarthquakeSpiral (Same thing, different names). In case you don't know, Overconfidence gives +1 attack after EVERY KO.This is because Salamence and Gyarados needed to get even better (sarcasm). Oh, and let's not forget Scarf Warubiaru, who can actually sweep if Overconfidence picks up a few boosts. All three of these guys are going to become huge threats in B/W, and it's easy to see why.

[Ikaru]

Ditto was the first Pokemon to be established, I think you guys can stop mentioning it now... We get it. >>

[Bullet]

Am I the only one who thinks Zoroark is overrated?

[Ikaru]

[quote name='Bullet' post='5571' date='Oct 14 2010, 05:53 PM']Am I the only one who thinks Zoroark is overrated?[/quote]

Nope, it's not as awesome as I once thought...
You just need to pay attention to detail, assuming Zoroark isn't their lead. I still claim that I used it first, so blah to all of you! D:<

[Amethyst]

[quote]pay attention to detail[/quote]
I lose.

No, I know Zoroark won't be making any games by itself any time soon, but mindgames can swing in it your favor, and it certainly is going to be a fun new element.

[N8theGr8]

It's only attraction is the mind games it plays. Zoroark is only as good as the player is at predicting it. It's frail and can easily be OHKO'd by most attacks that it doesn't resist, especially with all of the hard hitting pokes of Gen V.

[Ninpen]

Doryuzu is very underrated.

Consider: Its ability Sand Throw doubles its speed in a sandstorm, making it arguably an unstoppable force: I run 604 speed if I have sandstorm up.

[Amethyst]

If you're calling Doryzuu underrated, you haven't been keeping up on your reading around the bigger meta-game sites. Doryzuu was incredibly over-hyped for weeks- I quote, from a proposed article on Smogon:
"Pokemon will rise and fall from favor based on their ability, or lack their of to check or counter [Doryzuu]"
Everyone made a such a big deal about Sand Throw for so long- then we get in game, and, yeah, it's good, and yeah, a +2 Doryzuu in sand is going to hurt. But it's not the meta-game breaker we thought it would be.

[N8theGr8]

Let me elaborate on some other threats:

[b]Victini[/b]

Cool guy to run specs/scarf on. His movepool is massive, 100 all around stats, and Victory Star, his ability, make even Thunder a viable option (provided it's not used on a sun team... >_<). However, Fire/Psychic is bad typing which may hinder his capabilities...but his orgasmic cry more than makes up for that.

[b]Borotorosu...is that how you spell it?[/b]

[s]Amazing that he's not listed yet.[/s] Yeah, this guy is pretty much the end of Stealth Rock suicide leads. What's that, Aerodactyl? Your base speed ties with Jolteon? Yeah, well that doesn't matter when I have a priority Taunt AND priority Thunder Wave to use. Also, he's good at using Nasty Plot with pseudo-BoltBeam coverage (TBolt, HP Ice).

[b]Erufuun[/b]

ERUFUUN THE ELEPHANT, WATCH HIM BLOW...a priority Leech Seed and substitute stall. Since he has the same ability as Borotorosu, he gets priority on all of his non-damaging moves. That is to say, being able to put a PKMN to sleep/paralyze, leech seed it, and substall all before it. Pretty awesome, but I haven't seen it all too often.

[b]Armaldo[/b]

Armaldo. Why is he better now? Because he gets Swift Swim, which easily makes up for his abysmal speed and lets him use Swords Dance...and then sweep. Granted, Ditto stops him, but Ditto stops EVERY set-up and go sweeper, bar Trick Room ones.

[b]Kokoromori[/b]

While not a [i]real[/i] threat, I feel like a Simple Calm Mind is too good to pass up here. At least Nintendo gave something else Simple besides Bibarel...but then again, this one is ugly, too. But yeah, +2 Special Attack AND +2 Special Defense is always good when you have Base 114 speed.

[b]Espeon[/b]

Espeon has a new trick up her sleeve: Magic Mirror. ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING bar damage is bounced back at the user. This includes: Status, ENTRY HAZARDS, and many others. Oh, and a Special attack that targets Defense is a great new addition for it as well.

[b]Goruugu[/b]

The Machamp with better defenses. Machamp = No Guard and DynamicPunch, and Goruugu also gets this fantastic combination. Ground/Ghost typing isn't that bad either, with 3 immunities. Oh, and he gets Rock Polish to set up.

[b]Dennis[/b]

Nope, I'm not gonna post his real name. Bug/Steel is fantastic typing, Dennis isn't exactly frail, and he gets boosting moves that include Rock Polish and Charge Beam. Oh, and he has 130 Attack AND Special attack. You don't need much more reason to use the beast that is Dennis.

[b]Porygon2[/b]

Now, Porygon2 was really underrated last Generation. NU is a bit harsh for a Pokemon I know deserves at least UU. Oh, what's that, you say? Evolution Stone boosts BOTH defensive stats? Yeah, Pory2 now has defenses even able to take the hardest hits of 5th gen...and I'm pretty sure he's the first one here to not be countered by Ditto! Oh, and Trace is even better when now these new Pokemon are running around with awesome abilities: Mummy, Speed Boost, and SHADOW TAG all being perfect examples. Porygon2 will now become greater than his evolution, similar to how Chansey might overthrow Blissey for the exact same reason.


EDIT: Apparently Borotorosu has been listed twice...I fail. >_<

[Ikaru]

[url="http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80122"]Is my "rage"quit still unjustified, N8?[/url]

This is probably the same article Ame mentioned earlier, but, I think I've given it enough time to settle in, rather than an article based solely on hype.

[quote]Alright, so, Doryuuzu basically [i]defines[/i] the Gen V metagame. Everything about the metagame revolves around your Doryuuzu sweeping and your opponent's Doryuuzu dying. Pokemon rise and fall from favor just because they check or are beaten by this mole. Just take a look at the below set to get an idea of what he's capable of.[/quote]

Still has that very same sentence.

[Network]

No-one mentioned Landlos?

After a set up its a monster.

Landlos = Randorosu

[Bullet]

Network is a genius
Yeah, I've Doro'd twice as many people at least with Ran(doro)su than mole, not a joke. Thing's an absolute monster late game, or heck, early to mid game sometimes.

lol no one has mentioned Latias/Latios