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Big News!


Joker

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Hello people. Quinn/Joker(discord) here bringing you a pretty major update regarding Redemption league. A lot of you are aware of the break we took last weekend. There were two reasons we took that break. One of course was to help prevent burn out and give our leaders and staff a little vacation. The other was something that could be a little controversial. When we were spit balling ideas for Season 3 the idea of allowing legendaries came up. Opinions were mixed at first but after some testing we decided to allow quite a few of them. However, there were some we outright said no to without even giving them a chance, or even trying to balance it. So, we took a break to further test some of these legendary pokemon. We've tested these said Pokemon for two weeks, well most of them. There are still a few we need to touch on, but we wanted this out there before league started as I mentioned. Here comes the controversial part. While the previously allowed legendary Pokemon are allowed for both leaders and challengers, these new additions will only be allowed for leaders. Trust me, I know what you're thinking. "Leaders are hard enough already!" These additions may be a buff, but it's not necessarily to make your challenge harder. Some of these are to add some variety or help the leader deal with threats they otherwise struggle with. And should something actually pose way to big of a problem we can always re-ban them. That said, there's no guarantee these Pokemon are used against you. We're gonna make sure the leaders don't go overboard with them, and on top of that we do have restrictions for some of them as well. What I mean by that is that some of these legendaries will require both slots of the leaders legendary allowance. Essentially, if they use one of these two slot Pokemon they are only allowed that Pokemon on that team. 

 

Example: Say Jasper wants to use Mewtwo(we're not allowing Mewtwo don't stress). Mewtwo would take two slots. So Jasper couldn't use Mewtwo and say, his ace, Meloetta on the same team. However, he could use Meloetta and Latias on one team as they are only one slot each.

 

With all that said, and hopefully clear to understand, lets dive into the new shit. I will mark every Pokemon that takes two slots with an asterisk(*), and add "testing" after anything we're still working on. 

 

Spoiler

 

Electric- 

Zapdos

Zeraora(testing)

 

Grass-

Celebi

 

Ice-

Kyurem

 

Fairy-

Mega Diancie(No Diamond Storm)

Tapu Fini

 

Psychic-

Mew*

Celebi

 

Ghost-

Nothing.

 

Dragon-

Kyurem

Zygarde-10

 

Rock-

Mega Diancie(Diamond Storm allowed)

Nihilego

Stakataka*

 

Water-

Protean Greninja

 

Normal-

Nothing

 

Ground-

Zygarde- 10(Thousand Arrows allowed)

 

Fire-

Entei

 

Bug-

Buzzwole

 

Dark-

Protean Greninja

 

Steel-

Jirachi*

Heatran*

 

Fighting-

Keldeo

Buzzwole

 

Poison-

Nihilego

 

 

There you have it. Flying is excluded since its the champions type and they are allowed non-Uber banned legendaries anyway. 

 

Update: 

 

BIGGER NEWS!

 

We're allowing the following legendaries for CHALLENGERS! Mew, Celebi, Zygarde-10(Zydoge), Nihilego, and Zeraora! These are ALL one slot mons so you could combine them with another legendary. Furthermore, we're allowing you all to change one Pokemon on your team. However, there is just one little restriction. The mon you change to must share one move with the mon you're replacing. And to be clear, the mon you change to has to be a completely different one, otherwise it would just be a move change. You're free to make this change whenever you like until you earn a badge from any leader. So use it wisely, or don't. Up to you, really.

 

 

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I like this. Some leaders get a straight upgrade while others get a bit of a sidegrade from other mons (Buzzwhole to Heracross, as that, usually comes down to what the user like better).

And with that said, I will enjoy seeing Ariel jump up many brackets with mega diancie, with or without diamond storm (allows xem to focus on special attacks over running mixed, either way, cuz Power Gem is still a thing)

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When you said the endgame was gonna be better than S2's : ^ ). Kinda shocking how you thought suspecting Zeraora for a b1 leader was a great idea. Also sure, I love unnecessary powercreeps and so have several of the playerbase so great job on that. 

Getting serious here, you trying to make it better made it worse and it's shocking on how this is being handled in Discord. I'd say it's worse than pbood2's server but that's unnecessary and plain rude. I haven't received a proper rebuttal to my argument even which is a bit rude imo. Regardless I've lost my trust in some of you lot seeing as the main purpose was either handling threats and how the stars were based on how a mon synergies with the type. Since the * rating it's based on type synergy I want to point out both of steel's new toys don't even need any other legends due to the massive reward they give. Keldeo not being starred is also shocking as well for similar reasons. Dunno why stakataka is  starred either due to it's main reason for it's former ban being based solely on "It's god under tr" as far as I was told. I'm pretty sure Helen has a dislike for multis as well, she's barely used it and I doubt she'd change just because she got a wall. Zapdos should be * since it gives electric quite a few benefits although I'm fairly sure it'd give major rewards for the price as well, correct? Finally if there's one thing worth commending, it's the fact that you gave Lucifer his based Protean Gren back, good on that tbh. tl;dr I feel this was hastily done, since it seemed that these mons either took a day or two to suspect and debate for each of them but hey that's none of my business. 

Add on: Stakataka also dies to any based 4x stab (and nearly any non stab) after rocks and w/out sand storm does not wanna stay in on any special stabs whatsoever.

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Well I'll answer a few of those ever-so-eloquent concerns of yours.

 

And I'll start by reiterating that these may still be suspect to change.
Stakataka (Rock)



Trick Room isn't only for Triples. In singles, Staka just needs to come in on anything without Water/Ground/Fighting coverage to set up Trick Room and tear teams apart with its damage, or switch out to any of Rock's other annoying slow mons (Gigalith, Tyranitar, and Shuckle, to name a few common Helen-mons). Not to mention Aerodactyl in back to clean up once her Trick Room powerhouses rip holes in your team. That said, it is very manageable to face if played right (like any powerhouse ever)

So it got starred because between Diancie and Regirock to take advantage of Trick Room (as a support/setup tank respectively) and Nihilego to sweep after TR's over, the amount of pressure it puts is really high on teams. Diancie is also a viable Trick Room singles user, but doesn't have nearly the amount of turn-1 pressure that Stakataka brings with 131 attack Stone Edges and Gyro Balls.

 

Zapdos (Electric)



The main difference between being starred and not is how strong the legendaries work together on a team. Bar Zapdos itself, the other options are Raikou, Silvally, and potentially Zeraora (I'll get to him later). Silvally offers odd ends of coverage that any type likes in the right matchups, but often struggles due to a lack of an item or particularly powerful moves. As a result, it tends to underperform compared to most non-legendaries. Raikou is a fairly fast sweeper that -can- setup Calm Minds which is relatively unique in Electric (only other relevant setup being Raichu) and can appreciate the bulk and support that Zapdos offers. This pairing we'll keep a close eye on, but fast volt-turn into Zapdos is going to happen regardless of Raikou's involvement. We'll keep an eye out for this combination in particular.

 

Zeraora (Electric)



It's unreleased in Smogon but a quick look at its stats and movepool show it's essentially a (much) faster Electivire with less coverage options (only Fire/Fighting/Dark for decent damage) It can run mixed with a decent 102 SpAtk, but it fairly easy to wear down with pretty low bulk and no recovery, not to mention potential LO recoil and CC drops. It can be hard to outspeed, but loses to Scarf or +1 Base 80s by 1 point (Chandelure, Gyarados, Excadrill, to name a few relevant). That said, we're still testing it, but moreso in Doubles/Triples than Singles. It has Fake Out, meaning it can give Tailwind supports (Emolga and potentially Zapdos) an easier time, and allows Togedemaru or Raichu to be replaced/reserved. With Volt Absorb, it fits perfectly into the "Discharge spam" team. It's still marked for testing, but those are my current observations.

 

Keldeo (Fighting)



Keldeo's a very hit-or-miss on teams because it really only ever uses STABs. Either you have a Water+Fight resist, or you don't, and base 129 Specs Hydro can hurt. Most challengers we've seen climb do (Latias, Venusaur, Gyarados, Azumarill) but even then these can be shaky checks. We'll keep a close eye on this one.

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A few questions/observations:

 

1. When are these changes going into effect? I'd assume it'd be as of the next Redemption session, but clarity would be appreciated.

 

2. If you don't think that these 'mons are powerful enough to require outright banning, why aren't they available to challengers? Not complaining (although I want to use Celebi), just curious why this decision was made.

 

3. Will there be some form of compensation for trainers with regard to these new 'mons (i.e. allowing us to change one of the 'mons in our team to reflect the new threats our teams have to deal with)?

 

4. If it's not too much to ask, can we get similar explanations as above from the team for all the newly unbanned 'mons? In particular, why a 'mon gets unbanned for one of its types but not the other.

 

5. You've said you've tested them. In what way(s) were they tested?

 

My overall opinion of this is sceptical but optimistic. I feel like the 'mons were banned for a reason, and making them leader only is super sketchy, especially given that (as far as I can tell) there's not been much interaction with people outside the league on this, which means I'm not sure how it'll affect the average challenger. However, I'm equally aware that my connection to the league is limited (I'm not on the Discord, and I only really visit Showdown during the weekends), and the fact that you're aware that this is a work in progress is a positive sign. I feel like, however, this really should've been something that was shown (in a post like this so everyone participating was aware) to be what you were doing during the break week in the first place.

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1) You are correct, sorry this wasn't clarified. These will be available this weekend (12/15) but don't expect them to be used too much.

 

2) Everything banned at the start of S3 was either because 1) they were too strong in one of the leaders' hands, and/or 2) they were too strong in the hands of a challenger (((Mega)) Diancie, Zapdos). 

 

3) We have something in the works, but are still fine polishing it, and it'll hopefully get a better initial response than... this. Stay tuned.

 

4) Different types have different play styles, and the leaders themselves often just didn't like how a certain mon works with their playstyles. I'll try to recall what I can about the things that only one type has:



Kyurem (Dragon) - While Haley jumped on the idea of a new legendary, Ken was pretty reluctant about Kyurem. It sounded like a good idea at first, being a Dragon that doesn't totally die to Ice types (even though Ninetales, Weavile, and Mamoswine can all hit it regardless...) He tried it in different formats and he would just use it as a straight wall that would sweep everything behind Sub, or would slap Specs on it and click Draco (because Dragon needs more nukers amirite) As mentioned above, most of the things Kyurem is intended to deal with get past it anyways, and it helps pick on the things that already struggle vs Dragon even more. In Ice, a type that greatly struggles against half of everything that exists, Kyurem offers some more power to help push through things it otherwise struggles against without offering too much in the defensive department bar another thing that doesn't instantly die to Fire attacks.

 

Jirachi (Psychic) - Jirachi's very versatile in that it can be a bulky support, or run scarf and become Better-Togekiss(TM) Psychic is by no means lacking anything Jirachi has to offer, with speed and supports galore, and enough Physical and Steel coverage to perform well enough. Steel, however, is very lacking in supports as each wall tries its best to deal with whatever threat it faces 1 on 1, or a fast attacker with reliable damage (RIP Megagross you will not be missed)

 

Stakataka (Steel) - Stakataka is probably the best Trick Room sweeper in the game, blahblah I hate talking about Stakataka again and again. Steel has a much easier time using TR Triples than Rock and has a much higher chance of doing so.

 

Heatran (Fire) - No one wants base 130 SpAtk Scarf Eruption in sun triples. No one has fun, even Emilia said (signed?) so.

 

Keldeo (Water) - The biggest thing for allowing Keldeo on Fighting is that Fighting completely lacks any form of reliable Water damage or solid special attackers, all of which Water has and more. Water has everything it could ever want and is not starving for base necessities like some other types.

 

Tapu Fini (Water) - See Keldeo. The main reason we even allowed Fini was so Fairy could have a safe-ish switch in to monsters like Scizor and Metagross who otherwise win against Fairy by pressing one button. The terrain effect is negligible, and Fini itself suffers some pretty big issues (no self healing, mainly.)

 

(Mega) Diancie - Diancie's really weird to me in League. In base form, it can be a very tanky support and be a great TR/screen setter while also dishing out fair amounts of damage. Mega Diancie is completely different, being a fast sweeper with huge damage. The reason we banned Diancite was because being able to switch back and forth between a slow tank and a fast sweeper at the flip of an item was something really hard for leaders to deal with (I still imagine the set being Earth Power, Moonblast, Trick Room, Diamond Storm/Power Gem) We've seen some other Megas in the past that change pretty drastically before (Metagross, Gyarados...) and Diancie really takes this to a new extreme, so we banned it altogether. Since we decided to start "complex bans" on leaders vs challengers, we tested Diancie on both Rock and Fairy and saw it was much more manageable for challengers to get past when they recognize the set (Fairy and Rock have pretty easy-to-recognize Megas) Well I just wrote a whole paragraph about something that doesn't answer anything so read Diamond Storm below.

 

Diamond Storm (Fairy) - So this is a weird move. It hits all adjacent enemies for 100 BP, and has a 50% chance to give the user +2 defense. That's really good. But, in multi formats, Diamond Storm has a separate chance to get the boost for each target it hits. Meaning, Diancie has a 12.5% chance to get +6 defense off one attack in Triples. As mentioned above, Diancie is really good in Trick Room, and Ariel is no stranger to Trick Room Triples. With all of the support Fairy already has to offer itself, making an indestructible Diancie isn't as fun as it sounds. Rock, on the other hand, can still pull of TR Triples if it wanted to, but without nearly as much support as Fairy. Helen's made it clear she's only using Singles anyways, so we don't expect many problems will arise from this one move.

 

5) The leaders looked for the kinds of trainer cards they would use X legendary against and build accordingly in any format, and we tried them in places where leader supposedly had advantage. These ones are the ones that weren't too bad in testing + the leaders were somewhat comfortable using.

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@Roswell

 

1. Today. Though whether or not you see them is up to the leaders themselves, really.

 

2. It may be possible to allow some of them for challengers, but definitely not all of them. Unlike leaders, the challengers have the option to build a team with any number of type combinations and possibilities within our tiers. And while yes, leaders do review your trainer cards, they are still restricted to their type and can't synergize as well as a well constructed challenger team. Each type was looked at individually and the new additions were decided accordingly. That's why you see Steel able to use Jirachi, but not Psychic. Allowing all these for challengers too would just be out right pandemonium and on top of that we'd have to keep track of all the two slots as well. Not to mention people far in might not even want to restart anyway.

 

3. I'm not going to promise anything but that is something we're looking at currently. However, as there's no guarantee you'll even face these so called threats, there's also no guarantee there will be compensation. But we will discuss it.

 

4. It basically boils down to if the type needs it and if it would break the type. I'll use Psychic as an example again because it's an easy one. Psychic has a lot of options in terms of legendaries. Originally we had a lot more than just Mew and Celebi listed for it. Latios, Mega Latias, and Jirachi were also there. But they were quickly removed because they would break the type. Mew and Celebi are pretty passive mons, obviously you can get creative with Mew, but its restricted to using two slots so Psychic loses out on other options. Jirachi is also overkill on Psychic because of its many roles from a scarf pivot, wish support, etc. Not to mention its move pool. Whereas on steel it's kind of outclassed by Bronzong in its support role because of how amazing levitate as an ability is for it. And the leader doesn't lose two slots for using Bronzong either. However, Steel also lacks reliable recovery on a lot of its Pokemon so Jirachi would help with that. We'll still be monitoring Jirachi on Steel because Wish support can't really be ignored, but its less of a problem here than it is on Psychic. Baz explained some of the others, but if you are curious about any more feel free to ask.

 

5. They were tested against teams they would likely be used against.

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Fair enough. The fact that there are some one type only rulings does at least indicate fairly rigorous testing, and so long as an eye is being kept on how they're affecting the actual matches, rather than just the testing ones, it seems reasonable. RIP Mira & Jessica getting nothing tho :P

Edited by Roswell
Typo
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Hmm... guess I'll go for this, then (Bold indicating the move that needs to be kept to qualify):

Spoiler

Before - Nidoking:

Sludge Wave

Earth Power

Fire Blast

Stealth Rock

 

After - Nihilego:

Sludge Wave

Power Gem

Hidden Power Fire

Grass Knot

 

Edited by Roswell
Explaining the bolding
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Might as well take the opportunity:

 

Spoiler

Serperior: 

Taunt

Leaf Storm

Dragon Pulse

Hidden Power Fire

 

 

Magnezone:

Volt Switch

Thunderbolt

Flash Cannon

Hidden Power Fire

 

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Spoiler

Killua (Zeraora) @ Protective Pads  
Ability: Volt Absorb  
Shiny: Yes  
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe  
Hasty Nature  
- Fake Out  
- Plasma Fists  
- Close Combat  
- Hidden Power [Ice]

 

Cobalion  
Ability: Justified  
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe  
Jolly Nature  
- Close Combat  
- Volt Switch  
- Iron Head  
- Swords Dance

 

 

 this mon is useless so changing it. hf

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Spoiler

Conkeldurr 
 - Knock Off  
- Drain Punch  
- Mach Punch  
- Wide Guard

to

Aegislash  
Ability: Stance Change  
- King's Shield  
- Wide Guard  
- Shadow Ball  
- Flash Cannon

 

Here ya go, gonna need this steel for ariel so I don't get fuckled

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