Reliving Previous Generations

[NickCrash]

It's only a month before a wild Gen7 appears and officially startles the waters, and pokemon for 20 whole years has become part of our lives. For some of us, who are around 20, it was a significant part of our childhood. We grew up watching the cartoon, playing the game, or even buying the trading cards. I personally went out of my way, saved some money and bought a Trading Card cartridge because other children my age never were that interested, and given our lack of knowledge of the English language back then, non-hardcore fans of the franchise hardly bothered. In fact I'm still struggling to find girls interested in the game, but that may be due to the device being labeled as "Game BOY" thus alienating them.

Ahem! Anyway, after a while we all more or less wanted the extra challenge and discovered the competitive feature. Back then, sure we were Australo-apes whose go-to motion was "Drop EQ every day, ba dum dum -insert Snoop Dogg song here- ". Then the game was improved with COLOUR, natures, split evolutions, revised and re-revised type charts, physical and special splits, and lot's of other features that ended up to the way it is now. As we move forward, fields will become more prominent, perhaps special moves with double types will also dominate the game, and cute as well as broken stuff will come and hopefully disappear after their debut.

But I'll ask you to hold on a second and before jumping into the hype bandwagon of the new generation, to appreciate what's come before it. This thread is a sanctuary for people who want to relive and discuss about previous gens, as if nothing ever changed. Naturally, we won't become Genwunners or GenFOUR-SHO but here is the place to discuss and openly debate on strategies viable in the previous generations. This is a place of respect to those metagames.

Now, for completion's sake, we can talk about any generation, but I doubt there is high demand for Gen2,3 as they were not the big icons. If anyone is interested, they should not hesitate. I just don't believe many people were so deep into the game back then. Gen1 gets special treatment because of how broken the game was back then, and how hillarious-ly effective certain tactics are. So for everyone still interested in delving back into the magic of the old days, when still children we were amazed by the game, this is the place for you.

[NickCrash]

Subject of the Day = Gen4

Everywhere you looked back then, there was Metagross, Snorlax and Salamence. What kinds of strategy did you employ back then? If you had any special movesets or EV spreads, feel free to share.

We might make a tourney around that so it's good to prepare as many as possible.

[Ironbound]

[thoughtprocessP06102016-567234.exe]

Input Head: NickCrash

Positives: Steel Type Aficionado, Healthy Gen4 Respect, Intelligent analyst

Negatives: Cat person

Analysis: Positives outweigh negatives by a margin of 4.62%

Conclusion: Friend, Tier-III.

Filed away u/H-2, Column 56-B, Short Term Memory. Open-ended, pending further revisions in future.

Err-hem, yes, chiming back in, glad this came to be. I'm glad that my suggestion in the Tier Discussion thread materialized so nicely, and for that I thank you. I'm also more than pleased to participate in any discussion involving the best meta ever Gen4.

For now, I'm going to save the long recollection of my gen4 experiences for later, but I'll touch on the last part of the gen4 timeline: Post-Platinum, after the exit of Garchomp, Salamence and the re-exit of Latias. The prominent part of this meta was the rise of Flygon and the resurgence of Stall as an intelligent and viable style of play.

Reserving a talk about Obistall and other gen4 stall and semi-stall metagame elements.

[Noir]

Stall as an intelligent and viable style of play

._.

I guess gen 4 stall wasn't that bad, but I really wish to disagree with this statement. Viable, yes. Intelligent? No, at least not with how stall has evolved into, and not back then either. Stall won't prove you're intelligent in Pokemon at all, at least not as much as offense/balance does due to how stagnant the playstyle is. It's also one of the playstyles that heavily hinges on luck sometimes (*cough* para hax/misses *cough*) more so than it affects any other playstyle. Even then, Smogon's basis for bans and stuff are also heavily stall-favored, but I'll try not get too deep into this because it invites arguments sometimes.

Of course and with all due respect, do take my words with a grain of salt since you know I am very anti-stall in general. Playing it is fine; the fact that you called it an intelligent style of play, even in Gen 4, heavily irks me though.

Anyways, I'll reserve a talk about HO and weather play back in Gen 5 OU (when this thread gets to it) arguably the biggest power spike in Pokemon history, back when Deoxys-S and stuff were still in OU, Genesect/Torny-T dominance period before they got the hammer, to what it has settled down into. One thing's for sure though -- Politoed did massive things to OU at that time that I'm admittedly not the happiest about. This is all for later, though. and I'll drop stuff about gen 4 HO as well when I got the time.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Noir

[Ironbound]

Remember Rule 5, Noir.

I stand by my earlier view that stall in gen4 was certainly an intelligent and viable playstyle. I have nothing against your opinions, which of course are yours and no concern of mine in the ordinary course of this discussion. For the record, there's no need to attack my opinion about stall, because it isn't an opinion; it's a statement, and I tend to keep personal biases outside of my statements (unlike your case, wherein your statement against a playstyle's effectiveness and groundwork is driven by personal opinion) when presenting what is essentially a critical analysis. I myself dislike stall, despite using it in gen4 (which choice, again, as a professional competitive player, is wholly separate from my private sentiments, and forms but a part of the wide range of tactics one would use in the course of one's competitive career in order to gain insight into the workings of different playstyles) and so I stand by you personally w.r.t stall as an attitude. And yet, as a presenter of an analysis, I would ask you to base your criticism objectively and with reference to the context. Your assertions may arise from personal experience but must not ideally be based on personal biases or tastes. No 'arguments' would be invited, as you suggest, should all parties involved conduct themselves with the true spirit of analysis. And while we're at it, we can do without acerbity in our expression.

To return to my statement, let us briefly examine the Gen4 Timeline. DP started the meta, and for a considerable time, the meta revolved around Garchomp, Lucario, Infernape and heavy hitters of a similar nature. Platinum, unlike what newer players might imagine, was a sea change, bringing with it Tutor moves to old favourites and expanding the horizons of many previously mediocre Pokemon. It was Platinum that brought about Bullet Punch Scizor (a timeless classic), the Rotom Formes (though they were all ghost type then), Dragon Dance + Outrage Salamence (putting Dragonite in the grave, unfortunately) and the like. HGSS brought even more to the table, such as Synthesis access to many grass types, Bug Bite to augment Scizor further (cementing it as the number one OU Pokemon), Bounce to Gyarados and Extreme Speed to Dragonite to give it a second lease on life in Salamence's shadow. During this time, Garchomp, that perfect Pokemon, was quick to be elevated to Ubers along with Deoxys. With the departure of those two, HO lost some of its prime lustre, and sand teams found Flygon as an acceptable alternative. The trial of Latias in OU marked the rise of sand balance (and fat sand in general) and its eventual departure along with that of Salamence left the field finally open to arguably the maximum creativity ever witnessed in OU play.

My assertion is placed definitively in the post-salamence era, when the departure of some of the most centralising Pokemon in the meta allowed experimentation with the underdogs, that could now see a new chance to shine. Yanmega, Lead Roserade and Flygon benefitwd greatly, and Stall and Semi-Stall/Balance as a style grew in viability...and in creafivity.

For late Gen4 was indeed open to the most diverse team spreads I have ever seen in my experience of Pokemon play. The lack of team preview only made the chance element greater, and therefore made building more challenging as well as more fun with all the anticipation and preparation necessary to handle a surprise Specs Yanmega or Rain Dance Kingdra. Stall in particular was renewed, in part due to the removal of the terrifying Mixmence, and in part due to the more or less level field which allowed the domination of defensive steel+water cores. Such Pokemon as Hippowdon, Blissey and Bronzong remained staples for the most part, but novations such as Tentacruel, Milotic, LeechSeed Roserade, Spiritomb, Dusknoir etc became possible. Stall indeed required intelligent building and play, not merely because the number of threats to prepare for was so large, or because the lack of team preview meant extreme caution, but especially because of the inherent cautiousness and prediction that stall necessitated. It would not do to allow team members to die off when the opponent could spring a surprise MixRachi and flinch your Blissey to death and Grass Knot away the Hippowdon. Hence the rise of Obi stall (as pioneered by that person), which took into account the use of unconventional Pokemon and tactics to make stall more than a playstyle, but an archetype of creative integrity, designed to withstand almost anything that gen4 could throw, barring hax. (And Hax, I should remind you, is pervasive and not exclusive to stall. I do not support your claim that stall relies on hax; the crux of Gen4 stall is that does not do so; though Scaldspam of later generations might cultivate that premature conception about stall as a playstyle. Besides, no properly crafted archetype should rely on chance unless it is genuinely abusable, as is the case with Serene Grace--which, in fact, is used by offensive and not defensive positions as a rule.)

This is unlike stall in later generations, which, alas, became infested with eviolite and pink blobs in general (and also again centralised the scope of stall to be limited to just those few mons that could stomach the massive power creep, making Semi-Stall and balance narrower and creativity in diversity far lessened). It is true that some claim of it devolving into nothing more than switching to the appropriate textbook counters and sponging hits (a state of affairs that is alas deplorable), but that is also owing to the fact that new Pokemon offensive monsters of later generations restricted not just the scope but the very viability of stall.

In continuation of this, I shall discuss the construction of gen4 stall and defensive teambuilding in general in my next sequence.

[NickCrash]

As Gen4 stall does not seem a very widely known or liked topic, we shall move on to the weather wars of Gen5.

AS you all know, every new generation brought something new to the meta. However, we all felt we backtracked a bit in Gen5 because everything was focused on beating the other team's weather. Naturally GameFreak opted for diversity in their games, including using anything in your arsenal to win the game. However, the permanent weather mechanic made it certain that Sun and Rain and Sand were fighting over whose weather boosted sweepers would dominate. From teams with Ninetales or Politoed, to the sand combo of Hippowdon and Tyranitar, weather was everywhere and boosted both HO and stall teams alike. Pokemon like Mandibuzz were OU because of their nice niche with sand, while others like Excadrill were deemed too powerful to be let loose. Thus weirdos like Sandslash and Venusaur appeared for a while, whereas others like the generic defensive pokemon had less usage on the field.

Then Gen6 changed the rules of the game, balancing weather and introducing fields (so to speak), Mega evolutions and a greater distribution of Knock Off and Defog, both helping and harming regular weather inducers, who in fact bar sand became less used, or used in mixed weather teams.

1. Do you believe that the weather wars of Gen5 were better or worse than the current situaton in Gen6?
2. Would you be interested in a tier in which Gen5 rules apply, yet all pokemon from Gen6 (and onwards?) are included?
3. What's your view on the current state of weather teams?
4. Which pokemon did you use or think could be useful for a weather team both in Gen5 and Gen6?
5. Do you like my hair?
6. Do you believe the Aegislash or Deoxys bans could be removed if permanent weather was in place?

[Ironbound]

Sorry about dropping the gwn4 stall topic. Truth be told, I'm rather weighed down by a lot of things and exams and whatnot so it cleanly slipped my mind. I don't like gen5 as a whole when it came to competitive OU because the weather wars ruined it for me, but if you will, I'll continue where I left off last time and talk a bit about Obistall a d gen4 stall in general.

Er-hem, now then. [QUALIFIER: the following assumes we're talking about gen4 stall only. See my previous post for the difference between stall then and stall now]

It's a common notion that defensive playing is thought of as something horrible. It's seen as a brain-dead, skilless way of sponging hits and accomplishing nothing at all. That, in my view, is a pity, since defensive play has its own strength. This principally was due to the fact that early on (REMEMBER: No team preview back in gen4) players have limited information about each other's teams, and therefore their prediction or strategic planning was limited to guesswork. A wrong guess with an offensive team spells a quick defeat, whereas defensive teams have more flexibility in that regard; they are more forgiving of errors and can be better used even when taking unforseen circumstances into consideration; in other words, defensive play makes the game stretch out a little longer so you can maximize the portion of each play that is prediction as opposed to unfounded guessing.

Contrary to popular notions, there is a considerable level of prediction involved in using a stall team. This is especially true in the case of stall vs. offensive teams (at least as long as the stall team is good; If the team in question is just a bunch of fat Pokemon who just sponge and do nothing else, like how teams of later generations have transpired, then yes, prediction is nigh on useless. However, when passive tactics such as Hazard Stack and residual inflictions are involved, prediction is key to net as many opportunities as possible to do so. There is where the true elements of caution and precaution feature; and there is where defensive teams cannot afford to lose their members. One can even argue that the need to anticipate and ably preserve such elements is more reliant on accuracy in prediction and planning than organising tactics with a fully offensive team.

As for the other scenario of stall vs. stall, it is true that prediction, that is to say, anticipation of the members of the opponent's team and their behaviour, is minimized. However, properly constructed stall vs. stall is probably the highest form of long-term thinking. There's a need to think several turns ahead to be able to do any lasting damage to the opposition, otherwise the match will wear on, as is popularly belived, into a deathly bore where one team is worn down no quicker than the other.

Then there's the aspect of pre-battle skill, not merely in-battle skill. Pre-battle skill refers to the art of teambuilding, which is even more crucial to stall teams, wherein it is necessary to have an answer for every kind of anticipated threat. Here is where Obistall comes in.

Obistall, as the stall team made by Obi, an old smogon doyen famous for crafting stall's popularity is called, is perhaps the most celebrated of all teams in the DPP generation. Pre-Platinum, it was hard to make a successful stall team without reducing it to Obistall, whereas post-platinum and post-salamence, this team and it's variants were the best or most perfect example of holistic stall. The team was especially responsible for Tentacruel's rise from the UU Tier to OU usage, as people discovered its niche in the metagame. The huge amount of thought and effort put into the team is apparent in the inspection of every choice made. This team combines all of the elements needed to create a "full" Stall team, and acts as an excellent example to illustrate the epitome of gen4 stall.

I will not repeat what has already been described fully, by the creator himself, so I'll link the team itself here, and leave the floor open to discussion and criticism. In my next post, I'll talk about a variant of Obistall that I have decided to be of good use when tested out in DPPt now.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stall-team.47785/

[DemICE]

Gen 4 was when I first touched showdown. Weather was a must those days so I made a hail team, since I love underused stuff, and glaceon.

If I recall, I had aboma-san, stallrein, my fav glaceon, rotom-fridge , claydol with trick room for glacey to sweep, obligatory froslass

And despite having 4 ice types it worked decently and was fun.

Still playing showdown, but that was my fav team and my fav generation and I can't have it anymore