Redemption League Survey

[Azeria]

I've already made a poll on this that I'll link below but just to clarify, how do you feel about the current difficulty level in the league? Too hard, too easy or what? I've been seeing some rather continuous debating on this topic going on so I thought a thread for proper discussion would be better.

 

Here's the poll, please do vote if you haven't already and leave your thoughts on said topics here too. http://www.strawpoll.me/12424048/r

[DW~]

"Do y'all think league's too hard?">>Its more challenging than S1,thats for sure and along with my other various gripes (like Oliver being broken and it likely not getting fixed) I really dont have too much to say except that it could be a bit easier,but only for the sake of a lot of the newcomers. As I've noticed,a lot of Rebornians have an issue in which if they dont like something and would rather get past it,many would either restart,not make any changes due to stubbornness or something akin to that,or hell even quit altogether. I also wonder how the league would be like sans Megagross or other megas since a lot of the new difficulty can be attributed to it since types cant adapt to in certain formats (Ice) and the leaders have had to come up with increasingly new strats to fight it. For example Haley spams triples because of the power creep,as the same can be said about Olivia due to Megagross' sheer power in singles. In short,much of the league's new difficulty is caused by many of the leaders being unable to adapt in more commonly used formats like singles than in S1,and have such learned to play multis better in addition to retaining their past knowledge from S1 for the most part>>This is from earlier but is fairly accurate Also Azery approves of this so if this breaks the rules, feel free to ban him kappa <3

[Anstane]

Personally, I believe that the high difficulty is not really a problem because that's supposed to be the point of a league, to take on the best of each type and to see how well your team fares.

 

I am the type that would rather see how far I can possibly push one team rather then "okay, I lost a few times, time to make some tweaks and restart". I admit I am not one for competitive play and prefer using Mons I like then those that are "top-tier". (Hence why my team has none of the uber-staples like Metagross, Garchomp or Aegislash, instead opting for Swampert and Mamoswine), which makes each victory I do achieve all the more special, knowing it can go up against the best of a certain type and it can come out victorious.

 

I think people should realize that, hey, if you can't seem to defeat a certain leader, that's alright. There are always options for you. Sure, you might not reach the top position, but that's the key of a League: To get as far as you can, even if it's not the very top.

[Cyanna Cyril]

Is the league too hard? Yes and No.

 

The difficulty of the league is fair mostly for those who use Pokemon that are designed to be highly competitive and are adaptable to many different formats and strategies. However, going outside a certain set of "Redemption-Meta" mons basically means you're going to have a bad time. Even if you do win a few, the flexibility of some leaders simply prevents you from advancing further in brackets, and so the difficult really derives in the decision of having an enjoyable team versus a redemption competitive team. Where I think this example is more evident is battles with ICSW, who can't get an equal match from leaders when she's using a delibird and a pykueurakumyyu (or whatever it is). Like, you guys have the time to choose counterpicks to competitive teams, but can't make fun trolly teams where she can still win against them? The league should have be difficult enough later on to prevent anyone from beating the entire challenge so only those who fought well with their teams (*cough* not only those who bring copypasta teams *cough*) win.

 

The other part of the difficulty is I don't believe that you guys have properly defined C-teaming. Yes, I understand your definition, but frankly it's a really poor definition of c-teaming and doesn't necessarily stop it. I bring up the case of Haley. Poor Haley basically has one strat, hail/aurora veil triples. By the current rule of C-teaming, she should have 4 pokemon as a core on this hail team, with only 2 ever being able to be switched out at a time. Yet, if you've watched some of her battles, you can see that she's had more than 3 pokemon difference using the hail/veil strategy. By the current definition, her c-teaming is against the rules. Yet, her dependency on that single strategy and the nature of her counterpicks don't make it c-teaming. And this brings up my argument that c-teaming isn't necessarily about quantity of pokemon switched out, but more about how effective they counter the enemy team, whether shutting down a single mon entirely or shutting down multiple mons entirely. I've heard about an instance of a Mega-lopunny getting protected by a bewear during a high jump kick. I've seen an instance where a gastrodon used icy win to prevent a m-gyarados from successfully setting up d-dances and potentially doing the same to a garchomp, when just as effective of a move doing similar action but not as strong against that team was clear smog. There's even a sigilith that has been used on teams with 4+ physical mons and spreading burns to most of them, when it could have been an offensive set and still be effective without being a significant counter. I really think you guys should revisit what your rules are on c-teaming, because as they are now, leaders who break the rule don't appear to be c-teaming while those who don't break the rule appear to be c-teaming.

 

Finally, I think that the league shouldn't be focused around difficulty, but rather fun. It's not enjoyable to get completely walled be a leader in B2 because you preferred to make a team that you enjoyed rather than a team with metagross, rotom-w, garchomp, etc. So, basically my advice to the league, especially some of the lower leaders, is not necessarily try to act as walls, but rather give us fun matches. Olivia is great at this in my opinion, where despite being difficult, she also is willing to try so many different formats and battle styles where you never know what'll happen until you battle her that day. Haley's good at this too because she uses a diversity of pokemon that don't necessarily counter you, but provide you a challenge that's enjoyable and always winnable. Mira's battles were enjoyable personally, and I'm glad to see she's testing out the waters of doubles and using something as unique as m-banette rather than sableye. And then there's battles against someone like Edgar, who basically chooses a team to use against you and never changes. And some of these teams, you know it's not possible to win without hax, so then it's not even in your control whether you win or lose if his team's 2 picks simply counter + megagross/regencore/SR user counter your team too hard. Difficulty like that should really start around later b3 or b4, because then challengers actually get to play the league with their teams in more than one bracket. Anways this is a lot to read, but basically these are my thoughts. 

Edited March 1, 2017 by Cyanna Cyril
Putting my actual post on the page

[Anime]

Personally, I believe that the high difficulty is not really a problem because that's supposed to be the point of a league, to take on the best of each type and to see how well your team fares.

[Hycrox]

Obligatory reply. Are you happy now Azery?

 

Spoiler

But being serious here the league is pretty well built tbh. The rules are fair, the leaders are lovely and it's not an overly competitive event. It's really enjoyable. The only possible complaint I would make is B3 Edgar that there's not much of a difficulty difference betweem brackets, at leqast not betweem the first three.

 

Edited February 28, 2017 by Hycrox
NOW ARE YOU HAPPY AZERY!?

[pyrromanis]

This League is as easy as @Azeria getting DEEZ NUTS

 

On a more serious tone. The League is as difficult as it should be! It is supposed to be challenging enough to force you use more advanced strategies than usualy but also make it easy to move forward without getting stuck in a specific bracket/leader.

I can understand though why people might find the League difficult or impossible to beat and there's only one reason for it: No adaptation at all! Unlike season 1 where leaders could use whatever the hell they wanted to pretty much counter any challenger if they wished, in season 2 leaders tend to use only one strategy for each format (singles, doubles, triples). And the good thing is, EVERYONE KNOWS THEIR STRATEGY! It's not something that is kept in secret and you learn only after you get stomped by a leader's strategy. There are a bunch of replays to see what leaders use, other challengers can help you learn them or even leaders themselves straight up say what sets they use! So while leaders are supposed to have the upper hand cause they know your team is pretty much balanced out! What people should learn from this league is to adapt to these strategies. From the first week already people realised how good Safety Goggles and Iron Balls are good against Olivia and Mira respectively. That's what you need to do pretty much in all challenges, adapt to a playstyle and use new tactics. And this what makes Redemption hard, it "forces" you to play in way you are not used to or you don't like.
But riding a wave instead of going against it can potentialy be way more fun than you would though!!! I can't describe the joy I had whenever I was preparing my team each time I was facing a new leader! "How can I make my slow Primarina outspeed a Mega Manectric?" "Is a choice item better against this type" "Should I use this gimmicky strategy and watch everyone's reaction :P" I don't know about anyone else, but I am getting really happy whenever I manage to actual pull the strategy I was preparing in my mind! It makes me feel like "maybe I'm not that bad as I though". And while you might say that you are not that of a competitive player but you are playing more casualy, it is still fine! It's not always about winning is also about having fun! And while personally I like to take my battles more seriously cause that's what gives me fun, I have seen dozens of people having fun by interacting with the leaders. Mocking them, cheering them, laughing at their bad/good plays and their nicknames and their accent are all enough good reasons even for casual players to keep getting involved in the League.
In conclusion, Redemption is difficult but not in a level to get frustrated and complain constantly. It's difficult enough to push you become better at battling and thinking! And if you are not searching for anything of those there are dozens of reasons to still hang around and have fun!!!

I might have drifted away from the original subject, but I wanted to give my full thoughts about the league since in my opinion everything the staff members have created, from the rules to organizing the whole League, are related to each other and affects the whole experience of the challengers. May the hax be with you challengers and go kick some leader's *ss!!!
 

Spoiler

DISCLAIMER: I was not bribed, forced or tortured in any way to write this.

@Azeria still succs DEEZ NUTS!!!

 

Edited February 28, 2017 by pyrromanis

[Siragon]

I'd like to say something that wasn't said but seems pyrromanis already expressed all i had to say about the league so.... Meh.

[Shinyrio]

Well, I think I maybe have my word about all this League. I'm, for sure, one of those who are discovering this strange world of Online Leagues for the first time, but a young voice even though I'm 26 is as important as an old, I guess.

 

And here will be the long and unending block of text. Don't read it if you want to live.

 

Is this League hard? Well, I could answer that directly, but let me first tell you a story of mine. The story of that one guy who was curious about the previous Redemption league and was willing to compete on the following. This guy, you might have understood, is me. And why am I competing in the first place? For three reasons : having fun with my favorite hobby, AkA Pokemon (an almost 20 year history, nonetheless), to see where I can go with my favorite style of playing, AkA Balanced (in all things) and... to try to socialize, introducing myself better to this community (I kinda don't post a lot, I guess), and show them who I am!

 

Then the league started. First match, versus Olivia, was... kinda lucky I guess (I was expecting something different with her previous match). Then I was stuck near a wall named Mira. A very kind wall, for sure, but still a wall. It took me no less than 4 close matches to beat her. And meanwhile, I doubted myself about how fun was this league supposed to be. But thanks to some people, and some advices about the league, I could overcome this part and continue.

 

The rest of this league is still this cycle : victories, defeats, preparations, support from others. I had doubts sometimes, but I continued to learn. To observe. To listen... erm, to read. To try (as much as I can) converse with people, with the leaders ( And oh god I start to appreciate some of those. You know, the one I give affectionate nicknames, big up, Lucci and Mr Croc).

 

Why am i telling you that? Because this directs to what I want to tell, what I learned : yes! League is hard. League is MEANT to be hard. But, and that the most paradoxal thing, League is hard if you keep being alone! I think it's because there are some other challengers like me, like you, reader, that league can be suddently easier.

 

YOU'RE NOT ALONE! If you keep trying to understand, and even more from others, then League can be as easy as you can exploit these datas.

 

And for those of you who think this is a paragraph about "Let the others being beaten up while your observing"... I admit this.... aspect is a part of what I'm saying. But this thing alone won't help you much. Sometimes practice is a good way to make sure of where you're heading to. And that's why, sometimes, I'm looking for someone for sparring (with more or less success, due to my social skills being.... not that good ) between matches, and sometimes after a defeat, not only for practice, but also to... ease my pain about the loss and keep moving forward.

 

Well, to conclude, I know this text might be a bit... hard to understand. But it's my actual point of view of what league is : a hard place, sure, but a fun place before all. If you can keep the fun on, well you won't think all the time that league is hard.

 

And for this experience, I have to thank all the people I met in the Showdown chat.  Well, i'm maybe 10 badges now, being one of the 3 frontrunners, but there's still a looooong way to go! I heared some legends about that Venus girl. And, oh boy, this might be interesting to fight her.

 

 

Edited February 28, 2017 by Shinyrio

[DW~]

     Also, on the subject of this league being a challenge or not, there's one thing that I am shocked hasn't been brought up yet, which may be one of the most broken things since Celeste (Who if many of you people do not know, was the champion of S1). Now to shortly describe Celeste before moving on to the main point, she was all kinds of broken pre-nerf? How broken was she that many of you may ask, well she was literally allowed to use pretty much any mon in battle (Out of curiosity who thought that was a good idea at first though? No offense, just asking), some examples of her pre-nerf include: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/reborn-customgame-50674 and http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/reborn-customgame-50481 and she was pretty much unable to be defeated due to completely c-teaming her opponents. Later on, she was nerfed to a monotype of her choice and a legendary of said type,and she was unable to switch sets as well if I recall correctly, and finally Xiri beat her, and then Simon, who then became the 1st league champion since staff couldn't claim the prize or something like that. This, unlike what I'll get to in a second was something that was fixed, and made it so S1 could be beatable, however y'all still haven't learned your lesson in my opinion, if I have to be blunt.      

    

      Now we move on to the main point of this post, which is to talk about what is pretty much Celeste V.2 at the moment, which is to say, the mistake with Celeste was repeated again, and this time probably on accident. What I am talking about is the current Champion, Oliver. Now Flying isn't broken inherently,it's a damn good type, and easily one of the best. But what is truly broken is the add-ons, or what might become add-ons. If I may quote the rules, and I shall, this is stated "The Champion may use any Pokemon that shares a type with their respective Ace Pokemon. Exceptions will be made for Ace Pokemon with only one type. Essentially, the Champion can use two types instead of just one. Additionally, the Champion will be permitted to use one non-Uber Legendary Pokemon on their team.". Now, if you haven't heard yet surprisingly, Oliver's Ace is Staraptor, which is more commonly dubbed "Swagraptor", and it is a dual Normal/Flying type. In the quote described, it pretty much says that he can use any mon from the other type that his ace possesses, in which case for dear ol' Swagraptor over here, is part Normal. Now what does that entail, you may ask? Well Flying is an extremely versatile type, with many options and the like. You know what other type is like that in terms of many options, and also is in one of the higher brackets? Normal. Now what does that tell you anyways, and getting to the point but who thought that combining these two types, which have many options to c-team an opponent and putting them in the hands of a skilled player was a great idea? One prime example of mixing Normal and Flying can be found here http://prnt.sc/ecby2l . Now, aside for the ace, what does that look like to you? To me, it screams a highly possible scenario in which a team of such monstrous stall capabilities could be produced. Now I don't mind stall, as long as it's in moderation, but many despise it and we all know what Evio P2 + Evio Chansey does for Elliot already, and you want to mash that with Gliscor, Mantine, and Skarm??? However, that is not the most broken part about this rule, and while just Normal + Flying is beatable, the second part of this rule states that the Champion is allowed to use any non-Uber Legend on their team. Now we all know Oliver is Flying, correct? Now think of two certain Flying legendaries that can make Oliver even more broken, I'll give you a hint even...

Spoiler

Both of the said legends are in the current OU tier

Do you have an answer to the two legends yet? Regardless if you do or not, I'll tell you. The answers are Lando-T and Celesteela. Lando-T is not broken in it's entirety, it is endowed with the ability Intimidate, which lowers attack by 1 stage, and is an extremely good mon in that tier, but Scarfed Mons with Ice Beam can kill it, especially if it's running it's scarf set or rocky helm set. Celesteela on the other hand is a whole different beast, an ultra one to be precise. Possessing a godly 97/103/101 for defensive stats, this thing can eat attacks like no one's business, but however if you combine that with it's movepool which besides dual stabs, has moves such as EQ, Flamethrower, Leech Seed,Giga Drain, and Stone Edge for coverage or other options coupled with 101/107 for attack and special attack respectively and a way to remedy it's base 61 speed with Autotomize, as well as possessing the ability Beast Boost, which boosts Celesteela's highest stat by one stage for every kill, it is easily the most broken option Oliver can pick for his legendary. Now, with all these options, and Oliver's skill in general, this is pretty difficult to beat, right? Maybe a bit impossible to beat? Well then there's the particular option that might be reconsidered by the staff, which is the fact of giving Oliver Mega Zard X, Mega Gyara, and Mega Alt, 3 megas that were banned in Gen 7 monotype because of a policy change, and add to the gigantic list of options Oliver has currently,and he is made more broken. When this was said before, many people were outraged and said against it but it is still up for debate from what I recall. If Oliver is given all of these options, without any restrictions besides the crummy rule to change mons (which has been broken already as said by Cyanna), then there will be no winners in the end, in all likelyhood. Now if changes are made, maybe people will have a small chance, or a decent one at that to win, but I am afraid those changes will come too late as the mistake becomes apparent (Just like with Megagross). That is all I have to say on the subject and I hope this plea is considered and talked about a bit by the staff. Have a nice day or whatever time it is for you zzzz

[IntSys]

On 2017/2/28 at 7:21 AM, Cyanna Cyril said:

Where I think this example is more evident is battles with ICSW, who can't get an equal match from leaders when she's using a delibird and a pykueurakumyyu (or whatever it is). Like, you guys have the time to choose counterpicks to competitive teams, but can't make fun trolly teams where she can still win against them?

 

Actually, Olivia did make an equally trolly team against ICSW (consisting of "PU" Grass-types, NFEs, and a Serperior without Contrary Leaf Storm). She did win against her in the end, though, so I'm willing to believe that most leaders are willing to scale down their teams to fight on more or less equal grounds.

[Anstane]

49 minutes ago, IntSys said:

 

Actually, Olivia did make an equally trolly team against ICSW (consisting of "PU" Grass-types, NFEs, and a Serperior without Contrary Leaf Storm). She did win against her in the end, though, so I'm willing to believe that most leaders are willing to scale down their teams to fight on more or less equal grounds.

Well, some of them. Edgar, for instance, explicitly said "I will not be holding back".

[Deleted User]

@TheDW66

 

I'm not sure if this was conveyed properly, but once the Champion picks their legendary Pokemon, they are not allowed to change that mon so long as they remain the Champion. It's not as if Oliver can freely switch between them. Secondly, the use of the legendary pokemon is something we will be monitoring fortnightly. Should it prove to be overwhelming, we may alter things. That said, it's a non uber legendary, so realistically the mon they pick isn't going to be much better than anything else they have access to. The Dual Typing scenario is much less up for discussion. The champion needs to be inherently more difficult than the other leaders. Also, just like all the other leaders, the champion is going to be limited to how much they are allowed to change their team and strategy from match to match.

[pyrromanis]

Imo we shouldn't be discussing Oliver's difficulty at moment. While yes, his options can be very strong, we all know he might just come in the battle with Swagraptor and 5 Bug/Flyings if he wanted! Let's see first what he opts to choose for his team and then discuss for potential balance of his options...

[Guzam]

"http://prnt.sc/ecby2l"

 

?

 

Pretty sure this is super easy to beat tbh. Any of the porygon2's in this league + a move change token (or maybe not one if you already have it) = Ice beam + Tbolt + Toxic + Recover P2, something pretty capable of taking on that entire team. Mega meta also has quite the advantage against that team once mantine/gliscor/skarm or gone, all depending on your coverage. Alola-Ninetales can pick off anything not named chansey or P2 and also sets up veil to bulk any attacks oliver could even think of using. Garchomp, another common mon, can easily set up rocks, EQ the normal types, Fire blast skarm, rock slide mantine if it has that, or SD. Stall isn't an unbeatable, god-like strat. Plenty of the things being run in league can break through it, and anyone who's made it to the top likely has a move change token or too, making things even easier for them if they find out Olivers legendary.

 

"Oh jeez, look at this scary team i just made!!!!!"

 

 

 

[Cobalt996]

I fail to see the point in this thread, for the most part, since a good chunk of the replies are more or less "It's hard because it's supposed to be hard.  Why is it supposed to be hard? Because it's hard. That must mean it's supposed to be hard, so it being hard is perfect," which doesn't answer the question posed by Azery in the first post.

 

Some replies actually provide feedback and insight, though.  And then we get stuff like the post above mine that, again, make me wonder why this thread even exists.  If you (Redemption) ask for feedback, and then just say "well, you're wrong" to negative feedback and future worries, why are you asking for it in the first place?  Might be a better idea to get together and discuss the feedback, then reach a (relative) consensus on the response to it, rather than sounding hypocritical.

 

And, so as to not make myself a hypocrite, I suppose I will need to give my feedback:  Most of the lower-bracket difficulty is team-based for the challengers; if your team can't deal with the type, it will not work very well.  If your team is neutral or better, you'll win, almost for free.  In other words, there's very little strategy, since it's basically saying "Okay, [leader] will do this strategy in this format, so just CTeam them and win, or get hax and lose anyway, but that's Pokemon." This is due to there being a ton of challengers, many of whom watch each-other's battles. I don't bother with watching other people's matches in the higher brackets yet, since I'm generally busy with life, so I can't provide any form of accurate feedback on them.  I suppose I'll side myself with Pyrro's feedback toward the upper tiers for the time being.

[Personthing]

6 hours ago, Guzam said:

"http://prnt.sc/ecby2l"

 

?

 

Pretty sure this is super easy to beat tbh. Any of the porygon2's in this league + a move change token (or maybe not one if you already have it) = Ice beam + Tbolt + Toxic + Recover P2, something pretty capable of taking on that entire team. Mega meta also has quite the advantage against that team once mantine/gliscor/skarm or gone, all depending on your coverage. Alola-Ninetales can pick off anything not named chansey or P2 and also sets up veil to bulk any attacks oliver could even think of using. Garchomp, another common mon, can easily set up rocks, EQ the normal types, Fire blast skarm, rock slide mantine if it has that, or SD. Stall isn't an unbeatable, god-like strat. Plenty of the things being run in league can break through it, and anyone who's made it to the top likely has a move change token or too, making things even easier for them if they find out Olivers legendary.

 

"Oh jeez, look at this scary team i just made!!!!!"

 

 

 

 

I see your point but your tone honestly doesn't help at all, man.

 

Trying to make the point, in a more well, clear way, Normal Flying stall should Oliver decide to run it isn't invincible. It's vulnerable to physical wall breakers like Tyranitar (landorus-therian can only switch into it twice), or outside of Chansey can generally be beaten by the very common Porygon2 if it runs toxic + bolt beam coverage. That being said we will moderate Oliver and will react accordingly if he ends up being too much.

Edited March 1, 2017 by Personthing