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Amaria: A Civil Discussion

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Honestly? Same. tbh this is probably going be a big jumbled mess of opinions haha.

Something that puts Titania at the bottom of my list of ''characters i care for'' is her unwillingness to leave behind someone who she knows for sure is toxic towards her. As someone who's also had a bad depression and knew a good amount of toxic people at the time, once I realized how toxic they were for my mentality I was able to cope and leave them behind (with the support of friends, of course), and I have been happier ever since. Thing is, Titania knows how bad Amaria is being towards her, and as we see in reshiram route leaving amaria was as easy as just saying a few words, and titania will be happier in no time. Amaria too, if she learns to cope. I'm sure its hard to leave behind someone you care for, but the realization that Amaria doesnt care for Tania's wellbeing should've been enough for someone who murders people daily. 
I might be sounding a bit salty here, but its frustrating to see someone else in kind of the same situation i was once in. I also have no empathy for a murderer, but i wont go into that here, haha.

Anyway, i'm sure there's a bunch of people who think i'm biased with my disliking of Titania since I'm a massive Taka fan. Honestly though, I believe that Taka's character was wasted in Reshiram route as a means for tania to leave amaria. There's many other ways to deal with this sort of situation, but I honestly believe this to just be bad writing, or just killing off a beloved for shock value, who knows. Either way I'm saying I dont think Taka had to die for tanias change.

This bit here is probably a bit of a random negative I have for titania, but Taka hinted at tania and MC in the WTC that he could be severly punished/murdered if he left meteor, a place he was born into. He's forced to stay there when Titania doesn't have the threat of getting murdered if she leaves Amaria. Her outburst at Taka really pisses me off, but then again, that could be why he left meteor in e18. idk lol

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1 hour ago, Ruby Red said:

Honestly? Same. tbh this is probably going be a big jumbled mess of opinions haha.

Something that puts Titania at the bottom of my list of ''characters i care for'' is her unwillingness to leave behind someone who she knows for sure is toxic towards her. As someone who's also had a bad depression and knew a good amount of toxic people at the time, once I realized how toxic they were for my mentality I was able to cope and leave them behind (with the support of friends, of course), and I have been happier ever since. Thing is, Titania knows how bad Amaria is being towards her, and as we see in reshiram route leaving amaria was as easy as just saying a few words, and titania will be happier in no time. Amaria too, if she learns to cope. I'm sure its hard to leave behind someone you care for, but the realization that Amaria doesnt care for Tania's wellbeing should've been enough for someone who murders people daily. 
I might be sounding a bit salty here, but its frustrating to see someone else in kind of the same situation i was once in. I also have no empathy for a murderer, but i wont go into that here, haha.

Anyway, i'm sure there's a bunch of people who think i'm biased with my disliking of Titania since I'm a massive Taka fan. Honestly though, I believe that Taka's character was wasted in Reshiram route as a means for tania to leave amaria. There's many other ways to deal with this sort of situation, but I honestly believe this to just be bad writing, or just killing off a beloved for shock value, who knows. Either way I'm saying I dont think Taka had to die for tanias change.

This bit here is probably a bit of a random negative I have for titania, but Taka hinted at tania and MC in the WTC that he could be severly punished/murdered if he left meteor, a place he was born into. He's forced to stay there when Titania doesn't have the threat of getting murdered if she leaves Amaria. Her outburst at Taka really pisses me off, but then again, that could be why he left meteor in e18. idk lol

Interesting perspective. While I was pushing most of my displeasure at Amaria for being the toxic force, you instead direct yours at Titania for putting up with said toxicity. I won't go too far into Titania's actions (like you said, that's a whole nother discussion), but I agree about Taka. In the Reshiram route, he's just a meatbag for Titania to slice n dice, which is unfortunate to say the least.

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Going through my first playthrough of Reborn, when the time finally came for me to choose a split for the Zekrom or Reshiram routes, I personally chose the Reshiram route- after doing a bit of looking around I figured that a more blunt, or "truthful" route of this story fit the dark mood of Reborn more. And, oh boy, did it deliver.


(Apologies if this is the wrong place to say this, as I know this is a discussion about Amaria, but I just wanted to comment:) You pointed out that on your second run of Reborn, your perspective on some of the characters had changed- which I thought was pretty interesting! Two of my favorite characters that you pointed out were Corey, and ironically, Fern (Yes, Fern). As for me, Corey already had a place of sympathy the first time I realized that he had been unmasked as part of Team Meteor in front of his own daughter- and his death was so sad (Yes, I cried-), and yet fitting, I feel. As for Fern, I never really hated him, I just thought he was a jerk but found his little jabs at the MC funny. As you said, there's a sense of insecurity from him, which begs the question as to why? (If his story is ever developed more I do hope it might explain why he acts the way he does), and the moment I saw him on Team Meteor's side, his character just piqued my interest more (that's a topic for some other time, this is about Amaria, not Fern!).

 

Continuing: 

 

When I finally got to Amaria's gym, the part where she tries to literally drown the MC is certainly shocking, but I suppose you could say in her head, it was very much justified. Titania was the only person she could lean on, the only person who wouldn't leave her, and so obviously she depended on her so much it that Tania had become her lifeline- but it got to the point where it was so much, it was toxic. As you said, Amaria leaves Tania trapped- so it was certainly a tight spot for her to be in. She obviously needs help- professional help- and she wasn't going to get it herself- which just led her to spiral worse and worse until she just becomes unhinged and tries to kill the MC. Personally, Amaria didn't really bother me too much (?), as for the relationship between these two characters, I was more focused on Titania's side, since the idea of someone being trapped in such a difficult spot was interesting to me- as well as her breaking away from Amaria in the Reshiram route. However, even though my opinion on Amaria was typically surface level for most of the story, there is one part that really stung me the wrong way.

 

It's when you try and find her in her gym, and she says:

 

"I know- She doesn't love me. I've tasted the disdain on her lips a half-thousand times. I'd suck the venom right from her tongue a half-thousand more if it meant she would always be here..."

 

The fact that Amaria is so vividly aware that Titania feels trapped in this relationship, and yet still keeps going, is so disturbing to me. For her to be so dependent on Titania and ignore her friend's feelings like that just for herself was really the moment I started to realize that something was really wrong. I wonder if Amaria's love for Titania is really love? Or maybe it's just some sort of twisted kind of dependence on her because she's never had anyone else to lean on.

 

Either way, Amaria's actions could also be said as justified- her depression leads her to act this way- since she's in such a dark place, so she can't really see the rights and wrongs in her actions. However, I'm not the one to say these things, as I've never really experienced depression (so I hope I didn't come off as ignorant n~n;;), but sympathy for everyone who had to go through it. Yet at the same time, for her to act so selfishly is also shocking, as you would expect her to care more for how Titania feels in the relationship as well- and yet she doesn't. In the end, I would simply say she's acting human- someone who has been through too much, and never really got the help they severely needed, nor did they ever learn to pick themselves up and hold themselves responsible to heal, as you said. Both Titania's and Amaria's stories are sad, as well as so bluntly human. People make mistakes, shy away from standing up to toxic relationships, make the wrong choices, and sometimes even spiral down a painful path because there was never anyone to really help them get up- just like Amaria. 

 

I'm not sure if her actions can ever be justified- but I still think that doesn't take away the fact that the story of these two is so very much human.

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5 minutes ago, Sopi said:

Going through my first playthrough of Reborn, when the time finally came for me to choose a split for the Zekrom or Reshiram routes, I personally chose the Reshiram route- after doing a bit of looking around I figured that a more blunt, or "truthful" route of this story fit the dark mood of Reborn more. And, oh boy, did it deliver.


(Apologies if this is the wrong place to say this, as I know this is a discussion about Amaria, but I just wanted to comment:) You pointed out that on your second run of Reborn, your perspective on some of the characters had changed- which I thought was pretty interesting! Two of my favorite characters that you pointed out were Corey, and ironically, Fern (Yes, Fern). As for me, Corey already had a place of sympathy the first time I realized that he had been unmasked as part of Team Meteor in front of his own daughter- and his death was so sad (Yes, I cried-), and yet fitting, I feel. As for Fern, I never really hated him, I just thought he was a jerk but found his little jabs at the MC funny. As you said, there's a sense of insecurity from him, which begs the question as to why? (If his story is ever developed more I do hope it might explain why he acts the way he does), and the moment I saw him on Team Meteor's side, his character just piqued my interest more (that's a topic for some other time, this is about Amaria, not Fern!).

 

Continuing: 

 

When I finally got to Amaria's gym, the part where she tries to literally drown the MC is certainly shocking, but I suppose you could say in her head, it was very much justified. Titania was the only person she could lean on, the only person who wouldn't leave her, and so obviously she depended on her so much it that Tania had become her lifeline- but it got to the point where it was so much, it was toxic. As you said, Amaria leaves Tania trapped- so it was certainly a tight spot for her to be in. She obviously needs help- professional help- and she wasn't going to get it herself- which just led her to spiral worse and worse until she just becomes unhinged and tries to kill the MC. Personally, Amaria didn't really bother me too much (?), as for the relationship between these two characters, I was more focused on Titania's side, since the idea of someone being trapped in such a difficult spot was interesting to me- as well as her breaking away from Amaria in the Reshiram route. However, even though my opinion on Amaria was typically surface level for most of the story, there is one part that really stung me the wrong way.

 

It's when you try and find her in her gym, and she says:

 

"I know- She doesn't love me. I've tasted the disdain on her lips a half-thousand times. I'd suck the venom right from her tongue a half-thousand more if it meant she would always be here..."

 

The fact that Amaria is so vividly aware that Titania feels trapped in this relationship, and yet still keeps going, is so disturbing to me. For her to be so dependent on Titania and ignore her friend's feelings like that just for herself was really the moment I started to realize that something was really wrong. I wonder if Amaria's love for Titania is really love? Or maybe it's just some sort of twisted kind of dependence on her because she's never had anyone else to lean on.

 

Either way, Amaria's actions could also be said as justified- her depression leads her to act this way- since she's in such a dark place, so she can't really see the rights and wrongs in her actions. However, I'm not the one to say these things, as I've never really experienced depression (so I hope I didn't come off as ignorant n~n;;), but sympathy for everyone who had to go through it. Yet at the same time, for her to act so selfishly is also shocking, as you would expect her to care more for how Titania feels in the relationship as well- and yet she doesn't. In the end, I would simply say she's acting human- someone who has been through too much, and never really got the help they severely needed, nor did they ever learn to pick themselves up and hold themselves responsible to heal, as you said. Both Titania's and Amaria's stories are sad, as well as so bluntly human. People make mistakes, shy away from standing up to toxic relationships, make the wrong choices, and sometimes even spiral down a painful path because there was never anyone to really help them get up- just like Amaria. 

 

I'm not sure if her actions can ever be justified- but I still think that doesn't take away the fact that the story of these two is so very much human.

You definitely don't come off as ignorant, you're good in that regard. You condensed what I was trying to say rather well; Amaria, knowing her impact on Titania, still refuses to let her go, or to seek help to gain the mental strength to move on, which is what upsets me about her character. Like I said, the only thing holding me back from doing the Truth route is Taka. He really didn't need to die IMO, it just feels like they needed a punching bag for Titania but she, ironically, is in almost the same situation as him.

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1 hour ago, Shaderu said:

Interesting perspective. While I was pushing most of my displeasure at Amaria for being the toxic force, you instead direct yours at Titania for putting up with said toxicity. I won't go too far into Titania's actions (like you said, that's a whole nother discussion), but I agree about Taka. In the Reshiram route, he's just a meatbag for Titania to slice n dice, which is unfortunate to say the least.

 

2 hours ago, Ruby Red said:

Honestly? Same. tbh this is probably going be a big jumbled mess of opinions haha.

Something that puts Titania at the bottom of my list of ''characters i care for'' is her unwillingness to leave behind someone who she knows for sure is toxic towards her. As someone who's also had a bad depression and knew a good amount of toxic people at the time, once I realized how toxic they were for my mentality I was able to cope and leave them behind (with the support of friends, of course), and I have been happier ever since. Thing is, Titania knows how bad Amaria is being towards her, and as we see in reshiram route leaving amaria was as easy as just saying a few words, and titania will be happier in no time. Amaria too, if she learns to cope. I'm sure its hard to leave behind someone you care for, but the realization that Amaria doesnt care for Tania's wellbeing should've been enough for someone who murders people daily. 
I might be sounding a bit salty here, but its frustrating to see someone else in kind of the same situation i was once in. I also have no empathy for a murderer, but i wont go into that here, haha.

Anyway, i'm sure there's a bunch of people who think i'm biased with my disliking of Titania since I'm a massive Taka fan. Honestly though, I believe that Taka's character was wasted in Reshiram route as a means for tania to leave amaria. There's many other ways to deal with this sort of situation, but I honestly believe this to just be bad writing, or just killing off a beloved for shock value, who knows. Either way I'm saying I dont think Taka had to die for tanias change.

This bit here is probably a bit of a random negative I have for titania, but Taka hinted at tania and MC in the WTC that he could be severly punished/murdered if he left meteor, a place he was born into. He's forced to stay there when Titania doesn't have the threat of getting murdered if she leaves Amaria. Her outburst at Taka really pisses me off, but then again, that could be why he left meteor in e18. idk lol

To be fair, Anna does say something about Taka's death being salvageable if you beat Solaris's Garchomp. We just have to wait and see.

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Just now, nhehvnukl said:

To be fair, Anna does say something about Taka's death being salvageable if you beat Solaris's Garchomp. We just have to wait and see.

Yeah, i had a tinfoil hat theory that jirachi would wish for someone to be ''reborn'', tho that probably might be the case lmao

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I think there's an aspect of the overarching story that is worth keeping in mind when discussing this particular arc: by the time the player arrives, the first legs of Team Meteor's operation had already been effect for a few years. It's entirely possible that by the time Amaria herself found out that there was actually something severely wrong with herself, every respectable psychologist had already fled the Reborn Region, leaving some hardly scrupulous hack hanging out in 7th Street as the only option. Amaria is far from the only character with some serious untreated psychological issues in the game, though she does stand out as the most openly broken when she goes off the deep end. And while Titania certainly could have sought out professional assistance before Solaris ruined the lives of many in ways he hadn't planned on, she really seems like the type of person who would avoid asking for help from anyone if she can help it.

 

...At least Amaria had some sort of coping mechanism available to her, however ineffective it ultimately proved to be... 

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1 hour ago, nhehvnukl said:

 

To be fair, Anna does say something about Taka's death being salvageable if you beat Solaris's Garchomp. We just have to wait and see.

Well, good thing I used up a Focus Sash to Destiny Bond him out of existence then lol. If only I picked Reshiram...

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13 hours ago, Autumn Zephyr said:

I think there's an aspect of the overarching story that is worth keeping in mind when discussing this particular arc: by the time the player arrives, the first legs of Team Meteor's operation had already been effect for a few years. It's entirely possible that by the time Amaria herself found out that there was actually something severely wrong with herself, every respectable psychologist had already fled the Reborn Region, leaving some hardly scrupulous hack hanging out in 7th Street as the only option. Amaria is far from the only character with some serious untreated psychological issues in the game, though she does stand out as the most openly broken when she goes off the deep end. And while Titania certainly could have sought out professional assistance before Solaris ruined the lives of many in ways he hadn't planned on, she really seems like the type of person who would avoid asking for help from anyone if she can help it.

 

...At least Amaria had some sort of coping mechanism available to her, however ineffective it ultimately proved to be... 

See this is fair, but it should be noted that our friend Dr. Sigmund Connal is also a known and reasonably well respected Psychologist before his entry into the ranks of Team Meteor, as such I don't entirely think it reasonable to believe that that many Psychologists actually left the region. Now whether his lovely treatment would actually be beneficial to her, would be another story entirely. She may find herself in for a little shock.

 

..sorry I just had to put that pun in somewhere.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, A̸͖̬͎̖̯̼̫͍ͣ̾ͧ͆͋͘͟ͅžͫ͗̈̅͗ͯ said:

See this is fair, but it should be noted that our friend Dr. Sigmund Connal is also a known and reasonably well respected Psychologist before his entry into the ranks of Team Meteor, as such I don't entirely think it reasonable to believe that that many Psychologists actually left the region. Now whether his lovely treatment would actually be beneficial to her, would be another story entirely. She may find herself in for a little shock.

 

..sorry I just had to put that pun in somewhere.

I ignored Dr. Sigmund on purpose, though you are probably right in that I should have at least given him a mention. He seems just a little preoccupied with running an orphanage, which just so happens to house two/three (I'm not sure if Saphira was released before or after the collapse of Yureyu) Gym Leaders and two members of the Elite 4, which seems like it would be a bit of a strain on available time and resources. We also know he has a tendency to turn away people as he sees fit, which certainly doesn't help his case any. Even without his questionable methods, I just don't see him even bothering to help her out...

 

(I personally think he would've fled if he hadn't promised to watch over his late crush's children, but that might just be my low opinion on the guy)

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17 minutes ago, Autumn Zephyr said:

I ignored Dr. Sigmund on purpose, though you are probably right in that I should have at least given him a mention. He seems just a little preoccupied with running an orphanage, which just so happens to house two/three (I'm not sure if Saphira was released before or after the collapse of Yureyu) Gym Leaders and two members of the Elite 4, which seems like it would be a bit of a strain on available time and resources. We also know he has a tendency to turn away people as he sees fit, which certainly doesn't help his case any. Even without his questionable methods, I just don't see him even bothering to help her out...

 

(I personally think he would've fled if he hadn't promised to watch over his late crush's children, but that might just be my low opinion on the guy)

For the record as far as I can tell he only really turned away challengers to said Gym Leaders due to him being rather controlling of their activities, he doesn't particularly seem like he would turn away patients or children, especially given how focused he was on taking Heather in after he found out that she was an orphan.

Also; his late crush? If you mean Lizzy, that's the name of his sister who's the primary reason he's so intent on being a psychologist and his focus on shock therapy in general. She was denied said treatment (due to it's legality being in question at the time or something along those lines?)to help with her -own- depression(notable to bring up in this conversation in particular given the main topic actually.) and in turn ended up taking her own life as a result of it.

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33 minutes ago, A̸͖̬͎̖̯̼̫͍ͣ̾ͧ͆͋͘͟ͅžͫ͗̈̅͗ͯ said:

Also; his late crush? If you mean Lizzy, that's the name of his sister who's the primary reason he's so intent on being a psychologist and his focus on shock therapy in general. She was denied said treatment (due to it's legality being in question at the time or something along those lines?)to help with her -own- depression(notable to bring up in this conversation in particular given the main topic actually.) and in turn ended up taking her own life as a result of it.

...Uhm, Whoops? It's been a while since I got anything akin to backstory on him, and most of what I recall has been through the overwhelmingly cryptic Void-Kiss sequence, so it's more than a little likely that there's a combination of both misremembrance and misinterpretation at play on my part. But if this isn't it, then what was his relationship with Radomus...? 🤔

 

Anyway, I'll concede here and add Sigmund to the list of available psychologists for Amaria to potentially see. I still don't feel comfortable with even trying to suggest him, but he's still more qualified than the back-ally doctor on 7th Street, and more easily found than him to boot. If the girls even tried to find help, they probably would've thought of approaching him. Which brings back to OP's point. Full circle, get!

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I agree with basically everything that's been said. i plan to do one massive monotyped run once i finish E19 for the first time. and this time i'll be exploring everywhere, talking to everyone and doing everything i can to experience the full story.

 

what i know about amaria and titana stems from the ingame dialogue and tania's diary, that's it. and from it i can see Amaria is at fault for doing nothing about her obvious depression issues and tania is truly trying her best. on the flipside its a touchy subject to bring up and being as blunt as that may come off as offensive to people who have serious experience with depression IRL. speaking from experience as the Tania of a duo (my housemate, basically my brother now. has personality disorder and suffers bouts of insomnia depression etc) sometimes it can be difficult to stand strong as the pillar of hope the other person needs, but if you can stay there through the thick and thin, even if you dont do much besides be a shoulder to cry on. its enough to help. 

 

Psychiatrists can only do so much, sometimes the best help for depression is just good friends and people to depend on. Tania has the misfortune of being the only pillar holding up amaria's crumbling psyche. but if she could properly make friends with the other leaders like Julia, Shelly and Hardy. even some of the rivals like Cain and Heather. she could improve and lessen the burden on tania, might make tania some new friends and feel a bit happier herself. 

 

i am curious to know what, if anything. will be done with this duo in the endgame, or if their arc was the finale for them. i hope not since "Congrats everything is back to how it used to be, god fking dammit" from Tania followed by "I'm OK with living a lie"/"i'm even more depressed than i was before" from Amaria is a sour note to end on. 

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I can't say anything to disagree here. That said, she fulfills her role well and I do feel as if ultimately she will be lost regardless of which route the player takes and I'm content with that. She's pitiable, yet despicable at the same time.

 

As for Titania though, I don't understand the hate. She has a marvelous character.  From the first moment where you meet her in the Adventurine woods, through all her interactions with various characters. Regardless of which route you take, there is development. Her personality clashes with many other characters, from Amaria, to Taka, to Florinia even and those interactions enrich both characters, and develop them further. 

 

She also has some of the best lines in-game. 

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To make my final opinion on Tania and Amaria i still need to see the rest of the backstory, im really curious but yeah, i don’t like any of them and found really unfair that Taka die as a way to move those two characters from their “comfort zone” Taka has been trying to fight his deamons and even if he tries to just follow the mc to “show him the way” i still feel that he has tried much harder than Tania and Amaria. I made other run (mono ghost) to get the other rute and let Amaria and Tania stuck and see Taka move on for himself and survive he deserve it more in my opinion. Sorry for my bad English (;v;)

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The Titania/Amaria story hit very, very close to home for me as I have also struggled with severe depression. I took the Reshiram Route for my first playthrough, and sympathised with Amaria a little re: drowning the player because of her situation. The symbols of her love are literally given to an intruder who she can't remember, Titania is nowhere to be seen and I took her action as a sort of... unstable, panicked act of desperation which she later apologises for. 

 

I have less sympathy for her when it comes to the fact that she is consciously and knowingly keeping Titania in a relationship which she knows damages her, and on this I agree with the OP and other posters here. Her mental health provides an explanation for her actions, but not an excuse - Amaria puts Titania into this situation because she clings to this one person for a source of stability despite there being others like Julia who she could help connect with. I know full well that this is far easier said than done, but it seems as if the thought of trying this has not even been considered by Amaria at this point of the story.

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I totally agree that Amaria is selfish and refusing to improve herself. Maybe she enjoys the feeling of manipulating her only friend as her wish. I would rather say Amaria’s emotion towards Titania is closer to dependency like a child who needs parents to take care of him/her, rather than homosexual love. The only difference is my attitude towards Amaria. Your anger towards her stems from your disappointment to her refusing facing reality and changing herself. In my perspective, however, just like my attitude towards Fern, I only show pity to her, not only because her team no matter which route or single/double cannot touch Shedinja, but also because her personality cannot actually befriend anyone to have a true, at least, friendship. 

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