Tier Changes II

[Amethyst]

Round 2. FAITO.

Pokemon marked in Red are proposed to move up in tiers. Pokemon marked in Blue are proposed to move down in tiers.

Ubers (Pokemon banned from the OverUsed tier):

Arceus, Darkrai, Deoxys, Deoxys-A, Deoxys-S, Dialga, Giratina, Giratina-O, Groudon, Ho-Oh, Kyogre, Lugia, Manaphy, Mewtwo, Palkia, Rayquaza, Reshiram, Shaymin-S, Zekrom

OverUsed (Pokemon banned from the Borderline tier)*:

Alakazam, Blaziken, Breloom, Bronzong, Chandelure, Chansey, Cloyster, Conkeldurr, Darmanitan, Deoxys-D, Ditto, Dragonite, Espeon, Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Garchomp, Genesect, Gengar, Gliscor, Gyarados, Haxorus, Heatran, Hippowdon, Hydreigon, Jellicent, Jirachi, Keldeo, Kingdra, Landorus, Latias, Latios, Lucario, Machamp, Meloetta, Metagross, Mew, Mienshao, Ninetales, Politoed, Porygon2, Reuniclus, Rotom-W, Salamence, Scizor, Serperior, Skarmory, Slowbro, Starmie, Suicune, Swampert, Tentacruel, Terrakion, Thundurus, Tyranitar, Vaporeon, Victini, Volcarona, Weavile, Whimsicott, Wobbuffet, Zapdos

*A note about Reborn's OU:

One of the greatest appeals of Reborn is that we do not follow Smogon tiering. Drizzle+SwiftSwim will not be banned here in the foreseeable future, and if it is (unlikely), SandStream+SandRush and Drought+Chlorophyll will go right along with it. Pokemon like Blaziken and Garchomp that have been banned by Smogon are probably not going to make it to Ubers here for the sake of preserving a (reasonably balanced) environment in which they can still be used. Shadow Tag Chandelure is another such case, but we have had an in depth discussion on it recently in which justification for its ban could not be logically resolved.

Borderline (Pokemon banned from the UnderUsed tier):

Abomasnow, Aerodactyl, Ambipom, Azelf, Blissey, Celebi, Cresselia, Crobat, Dusknoir, Empoleon, Feraligatr, Forretress, Golurk, Heracross, Infernape, Jolteon, Kyurem, Ludicolo, Mamoswine, Mandibuzz, Ninjask, PorygonZ, Quagsire, Roserade, Sableye, Scrafty, Sharpedo, Shaymin, Smeargle, Snorlax, Staraptor, Togekiss, Toxicroak, Wynaut, Yanmega, Zoroark

UnderUsed (Pokemon banned from the LittleUsed tier):

Accelgor, Alomomola, Amoongus, Arcanine, Archeops, Azumarill, Bisharp, Braviary, Carracosta, Clefable, Cobalion, Cofagrigus, Cradily, Crustle, Donphan, Dugtrio, Durant, Dusclops, Electivire, Escavalier, Flygon, Froslass, Gallade, Galvantula, Gorebyss, Gothitelle, Hitmonlee, Hitmontop, Houndoom, Kabutops, Krookodile, Lapras, Lilligant, Magnezone, Milotic, Moltres, Nidoking, Omastar, Raikou, Registeel, Rotom-C, Rotom-F, Rotom-H, Rotom-S, Sandslash, Sawsbuck, Sceptile, Scolipede, Seismitoad, Slowking,Steelix, Stoutland, Swellow, Tornadus, Umbreon, Venomoth, Venusaur, Virizion, Volbeat, Xatu

LittleUsed (Pokemon banned from NeverUsed tier):

Absol, Aggron, Altaria,Armaldo, Articuno, Bastiodon, Beheeyem, Bibarel, Blastoise, Bouffalant, Cacturne,Charizard, Claydol, Crawdaunt, Drapion, Drifblim, Druddigon, Eelektross,Emboar, Entei, Exeggutor, Exploud, Ferroseed, Floatzel, Gardevoir, Gigalith, Glaceon, Gligar, Golem, Hariyama, Hippopotas, Hitmonchan, Honchkrow, Huntail, Jumpluff, Kangaskhan, Kingler, Klinklang, Lanturn, Leafeon, Leavanny, Lickilicky, Liepard, Luxray, Magmortar, Manectric, Medicham, Mesprit, Miltank, Mismagius, Muk, Musharna, Nidoqueen, Pinsir, Primeape, Probopass, Qwilfish, Raichu, Rampardos, Rapidash,Regice, Regigigas, Regirock, Relicanth, Rhyperior, Samurott, Sawk, Scyther, Shedinja, Shiftry, Shuckle, Sigilyph, Simipour, Simisear,Slaking, Spiritomb, Snover, Swoobat, Tangrowth, Throh, Torterra, Typhlosion, Ursaring, Uxie, Vanilluxe,Victreebel, Vulpix, Walrein, Weezing, Whiscash, Zangoose

NeverUsed (Pokemon not banned from any tier):

Ampharos, Arbok, Ariados, Audino, Banette, Basculin, Bayleef, Beartoc. Beautifly, Beedrill, Bellossom, Bidoof, Boldore, Bronzor, Burmy, Butterfree, Camerupt, Carnivine, Castform, Charmeleon, Chatot, Cherrim, Chimecho, Chinchou, Cinccino, Clefairy, Combusken, Corsola, Cottonee, Croagunk, Croconaw, Cryognal, Delcatty, Delibird, Dewgong, Dewott, Dodrio, Dragonair, Drowzee, Ducklett, Dunsparce, Duosion, Dustox, Eelektrik, Ekans, Electabuzz, Electrode, Emolga, Exeggcute, Farfetch'd, Fearow, Flareon, Foongus, Fraxure, Garbodor, Gastrodon, Girafarig, Glalie, Gloom, Golbat, Golduck, Gothorita, Granbull, Graveler, Grimer, Grotle, Grumpig, Gulpin, Gurdurr, Heatmor, Hypno, Illumise, Jigglypuff, Jynx, Kadabra, Kecleon, Koffing, Kricketune, Ledian, Lickitung, Lileep, Linoone, Lombre, Lopunny, Lumineon, Lunatone, Luvdisc, Machoke, Magcargo, Magmar, Magneton, Mantine, Maractus, Marowak, Marshtomp, Masquerain, Mawile, Meditite, Meganium, Mespirit, Metang, Mienfoo, Mightyena, Minun, Misdreavus, Mr.Mime, Munchlax, Murkrow, Natu, Nidorina, Nincada, Noctowl, Octillery, Onix, Pachirisu, Palpitoad, Paras, Parasect, Pelliper, Persian, Phione, Pidgeot, Pidgeotto, Pignite, Pikachu, Piloswine, Pineco, Plusle, Poliwhirl, Poliwrath, Primeape, Pupitar, Purrloin, Purugly, Rapidash, Raticate, Rhydon, Riolu, Scraggy, Seaking, Sealeo, Seel, Servine, Seviper, Shelgon, Shellos, Shelmet, Shieldon, Simisage, Skuntank, Slowpoke, Solrock, Spinda, Stantler, Staravia, Staryu, Stunfisk, Sudowoodo, Sunflora, Swablu, Swalot, Swanna, Tangela, Tauros, Tentacool, Togetic, Torkoal, Tropius, Unfezant, Unown, Venonat, Vespiquen, Vigoroth, Vileplume, Vullaby, Wailord, Wartortle, Watchog, Weepinbell, Whirlipede, Wigglytuff, Wingull, Woobat, Wooper, Zebstraika, Zweilous

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Descriptions for all of these choices are found in the posts below, tier by tier.

Rule #1- Discussion of these Tiers should be kept off of the main server chaat.

Back channels are fine, and posting the log if something is decided might be nice- but for the most part let's try and keep tier discussion to the forum (server talk about tiers tends to turn hostile). Preferably this topic, but if a single Pokemon warrants a high amount of debate, a separate topic can be made for it.

Rule #2- ITT: Opinions

And chances are, someone does not share the same opinion as you. But we are contesting ideas, not people. Remain respectful of those ideas, and the people behind them.

The Pokemon currently listed to be un/banned are not set in stone, however, we WILL vote for them. Pokemon can be added to this list if there is a suggestion and a Second for it. As discussion goes on, I will update the below posts with any other suggested Pokemon, as well as summations of the defense for already-listed ones.

Discussion will be open for one or two weeks. If, by Monday the 23rd, there is no continued discussion on this or peripheral threads, we will vote then. If there is, it will be post-poned one week.

After that vote has been resolved, tiers will be adjusted, and discussion will be open for another two weeks to make any final changes (after everything moves around, there might be a few things unbalanced again) so after two more weeks, a third and final vote will be had on any new propositions. Concerning this third period, Pokemon may not go into double jeopardy unless there is significant reason for them to be reconsidered. For instance, suppose Celebii drops down to UU, but Crobat stays in BL. It then might turn out Celebii is too powerful in UU- Crobat could be reccomended to drop down to UU to serve as a counter for the new UU Celebii with Taunt, Brave Bird and 4x U-Turn. After several more weeks a final vote will be had, and after that, tiers will be considered settled again.

Scoring system:

Votes are scored on point, not majority:

Ubers- 10 points

OU- 8 points

BL- 6 points

UU- 4 points

LU- 2 points

NU- 0 points

Outliers (more than one tier in the reverse suggested direction, more than three in the intended) will be removed except in special cases (like Thundurus. ._.). Point values will be averaged, and scored as such:

Ubers- 9+ points

OU- 7-9 points

BL- 5-7 points

UU- 3-5 points

LU- 1-3 points

NU- Below 1 point

This topic is now open for discussion! Remember, keep it all off of main chat, please!

[Amethyst]

Ubers (Pokemon banned from the OverUsed tier):

Arceus, Darkrai, Deoxys, Deoxys-A, Deoxys-S, Dialga, Giratina, Giratina-O, Groudon, Ho-Oh, Kyogre, Lugia, Manaphy, Mewtwo, Palkia, Rayquaza, Reshiram, Shaymin-S, Zekrom

Pokemon to be unbanned:

Deoxys-S:

The bans of Deoxys-S and neutral have been questioned by outside visitors numerous times. Looking at their stats, both Attack forme and neutral do appear to pose a serious threat to the metagame, however the Speed forme, while strong, does not have the raw offensive power to dominate (95/95) and thereby abuse its speed in a metagame-altering way.

[Amethyst]

OverUsed (Pokemon banned from the Borderline tier)*:

Alakazam, Blaziken, Breloom, Bronzong, Chandelure, Chansey, Cloyster, Conkeldurr, Darmanitan, Deoxys-D, Ditto, Dragonite, Espeon, Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Garchomp, Genesect, Gengar, Gliscor, Gyarados, Haxorus, Heatran, Hippowdon, Hydreigon, Jellicent, Jirachi, Keldeo, Kingdra, Landorus, Latias, Latios, Lucario, Machamp, Meloetta, Metagross, Mew, Mienshao, Ninetales, Politoed, Porygon2, Reuniclus, Rotom-W, Salamence, Scizor, Serperior, Skarmory, Slowbro, Starmie, Suicune, Swampert, Tentacruel, Terrakion, Thundurus, Tyranitar, Vaporeon, Victini, Volcarona, Weavile, Whimsicott, Wobbuffet, Zapdos

*A note about Reborn's OU:

One of the greatest appeals of Reborn is that we do not follow Smogon tiering. Drizzle+SwiftSwim will not be banned here in the foreseeable future, and if it is (unlikely), SandStream+SandRush and Drought+Chlorophyll will go right along with it. Pokemon like Blaziken and Garchomp that have been banned by Smogon are probably not going to make it to Ubers here for the sake of preserving a (reasonably balanced) environment in which they can still be used. Shadow Tag Chandelure is another such case, but we have had an in depth discussion on it recently in which justification for its ban could not be logically resolved.

Pokemon to be unbanned:

Bronzong:

Although a highly effective set-up choice, with a high level of bulk and many viable options, I believe that- while Bronzong is perfectly viable in OU, it does not need to be banned to it. The Borderline tier still has enough raw power within to easily deal with it- though perhaps not without letting it fulfill its purpose, short of a taunt, and Bronzong does not particularly threaten BL with its lackluster attack power. In fact, Bronzong has been offensively diminished since its OU position in Gen 4, with the nerf of its most powerful offensive move, Explosion. I believe that, although viable in both tiers, Bronzong will not negatively influence the BL tier, yet its own use will thereby be encouraged.

Darmanitan:

140 base attack and 95 speed is certainly no laughing matter. Add Sheer Force onto that equation, and you have one sure sweep. Why, then, do I suggest it to be moved to BL? In OU, Darmanitan is overshadowed entirely by the better-typed (Stealth Rock-neutral) Haxorus, which has both greater speed and attack, as well as a comparable movepool. Darmanitan currently sees less than 2% of usage in OU. Although the Sheer Force ability is empowering, Darmanitan has few good moves to abuse it- limited to perhaps to Rock Slide, Flare Blitz or Fire Punch. Incidentally, Sheer Force actually hinders Darmanitan more than it helps, because it disables the effect of Flame Charge which would give Darmanitan enough Speed to preform a solid sweep on most teams. Without that boost, its best options are limited to a Scarf or Band set, severely diminishing its effectiveness. One could always try to use Zen Mode for an ability, but Zen Darmanitan isn't exactly viable, and the chance of it switching into a fetal position mid-battle is undesirable. However, BL may provide Darmanitan a chance to shine.

Ditto:

Ditto is a very curious case. It's extremely viable, no doubt- in literally every environement. However, Ditto currently sees less than 2% of use in OU. Based on that, it is obviously not dominating our metagame. Ditto is only as effective as the Pokemon sent in against it- meaning that it is equally potent in every tier from NU to Ubers. The real question is where we want to put it. I encourage lowering its tier because it serves as a check for set-up throughout the game, and because I see little reason to ban things arbitrarily. However, simly to start, we may see what happens if Ditto is moved down a single tier.

Keldeo

Keldeo currently sees less than 1.5% usage in OU. It boasts sweeping stats, with a high base speed and special attack, but lacks the Special movepool to use it effectively. In BL, Keldeo can be used much more effectively, and will also serve a purpose as a check to the now BL Blissey with its signature attack, Secret Sword.

Meloetta

In order to gain its more usable offenses, it has to waste a turn with an otherwise ineffective move. Additionally, once it's in that form, the move is unusable. The normal form has only mediocre stats, and although it has quite a versatile move pool both specially and physically, it remains a jack of all trades and master of none, as evidenced by its current usage rate, about 0.3%. Suitable for BL, perhaps, but not for OU.

Mew

With the standard chibi-legend stats and a movepool rivalled only by smeargle, how can you go wrong with a Pokemon like this? Again, the answer is that like Meloetta, while it can do a lot very well, there's almost nothing that it's the best at. It's best factor is its unpredicatability, which is a hat-trick at best. Mew has a better place in BL where it can't be overshadowed in just about anything it does.

Starmie

An effective offensive Pokemon with Rapid Spin cabilities. Natural Cure helps it anti-stall, but it doesn't have the bulk it needs to persist with Rapid Spin in a stallwar. Recover could be substituted, but it then loses its best functionalities as a sweeper, and there are better, more sustainable spinners in OU. Starmie, however, does compliment the power level of BL well.

Suicune

A stout wall, (100/115/115) boating a water-immunity and defensive options of RestTalk, Calm Mind and Reflect. The CroCune set is a time-tested strategy surving from Gen 4- now with Water Absorb, letting a good Suicune just about shut down the typical Rain team. The question is does that boost warrant its survival in the Gen 5 OU? In BL, Suicune may see increased usage from its current 1.5%

Swampert

Formerly an effective tank and set up, with increased standards in the metagame, Swampert no longer retains is Gen 4 glory. Its lack luster offense is unsuited for OU and its defense cannot keep up with other walls. Almost certainly BL material to keep with the other standards. Defenses are 100/110/90 with no reliable recovery outside of Rest. The Water Ground combo is certainly decent, however with their new toys, nearly all the others are more viable. Quagsire's Unaware counters set up, Whiscash can do that set up and Seismitoed has Swift Swim- leaving Swampert in the dust.

Victini

Another chibi-legend sitting in OU, but even lower in usage than Mew. Fire-Psychic is a very frail type, but Victini has some interesting toys, such as Death Gambit, which, while fun, is competitively innefective being that it costs it its own life. V-Generate is sure kick to the stomach but the stat drop prevents it from sweeping. Ultimately, the typing is too frail to be effective in OU- in borderline, however, there may be some hope to increase its current less-than-1.5% usage.

Weavile

Another Gen 4 Demon that hasn't quite kept with the times. Weavile previously found a nitch in the metagame in its ability to effectively outspeed and slaughter fast psychics and ghosts such as Gengar, Starmie, Alakazam, etc that might otherwise dominate. Ice Shard also proved very useful to counter Dragon Dancers. Weavile received few new toys in Gen 5, and with the addition of Ditto, Sand Rush, Prankster, Ferrothorn, and a host of other new walls, the previous threats are no longer as difficult to counter. As fighter in itself, Weavile suffers from the shortcomings of its types rather than its stats. 120 base attack is certainly respectable, but short of Giga Impact, a comeptitive no-no, Focus Punch, a move perhaps unsuited for Weavile, and Iron Tail, a terrible attacking type, Weavile has no physical moves with a base power of more than 80. Night Slash, sits at 70, Ice Punch at 75. Its lack luster STAB moves prevent it from KO'ing anything with out a super effective hit- which no effective Trainer will let a victim stay in for. Pursuit could be viable to counter the flee of things such as Gengar or Espeon, but on the whole it remains too far a cry for OU.

[Amethyst]

Borderline (Pokemon banned from the UnderUsed tier):

Abomasnow, Aerodactyl, Ambipom, Azelf, Blissey, Celebi, Cresselia, Crobat, Dusknoir, Empoleon, Feraligatr, Forretress, Golurk, Heracross, Infernape, Jolteon, Kyurem, Ludicolo, Mamoswine, Mandibuzz, Ninjask, PorygonZ, Quagsire, Roserade, Sableye, Scrafty, Sharpedo, Shaymin, Smeargle, Snorlax, Staraptor, Togekiss, Toxicroak, Wynaut, Yanmega, Zoroark

Pokemon to be banned:

Jolteon

Excelling since Gen 1, Jolteon is tried and true as ever. It has a new toy, too, in Volt Absorb, which allows it to stay strong- abuse its excellent speed, and keep the momentum of the battle in favor. Currently sitting at 5% usage, its stats are comparable to Gengar's, which continues to reign in OU, simply with less versatility. Jolteon has a strong ability to counter Rain teams, having the power to shut down Resdration stalls, and the speed to out run many Swift Swimmers if scarfed, making it an excellent counter to the weather metagame.

Mandibuzz

If there is ever a Pokemon that has been so grossly underestimated, it is Mandibuzz. Mandibuzz boasts a very solid typing, with two immunities, and only the weaknesses of the flying type. Its defensive stats are 110/105/95, with reliable recovery in the form of Roost. Its move pool is astoundingly versatile. One noteworthy move is the new attack Snarl, which has a 100% chance of lowering the opponents' Sp.Atk on top of doing damage. With its high defense and Snarl combined, it can be an effective wall and phazer to just about anything, even if hit super effective. The overcoat ability also allows it to function effectively in weather, making it ideal for OU as well.

Scrafty

Introducing, the amazing derpface Wonder Pokemon! It's a tank, it's a wall, it's a sweeper, it's in ur base killin ur guys and there's nothing you can do about it! Unlike many of the jack-of-all-trade Pokemon, a correctly-used Scrafty is a master of anything. Its remarkable bulk and unique, but effective (weak only to flying and fighting) typing lets it set up just about anything it wants, be that Amnesia, Bulk Up or bloody Dragon Dance. It has three excellent abilities all of which it has the stats to abuse to their full potential, and finds staying power no matter the case in the form of not only Drain Punch, but the Rest + Shed Skin combo

Togekiss

With a high base stat total, able to sweep, stall, phaze, status and flinchhax to hell, Togekiss remains a strong choice in nearly anything it wants to do. With reliable recovery, solid bulk and paralysis, or strong speed and sweeping stats, no matter the case, it's going to be a nuisance. Aura Sphere provides it a unique choice apart from many other fliers in its ability to reliably dent steel and rock types- anything that resists its hax- as well as take care off evasion spmmaers, helping to counter things such as Sand Veil Garchomp. With access to the now +2 priority, Extremespeed as well, though a weak offensive option, Togekiss has a boosted utility, and can still fit into the OU as in Gen 4.

Pokemon to be unbanned:

Celebi

Terribad typing with even fewer options than Mew- there's not much giving Celebi and edge other than its solid stats. Any leech seed or stall set can be better done by something else even within BL, and any sweep set still has more powerful options. On the other hand, in UU, Celebii would have fewer threats to itself, and less competition in excelling at what it can do.

Crobat

Crobat barely made the cut for borderline in 4th Gen, and it hasn't got any new toys. Not only that, but one of its best assets in 4th gen, to set up weather, has almost been entirely replaced by the incoming Drought and Drizzle pokemon. As an anti-lead or sweeper, Crobat functions only mediocrely compared to even some of BL's options.

Ludicolo

There are two scenarios in which Ludicolo is effective: Rain, and when you have a team of six of them dancing to music. Being that Species clause is generally enforced, and Drizzle doesn't exist below OU, Ludicolo has no business being in BL.

Roserade

Its previously lackluster speed has become relatively worse in comparisson to all of the other new Pokemon, and with Magic Mirror running around now, too, Toxic Spikes and Sleep Powder more risky than ever. Roserade doesn't have the power or movepool to be anything beyond a set up, and thereby has little place in BL.

[Amethyst]

UnderUsed (Pokemon banned from the LittleUsed tier):

Accelgor, Alomomola, Amoongus, Arcanine, Archeops, Azumarill, Bisharp, Braviary, Carracosta, Clefable, Cobalion, Cofagrigus, Cradily, Crustle, Donphan, Dugtrio, Durant, Dusclops, Electivire, Escavalier, Flygon, Froslass, Gallade, Galvantula, Gorebyss, Gothitelle, Hitmonlee, Hitmontop, Houndoom, Kabutops, Krookodile, Lapras, Lilligant, Magnezone, Milotic, Moltres, Nidoking, Omastar, Raikou, Registeel, Rotom-C, Rotom-F, Rotom-H, Rotom-S, Sandslash, Sawsbuck, Sceptile, Scolipede, Seismitoad, Slowking,Steelix, Stoutland, Swellow, Tornadus, Umbreon, Venomoth, Venusaur, Virizion, Volbeat, Xatu

Pokemon to be banned:

Electivire

Formerly an OU powerhouse in 4th gen, Electivire hasn't received anything new to play with, but its power remains undaunted. With a great selection of physical moves, its power closest matches the average of BL, rather than UU.

Sawsbuck

Sawsbuck is one of, if not the best Chlorophyll sweeper. With 95 base speed doubled, there's nothing in UU it won't outspeed. Throw that onto 100 Base attack, and acces to Swords Dance and fantastic coverage, you've got a monster. It has access to moves like megahorn, Wild Charge, Earthquake, and powerful STAB in the form Double Edge and Horn Leech which work great together, causing recoil and healing it

Slowking

Slowking has the exact same stats as Slowbro, and almost the same moves- except its more special-defensively oriented than Slowbro. It also has access to Nasty Plot making it a viable set up option, while retaining Slack Off for staying power. While Slowbro remains OU, there's no reason for Slowking to be left behind in UU.

Stoutland

Like Sawsbuck, Stoutland has good speed and solid Attack to back up its sweeps. Its move pool is respectable, though not as monsterous as Sawsbuck, and it only has Work Up to set up. It may not be as much of a threat to UU, but it is still surprisingly potent.

Venusaur

Previously recommended for BL, being among the best Chlorophyll sweepers in the game- with access to Sleep Powder, Growth, and a host of both physical and special moves. It has considerable bulk as well as staying power in Leech Seed or Synthesis. However, being that Vulpix will also be up for ban, Vensaur may not need to be risen if Vulpix does not.

Virizion

Virizion boasts a monsterous special defense, along with a respectable SpA. After a Calm Mind, it can really lay on the hurt- and finds recovery in the recently boosted Giga Drain as well. In UU, there are few Pokemon equipped to deal with it given that the legend-trio's special move ignores defense modifiers.

Pokemon to be unbanned:

Archeops

Great stats, great move pool, but its ability and a weakness to rocks makes it flat out unusable.

Azumarill

Azumarill has two fantastic abilities in the form of Huge Power, which it doesn't have the speed to abuse, (Choice Band Aqua Jet really doesn't go that far) and Sap Sipper, whiiiich, it doesn't have the moves to abuse, being that Sap Sipper is a Dream World ability, and Azumarill's best moves, for instance, Ice Punch to do something about those grass types in the first place- are from 4th gen.

Braviary

Good attack stat with mediocre speed- and Sheer Force. Problem? The only good move it has to abuse Sheer Force is Rock Slide. Not a serious threat.

Houndoom

Although it has two immunities, its frailty and rocks-weakness makes it unsuited to abuse them. If set up, Houndoom can be a passable Nasty Plot sweeper, but there are few oppourtunites alotted for it to gain that power- and even should it can be easily outsped still.

Lapras

Lapras has few viable options outside of rain which doesn't exist below OU. Therefore, there's nothing to be lost from moving it to, say, LittleUsed or even NU.

Moltres

With mediocre stats and a serverly lacking movepool, Moltres has very few effective options- it simply doesn't have the power to exist in UU.

Registeel

Registreel has phenominal defenses, but no reliable recovery beyond rest, and no solid means of attacking beyond Toxic- and there are plenty of counters to that even in LU. It might stall out a thing or two, but particularly in UU it won't be terribly effective.

Sandslash

Sandslash, like Venasaur, only finds its place due to Sand Rush. With no Sandstream, it's a far cry. If Hippowdon is restricted to a tier, there's no need to lower this, otherwise, it has no place in UU

Sawsbuck

Copy Sandslash; replace with Sawsbuck, Chlorophyll, Vulpix

Seismitoed

Although it can be a bulky water absorber, Pokemon like Cradily or Gastrodon will still outpreform it. Swift Swim is reasonably out due to lack of Drizzle (my how standards have fallen since 4th gen)

Steelix

Stealth Rocks, strong physical stats, aaaaand...? It can't tank special hits, nor does it have the speed to sweep with its strength.

[Amethyst]

LittleUsed (Pokemon banned from NeverUsed tier):

Absol, Aggron, Altaria, Armaldo, Articuno, Bastiodon, Beheeyem, Bibarel, Blastoise, Bouffalant, Cacturne, Charizard, Claydol, Crawdaunt, Drapion, Drifblim, Druddigon, Eelektross,Emboar, Entei, Exeggutor, Exploud, Ferroseed, Floatzel, Gardevoir, Gigalith, Glaceon, Gligar, Golem, Hariyama, Hippopotas, Hitmonchan, Honchkrow, Huntail, Jumpluff, Kangaskhan, Kingler, Klinklang, Lanturn, Leafeon, Leavanny, Lickilicky, Liepard, Luxray, Magmortar, Manectric, Medicham, Mesprit, Miltank, Mismagius, Muk, Musharna, Nidoqueen, Pinsir, Primeape, Probopass, Qwilfish, Raichu, Rampardos, Rapidash,Regice, Regigigas, Regirock, Relicanth, Rhyperior, Samurott, Sawk, Scyther, Shedinja, Shiftry, Shuckle, Sigilyph, Simipour, Simisear, Slaking, Spiritomb, Snover, Swoobat, Tangrowth, Throh, Torterra, Typhlosion, Ursaring, Uxie, Vanilluxe,Victreebel, Vulpix, Walrein, Weezing, Whiscash, Zangoose

Pokemon to be banned:

Absol

Decent speed, set-up, an assortment of attacking moves physically and a couple powerhouse hits specially for walls, Absol has a wide array of options along with a tremendous attack power and the strongest Sucker Punch in the game.

Crawdaunt

With Dragon Dance and Adabtability giving Crawdaunt some serious power, it has the potential to function in UU- and might in fact thereby be one of the only DD'ers in it.

Exeggutor

With 125 SAtk and its speed issues totally solved by Chlorophyll, Exeggutor can be a devastating lower-tier sweeper, and is possibly the best purely-special chlorophyll sweeper. With Harvest, it can also run a viable stall set.

Leafeon

What Leafeon lacks in coverage, it makes up for in bulk. Tack on Sun-boosted Synthesis to Chlorophyll+Swords Dance, and you've got one sweeper that isn't going anywhere. Dangerous for LU with Drought.

Liepard

Liepard is a weaker case because, like Ditto, its true power is only realised against stronger opponents. Foul Play gains damage depending on how high the opponent's attack is, meaning it can tear apart even resisting Pokemon like Ferrothorn, Scizor and Tyranitar if they have some boosts. This is where Swagger comes in, giving them those boosts and confusing them (meaning when they hit themselves, too, it hurts like hell). Because of this, Liepard is very high risk/high reward. If the opponent recovers from confusion and survives Foul Play, a +2 physical sweeper might tear apart the rest of the team (unless Ditto follows up, though this is only relevant if Ditto's tier is lowered). Liepard is reccomended because although its power is raw hax, it plays more effectively against higher tiers.

Regice

Everyone knows Stallrein; meet its stronger cousin. Regice has truly outrages defenses. Truly, truly, truly outrageous, with 200 base special defense and a respectable 100 physical. In hail, it can use the Stallrein strategy with its new Ice Body ability, and never go anywhere, ever.

Sigilyph

Magic Guard, Cosmic Power, and reliable recovery- Sigilyph plays like Clefable,only with the ability to Psycho Shift burns onto its target, making physical attackers even more useless. Played properly, it has few counters in OU- much less in LU. Putting this below Clefable is also questionable, considering its ability to temporarily null some of its weaknesses, its immunity and resists, and comprable stats (72/80/80 vs Clefable's 95/70/90). Although outdone by Reuniclus, Sigilyph can still find a place in UU if not BL

Weezing

When most people think physical walls, they think Skarmory. But next to that, Weezing is a certainly viable choice. Its hearty physical bulk is complimented by Will-o-Wisp, as well as Pain Split or rest. To hit Steel types it has a surprising Flamethrower attack, and on top of all of this, only a single weakness. Although it may not be BL material, Weezing can have a place in UU at least.

Pokemon to be unbanned:

Bibarel

Moody is banned to OU; Bibarel is useless otherwise.

Primeape

Ampharos

A pokemon thoroughly mediocre at everything, it has no special advantages to warrant its place in LU to begin with.

Qwilfish

Beartic

Armaldo

With Swift Swim Armaldo's single saving grace, and Drizzle banned to OU, Armaldo can safely go back to NU.

Rampardos

Monsterious attack, but neither the speed nor bulk to use it. It might get one kill normally before it gets KO'd but many NU pokemon can say the same by throwing on a simple Band.

Regigigas

Protect Stalling all it wants-Regigigas' abillity renders it virtually unusable, even in a tier such as this. It would be set up bait, or an easy kill regardless.

Relicanth

Qwilfish

Beartic

Armaldo

With Swift Swim Armaldo's single saving grace, and Drizzle banned to OU, Armaldo can safely go back to NU.

Throh

Unlike its cousin, Sawk, Throh does not have Sturdy to give it an upper-edge. Otherwise its mediocre sweeping stats and limited movepool make it a poor choice.

Vanilluxe

Although it has decent stats for sweeping, its move pool is highly restricted making it hardly a viable choice.

[Amethyst]

NeverUsed (Pokemon not banned from any tier):

Ampharos, Arbok, Ariados, Audino, Banette, Basculin, Bayleef, Beartoc. Beautifly, Beedrill, Bellossom, Bidoof, Boldore, Bronzor, Burmy, Butterfree, Camerupt, Carnivine, Castform, Charmeleon, Chatot, Cherrim, Chimecho, Chinchou, Cinccino, Clefairy, Combusken, Corsola, Cottonee, Croagunk, Croconaw, Cryognal, Delcatty, Delibird, Dewgong, Dewott, Dodrio, Dragonair, Drowzee, Ducklett, Dunsparce, Duosion, Dustox, Eelektrik, Ekans, Electabuzz, Electrode, Emolga, Exeggcute, Farfetch'd, Fearow, Flareon, Foongus, Fraxure, Garbodor, Gastrodon, Girafarig, Glalie, Gloom, Golbat, Golduck, Gothorita, Granbull, Graveler, Grimer, Grotle, Grumpig, Gulpin, Gurdurr, Heatmor, Hypno, Illumise, Jigglypuff, Jynx, Kadabra, Kecleon, Koffing, Kricketune, Ledian, Lickitung, Lileep, Linoone, Lombre, Lopunny, Lumineon, Lunatone, Luvdisc, Machoke, Magcargo, Magmar, Magneton, Mantine, Maractus, Marowak, Marshtomp, Masquerain, Mawile, Meditite, Meganium, Mespirit, Metang, Mienfoo, Mightyena, Minun, Misdreavus, Mr.Mime, Munchlax, Murkrow, Natu, Nidorina, Nincada, Noctowl, Octillery, Onix, Pachirisu, Palpitoad, Paras, Parasect, Pelliper, Persian, Phione, Pidgeot, Pidgeotto, Pignite, Pikachu, Piloswine, Pineco, Plusle, Poliwhirl, Poliwrath, Primeape, Pupitar, Purrloin, Purugly, Rapidash, Raticate, Rhydon, Riolu, Scraggy, Seaking, Sealeo, Seel, Servine, Seviper, Shelgon, Shellos, Shelmet, Shieldon, Simisage, Skuntank, Slowpoke, Solrock, Spinda, Stantler, Staravia, Staryu, Stunfisk, Sudowoodo, Sunflora, Swablu, Swalot, Swanna, Tangela, Tauros, Tentacool, Togetic, Torkoal, Tropius, Unfezant, Unown, Venonat, Vespiquen, Vigoroth, Vileplume, Vullaby, Wailord, Wartortle, Watchog, Weepinbell, Whirlipede, Wigglytuff, Wingull, Woobat, Wooper, Zebstraika, Zweilous

Pokemon to be banned:

Amoongus

Its considerable bulk (114/70/80) is just the first of its many assets. Throw in Spore, Synthesis, Clear Smog to counter set up, Rage Powder, Giga Drain, on top of two very usable abilities, Effect Spore and Regenerator which makes it perfect for quick switching in and out- and you have a top notch staller. Amoongus can tank strong super effective hits, spore, and heal up, even against top-tier Pokemon. It has absolutely no business being in NU, especially when Foongus can stay down here to take its place.

Basculin

Adaptability along with powerful STAB attacks makes Basculin a severe threat to NU. A double power Aqua Jet also gives it good utility in addition to its power, giving it the ability to propel a game with its strong offensive momentum.

Butterfree

Never thought you'd see the day! Although only three families get spore, what most people to realise is that Butterfree has its effective equivallent- Sleep Powder + CompoundEyes results in a 97% accuracy sleep move. Throw Quiver Dance on top of that, and Butterfree can actually be a viable sleep-sweep-stall Pokemon. If sleep Clause is unchecked, it's going to take a good multi-hit move or phaser, and a bit of luck, to stop it. Butterfree can easily prevail in an LU tier- possibly as high as UU. However, this is clause dependent, making the choice a matter of popular preference.

Cinccino

Cinccino has one very crucial problem being in NU- It's too f**king cute. I mean look at it- just look at it! The way its furry little tails wrap around its neck like a scarf? It's sooo cute! And self reliant! There's something admirable about that, mhm. ...Wait, if it needs a scarf, do you suppose it's cold...? ...Poor thing! We need to adopt them- get them out of the harsh wild! ALL of them! Take them all home and just cuddle them forever so they can be warm and snugglefull! CUTENESS TOO OP.

Cinccino for real

With 115 base speed and a respectable 95 attack, Cinccino has a good deal of potential. It gets the ability Skill Link- a godsend from Gamefreak given that it gets stab on its mutlihit signature move Tail Slap, and excellent coverage in multihit Rock Blast and Bullet Seed. Cinccino has several viable options for a fourth move, such as Thunder Wave, U-Turn or Encore, all of which provide excellent utility, particularly to a mid-tier team. Cinccino's strength doesn't warrant NU- UU would be more appropriate.

Combusken

Eviolite Combusken is a far cry- what Blaziken has over it is greater sweep stats (120/80 vs 85/55) and a stronger movepool (Combusken does not learn Hi Jump Kick, Fire Punch, Earthquake or Stone Edge. However, Combusken still has full access to Baton Pass, as well as strong set up given Eviolite tankiness and Swords Dance + Speed Boost. With moves like Sky Upper Cut, Flare Blitz, Rock Slide, etc. Combusken can still lay down the hurt on lower tiers. Although anything above LU may be pushing it, Combusken can still pose a strong threat to the NU metagame.

Cottonee

Few Whimsicott attack, and when they do, fewer use their speed to begin with. Between Cottonee and Whimsicott, defensive stats are (60/85/75 vs Cottonee's 40/60/50). Eviolite gives Cottonee a stronger defense at the cost of less health, however, this actually works in Cottonee's favor, thanks to Leech Seed. Leech Seed restores 6.25% of the enemies' health, meaning the less max health that Cottonee has, the greater the % restored from the absolute result of the sapped % will be. If it exceeds 25%, which with 190 health at level 100, it often will, then Cottonee can sustain itself on subs until the cows come home. Cottonee also has access to all of Whimsicott's utility options, such as Stun Spore, Grasswhistle, and Encore.

Croconaw

Eviolite Croconaw plays the same game as Combusken- Tanky set up to high damage. Like Feraligatr, Croconaw has Sheer Force and Dragon Dance (and sweeping stats Feraligatr's 105/78vs Croconaw 80/58). Unlike Combusken, Croconaw has full access to its evolved counter parts' best moves- many of which activate Sheer Force: Crunch, Ice Punch, Waterfall, Rock Slide, etc.Although it loses the potential for the free Life Orb boost, Eviolite combined with its bulk should reliably give it enough bulk to get two Dragon Dances off, making it a serious threat to NU.

Cryognal

Cryognal is a great wall, with 135 base SpDef, Acid Armor, and Recover. It also has access to Dual Screens, and Confuse Ray making it a great support, and it has a high base speed (105) to use them. Although thanks to the weak Ice typing, it isn't cut out for higher tiers, Cryognal can do far better than NU.

Electrode

With a base 130 speed and access to the scaling Electro Ball, with a Scarf or Specs, Electrode can seriously dish out the damage, especially on NU's slower Pokemon. The Aftermath ability also checks the sashes of any physical contact attackers, making it a serious threat.

Ferroseed

Ferrothorn: 74/131/116-- Ferroseed: 44/91/86. Ferroseed loses a lot of offensive power from Ferrothorn making it half the threat, but it still has all the utility, setting up hazards, and leech seed. Leech Seed is particularly nasty on Ferroseed given Iron Barbs, and Eviolite-boosted defenses sitting around ~90 at base. The low health, as for Cottonee, actuallyworks in its advantage. Ferroseed can handle many OU threats- although outdone by its evolution, it absolutely should not be in NU, and possibly has high as BL.

Fraxure

Again with the tank set up! Fraxure reads out 117/67 vs Haxorus' 147/97. But given Eviolite, lower tiers and the bulk to reliably get off two Dragon Dances, Fraxure can be just as menacing as Haxorus in this environment.

Gligar

Potent in sand teams and out, even in OU- Eviolite Gligar holds 65/105/65 against Gliscor's 75/125/75. As you can see, with Roost, Gligar can actually be more potent than Gliscor as a physical wall, and still has other options such as Swords Dance and Taunt for set up and utility.

Golduck

Like Lickilicky and Altaria, Golduck's placement will hinge on the fates of Vulpix, Snover and Hippopotas. Golduck is a popular weather counter with Cloud Nine and scarf, having the speed, movepool and resistance to leave a dent in SandRush/Chlorophyll/SwiftSwim sweepers while their weather is down.

Gurdurr

With Bulk Up, Eviolite and Drain Punch, Gurdurr is a horrific tank, getting great power on its punching attacks from Iron Fist anyway despite its lower attack. Payback provides it exceptional coverage and it fills a unique niche in the lower tiers being a defensive fighting type.

Jynx

Jynx has great sweeping stats, further boosted by Lovely Kiss,putting the enemy to sleep to give it time to set up Nasty Plot, and proceeding to sweep with moves like Ice Beam, Psychic, Energy Ball and Focus Blast. Jynx also comes with an immunity to water in dry skin, making it a good choice for, or for countering Rain teams.

Kyurem

Originally BL, glitched down to NU. can haz put back pls?

Machoke

Machoke still carries a hefty 100 base attack, along with increased bulk, priority, and the elemental punches. It has no reduced access to the No Guard/DynamicPunch combo, making it perhaps an even more poignant choice for bulky confuse-tank than Machamp itself. However for the time being, it certainly does not deserve a place in NU.

Magneton

A bulky physical wall with Analytic or Sturdy giving it a strong chance to score a kill, Magneton is a great tank with a good movepool warranting its possible ban to LU

Marowak

With Thick Club, the defensively heavy Marowak reaches over 500 attack. With STAB Earthquake and an assortment over other moves, Marowak can obliterate the NU game.

Murkrow

Murkrow now has Prankster ability, making it the best Perish Trapper in the game. Priority recover in the form of Roost allows it to null any attacks super effective to it, which gives the little thing deceptive sustainability along with Eviolite. In comes priority Mean Look, followed by Perish Song. Murkrow is free to switch out as it pleases, in the mean time stalling with Roost, and surprisingly- Feather Dance, which sharply lowers the opponents' attack. A well played Murkrow is even capable of countering Excadrill in sand. Although it's a very tricky Pokemon to use, it remains too strong for NU

PorygonZ

PorygonZ is a potent sweeper or or revenge killer with a scarf, boasting a high SpA, large special movepool, STAB in the form of TriAttack, and sometimes even an instant boost from Download. PorygonZ is a noteworthy threat to the NU metagame, finding a better place in UU or LU.

Raikou

.....So Raikou was glitched, I think it's supposed to be in UU? let'smoveitbackthereQQ

Rhydon

A fantastic tank with strong coverage, Rhydon can dent even OU threats. In NU, it's simply too strong to let loose.

Tangela

A great physical wall with access to Leech Seed, Amensia, Giga Drain, and the Regenerator ability, Tangel has stalling options unprecedented in NU

Thundurus

...

Okay, guys, this is an embarassing glitch, Thundurus is supposed to be OU to begin with, but it wasn't; can we all just agree to let that be fixed? QQ

Xatu

Especially given Eviolite Natu's existance, Xatu and its fantastic new ability does not deserve to be in NU- especially given that this bird can get the bulk on and tank even some OU threats. Although outdone by Espeon, Xatu may be more appropriate in UU or BL.

[A Pink Cheetah]

All of my discussions (Honesty, I think that I was the only one to post there seriously. No one else posted anything to counter my arguments, or agree with them. -.- ) were on the original thread, and I don't have nearly the amount of patience to copy and paste them all here. Amethyst, if you could, that would be kickass. (Also, Rupees should be given for tier discussion contribution. 25 per each argument for each Pokémon, perhaps? That'll help get people to contribute.)

[Neo]

Nah. We didn't get paid for setting up LU. Why should there be a reward for bettering a place you're gonna be on everyday? Isn't the fact that you're shaping the community reward enough?

[A Pink Cheetah]

Well, consider this. I was the only one who posted any argument at all. Everyone else was like "kwhatev" without giving any of these some thought. They were ok with Azumarril going down in rank when it can quite easily hold it's own in battle in UU and OU. It would destroy the lower tiers. Especially with the perfect type coverage of Ice Fighting in the form of Ice Punch and Superpower. Add something like 25 Rupees for assisting with the tier discussions would be incentive for people to post arguments for and against certain tier movements. And Amethyst, could you uh... Please post my tier arguments?

[Cyrus]

>Milotic UU.

Explain Ame, I would love to hear your reasons.

[Amethyst]

That's how it was before, and personally I don't see it as a threat to be moved up, nor weak enough to be moved down. If you want to make a case for it, by all means, go ahead, and it'll be added.

[Neo]

Well, consider this. I was the only one who posted any argument at all. Everyone else was like "kwhatev" without giving any of these some thought. They were ok with Azumarril going down in rank when it can quite easily hold it's own in battle in UU and OU. It would destroy the lower tiers. Especially with the perfect type coverage of Ice Fighting in the form of Ice Punch and Superpower. Add something like 25 Rupees for assisting with the tier discussions would be incentive for people to post arguments for and against certain tier movements. And Amethyst, could you uh... Please post my tier arguments?

Well, consider this. I was the only one who posted any argument at all. Everyone else was like "kwhatev" without giving any of these some thought. They were ok with Azumarril going down in rank when it can quite easily hold it's own in battle in UU and OU. It would destroy the lower tiers. Especially with the perfect type coverage of Ice Fighting in the form of Ice Punch and Superpower. Add something like 25 Rupees for assisting with the tier discussions would be incentive for people to post arguments for and against certain tier movements. And Amethyst, could you uh... Please post my tier arguments?

In other words you want to get paid. Meh. I have no issues with these changes.

[Amethyst]

Copying posts

Deoxys-S is quite literally the fastest thing in Pokemon. Nothing outspeeds it, unless you bring in the rain, sun, or sand, or a scarf lead with over 504 speed, which is ratherhard to come by. The strongest priority move against Deo-S won't even work because it uses its speed to set up hazards, not to attack. (Talking about Sucker Punch, 160 power against Deo-S) Add on the Sash and Espeon's and Xatu's recent drop in usage, and you have to spin to get rid of the layers. While base 95 on each attacking stat is laughable, it shouldn't be underestimated with moves like Psycho Boost at its disposal. Keep in in Ubers is what I say. Helps keep the Metagame more balanced.

Keldeo has Hydro Pump and Secret Sword. Combined with HP Ice/ Ghost, it literally needs nothing else. After a Calm Mind, Hydro Pump has an extremely high chance of koing anything that it hits Neutral to, and Secret Sword helps remove the monstrous stall threats of both Blissey and Chansey, and even a specially defensive orientated Ferrothorn, with HP Ghost helping to take out Jellicent. Keldeo's usage stats are so low mainly because of the league banning legends and because almost none of the visitors who come by know that Keldeo is allowed in ladder matches.Why remove it from OU because of the league and the people who don't look at our tier list?

Meloetta is one of the most fearsome of 5th gen's newest additions, and can owe its usage stats to the same reason that Kedeo can. With base 128 special attack and special defense in Aria form with base 90 speed, it is like a Porygon-Z but with better defenses (Base 100 HP as well) and better typing, and makes for an excellent special sweeper with a Calm Mind set. Add on Relic Song, however, and it turns into a physical sweeper with base 100 HP, 128 attack, and 128 speed, with Return, Close Combat, and Stone Edge to work with, hitting almost everything super-effectively or neutrally. Usually run with a Life Orb, the physical set can take down threats like Terrakion, Cobalion, Kymin (Yes, the Sky form Shaymin. I mean seriously, look at the speed stats. Meloetta out speeds Skymin with 1 base speed higher and hits it with Stone Edge for Super effective damage). With Calm Mind, Psyshock, Relic Song (partially due to the additional 20% sleep chance it induces, and that base 75 STAB damage), and Focus Blast, the Aria form can function exceptionally well in OU and absolutely destroy in BL, and the Step form can function with it just as effeciently.

Starmie is regarded as the best rapid spinner due to its base 115 speed and 100 special attack, allowing it to hit hard and fast after spinning away Rocks and Spikes. Also due to its speed and power, it can effectively ruin Drizzle teams by running Thunder and a Timid nature with max speed EVs with a scarf, hitting an insane 541 speed, not only allowing it to outspeed Scarved Latios' but also a lot of Swift Swimmers, hitting them extremely hard with said Thunder. Starmie fills a nich that not many Pokemon can fill as effectively as it can. Keep it OU.

Crobat is fast, and makes for an excellent special sweeper with access to Sludge Bomb and Air Slash, not to mention it's speed allows it to compare with many others. It's typing allows it to 4x resist fighting attacks which are common absolutel everywhere, not to mention, access to Taunt allows it to stop set up sweepers and hazard users in their tracks due to its insane speed. Not to mention, without Crobat, there isn't exactly an effective Pokemon to use against Virizion when it moves up a tier.

Archeops is the strongest physical (Base stat wise) flying type that isn't also a dragon (Rock on, Rayquaza). And it also gets Acrobatics. Combined with the Flight Gem this is almost always guaranteed an ohko, and it is also fast enough to scare the pants off of anything wearing any. While its ability is certainly crippling, with Leftovers you can have a strong fighter capable of keeping his strength uo. Or you can go for the suicidal ohko everythign on the first hit style with Head Smash (It being the fastest Rock Type to get it and alo one of the most powerful (base 140 ain't no laughing matter). While Stealth Rock weak, unless it encounters something faster (In UU? Possible, aye.) or something with priority (also possible) it will stay over 50% to do it's ohkoing thing. While it's ability is crippling (Already mentioned this) unlike Regigigas (perhaps) and Slaking, it can come back and still rape even after its ability has taken effect. It shouldn't be removed from UU.

Azumarril say "Hi, I'm adorable, bulky, and has the third hardest hitting Waterfall, period. A perfect way to fuck up dragons and fire types alike, (and even having the ability to ohko Ferrothorn), it doesn't need speed in the least. Just beef up its HP and defense ad max out its attack and it will ohko almost every dragon short of Dnite with Ice Punch, and will even ohko Hydreigon with Superpower. A threat in OU, it easily holds its own in UU. Not to mention, if Virizion stays in UU, who will keep it in check in its own tier if Azumarril moves down?

Carracosta is laughable. After a Shell Smash it hits 358 speed if running a Jolly nature. Meaning that if it isn't running Jolly, a Jolly Cobalion can Sacred Sword it a second time. Or better yet, a Smashed Crustle's Earthquake will ko it after stealth rocks damage. It's 5 weaknesses are common enough, and a lot of the Pokemon that use these SE moves in UU are scarved or carry Sturdy as well and have a priority move. Take Donphan for instance. Carra Smashes, Don EQ's. Carra Aqua Jets (Unless it isn't running Aqua Jet in which case...) Don Ice Shards and Carracosta faints. Scarf Flygon EQ's, Carracosta Smashes. Scarf Flygon EQ's again, and Carracosta faints. Galvantula Thunders, Carracosta gets paralyzed. Hitmonlee Fake Outs and the High Jump Kicks/ Close Combats next turn. It's just too easy to ko, because unless you're running Carracosta as a lead, it's sturdy is going to be broken by hazards, which leaes it hilariously open to ohkos from SE attacks.

Sawsbuck, Sandslash, and Stoutland: With Vulpix and Hippopotas both in NU, access to the weather necessary to boost these three's speed is simple, and movement of that weather from NU to LU won't matter in the slightest to them, except to keep them where they are, if not move them up like what's happening to Venusaur. Because of its access to sun, it's being moved up, however, due to Sawsbuck's apparent inaccess to sun means that it is being proposed to be moved down a tier. Why does Venusaur get special treatment in this?

Steelix is a monster physical tank. While yes, its special defense is subpar (it is a generic pre-4th generation steel type), it makes up for it by being one of the few Pokemon to knockout both Cobalion's and Virizion's physical attacks without so much as denting Steelix's hard outer shell (Close Combat won't do more than 40% without a Dance boost from either of them) and Steelix hits back against Cobalion with EQ and Fire Fang for Virizion. It even takes EQs from Flygon while ohkoing in return with Ice Fang. Without Steelix, not many physical walls will remain specific to the UU tier to tank such physical hits.

Venusaur shouldn't move up if Sawsbuck, Stoutland, and Sandslash get dumped down a tier as it isn't logical. Venusaur gets boosted in tiers when those three get dumped in tiers for the exact same reason? And that being weather.

Hariyama is a great wall and physical attacker. It gets Thick Fat, which allows it to essentially resist Ice and Fire attacks, and it has base 120 base attack, on a base 120 base power STAB move, allowing it to remove powerful threats several tiers above it, such as Cobalion and Aggron on its own tier. It's also stupidly bulky with base 144 hp and only two weaknesses. If it gets moved down, it becomes that much harder to counter and ko.

Regice has the exact same thing as what is going on with Sandslash, Sawsbuck, etc, etc, etc. In fact. Victreebell, as well, has the same thing occur to it. However, one thing stands out about Regice's nomination to be bumped down a tier. Vanilluxe. This piece of crap has worse defensive stats, slightly better offensive ones, and a movepool worthy of Sheer Force Tauros if you remove Flamethrower and Thunderbolt and give it only Steel and Ice attacks. Vanilluxe for NU, s'il vous plait, keep Regice in LU and above.

Vanilluxe is my own nomination for REMOVAL from the LU tier. It is a useless, but adorable, Pokemon. Its movepool consists of Ice, Steel, Weather Ball, and Hidden Power offensive-wise. It's sad, pathetic, and overall adorable. But it just isn't LU material.

Combusken is hilariously frail. You have to run defense EVs just so tha it can take a hit, which means dipping from its attack (a hilariously measly base 85) or it's speed, which, if it doesn't run anything short of max, allows it to get stomped by Crawdaunt, who has the most powerful Waterfall in the game thanks to Adaptability. Oh, and also Crabhammer. After a Dragon Dance, if both are max and have speed boosting natures, it's a speed tie. If Combuskun is running maximum defenses and no speed or Attack EVs, then it gets murdered by Crabhammer/ Waterfall. Add on Basculin's Aqua Jet/ Waterfall, and the choice of even running this thing gets more and more hilarious. While good for Baton Passing, it's no good if it can't outspeed squat.

Cottonee: inb4Sigilyph/grasstype/SapSipper. Yeah, terrible decision to move it up, it's Leech Stall set that it gets from mommy get walled by the exact same things. The difference is that Whimsi gets the option of running Hurricane to ruin the grass types that wall it.

Fraxure is frail. Even with an Eviolite, it has to dip from its attack stat to keep it bulky (273 hp, 264 defense, 204 special defense otherwise) or it's speed stat which it needs to help keep it faster than anything that isn't scarved. It's decently powerful (base 117 attack), but it's slow and can't really take a hit otherwise, and it would be lucky as sin if if could set up two dragon dances without falling to Jynx, Porzgon-Z (Hell, even Porygon), and other common BoltBeamers.

Hippopotas has reliable recovery, but terrible type coverage in its attacks, making only for a semi-effective wall/ toxic-staller. It doesn't have Ice Fang like its dad does, so it has to stick with EQ, Slack Off, Stockpile/Curse, and Toxic to be of any real use.

Porygon-Z: BANITBANITBANITBANIT. Easily one of the best BoltBeamers out there, with Adaptability Nasty Plot Tri-Attack, or even Download Tri-Attack, Porygon Z is more suited for Borderline rather than NU.

Snover has a problem in NU. Fire and fighting types. While.... Slightly bulky, it's low health and subpar attacking stat (Even after a Swords Dance) means that Snover won't be sweeping anything unless it hits 4x Super-effectively, which means that Water Rock/ Grounds and Ground Flyings beware, for Snover might come and take you down. XD

Magneton, Rhydon, and Tangela are some of the best physical walls out there. And while both Magneton and Rhydon suffer somewhat crippling 4x weaknesses (Ground for Magneton, and Water and Grass for Rhydon), their defensive stats with the eviolite boost more than makes up for it, with Rhydon hitting 351/ 508/ 283 with maximum defense investment with an Adamant nature, and hitting 325 attack with said adamant nature (Without EVs). Magneton hits 241/ 433/ 358 with a Quiet nature with Analytic, allowing it to tank much and hurt hard. And Tangela is the most epic of the walls here. While it shares a weakness with Magneton (fire) and one with Rhydon (Ice), it's so immensely bulky and with Amnesia and Leech Seed to back it up, it laughs at opponents as it Giga Drains and Regenerates out, or Ancient Powers and gets full stat boosts. With 271/ 493 (From a grass tpye, yes, you read that right)/ 294 with a Calm nature, it doesn't need any kind of attacking style at all except for Giga Drain, to be honest. Each of these are just too much to take with thier bulk and offensive prowess.

Marowak is immensely strong and decently bulky with 262/ 568/ 256/ 122/ 259/ 126 for its stats. With Smack Down and EQ, it shows promise even in OU, raping Gengar and Skarmory (The former more often than not with Smack Down itself) and turning set ups into ruin. With access to Swords Dance as well, it hits an unprecedented 1,136 attack with STAB on a base 100 power attack and good enough bulk to let it survive the odd Ice Beam from nonstab walls. Marowak has just too much power to stay in NU.

[Amethyst]

The lower tiers is generally a lot of set up, and in that case more bulk might not be all too reliable on the unevolved weather setters; they can't set up much themselves last I checked, and an extra 1.5x in both defenses won't really save you from +2 or +3 attackers.

The rest of the team is a bigger threat, I think, so really it shouldn't matter where they themselves go.

And for the above reason, Ditto might actually be less effective in higher tiers, since just looking at my team alone (not OU in the least, mind) I have two scarves as it is. Ditto chances a speed tie, and potentially gets wrecked, whereas in lower tiers where everything has to set up to be much of a big threat, it just comes in like "sup, thanks for the boosts, I'm guaranteed to be faster than you, now die." This is furthered by the fact that generally, short of maybe Curse or Bulk Up, the set-uppers are still glass cannons that get destroyed by anything faster.

[Amethyst]

Kyurem base 130 special attack with a 180 power Blizzard with 100% accuracy thanks to Snover (Seriously, except for its movepool consisting of Dragon, Ice, and Fighting), this thing is a monster. It's base stats are insane, having one of the bulkiest defenses stats and some of the most terrifying offense stats out there, at 125/130/90/130/90/95. Running max defenses in the hail allow it to survive through hits that would normally ko other Ice and dragon types. Add on a Modest nature and Blizzard, Focus Blast, Dragon Pulse/ Draco Meteor, and Shadow Ball, or even Rest will allow it to absolutely destroy opposing teams. This thing has the stats of an OU Pokemon with a movepool with perfect coverage (Dragon Fighting AND Ice Fighting), if only a little inaccurate. And due to its bulk, it can take out many opposing Pokemon in the lower tiers.

Raikou is one of the best electric types out there. While many claim that it's bested by Jolteon, Jolteon is only faster, and nowhere near as bulky. Raikou is stronger, bulkier, and has access to Calm Mind, all of which Jolteon wishes it had. With access to Shadowball, Aura Sphere, Thunder, and and other moves, it is a better revengekiller against Rain teams while scarved. This thing can hold its own in OU as well as BL, UU, LU and NU (In fact, it almost completely rapes those last three tiers.) This thing demolishes NU, take it out.

(Sorry about the double post)

Lapras can be one of the bulkiest sweepers out there in UU. With Dragon Dance, immense special bulk and HP, it's like a slightly worse typed Jellicent that can deal monster damage. With great physical moves like Waterfall, Ice Shard, Body Slam, Bulldoze, Headbutt, Outrage, and Zen Headbutt, it can easily provide for a great bulky sweeper in UU. With 240 speed, it might start out slow, but after a single Dance, it hits 360, allowing for outspeeding of many other UU Pokemon, and with 403 attack, it can hit hard as well. With Water Absorb, it can come in on a water attack and heal up any damage lost by Stealth Rocks and even Dragon Dance up for a sweep. Not to be underestimated, this one is. Translation? Keep it in UU.

Ninjask appears in both the BL and UU tiers, and due to its stats, ability, and movepool, I suggest placement in the BL tier. Yes it suffers a massive 4x weakness to SR but Ninjask should always be run as a lead. Thanks to Roar, Whirlwind, and Dtail having such high prominence in the metagames, for whatever odd reason, it can lead to a loss of boosts, however, if a Pass or even attack boosts is reached, it prove to be not only a deadly sweeper, but also a terrifying Passer. Put it in BL.

Basculin is a powerful water type, due to its access to Adaptability and moves like Waterfall and Aqua Tail. To make a sample set for it, Aqua Jet, Crunch, Scald/ Toxic (Its base 80 special attack isn't to be trifled with either) and Waterfall allow it to hit a lot of things neutrally, especially in the lower tiers. An Electrode rain dancer can assist Basculin even further by adding an additional 1.5 damage boost to its 2x damage dealing water attacks. It shouldn't be messed with in NU, and can assist with some serious offensive momentum in the lower tiers. Move it to LU.

Electrode is holy living crap kinds of fast (Base 140, fastest until Ninjask and Deoxys showed up in Gen 3). You can slap a Scarf on it so that Electro Ball can deal massive damage, or a Specs on it so that it can still do massive damage. Add on Afermath and any Pokemon surviving due to Sash gets removed anyway. While base 80 special attack is respectable without Adaptability, it works wonders with the right moves, item ad EVs, as Electrode can quite easily do. Too much of a threat in NU, it needs removal to LU.

Scyther is bulky (70/80/80 with an Eviolite to boost it), fast (base 105 allows it to outspeed even Garchomp), and strong (base 110 with Technician), and with these, it can cause some serious hurt. Wing Attack now has 135 power, and so does Bug Bite (60+Tech+STAB (60+30=90+45=135), and with Swords Dance, it can cause even more hurt. Add on Brick Break fr maximum coverage, and even Pokemon in UU and BL fear it. It's oonly flaw is the crippling 4x weakness to Stealth Rocks damage, but that hasn't stopped anything before, has it? (Ho-Oh is Ubers, and Volcarona is OU) And even though it its usage stats aren't that great, it has the power, speed, and bulk that many sweepers in the higher tiers wish they had. Move it to LU. (Defense stats after Eviolite running max attack and speed with Jolly nature (252 attack, 4 special defense, 252 speed): 281/294/295 with 319 attack and 339 speed)

Gurdurr is the best fighting tank that I've ever seen. With Iron Fist and Drain Punch, it hits much harder than its base 105 attack would normally allow it, and Mach Punch gets the same boost in power. With Payback and Bulk Up, it's coverage is perfect and its defenses even higher (85/85/50 puts it even higher physical defense-wise than Scyther.) It's power and defenses are insane and it should be moved up to at least LU as well. (Defenses stats with max attack adamant with Eviolite (4 HP, 252 attack, 252 special defense): 312/309/298.5 with 339 attack)

Huntail is essentially a stronger Gorebyss that focuses primarily on physical moves. With Waterfall, Crunch, and Ice Fang, along with Shell Smash, this thing rapes in LU. With 446 speed and 614 attack, this thing will tear through most other Pokemon in LU. Even things like Aggron and Rhyperior fall to its power. Eelektross suffers massively from a +2 Waterfall, and can't do much in return. With its power andSTAB moves along with Shell Smash, I'm surprised that Huntail isn't with Gorebyss up in UU.

[Amethyst]

Proposing an amendment to the original voting plan:

On Monday, voting opens for some of the less-disputable Pokemon. I'll make a list of those below shortly. Just the ones that are kinda like, duh. Then have the full voting next week. Fair?

OverUsed (Pokemon banned from the Borderline tier)*:

Dusknoir, Zoroark

Borderline (Pokemon banned from the UnderUsed tier):

] [/color]Jellicent, Rotom-W

UnderUsed (Pokemon banned from the LittleUsed tier):

Accelgor, Carracosta, Feraligatr, Magnezone

LittleUsed (Pokemon banned from NeverUsed tier):

Ambipom, Ampharos, Armaldo, Beartic, Camerupt, Cradily, Slaking, Toxicroak

NeverUsed (Pokemon not banned from any tier):

Amoongus, Ferroseed, Gligar, Kyurem, PorygonZ, Raikou, Thundurus, Xatu

These are just things that I get a sense there isn't going to be much if any debate over. If anyone has issue with these things, post a defense within the next couple days and we'll move it to the next vote.

[A Pink Cheetah]

Not to mention Priority Nasty Plot and Thunder Wave and a 180 power +2 special attack Thunder. Thundurus is devastating.

Zoroark has base 105 speed, 120 special attack, and 105 attack, meaning that it's fast, and very powerful. It gets Sucker Punch, Night Daze, Dark Pulse, Foul Play, etc for excellent STAB moves. And with access to both Swords Dance and Nasty Plot, along with great coverage moves such as Flamethrower, U-Turn, Shadow Ball, Punishment being great against those who set up, Low Sweep, and even Focus Blast, allowing for perfect type coverage with its Dark STABs and Shadow Ball. Specs it with a timid nature, and it begins an all out powerhouse special death sweep. Expert Belt works just as well, and so does Wise Glasses. Add on a Nasty Plot boost to the Expert Belt or Wise Glasses, and it becomes a monster, sweeping through everything that it hits.

[Amethyst]

Changes applied:

Currently in OU:

Dusknoir: BL

Zoroark: BL

Currently in BL:

Jellicent: OU

Rotom-W: OU

Currently in UU:

Accelgor: UU

Carracosta: UU

Feraligatr: BL

Magnezone: UU

Currently in LU:

Ambipom: BL

Ampharos: NU

Armaldo: LU

Beartic: NU

Camerupt: NU

Cradily: UU

Slaking: LU

Toxicroak: BL

Currently in NU:

Amoongus: UU

Ferroseed: LU

Gligar: LU

Kyurem: BL

PorygonZ: BL

Raikou: UU

Thundurus: OU

Xatu: UU

This topic has been updated accordingly. I'm looking to open voting for EVERYTHING ELSE, 1/29. Any objections or other nominations should be stated ASAP.