Tomas Elliot presents: a theory on today's OU meta, with RMT

[Tomas Elliot]

INTRODUCTION

It's been a while since I last made a RMT, hasn't it? Well, today I am feeling motivated to finally get over my crippling laziness and use some of my (scarce) free time to make one. The reason being, lately I have been pondering over a theory concerning the state of OU's meta, and I have created a team specifically to test this theory of mine. And well, considering that I am currently in the 1500 range (and keep in mind that I started these tests after the latest ladder reset), it would seem that the facts are proving me right.

So, what is my theory about? It is very simple: my theory is that people have given up on attempting to address all possible threats from a defensive standpoint. There are so many offensive threats in OU, that the age of defensive cores created specifically to stop the most common sweepers in their tracks (remember Skarm-Bliss in Gen 4?) has ended. Nowadays, people prefer to build teams that can provide versatility, teams that can be effective against the wider possible range of threats, both from an offensive and a defensive standpoint. In other words, people try to check as many things as possible, rather than counter specific threats.
But when it comes to switching into a threat, a dedicated counter is always better than a genericly bulky check, as the latter is worn out much faster. But since genericly bulky checks are what most people will be using nowadays, it follows logically that teams are easier to bust open with a wallbreaker nowadays, than they were in Gen 4. On the other hand, setting up is harder now than it was back then, because there are so many offensive threats around, that chances are the opponent will have out something capable of killing your setup sweeper before it can get a chance to start boosting. By the time you have removed entry hazards, all the defensive threats that could stand in the way of your setup sweeper and all the offensive threats that could kill it before it does its job, you will have more or less won the match, making the setup sweeper itself redundant.

Allow me to clarify this point with an example: Dragonite requires you to get rid of Sandstorm, Stealth Rock, any Fairy-type Pokemon, and most Steel-type Pokemon (Megagross outspeeds and kills, Mega Scizor does not fear EQ, Balloon Heatran trolls the guy) before it can even THINK about attempting to set up, and faster dragons that could OHKO it with Outrage or Draco Meteor need to be gone, as well. This means, you need to remove 3, sometimes even 4 Pokemon per match, before Dragonite can come in and sweep. Which means, you are going through the trouble of setting up the guy, only for it to kill less than half of the foe's team, something its companion could probably have accomplished anyway, considering that they have already killed the other half beforehand. The question is: did you really NEED Dragonite to accomplish that?

All this leads me to my theory: nowaydays, the most effective offensive strategy is the one I call "double wallbreaker". Basically, you grab two Pokemon with immense firepower, build a team capable of keeping momentum around them, and aim to provide them with free switches and fire off brutally powerful moves. No turns wasted for setting up, no strategy, no prediction: just hit hard. Eventually, the genericly bulky checks your opponent keeps switching into one of your wallbreaker will be worn out, meaning that the other one will then be guaranteed to kill something every time it comes in. Once upon a time, we used wallbreakers to try and bust the opponent's defensive core, but since nowadays people rely more and more on generic bulk and less and less on full-fledged cores, a wallbreaker can potentially kill 2 or 3 Pokemon per match, if managed correctly. Which means, TWO wallbreakers can potentially win a match, specially if they have good synergy and can wear down each other's checks.

Long story short: nowadays finding a way to give a wallbreaker a free switch in, and then firing off a brutally powerful move, pays off MUCH more than attempting to set up. And now for the team with which I hope to prove just that.

AT A GLANCE

There. You have two Pokemon that provide momentum and hazard control, two Pokemon that provide bulk and utility, and two wallbreakers. At least on paper, there is no Pokemon in existance that can keep on switching into BOTH Charizard AND Keldeo, so the idea is to keep turning and switching untill you can give either a free tag, and then you start firing off brutally powerful moves. Early on this makes for a very tactical, defensive mindset, where you try to manage your resources and you switch a lot more than you attack. But the moment the opponent's bulkiest Pokemon goes down, the rest of the match essentially becomes a game of Whack-A-Mole, with your opponent's Pokemon as the moles and Keldeo/Charizard (whichever is still alive by then) as the hammer. Speed control is not needed (although Thunder Wave support is included) because this team aims to win by forcing switches and then hitting hard on the switch, you hardly ever attempt a revenge kill.

IN-DEPTH ANALYSIS

@ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- U-turn

Lando-T is the single most used Pokemon in OU, and for a damn good reason. Good Bulk, Intimidate, key resistances and immunities, hazard control, item removal, momentum and decent offensive STAB, all in one Pokemon. There is only one Pokemon as versatile as this one...

@ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Roost
- Volt Switch

- Psychic

... Namely, Mew. I am honestly surprised to see that Smogon's recommended set includes U-Turn and Knock Off, Volt Switch is just as good for momentum and a STAB move is always good to have. You'd be surprised to see how many hits the little fella can take, and between recovery and momentum, keeping those nasty hazards away is rather easy. Which is important for a team that uses Charizard. And Psychic actually hits decently hard, making it possible for Mew to take on Fighting-type threats that carry Ice Punch for coverage, thus relieving some pressure from Landorus.

@ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Soft-Boiled

- Moonblast
- Healing Wish

This is a Pokemon that plays with 3 moves for most of the match. Thunder Wave cripples Megagross and Heatran as they switch in, and can also be used to slow down the likes of Megazam, that re too frail to take a hit from our wallbreakers but can outspeed them. Soft-Boiled is for recovery and Moonblast is the STAB attack that hits for decent damage. In the fourth slot, Healing Wish is effectively a single use Full Restore, which sometimes can make the difference between a win and a loss, as it allows you to make up for your mistake if you are too reckless in managing Charizard/Keldeo early on. It also acts as an emergency momentum tool, to give one of your wallbreakers a free switch in.

@ Assault Vest
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Crunch
- Pursuit
- Stone Edge

- Earthquake

Of course, since this team relies on special attackers, I needed a physical attacker to round out my offensive presence. And I also needed an out to the likes of Talonflame, the Lati twins, and Kyu-B. Enter AV Ttar: between AV and the Sandstorm boost, this guy is ridiculously bulky (Kyu-B's Earth Power isn't even a guaranteed 3HKO), and with full Atk investiments, it is guaranteed to hit hard. Its main use is to Pursuit to death Pokemon that are repeatedly switched into my wallbreakers: Heatran can easily be worn out this way, Starmie can be OHKOed (Scald burn nonwithstanding), and the Lati twins won't last long either. Tyranitar has always been a mainstay of my personal top 5 as far as fav Pokemon go, so I am glad I get to use it. Heck, Sand Stream is even useful to reset the weather, so I don't accidentally send Keldeo out into the sun...

@ Choice Specs
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Scald
- Secret Sword

- Icy Wind

Wallbreaker #1. Keldeo is a special attacker that can kill Chansey, and that alone would grant it a spot in a team like this. It also has good typing that lets it switch into things that try to take the other wallbreaker on, as well as a powerful Scald that is extremely spammable, courtesy of the burn chance that makes it really easy to wear down any wall not named Clefable. Hydro Pump is for those occasions when you need power over burn chance (like against the mentioned Clefable), and Icy Wind is to nail Grass- and Dragon-type Pokemon on the switch, as the Spe drop makes it easier to 2HKO them.

@ Make a wild guess
Ability: Drought
EVs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Modest Nature
- Flamethrower
- Solar Beam
- Dragon Pulse
- Roost

Wallbreaker #2. Megazard Y represents everything I like about the concept of mega evolution, specially when compared to its X counterpart (which represents everything I dislike about it). It does exactly what mega evolution should do: it makes a Pokemon better at what it already does. Charizard is a special sweeper that likes to take advantage from sunny weather. Megazard Y has ridiculously high SpAtk and Drought to guarantee to always be in sunny weather. It doesn't turn the base Pokemon into something entirely different (like, say, Megazard X), and it doesn't give it a sudden surge in power with a damage-increasing ability that makes little to no sense on it (like, say, Megadrill). It simply takes a Pokemon, and makes it better at what it already does. I wish all mega evolutions worked this way.

Rant aside, here we have an EV spread that focuses on giving the big guy just enough bulk to roost in the face of resisted attacks (and even some neutral ones), just enough speed to outrun neutral-natured Kyu-B (as well as things like Breloom), and maximum SpAtk. Between the ridiculous SpAtk stat and the boost from sun, Flamethrower is enough to dent/kill anything foolish enough to switch into it: Fire Blast doesn't really turn any relevant 2HKOs into OHKOs, so we can afford choosing reliability over power (which is certainly good news, I was so tired of Fire Blast missing in crucial moments). Solar Beam kills most things that resist Flamethrower, and Dragon Pulse catches Latias on the switch (Smogon recommends Focus Blast to hit Ttar and Heatran, but I dislike how unreliable that moves is AND I have multiple outs for those Pokemon anyway, so I prefer Dragon Pulse). Roost is used to heal off any damage Charizard might have taken upon switching in, and well, the big guy forces so many switches you WILL have chances to use it. Although, the whole point of this team is to win by hitting opponents hard on the switch, so when you force a switch, you more often than not want to attack... But hey, merely knowing that recovery is an option can make a big difference sometimes, for example against Bisharp and its Sucker Punch.

CONCLUSIONS

Well here is the team. Feel free to share your opinions not just on it, but on the theory behind it. It took a while to achieve this kind of balance, so if you suggest a change, make sure to also suggest changes to the rest of the team in order to compensate and preserve the balance. Importable in the spoiler.

Landorus-Therian @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- U-turn

Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Roost
- Volt Switch
- Psychic

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Soft-Boiled
- Healing Wish
- Moonblast

Tyranitar @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Crunch
- Pursuit
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake

Keldeo-Resolute @ Choice Specs
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Scald
- Secret Sword
- Icy Wind

Charizard-Mega-Y @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Drought
EVs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Modest Nature
- Flamethrower
- Solar Beam
- Dragon Pulse
- Roost

[Exalted]

now this is a very great team build up each pokemon supports each other and so on but just a small feature swap mega charizard y for x as its typing is much better cause drought does not support anything in this team except charizard itself and hinders keldeos water stab if forced to switch and m charizards dragon fire stab is near perfect with the exception of a few existing pokemon but earthquake usually covers them also clafable is something im biased about as alot of ou pokemon usually carry counters for fairies these days(or is it just me) clafable is great overall but without life orb dose not have that offensive edge it usually needs chansey can do this job much better with eviolite and switch in landorus if you feel a very dangerous physical move itll soften it with intimidate and go wells with the fact that mew is build like a physical wall here also carrying aroma therapy or heal bell can do miracles at times i feel tyranitar can be changed but something i dont mind much here but i feel it as a more independent pokemon more than anything anyhow without the changes still a pretty good team

[Tomas Elliot]

Sorry to sound a bit dickish but... I think you are not getting the point of this team.

The point of this team is to use a pair of wallbreakers to fire off brutally powerful moves, in order to pressure the opponent as they attempt to find the right switch. Megazard X, which you suggest using over Megazard Y, is not a wallbreaker by any stretch of imagination, as it needs to set up in order to pull off sweeps, and I clearly stated in the OP that I do not believe setting up is as rewarding in the current meta. So yeah, if you think Megazard Y is not the best wallbreaker for this team feel free to suggest another one, but it has to be a WALLBREAKER, not a set up sweeper.

Clefable can switch with impunity into Rotom-W and Keldeo, which is more than I can say about Chansey. Considering that those two Water-type threats are very problematic for the rest of my team, I would never consider replacing Clefable with Chansey. And wish passing and aromatherapy are things a cleric does, but there is a problem: to run a dedicated cleric, you need to expect the recipients of your wishes to be able to tank some hits. And frankly, I really don't believe Keldeo or Charizard can take any hits, therefore Healing WIsh is the superior option for emergency healing, as it grants them a free switch in which, as I explained with LOTS of details in the OP, is crucial for the playstyle of this team.

And Tyranitar does 3 important things for the team: switches into the Latis and Kyu-B, traps worn out walls with Pursuit, and resets the weather, to prevent Keldeo from finding itself in the sun. It's hardly a "more independent Pokemon".

On a more serious note, a change I am considering is LO over Specs on Keldeo. I have found myself facing situations in which the ability of changing moves would have been important, but I would need some feedback as to how relevant the loss in firepower is.

[Tomas Elliot]

The loss in firepower will definitely be seen. But it's still powerful enough. There is Expert Belt though. @@

Also, LO recoil tends to be sub-optimal, so yep. DON'T count on me though, since I'm trash at competitive. ;;

On a sidenote, I really like how the team is!

I wonder if you can use Hoopa-U since it's a very formidable wallbreaker. @@

Hoopa IS a Pokemon I failed to consider. To work it in however, I would need to make some major modifications: it would replace Keldeo, but then I would have two dark-type mons, so I would need to remove Ttar... Which would force me to run physically defensive Rotom-W, as otherwise I'd be weak to Talonflame. In turn, this would cause me to change Mew to specially defensive, thus settling with a lineup of Lando-T, Rotom-W, Mew, Clefable, Hoopa and Charizard. This would cause me to lose my reliable ways of handling Heatran, thus forcing me to run stuff like Drain Punch on Hoopa and Focus Blast on Charizard... Although Rotom's presence would mitigate the need for a volt switching defogger, meaning that I could run something else as a defogger, something capable of dealing with Heatran. Latias comes to mind, and she has Healing Wish and can also handle Keldeo, so if she replaces Mew then I don't need Clefable anymore, which leaves me essentially free to run whatever the hell I want in the spot...

Lol 4/6 of the team changed by a single suggestion. That's good too, it's what synergy and balance are all about

[Exalted]

well i take your point of view i forgot to consider the fact that you wanted alll out and no setup my apologies well seeing that im more of setup battler my first instinct and all so mind me and seeing that youre now gonna run hoopa unbound if i may i recommend running a haze or clear smog user with decent enough speed as this can just disturb a ongoing setup as it is but i have these 2 pokemon on a different note then the previous as a recommendation as i found these 2 guys handy of some of my personal teams choice scarf staraptor it can do higher damage then talonflame banded if reckless is used with max attack also gaining close combat for some nifty steel removal also with scarf its fairly fast and will catch much by surprise or try running a guts conkeldurr(i know iron fist is there) as wil o wisp is a popular and most pokemon wont survive mach punch afterwards for any ghost switch ins knock off and assault vest will give it fairly good good defences as well

yeah and the reason i actully dont like using charizard y so much is cause of stealth rock and i personally prefer x cause it can act as a fairly tough walll with the right investments but to each his own perfrence

Edited January 7, 2016 by NovaKnight

[Red_Chaos]

what if clefable gave you nightmares and you refused to use it?

[NickCrash]

If you no longer believe set-up is the way to go, then why is one of your more successful teams built around a SD Gliscor? Regarding this theory, it can work the same way that semi-stall does. The recipe is not new. You weaken the most prominent threats with hazards, cripple them with burn/paralysis, force them to switch around with your bulk, since they cannot touch it, and while they do, you make sure to attack to weaken whatever comes inside. In your case, it is not dedicated stall, which means that offensive power is what forces the switches, because the opponent still plays with a win condition they do not want to lose. Following the same train of thought, the mindset is not to bring any obstacle down with brute force, but to focus on how you can make your win cons appear with as little damage as possible. Sometimes people focus too much on those, creating a team with only 1 win con (like D-nite proposed above) or no dedicated sweepers/wallbreakers which creates holes in the team that cannot be rendered with a simple switch in moveset, EV spread or item held.

Here it happens that your team works, without using the most optimal sets for any situation. Mind you, smogon shows the most common sets for certain pokemon, so as the "copy-paste" will be the best answer to the widest array of teams ie the usual set for Mew includes WoW to deal with physical threats too, and honestly, if you decide to make the changes and have no need for a volt-switch physically defensive pokemon (which means ground types won't appear to tackle you), you can always make small changes to the moveset and keep the pokemon.

I too begin from a single pokemon change and end up with a completely different team when I build, simply because some roles are lost and they might be crucial for the purpose of the team. Here, you do not need to change many things. In my opinion, keep Clefable as it is, because the Magic Guard also assists in weather, whereas residual damage in other walls like Latias do not enjoy this, especially since most Latias nowadays hardly keep Roost for themselves, meaning your bulky wall (since you as well use generically bulky mons) will not live long enough to bring a teammate to life. I have built a similar team with ZardY, T-Tar, Latias, Excadrill, Ferro and Keldeo, meaning half the team has the same members, albeit with somewhat different roles (since my team focuses on tanking hits and responding with speed), but yours is not far from mine in terms of what the different members to, perhaps yours focuses more on pivoting around. The point of this mention is that you may find suitable members to take certain spots, so building around won't be difficult, especially with all those bulky mons that can take several spots.

My only worry is on move-lock, because you have neither priority nor scarfers to deal with a pokemon that will gain the luxury of setting up on Keldeo's face. In this way your team lacks in versatility, only because you can't expect to always make perfect plays. While Specs nets you enough KO's you need to make the win easier, a team that's more defensively orientated will be able to pivot around Keldeo, or even bring a setup sweeper forcing you to lose a couple of members to deal with it. For example, a weakened Lando-T (I think <70%HP) can be OHKOed by ZardX at 0 boosts (DD & intimidate after) which proves problematic for the other members as well. It basically destroys your Clef, which will need to come in and T-wave it, for you to bring it down easier (since some variants cover EQ>Roost to deal with T-Tar easier). Said variants make use of clerics to stay alive, and have enough bulk to do so. Scald won't do enough to harm it, and if you insist, you might lose your Keldeo for nothing. Other examples include M-Pinsir, M-Altaria (both physical and special), Azumarill and even Serperior (the sub variant cannot be dealt with Clefable - not really a setup sweeper but you get the idea). In my opinion, this change is most optimal. Even if it's harder to play with setup, it's more common than multiple wallbreaking, and if you let your opponent set-up once, you might lose more than you gain with sheer firepower.

[Cobalt996]

My only worry is on move-lock, because you have neither priority nor scarfers to deal with a pokemon that will gain the luxury of setting up on Keldeo's face. In this way your team lacks in versatility, only because you can't expect to always make perfect plays. While Specs nets you enough KO's you need to make the win easier, a team that's more defensively orientated will be able to pivot around Keldeo, or even bring a setup sweeper forcing you to lose a couple of members to deal with it. For example, a weakened Lando-T (I think <70%HP) can be OHKOed by ZardX at 0 boosts (DD & intimidate after) which proves problematic for the other members as well. It basically destroys your Clef, which will need to come in and T-wave it, for you to bring it down easier (since some variants cover EQ>Roost to deal with T-Tar easier). Said variants make use of clerics to stay alive, and have enough bulk to do so. Scald won't do enough to harm it, and if you insist, you might lose your Keldeo for nothing. Other examples include M-Pinsir, M-Altaria (both physical and special), Azumarill and even Serperior (the sub variant cannot be dealt with Clefable - not really a setup sweeper but you get the idea). In my opinion, this change is most optimal. Even if it's harder to play with setup, it's more common than multiple wallbreaking, and if you let your opponent set-up once, you might lose more than you gain with sheer firepower.

Mew handles the two bolded threats quite handily (assuming Azumarill does not have Knock Off, or ZardX Crunch). Only glaring issue is that Mew will probably fall on the slower side with ZardX. By the time Mew falls, the threat is weak enough to be dealt with by another source.

[Tomas Elliot]

Mew handles the two bolded threats quite handily (assuming Azumarill does not have Knock Off, or ZardX Crunch). Only glaring issue is that Mew will probably fall on the slower side with ZardX. By the time Mew falls, the threat is weak enough to be dealt with by another source.

Yeah pretty much. "Weaken the foe's top threats as much as possible before finishing them off with something else" is pretty much the bread and butter of the team. Although, priority control and/or a scarfer could help with that, but I don't know how to include either without major changes ;-;

[Odybld]

I started writing this hours ago but didn't manage to finish it then... Anyway

The short answer for Hoopa: nah. The long answer for Hoopa: nah, you will lose both speed and sheer damage output because of mixed offenses, unless you scarf it, which means even lesser damage and the unfortunate moments of the opponent bringing a check or counter you can't immediately break with the move you're scarfed in, so you give them a free turn of something.

I don't think it is a problem on the battlefield, but I find it very funny on a concept level, that your team may be having some problems with the same strategy on higher speed: the base 110 max 350 speed tier is an important milestone in OU now, with the Latii, Gengar, Mega Meta (allthough the fashion's long gone), Mega Diancie, Mega Gal- oh shit, Sableye is still here, nevermind.

Anyway, the problem that I see is that lacking a revengekiller, the opponents might try to play the same whackamole game with faster hit and run things. Latios is not an issue since Tyranitar, Metagross is annoying because none of your members love switching into the right one out of its stabs except Lando, but be wary of Ice Punch. Diancie can also spam attacks against you, if Ttar gets worn down it slowly becomes a problem, it screws your sweepers in one hit and it can't get T-Waved either. Maybe run Wish instead of Healing Wish if you see that the opponents whackamole you like that, to keep Lando and Ttar healthier. Other, faster things: offensive Starmie can fire a boosted and an unboosted Hydro Pump on Ttar and do some damage, allthough odds are against it hitting both, Weavile is annoying but handleable, careful of Poison Jab and/or Low Kick on it, since if it runs that your defensive backbone has an issue with it, Keldeo handles it well but it loses its Specs and some health in the process.. Your sweepers HATE Raikou and Manectric's quick escapades and Lando hates HP Ice, make sure to Pursuit-trap them well too... I really am afraid of Ttar's health, it's the backbone of the team! Mega Alakazam is also annoying... Scarf wallbreakers are also a thing, Scarf physical Kyu-B and scarf Hoopaa, but these are not used that often... I mean, they just try to whackamole you the same way as you try to do with the opponent. Gengar can hit a Focus Blast on the switch on Ttar or hit a WoW or sub and it becomes annoying as hell... I hope that Ttar can stay healthy and that between rocks, sand and Pursuit the opponent loses whatever outspeeds and pressures you.

In general, I think that this team is far more representative of your defensive focus as a builder, rather than a new-found offensive philosophy

About handling set-uppers: You can run Life Orb Keldeo with Taunt, which is great for the sub-110 speedsters that try to exploit their resistance to Keldeo's movepool. You lose damage output though, which is sad, and you get recoil damage together with the sand damage. You can also run more status (WoW on Mew? TW on Mew and WoW on Zard?) or Unaware Clefable and solve the problems like that.

I know it's not the best thing in Singles at all, but I also wonder if a Tailwind on Zard over Dragon Pulse would help you both against setup AND faster threats. Too weird an idea though.

PS I love this song, and that's propably because I love the character on the video that the song is used. I need your expert opinion on this one though

[Odybld]

I started writing this hours ago but didn't manage to finish it then... Anyway

The short answer for Hoopa: nah. The long answer for Hoopa: nah, you will lose both speed and sheer damage output because of mixed offenses, unless you scarf it, which means even lesser damage and the unfortunate moments of the opponent bringing a check or counter you can't immediately break with the move you're scarfed in, so you give them a free turn of something.

I don't think it is a problem on the battlefield, but I find it very funny on a concept level, that your team may be having some problems with the same strategy on higher speed: the base 110 max 350 speed tier is an important milestone in OU now, with the Latii, Gengar, Mega Meta (allthough the fashion's long gone), Mega Diancie, Mega Gal- oh shit, Sableye is still here, nevermind.

Anyway, the problem that I see is that lacking a revengekiller, the opponents might try to play the same whackamole game with faster hit and run things. Latios is not an issue since Tyranitar, Metagross is annoying because none of your members love switching into the right one out of its stabs except Lando, but be wary of Ice Punch. Diancie can also spam attacks against you, if Ttar gets worn down it slowly becomes a problem, it screws your sweepers in one hit and it can't get T-Waved either. Maybe run Wish instead of Healing Wish if you see that the opponents whackamole you like that, to keep Lando and Ttar healthier. Other, faster things: offensive Starmie can fire a boosted and an unboosted Hydro Pump on Ttar and do some damage, allthough odds are against it hitting both, Weavile is annoying but handleable, careful of Poison Jab and/or Low Kick on it, since if it runs that your defensive backbone has an issue with it, Keldeo handles it well but it loses its Specs and some health in the process.. Your sweepers HATE Raikou and Manectric's quick escapades and Lando hates HP Ice, make sure to Pursuit-trap them well too... I really am afraid of Ttar's health, it's the backbone of the team! Mega Alakazam is also annoying... Scarf wallbreakers are also a thing, Scarf physical Kyu-B and scarf Hoopaa, but these are not used that often... I mean, they just try to whackamole you the same way as you try to do with the opponent. Gengar can hit a Focus Blast on the switch on Ttar or hit a WoW or sub and it becomes annoying as hell... I hope that Ttar can stay healthy and that between rocks, sand and Pursuit the opponent loses whatever outspeeds and pressures you.

In general, I think that this team is far more representative of your defensive focus as a builder, rather than a new-found offensive philosophy

About set-uppers: You can run Life Orb Keldeo with Taunt, which is great for the sub-110 speedsters that try to exploit their resistance to Keldeo's movepool. You lose damage output though, which is sad, and you get recoil damage together with the sand damage. You%

[Deleted User]

Look out for

Kyurem-B

Scarf Lando-T

Gengar

Keldeo

[Tomas Elliot]

Well yes. All the Pokemon you guys (Ody and Jericho) mentioned have given me trouble at some point or another, and... Yeah, solving the issue without major changes is kinda hard. AV Tornadus-T could replace Lando as the team's U-turner, thus helping check many of the mons in the speed tier you mentioned, most notably Gengar and the Latis. This in theory would allow me to replace Ttar with a physical wall that can take care of Talonflame and the various Fighting-type threats, but there is a problem: by adopting this strategy I sacrifice my main Manectric/Raikou check AND I increase the number of Electric weaknesses, so yeah, that doesn't really seem a good idea.

Latias has Defog and Healing Wish, so she could replace Clefable and act as my emergency Full Heal, my Keldeo check AND my Defogger all in one, which in turn would leave Mew free to carry Thunder Wave. But well, I am essentially swapping moves around while adding a second Dark weakness, so this doesn't seem smart either.

AV Raikou is also an option to act as my Volt-Switch user, providing decent sponging abilities on the special side, and checking many of the threats you mentioned. Fitting it in the team while preserving the overall balance would most likely be VERY complicated, but on paper it looks like the best option. Like, let's assume we make a Volt-Turn core with my current Lando and AV Raikou, and we keep my current wallbreaking duo of Keldeo and Charizard. Now we need to fill the last two spots with general bulk, Defog, and possibly Healing Wish. What are the possible options to achieve this? Maybe a surprise UU core of Cresselia (insane bulk on both sides, Thunder Wave and Lunar Dance) and Mandibuzz (Defog, Roost, Foul Play to punish set-up sweepers)? What would such a team miss out on, compared to my current line-up? The most blatant answer is: Pursuit. Losing Pursuit is not ideal. But what other options are there? Am I failing to see something obvious?

[Odybld]

I think you can easily afford the loss of Psychic on Mew for the sake of one more status move, and also I'd say you can afford Will-o-wisp on Char over Dragon Pulse. Again, as long as Tyranitar can stay healthy (BIG question here, does it stay healthy enough without Wishes passed? does it need the Get-out-of-jail-free card often?) to repeatedly switch into threats and wear them out with one sand turn and a Pursuit, your outlook is ok. If you add the extra TW on Mew and a Wow on Char (or only WoW on Mew), I really think that the life of your opponents will soon become much more miserable. Also a burn or two help wear stuff down even more.

[Chase]

I'm gonna have to firstly say this - I LOVE Y over X too - Simply because Yzard represents the sheer power a Mega Evolution would ideally have in my opinion. I don't think you -should- have to set something that mega evolves up if it's an offensive threat in most cases, and Yzard is the best representative of that.

The biggest glaring weakness for this team is going to be priority. Your wallbreakers are fast, but that doesn't mean priority isn't going to cripple the concept of the team for you. I also think T-tar may be hyper-extended regarding previously mentioned Pokemon such as MegaGross, who not only can Hammer Arm a weakened Ttar into oblivion, but threatens Clefable and perhaps most importantly, Keldeo.

Ttar + one of your two wallbreakers out early could spell trouble for the other if your opponent picks their poison with enough haste.

[Tomas Elliot]

So, first of all I would like to thank you guys for your feedback. I am glad to see so many people bought into my theory and are willing to improve and refine it.

Let's get to the important stuff: after realizing that, on paper, Raikou could solve many of my problems, I gave it a try... And what do I know, it does solve many of my problems. This lead me to creating these possible line-ups that can make use of the tiger:

1) Lando - Raikou - Clefable - Mandibuzz - Keldeo - Charizard (see it in action here). Raikou and Lando are the Volt-Turn core, while Mandibuzz takes over the Defog duties and checks physical set up sweepers courtesy of Foul Play.

Pros:

- Very balanced in terms of physical and special bulk

- I have a direct out to physical set up sweepers

Cons:

- Lack of Pursuit

- The defogger is itself weak to SR which, when you factor in the amount of threats it has to switch in, reduces its survivability and makes its job harder

2) Lando - Raikou - Mew - Tyranitar - Keldeo - Charizard. Mew is on Defog duties and, since I already have a Volt-Turn core, it now carries Thunder Wave over Volt Switch.

Pros:

- Less overall weakness to rocks makes it easier to hazard control

- Tyranitar's presence, paired with Raikou, allows me to address what is probably the widest range of threats

Cons:

- Loss of Healing Wish, which is a very important move for a team like this

- Two Assault Vest users with no cleric whatsoever makes the overall efficiency worse

3) Lando - Mew - Clefable - Tyranitar - Keldeo - Mega Manectric. It is essentially the team in the OP with Charizard replaced by Manectric, which basically combines into itself the roles Raikou and Charizard play in the other possible line-ups (it has the stats and coverageto do it).

Pros:

- Significantly less weak to hazards

- Better offensive coverage, momentum on one of my wallbreakers, and improved speed make it even harder for opponents to switch in

Cons:

- Loss of sun makes it difficult to reset Ttar's sandstorm and to check enemy Water-type threats

- I lose Charizard, which was the main focus of this project

What are your thoughts people? Which of these solutions sounds the best?

[Cobalt996]

Leaning toward the third due to Defiant Milotic. One good swap prediction (to Lando-T, or if you lead with it) on their part, and... well, Clefable can withstand it (which is more than I can say for everything else), but it can't defeat it. Keldeo + parahax is the only consistent way of taking it out, should it get a defiant boost out. Aside from that, removing some weakness to Water-Types (33% from 50%) helps in the long run, since Clefable already has to deal with a majority of special sweepers as-is. ZardY does weaken opposing Water-Types, but the main Pokemon to want that weakening either will be in the field longer than the sun (Clefable), have their attacks weakened (Keldeo), get hit with a coverage attack (rip Lando-T), or destroy it with their own weather ability (Granted, rock-type Sdef boost negates that issue).

The second team looks good as well, but, as you said, two AV users is... a bit inefficient. Some days it feels like Special is becoming a more common threat than Physical, though, so not terribly inefficient. If you want to take a risk with a Rash nature, Weather Ball on Raikou works as a nice coverage attack, what with sand and sun on the team.

[NickCrash]

It appears my previous wall of text has been ignored, yet any change made in the original team so far is inclined towards being even weaker to the already mentioned threats there. I wonder why.

Your first line-up may help deal with set up sweepers but Mandibuzz kills your momentum, and I thought you wanted to force switches, not be forced to switch around yourself. It may enter as it pleases and defog away the hazards but

i) it will receive a 25% damage from rocks, immune to others

ii) will possibly lose a turn by using either defog or roost, meaning you either let an opposing wallbreaker run wild, or you are forced to switch before defog

iii) losing pursuit means they can move freely, without thinking twice before entering a psychic type, or even a ghost type, since Gengar is a formidable foe for your whole team, since it outspeeds. It gets wrecked by Mandibuzz, but even the vulture cannot take too many Sludge Waves before going down. I've even seen it use Dazzling Gleam lately, so if you're weakened enough (by a ... let's say Raikou/M-Manectric + Gengar core) you are pretty much dead, since half the team is weak t electric, and Lando is done with HP-ice.

iv) By the looks of it, the following pokemon still give you trouble: Weavile, Conkeldurr, opposing Keldeo, sub/CM Raikou (beats magic guard Clef) etc

The second line-up seems nice enough, and the use of 2 AV users is not bad per se. The problem is that everything can and will be weakened after a while. This means that opposing stall will ruin your game early on, even if you make the smart predictions required to bring them to approximately the same level. Pivoting won't really help, because determined stall brings dedicated counters to the game. Apart from that, what I see is

i) Dark types do not have anything to stop them, and you will be forced to bring Keldeo in, which will sustain damage, either from attacks or hazards. If you decide to sacrifice a mon to bring Keldeo in safely, you always risk a game of whack-a-mole from the other side. Crap like Bisharp and Weavile will cause damage.

ii) Tyranitar here probably needs a choice scarf to be most effective, which in turn means that you'd have to take EVs from HP, making it less likely to survive. This in turn makes it vulverable to being steadily weakened and then dead, which will turn worrisome since it's your main check for multiple common threats.

Anyway, most common suggestions have already been proposed, so I'd like to present some uncommon alternatives.

1) Lefties Scizor (NOT AV) - this one provides you hazard control with defog, priority will bullet punch, and pivoting with u-turn when needed. Final move should be roost to keep your defogger healthy. Give it a specially defensive EV spread, and you have a long-lasting pokemon that fits many roles and is threatened only by fire. Alternatively you could try leftovers. I suppose this one lacks the offensive power a Raikou would have, but it has enough survivability to do it's role when need be. It will remove the hazards when you need to, and has nice synergy with your wallbreaker-combo.

2) Another pokemon that gains access to Healing Wish is Celebi. This little guy can have both physical and special bulk, tending to the team's needs in any way the builder sees fit, and forms a nice FGW core with your wallbreakers/sweepers. If you decide to combine it with the above mentioned Scizor (essentially taking Mew's and Raikou's place) you also have a check against electric types that threaten your main members, lure M-Manectric into the game for the other members to dispose of (other members being T-Tar) or even outstall Magnezone or even Slowbro with flamethrower/fire-blast. I have doubts on this option because it makes opposing Talonflame sweeps kinda easier and gets trapped by opposing T-Tar and Bisharp, but it does stop Keldeo, and scarfed Lando-T that has already made a move cannot touch it, so it can even baton pass a boost to T-Tar or Lando-T (if SD or agility). If you go for CM, it can boost Keldeo and ZardY and go for a sweet sweep.

The 3rd solution seems the better of the 3, even if Manectric can take less hits than Zard and you'll have problems with sand turns.

Here T-Tar does not need to invest too much in speed, but if you see that fast threats are not dealt with Manectric well enough, you can try to scarf it (it will outspeed base 115 threats with full speed investment) in order to punch holes in your opponent's team. Again, move-lock causes problems, but you have enough fast threats to deal with this. If you decide to use Scizor, this line-up is also suitable and can do the job just fine.

If you are content with those team-mates, you can always try using AV Bisharp. Will not live as long as T-Tar does, but this helps you keep Pursuit, while getting a reliable check for any fairy around (even Clef with flamethrower cannot kill you, Diancie can be dealt with the other pokemon since it has no recovery), and it's always nice to get a +2 from an opposing Defog, or a predicted intimidate switch.

This way, you can still have Stone Edge on Lando-T, and give it EQ, Rocks and U-turn to also have momentum.

I still suggest you give Mew WoW if you decide to keep it.

So, final line-up suggested:

Lando - Mew - Clefable - Bisharp - Keldeo - Manectric

Another alternative:

Salac Berry Garchomp > Landorus-Therian

*** 3rd wall breaker if you feel 2 are not enough

[Tomas Elliot]

1) AV/Lefties Scizor - this one provides you hazard control with defog

Assault Vest and Defog

Assault Vest and Defog

Assault Vest and Defog

Assault Vest and Defog

Assault Vest and Defog

Assault Vest and Defog

Assault Vest and Defog

Assault Vest and Defog

Assault Vest and Defog

Assault Vest and Defog

Assault Vest and Defog

Assault Vest and Defog

Assault Vest and Defog

Assault Vest and Defog

Assault Vest and Defog

Assault Vest and Defog

Assault Vest and Defog

Assault Vest and Defog

Assault Vest and Defog

Assault Vest and Defog

Assault Vest and Defog

Assault Vest and Defog

Assault Vest and Defog

Assault Vest and Defog

Assault Vest and Defog

Assault Vest and Defog

Assault Vest and Defog

Assault Vest and Defog

Assault Vest and Defog

Assault Vest and Defog

Assault Vest and Defog

Assault Vest and Defog

Assault Vest and Defog

Assault Vest and Defog

... Currently testing your suggestion concerning the third lineup with Bisharp over Ttar.

ASSAULT VEST AND DEFOG

[NickCrash]

Ok editing my post. I meant it with lefties.

I started with something else (namely Conkeldurr but the idea was scrapped), and the AV part was left there.

edit:

Did you take anything else into consideration, or did you just jump to the last one because you saw the mistake with AV?

You know, such mistakes can happen when one tries to look for many different options and messes up their text trying to compile their findings into a single comment. I'll just take it that you went for the "humourous response" and not the condescending one. Rant over.

[Odybld]

I thought that Defiant Milotic being listed as a threat was worse

Anyway, I like the third mod with Mega Manectric. Which I suggested in that status of yours It is a Pokemon that annoys the hell out of offensive teams that are all around in OU because of its incredible speed tier, it has the coverage to bust Lando, Ferro, Sci, a weakened Chomp, bulky waters without Ground typing open. Not a wallbreaker because of its sheer firepower, but the coverage, speed and momentum are great treats.

I still have great faith in you doing it with your original team though. Tinker and SERIOUSLY CONSIDER MORE STATUS SPREADING, and maybe even running Knock Off on Mew over something to do more item removal, especially for scarves.

About the second mod, I suggest you just go even more offensive! You have AV Raikou who is very annoying for offense for the same reasons as Manectric albeit toned down and can even pack surprise Signal Beam if you're afraid of Hoopa's wallbreaking. Add Healing Wish Defog Latias in the place of Mew and you have someone who can do her own whackamole with Draco, use Psyshock or even Chic if you want the tad more firepower, remove hazards and give you the Kiss of Life. 350 speed is great and let's hope all Mega Diancies run HP Fire too.

Call it a lazy suggestion, but she's one of the few mons that offers the same role compression as Mew and has the Kiss of Life. Yes she gets rekt by Ttar and Bisharp, but Mew had problems with them anyway and you also got Keldeo who can deal wit them.

...she's Skitty's favourite Pokemon too, that should count.

[Tomas Elliot]

Dude, take a joke <.<

I went directly to the third one merely because I was already in the process of testing the third build, which seems to be the mosr consistent overall. And Bisharp is a change I was pondering too.

But seriously, don't take offense every single time you aren't given the response you were expecting.

EDIT; @Nick, of course.

[SJMistery]

I totally disagree with you.

In particular, your team gets totaled by every single dragon dance sweeper you care to name with stealth rock support after weakening the landorus a little in some cases. Saying that sweepers are unviable? When your own team is incredibly weak to them!? Nice way to prove your point, really.

Show me replays of your battles, so i can see just WHAT kind of opponents you have played against, because I think I have an acurate guess of the "quality" of their teams.

Your Mew in particular is a massive Dragonite, Altaria or Charizard set-up bait, and landorus can't touch dragonite either, SR+packing Iron Head for Clefable (not very strange)+a Dragon Dance every time you send Landorus=immediate sweep, and the less said of what will happen if a SD Garchomp ever notices your Mew lacks Will-o-wisp, the better.

You wanted to know the reason U-turn is ALWAYS the move to go on Mew? Well, it's called Ground Types, who block the move entirely, including the switch out effect. Psychic moves suck in general, the only reason it is seen at all is because Psyshock on the Starmie, the Lati twins or on Alakazam, to make short work of the fat blobs. And I also want to avoid mentions of a Pursuit Tyranitar massacring your Mew and setting up rocks (no, volt swich does not prevent the effects of Pursuit, neither does U-turn).

Loosing Tyranitar in that team means get raped by Talonflame due to lacking rock moves on Landorus, or by any other flying type in fact. Mega Pinsir with rocks wrecks this team wide open all by itself (CC massacres poor slow Tyranitar, return at +2 outspeeds kills charizard, and with rocks it does not even need a boost, anything else can't even scratch it). YOU NEED A REVENGE KILLER AND A SWEEPER IN AN OFFENSIVE TEAM. NO QUESTIONS.

Edited January 11, 2016 by SJMistery

[Tomas Elliot]

Saying that sweepers are unviable?

You made a lot of very bad points without even bothering to provide facts to support them ("psychic moves suck"), so I usually wouldn't deign your post of a second look. However, I will address this bit right here, because people who lack proper understanding of the English language piss me off.

Not once in this entire topic did I ever say that sweepers are "unviable", simply because I am not in the business of macking ridiculous claims without backing them up (like for example, oh I don't know, "psychic moves suck"). What I did say is that, between the decline of defensive cores (which, before you jump to conclusions again, DOES NOT MEAN DEFENSIVE CORES ARE NOW UNVIABLE. It simply means that, on average, less and less people use them compared to Gen 4, and this is a fact demonstrated by usage stats. Why are people not using defensive cores? I don't know, you should ask them) and the sheer power of many new wallbreakers that Gen 6 has brought to the table (I detailed the power of Keldeo and Charizard on the special side, but you also have Mega Medicham with effectively base 200 Atk on the physical side, and many many more), it is more advantageous to run a strategy based on a pair of strong wallbreakers, than a strategy based on a set up sweeper. Simply because, between hazard control, walls removal and the turns it actually takes to set up, it will take at least 4 or 5 turns before a set up sweeper can go to town, and well, in the same amount of time a couple of wallbreakers with good synergy can potentially decimate a team.

To this I then added that, since a set up sweeper needs anything that checks it to be gone before it can come in, an offensive team that wants to use a set up sweeper must also use a wallbreaker, and since, again, wallbreakers nowadays have the potential to blast through most teams, that makes me question if spending those turns setting up is really needed, when you could just use another wallbreaker in that team slot and achieve the same results.

In short: what I said is that a powerful wallbreaker can, if properly managed, achieve without boosts what a set up sweeper achieves with boosts. And since it takes some turns to rack up boosts, this effectively means that a wallbreaker can save time, killing the same amount of opponents (realistically not more than 3) in less turns. If you think that saying this equals saying that set up sweepers are "unviable", then it means, quite simply, that you can't read, and I am afraid I cannot spare any time to teach you. I must therefore ask you to never post in a topic of mine again, at least not untill your reading skills have dramatically improved.

And this is without mentioning that I am currently testing Mega Manectric over Mega Charizard, which solves most of the problems you mentioned. Or the fact that the same problems had already been pointed out, with much better arguments, by other people, which lead to the decision to try out Manectric in the first place. Of course, you'd know all this if you could read.

[SJMistery]

You made a lot of very bad points without even bothering to provide facts to support them ("psychic moves suck"), so I usually wouldn't deign your post of a second look. However, I will address this bit right here, because people who lack proper understanding of the English language piss me off.

I will start geting off and saying that Psychic STAB has awfull coverage, and everyone knows it, as not single poison type shows up in OU bar the rarely seen Venusaur.

The only psychic moves worth using are:

Psyshock, my main exception to the coverage statement, lets's compare: Psychic gives you a 10 BP extra that never does any difference, Psyshock gives you a safe way for any special sweeper to get past AV Conkeldurr and the pink blobs. In short words,t he MOVE Psychic, which is what I was referring to, is useless as long as Psyshock is available.

Zen Headbutt, only posibily used on Gallade and Metagross who have a big 4 moveslot syndrome and in general left it out in favour of Ice Punch, because Conkeldurr is not exacly a threat to them, yet sometimes recommended to break through some Fighting resists like Azumarrill with that nice power the STAB bonus provides.

The third useful psychic type move is Stored Power who is another thing entirely, and even then is only used on some Clefable sets, on Calm Mind Espeon and Latias, or on baton pass teams

Psychic moves are nowhere to be seen as a coverage move, except on some Greninja sets when Venusaur got a spike in usage in the early XY.

Not once in this entire topic did I ever say that sweepers are "unviable", simply because I am not in the business of macking ridiculous claims without backing them up (like for example, oh I don't know, "psychic moves suck"). What I did say is that, between the decline of defensive cores (which, before you jump to conclusions again, DOES NOT MEAN DEFENSIVE CORES ARE NOW UNVIABLE. It simply means that, on average, less and less people use them compared to Gen 4, and this is a fact demonstrated by usage stats. Why are people not using defensive cores? I don't know, you should ask them) and the sheer power of many new wallbreakers that Gen 6 has brought to the table (I detailed the power of Keldeo and Charizard on the special side, but you also have Mega Medicham with effectively base 200 Atk on the physical side, and many many more), it is more advantageous to run a strategy based on a pair of strong wallbreakers, than a strategy based on a set up sweeper. Simply because, between hazard control, walls removal and the turns it actually takes to set up, it will take at least 4 or 5 turns before a set up sweeper can go to town, and well, in the same amount of time a couple of wallbreakers with good synergy can potentially decimate a team.

To this I then added that, since a set up sweeper needs anything that checks it to be gone before it can come in, an offensive team that wants to use a set up sweeper must also use a wallbreaker, and since, again, wallbreakers nowadays have the potential to blast through most teams, that makes me question if spending those turns setting up is really needed, when you could just use another wallbreaker in that team slot and achieve the same results.

Saying this and saying that sweepers are not worth the effort and thus not very viable is the exact same thing: after removing 4 enemy pokemon, what is the point of a sweeper, who by definition is supposed to break apart a team from early on?

In short: what I said is that a powerful wallbreaker can, if properly managed, achieve without boosts what a set up sweeper achieves with boosts. And since it takes some turns to rack up boosts, this effectively means that a wallbreaker can save time, killing the same amount of opponents (realistically not more than 3) in less turns. If you think that saying this equals saying that set up sweepers are "unviable", then it means, quite simply, that you can't read, and I am afraid I cannot spare any time to teach you. I must therefore ask you to never post in a topic of mine again, at least not untill your reading skills have dramatically improved.

And I said that a wallbreaker will take out 1 pokemon max before switching out and loosing momentum, while a sweeper can take out around 3 pokemon in a row in a single run. Also, wallbreakers usually need a free switch on the few pokemon they can force out, something most sweepers easily obtain due to being easily able to set up on walls with impunity.

The biggest problem of your team is that regardless of your double wallbreaker, most of the team is just too passive to send them effectively. I have seen dozens of teams, I have tested almost anything, I even contributed (and sorry for that crime) to create the Gothistall with my personal research of a potential Chansey+Sableye+Gothitelle combo. I, with a couple of friends, have successsfully created reliable teams with sets and pokémon that most people wouldn't even consider usable. YOU are supposed to teach me to play? If I say something is bad, there is a good reason.

And this is without mentioning that I am currently testing Mega Manectric over Mega Charizard, which solves most of the problems you mentioned. Or the fact that the same problems had already been pointed out, with much better arguments, by other people, which lead to the decision to try out Manectric in the first place. Of course, you'd know all this if you could read.

It does not solve them at all, Mega Manectric can't check any of the pokémon i mentioned bar Pinsir and maybe Dragonite and Talonflame, and neither he can heal himself to check them effectively long enough. In fact, it makes you even weaker to bulky Altaria (not, the HP ice can't get past of Yache Berry Garchomp either, neither it does kill Dragonite, and a Jolly Talonflame can even outspeed and oneshot Manectric with +1 Flare Blitz (i count SD on switch, then intimidate with the mega) if you dare megaenvolving the face of one due to the delayed speed change mechanics).

A more detailed answer? here it goes.

Edited January 11, 2016 by SJMistery